it hertz to be wrong

[harrry]

The above is the danger of buying electrical appliances on the net, particularly from US based companies.

There are numerous threads on Thaivisa by our friends from across the pond who have seen the Thai (220V) outlet and plugged in a US (115V) appliance resulting in smoke and tears.

BTW the Philippines also has US style outlets and is 220V but 60Hz, I believe the only country that has the 220V 60Hz standard.

It is a holdout then. Australia and quite a few countries used 60hz for many years however about 20 years ago they changed everything to the internationally more accepted 50hz. That was about the same time as they dropped the voltage gfrom 250/260 to 230/240.

It was probabl about the same time as they upped the price for giving you less.

Australia changed to 60hz about 20 years ago?

Are you sure about that?

When I did my electrical apprenticeship ('84 - '87), we were taught that domestic/industrial Australian supply was 240/415VAC at 50 Hz.

To go back, even further, our Sanyo colour television, purchased in time to watch the 1976 Montreal Olympic Games, has a label on the back, "240VAC, 50Hz". I am 100% positive that we didn't plug it into a 250/260V, 60Hz socket or we wouldn't have had a house full of kids watching Bugs Bunny and The Road Runner, in colour.

Yes, I agree. As a teenager in the 60's I clearly recall 240v was the standard.

It "MAY" have been 260v in the past, but I doubt it. If so it was much longer than 20 years ago.

n 2000, Australia converted to 230 V as the nominal standard with a tolerance of +10%/−6%.,^[10] this superseding the old 240 V standard, AS2926-1987.^[11] As in the UK, 240 V is within the allowable limits and "240 volt" is a synonym for mains in Australian and British English. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity

note also

Prior to this, AS2926 applied the same voltage range in Australia as the UK: 240/415 V ±6%. When the 230/400 V compromise was reached, it was decided to widen the voltage tolerance such that all existing tolerances would be included. Accordingly, the standard became 230/400 V ±10%

and

Accordingly, despite the existence of AS60038, a DNSP can elect to declare its nominal voltage as being 240 V and state that the voltage range is 240 V±10% (216-264 V). Some states regulate the low voltage, while others allow DNSPs to make their own declaration of voltage. http://www.electricalsolutions.net.au/content/business-and-management/article/is-it-time-to-genuinely-adopt-23-v-as-our-distribution-voltage--25053451

I agree 20 years ago is a bit short but as you get older years shorten and 40 years can seem like 20.

You will see that the range in Australia now can top at 264V

Currently the voltage applied at the transformer is 250 volts assuming that there will be drops between it and the customer due to load and distance but low load and short distance can occur.

When I sat in classrooms at the School of Signals I remember it being stressed that the voltage at transformers in Australia was at the top end of the range to allow for the long distribution. Most were round 260v. (sorry it is more than 20 years ago I did not sleep through those lectures...more like 50)

THe thing is Australia has dropped its effective voltage to help with inernationalisation but as the second source quoted indicates it still has a problem with decreased component life due to voltages being at the top to the range.

[Stray]

The above is the danger of buying electrical appliances on the net, particularly from US based companies.

There are numerous threads on Thaivisa by our friends from across the pond who have seen the Thai (220V) outlet and plugged in a US (115V) appliance resulting in smoke and tears.

BTW the Philippines also has US style outlets and is 220V but 60Hz, I believe the only country that has the 220V 60Hz standard.

It is a holdout then. Australia and quite a few countries used 60hz for many years however about 20 years ago they changed everything to the internationally more accepted 50hz. That was about the same time as they dropped the voltage gfrom 250/260 to 230/240.

It was probabl about the same time as they upped the price for giving you less.

Australia changed to 60hz about 20 years ago?

Are you sure about that?

When I did my electrical apprenticeship ('84 - '87), we were taught that domestic/industrial Australian supply was 240/415VAC at 50 Hz.

To go back, even further, our Sanyo colour television, purchased in time to watch the 1976 Montreal Olympic Games, has a label on the back, "240VAC, 50Hz". I am 100% positive that we didn't plug it into a 250/260V, 60Hz socket or we wouldn't have had a house full of kids watching Bugs Bunny and The Road Runner, in colour.

You read wrong, Australia changed to 50Hz

No, I didn't read wrong. I typed it wrong!

What I meant to say was, "Australia changed from 60Hz about 20 years ago?"

My point being, if you could have taken the time to read the rest of my post, is that Australia was already supplied with power at 50Hz more than 20 years ago!

The fact is, Australia utilised the 40Hz system. The last state to convert from 40Hz, to 50Hz, was Western Australia, in 1958.

[Stray]

It is a holdout then. Australia and quite a few countries used 60hz for many years however about 20 years ago they changed everything to the internationally more accepted 50hz. That was about the same time as they dropped the voltage gfrom 250/260 to 230/240.

It was probabl about the same time as they upped the price for giving you less.

Australia changed to 60hz about 20 years ago?

Are you sure about that?

When I did my electrical apprenticeship ('84 - '87), we were taught that domestic/industrial Australian supply was 240/415VAC at 50 Hz.

To go back, even further, our Sanyo colour television, purchased in time to watch the 1976 Montreal Olympic Games, has a label on the back, "240VAC, 50Hz". I am 100% positive that we didn't plug it into a 250/260V, 60Hz socket or we wouldn't have had a house full of kids watching Bugs Bunny and The Road Runner, in colour.

Yes, I agree. As a teenager in the 60's I clearly recall 240v was the standard.

It "MAY" have been 260v in the past, but I doubt it. If so it was much longer than 20 years ago.

n 2000, Australia converted to 230 V as the nominal standard with a tolerance of +10%/−6%.,^[10] this superseding the old 240 V standard, AS2926-1987.^[11] As in the UK, 240 V is within the allowable limits and "240 volt" is a synonym for mains in Australian and British English. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity

note also

Prior to this, AS2926 applied the same voltage range in Australia as the UK: 240/415 V ±6%. When the 230/400 V compromise was reached, it was decided to widen the voltage tolerance such that all existing tolerances would be included. Accordingly, the standard became 230/400 V ±10%

and

Accordingly, despite the existence of AS60038, a DNSP can elect to declare its nominal voltage as being 240 V and state that the voltage range is 240 V±10% (216-264 V). Some states regulate the low voltage, while others allow DNSPs to make their own declaration of voltage. http://www.electricalsolutions.net.au/content/business-and-management/article/is-it-time-to-genuinely-adopt-23-v-as-our-distribution-voltage--25053451

I agree 20 years ago is a bit short but as you get older years shorten and 40 years can seem like 20.

You will see that the range in Australia now can top at 264V

Currently the voltage applied at the transformer is 250 volts assuming that there will be drops between it and the customer due to load and distance but low load and short distance can occur.

When I sat in classrooms at the School of Signals I remember it being stressed that the voltage at transformers in Australia was at the top end of the range to allow for the long distribution. Most were round 260v. (sorry it is more than 20 years ago I did not sleep through those lectures...more like 50)

THe thing is Australia has dropped its effective voltage to help with inernationalisation but as the second source quoted indicates it still has a problem with decreased component life due to voltages being at the top to the range.

Harry, as you state, the variation in those voltages (stated) is not a problem. But the differences between the frequencies is.

For the OP, as a (very) general rule of thumb, for consumer supplies, 110/120VAC is at 60Hz. 220/240VAC is at 50Hz.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Stray

[Stray]

By the way, when you work on the electric, please note: putting your fingers into 110 Volt is most of the time harmless....OK, you can still kill yourself but most of the time you survive.

220 is way more dangerous......More likely to kill you.

The 3 phase version which you may have in your house has 380-400 Volt and it is a real killer..

It's the current you've got to watch out for, not the voltage.

Anyone who tells you that it's okay to stick your fingers into any sort of electrical outlet is seriously taking the piss. They also won't be paying your laundry/medical/funeral expenses.

While skin does have some resistance to electrical current, perspiration will ensure that resistance is very low.

Three phase being supplied within the house/condo? Must be some house! Can I go 'round and plug an extension lead in for my industrial welder? Anyway, don't worry about three phase sockets. You'd be flat out trying to plug your single phase appliances into one of those.

I have 3 phase installed in my house.

May I ask what is the purpose of having 3 phase installed in your house, in Thailand?

[wayned]

High electrical load. For example a big house with many air conditioners, water heaters and other appliances such as power tools.

[Naam]

By the way, when you work on the electric, please note: putting your fingers into 110 Volt is most of the time harmless....OK, you can still kill yourself but most of the time you survive.

220 is way more dangerous......More likely to kill you.

The 3 phase version which you may have in your house has 380-400 Volt and it is a real killer..

It's the current you've got to watch out for, not the voltage.

Anyone who tells you that it's okay to stick your fingers into any sort of electrical outlet is seriously taking the piss. They also won't be paying your laundry/medical/funeral expenses.

While skin does have some resistance to electrical current, perspiration will ensure that resistance is very low.

Three phase being supplied within the house/condo? Must be some house! Can I go 'round and plug an extension lead in for my industrial welder? Anyway, don't worry about three phase sockets. You'd be flat out trying to plug your single phase appliances into one of those.

three-phase connections are not necessarily for "some house". in my home country Germany all homes (no matter what size) built after 1972 (not sure about the year) are supplied with 220/380 and the same applies to my house in Thailand because the potential max load of just my aircons is ~170 amps. and i am talking of running not starting amps.

and YES! you can come and plug in a three-phase extension cord in the one 3-ph socket i installed in case it will be needed in future.

[Stray]

Hmmm . . . might be time some of the Thailand dwellers considered alternatives to their requirements for such enormous amounts of power in their houses.

Hot water power requirements can be greatly reduced by installing solar systems (piping on the roof which is heated by the sun) and using gas back-up (or electrical back-up, if you wish).

Air-conditioning can be reduced by the installation of ceiling insulation, window insulation, wall insulation, ventilation systems etc. (all are readily available in Thailand, even in the remote regions).

As for excessive power tools, are all of these power tools in use at the one time? Are you talking about a house or a quiet, little commercial venture being conducted in the back garage?

I live on a farm which has three houses, a shop (which constantly runs four commercial refrigerators, an ice-cream fridge, a deep freeze, lighting and a small internet café) and a workshop/garage. Thirteen people live on the property and we only have a single phase power supply. That is why I am very surprised that other people, living in Thailand, have the need for a three-phase supply to their domestic dwelling.

In response to Naam's offer, thanks but I would really like to avoid running an extension lead from Germany, to Thailand. That would be silly. At any rate, I don't have need for your three-phase outlet in Thailand as my three-phase welder was donated to a workshop in the village (I have nowhere to plug it in, at my place), in return for lower rates on repairs to farm equipment.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Stray

[Stray]

By the way, when you work on the electric, please note: putting your fingers into 110 Volt is most of the time harmless....OK, you can still kill yourself but most of the time you survive.

220 is way more dangerous......More likely to kill you.

The 3 phase version which you may have in your house has 380-400 Volt and it is a real killer..

It's the current you've got to watch out for, not the voltage.

Anyone who tells you that it's okay to stick your fingers into any sort of electrical outlet is seriously taking the piss. They also won't be paying your laundry/medical/funeral expenses.

While skin does have some resistance to electrical current, perspiration will ensure that resistance is very low.

Three phase being supplied within the house/condo? Must be some house! Can I go 'round and plug an extension lead in for my industrial welder? Anyway, don't worry about three phase sockets. You'd be flat out trying to plug your single phase appliances into one of those.

three-phase connections are not necessarily for "some house". in my home country Germany all homes (no matter what size) built after 1972 (not sure about the year) are supplied with 220/380 and the same applies to my house in Thailand because the potential max load of just my aircons is ~170 amps. and i am talking of running not starting amps.

and YES! you can come and plug in a three-phase extension cord in the one 3-ph socket i installed in case it will be needed in future.

170 amp!!! That is some serious load for a 'house'.

To put things into perspective. A typical, low voltage (230VAC, 50Hz), single phase supply to a house in Australia, is 100 amp. (Three phase (415VAC, 50Hz) is also available to non-commercial dwellings and is rated at 63 amp.) This is for a standard, non-commercial, dwelling. Higher loads can be supplied but, first, the supply company must determine if the local distribution network can handle such a high load.

[Naam]

Hmmm . . . might be time some of the Thailand dwellers considered alternatives to their requirements for such enormous amounts of power in their houses.

Hot water power requirements can be greatly reduced by installing solar systems (piping on the roof which is heated by the sun) and using gas back-up (or electrical back-up, if you wish).

Air-conditioning can be reduced by the installation of ceiling insulation, window insulation, wall insulation, ventilation systems etc. (all are readily available in Thailand, even in the remote regions).

As for excessive power tools, are all of these power tools in use at the one time? Are you talking about a house or a quiet, little commercial venture being conducted in the back garage?

I live on a farm which has three houses, a shop (which constantly runs four commercial refrigerators, an ice-cream fridge, a deep freeze, lighting and a small internet café) and a workshop/garage. Thirteen people live on the property and we only have a single phase power supply. That is why I am very surprised that other people, living in Thailand, have the need for a three-phase supply to their domestic dwelling.

In response to Naam's offer, thanks but I would really like to avoid running an extension lead from Germany, to Thailand. That would be silly. At any rate, I don't have need for your three-phase outlet in Thailand as my three-phase welder was donated to a workshop in the village (I have nowhere to plug it in, at my place), in return for lower rates on repairs to farm equipment.

in return i humbly would like to mention that my 3-phase socket is installed in our house in Thailand.

i also would like to thank you for the valuable advice

installation of ceiling insulation, window insulation, wall insulation, ventilation systems etc. (all are readily available in Thailand, even in the remote regions).

i had no idea that these things are available in Thailand and when i asked my wife "why don't we have all these power saving devices her answer was "were you after the Portwine bottle again behind my back?"

[Naam]

170 amp!!! That is some serious load for a 'house'.

To put things into perspective. A typical, low voltage (230VAC, 50Hz), single phase supply to a house in Australia, is 100 amp.

to put things into perspective... the "serious" 170 amps i mentioned is the load of the aircons. not considered are pool pump, waterfall pumps, irrigation pump, deepwell pump, housewater supply pumps, washer, dryer, cooking, lighting, TVs, PCs and a bunch of other electric and electonic gadgets.

and now dear Sir, i humbly beg of you to stop boring me to death with typical Australian homes or the details of the wilderness where you live now

[Stray]

Hmmm . . . might be time some of the Thailand dwellers considered alternatives to their requirements for such enormous amounts of power in their houses.

Hot water power requirements can be greatly reduced by installing solar systems (piping on the roof which is heated by the sun) and using gas back-up (or electrical back-up, if you wish).

Air-conditioning can be reduced by the installation of ceiling insulation, window insulation, wall insulation, ventilation systems etc. (all are readily available in Thailand, even in the remote regions).

As for excessive power tools, are all of these power tools in use at the one time? Are you talking about a house or a quiet, little commercial venture being conducted in the back garage?

I live on a farm which has three houses, a shop (which constantly runs four commercial refrigerators, an ice-cream fridge, a deep freeze, lighting and a small internet café) and a workshop/garage. Thirteen people live on the property and we only have a single phase power supply. That is why I am very surprised that other people, living in Thailand, have the need for a three-phase supply to their domestic dwelling.

In response to Naam's offer, thanks but I would really like to avoid running an extension lead from Germany, to Thailand. That would be silly. At any rate, I don't have need for your three-phase outlet in Thailand as my three-phase welder was donated to a workshop in the village (I have nowhere to plug it in, at my place), in return for lower rates on repairs to farm equipment.

in return i humbly would like to mention that my 3-phase socket is installed in our house in Thailand.

i also would like to thank you for the valuable advice

installation of ceiling insulation, window insulation, wall insulation, ventilation systems etc. (all are readily available in Thailand, even in the remote regions).

i had no idea that these things are available in Thailand and when i asked my wife "why don't we have all these power saving devices her answer was "were you after the Portwine bottle again behind my back?"

I'm well aware that you also mentioned that a three-phase socket is installed in your home in Thailand. I mention this in my post.

Try a hardware store for the insulating materials. Global Home is a good, one-stop shop.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Stray

[Stray]

170 amp!!! That is some serious load for a 'house'.

To put things into perspective. A typical, low voltage (230VAC, 50Hz), single phase supply to a house in Australia, is 100 amp.

to put things into perspective... the "serious" 170 amps i mentioned is the load of the aircons. not considered are pool pump, waterfall pumps, irrigation pump, deepwell pump, housewater supply pumps, washer, dryer, cooking, lighting, TVs, PCs and a bunch of other electric and electonic gadgets.

and now dear Sir, i humbly beg of you to stop boring me to death with typical Australian homes or the details of the wilderness where you live now

Try looking up how to calculate maximum demand and, while you are at it, look at what size cabling you would need to power a factory that required a 170 amp, three-phase load.

If you don't like reading what I have to say, don't post nonsense in topics you have no understanding of

Edited September 16, 2015 by Stray

[harrry]

170 amp!!! That is some serious load for a 'house'.

To put things into perspective. A typical, low voltage (230VAC, 50Hz), single phase supply to a house in Australia, is 100 amp.

to put things into perspective... the "serious" 170 amps i mentioned is the load of the aircons. not considered are pool pump, waterfall pumps, irrigation pump, deepwell pump, housewater supply pumps, washer, dryer, cooking, lighting, TVs, PCs and a bunch of other electric and electonic gadgets.

and now dear Sir, i humbly beg of you to stop boring me to death with typical Australian homes or the details of the wilderness where you live now

Try looking up how to calculate maximum demand and, while you are at it, look at what size cabling you would need to power a factory that required a 170 amp, three-phase load.

If you don't like reading what I have to say, don't post nonsense in topics you have no understanding of

I think you may find that the person you say has no undestanding is the peson on this forum who has the most understanding of electricity so it show your ignorance less if you did not acuse others.

[bankruatsteve]

Jeez. Please go to another forum if you all need to have a pissing contest.

[Naam]

it hertz to make stupid mistakes by shooting from the hip. the 170a i mentioned is the theoretical max load of all consuming gadgets which is highly unlikely to happen. but in case of a power cut the starting amps can easily reach 120a when power comes back. starting amps of all aircons = ~95a. starting amps of all pumps = 24a.

[Stray]

Shooting from the hip? No, I was basing my responses on the little bits of information that you were dealing out.

But, putting the personal sniping aside.

Now, we get to the crux of it.

The supply to your house is not based on some 'theoretical maximum demand of all consuming devices'. It should be based on a calculation of all consumer supply points within the premises, according to an approved 'maximum demand calculation'.

As you note, it is highly unlikely that all of the devices will be operating at the same time, hence, the maximum demand calculation to determine the size of cabling required for the installation.

The calculation of the maximum demand of domestic and commercial premises is a huge component of the theory section of Australian electrical exams. The result of the calculation is then used to determine the size and type of supply cable and fuse sizing (or, in this day and age, circuit breaker sizing). So, I hope you understand that I was not impressed when you tried to fob me off with some of your incomplete responses and drip feeding.

To offset the unlikely problem of all of the air-conditioning units powering up at the same time, following a power cut, time delay circuits could be added. These sorts of set-ups have become much cheaper to purchase and install since digital control systems have taken off.

Thank you for the banter, Naam, it has been interesting, to say the least.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Stray

[Naam]

i'd like to emphasise that it was me who was shooting from the hip and made a stupid mistake concerning my initial claim "amps"

as far as cabling from the meter to the electrical distribution of my house (distance ~15m) is concerned i wanted to be on the safe side and overdimensioned by more than doubling the required diameter to 25mm². i'm well aware that this wasn't a necessity but based on the reason that i always was (ever since i could afford it) a "great overdimensioner in the eyes of the LORD" in most respects

but adding time delay units would be a real waste now because cabling and distribution covers even extreme eventualities with some small adjustments and the valuable help of the resident Thaivisa expert sparkies Crossy, Forkinhades, IMHO just to name a few.

[sometimewoodworker]

Harry, as you state, the variation in those voltages (stated) is not a problem. But the differences between the frequencies is.

For the OP, as a (very) general rule of thumb, for consumer supplies, 110/120VAC is at 60Hz. 220/240VAC is at 50Hz.

Except in Japan where, just for fun, it is 100VAC at either 60 Hz or 50Hz depending on which part of Japan you happen to be in at the time

Edited September 21, 2015 by sometimewoodworker