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[Thai at Heart]

You mention the "privileged and chattering classes" twice. In your opinion, is Thaksin Shinawatra the elitist, multibillionaire recipient of telecommunications monopolies in Thailand, grandson of Princess Jantip na Chiangmai a member of these "privileged and chattering classes"??

I love it when somebody who has hopelessly swallowed very silly propaganda rails against the notion of others swallowing propaganda LOL

Actually no he isn't and with respect your comments suggest you do not understand the class nuances involved.Thaksin certainly came from a prosperous Chinese/ Thai family but not from the very highest social circle. He was always seen as something of a "new" man by the Bangkok establishment even in the early days when he was quite popular with them.

Indeed there was and is a palpable distaste for Thaksin's nouveau riche persona.One could almost say a rather snobbish attitude.One often hears uninformed people arguing that Thaksin is part of the establishment.It's true only up to a point and a meaningless observation without many caveats.

Any switched on educated Thai knows the score on this - and this is one occasion when it really is difficult for most foreigners to understand the class nuances.

Yes, from fathers side from humble origin, from his mother's mother side minor Lanna Royals.

Of course just by his business empire Thaksin became part of the 'establishment', one of the "do you know who I am" type of people.

I guess that's why through all denials being stripped of his former police rank of Lieutenant-Colonel hurts, or do you think also his 'supporters' hurt for this humble man?

His father Lert, was an MP in Chiangmai as well as a money lender(sets my mafiosi warning bells ringing a treat), not exactly humble origins which more suggest to me that he was a rice farmer or similar. No, he was a member of the elite - or for the sakes of this thread one of the "privileged and chattering classes".

Unless one defines terms like "elite" all these arguments are unclear.For anyone who is genuinely interested, the chapters on family and background in Pasuk Phongpaichit/Chris Baker's "Thaksin" provide comprehensive coverage and answer most of the questions being posed in this thread.

The Shinawatras were definitely wealth and well connected in Chiangmai.If this means they were "elite" in some ways they were (amazingly extensive kinship links in army, police, bureaucracy).But they were not as Chinese-Thai provincials quite seen as social equals by the Bangkok establishment (and still are not )

As I mentioned earlier, any well connected/educated Thai would tell you the same.These nuances are quite hard for outsiders to grasp.After all to take a UK example what would foreigners make of some grandee's comment about Michael Heseltine -"the kind of man who has to buy his own furniture".Foreigners would be puzzled since Heseltine was clearly Tory toff, and would completely miss the nuance.

Having said that it's easy to make to much of this.What really pisses off the establishment is not his social status, upstart personality and vulgarity but rather because for whatever reason he threatened their vested interests by giving the Thai majority a voice.

Heseltine was Welsh money who's great grandparents were farmers. Family amassed wealth from coal and other investments.

Hardly the stuff of the landed gentry.... It's like discussing if Richard Branson is part of the British elite. He's got pots of wealth, but he doesn't make it yet. Lady Di didn't even cut it.

I don't think these distinctions matter very much in the UK now thankfully.Branson came from a wealthy family and attended an elite school.Heseltine made his own money in publishing.Dont know what you mean re Lady Di.The Spencers are posher than the Windsors, ie long term English aristos not recent rivals from obscure German principalities.

He went to Stowe, not one of the so called Great schools. It's expensive, but it isn't Eton. He didn't go to Oxford or Cambridge. His family wasn't that wealthy.

The guy is a great entrepreneur. Posh doesn't quite make it either. Old established connections to the inner workings is part of the deal.

Lyons tea rooms and the Lawsons are one of the merchant elite in uk. Heseltine has his lordship, so I suppose he finally arrived.

Having a hereditary lordship from a few generations probably means u arrived.

Just look at the Bunnags or Vejajivas for long term elite in Thailand. Boardships granted on major companies after generations of service to the Thai bureaucracy.

Nothing so petty as business for them.

[chrisrazz]

My sources reside near the idyllic NaKlang District in Nong Bua Lamphu. As Isaan as it gets

Surely you mean the area of uneducated peasants not worth the steam off a hiso baby's piss. A place where the people are forced at gunpoint to vote according to the headman's instructions. I wonder how the headman gets elected?

I know this area very well and have lived there for many years. The people are friendly, without prejudice, resilient, innovative, and, far more worldly than their so called betters think they are. I have been to the local polling station on a number of occasions. Happy days of people exercising their democratic rights. Friends meeting. The girl guides assisting voters. The local cop sitting in the shade talking to folk. No tension. Sadly, these days are in the past and the people know exactly why.

[baboon]

"PS of course none of this has anything to do with the topic of Thaksin being peeved at having been stripped of his 'valuable' former police rank."

Neither is this topic, Mr. Stay On Topic Unless It Suits My Purposes To Do Otherwise. There is no mention of anyone being peeved or accused of being peeved.

[NovaBlue05]

"PS of course none of this has anything to do with the topic of Thaksin being peeved at having been stripped of his 'valuable' former police rank."

Neither is this topic, Mr. Stay On Topic Unless It Suits My Purposes To Do Otherwise. There is no mention of anyone being peeved or accused of being peeved.

The thread topic is more along the lines of Khun Pryut's obsession with Thaksin to the point that it hinders him from focusing on more trelevant issues....if indeed he even wants to focus on more relevant issues..

I don't think anyone here has expressed any interest in whether T is happy about losing police rank or not

[Siripon]

"PS of course none of this has anything to do with the topic of Thaksin being peeved at having been stripped of his 'valuable' former police rank."

Neither is this topic, Mr. Stay On Topic Unless It Suits My Purposes To Do Otherwise. There is no mention of anyone being peeved or accused of being peeved.

The thread topic is more along the lines of Khun Pryut's obsession with Thaksin to the point that it hinders him from focusing on more trelevant issues....if indeed he even wants to focus on more relevant issues..

I don't think anyone here has expressed any interest in whether T is happy about losing police rank or not

5555 you really need to slow down and stop playing your guitar so frenetically, less is more you know-

Nai (Mr) Thaksin, the vainest man to have ever been in Thailand, is I believe, very upset at being reduced to the status of a commoner, even though his titleless son said Dad didn't care. For in Mr Thaksin's world, we are all equal, but some are more equal than others.

[NovaBlue05]

"PS of course none of this has anything to do with the topic of Thaksin being peeved at having been stripped of his 'valuable' former police rank."

Neither is this topic, Mr. Stay On Topic Unless It Suits My Purposes To Do Otherwise. There is no mention of anyone being peeved or accused of being peeved.

The thread topic is more along the lines of Khun Pryut's obsession with Thaksin to the point that it hinders him from focusing on more trelevant issues....if indeed he even wants to focus on more relevant issues..

I don't think anyone here has expressed any interest in whether T is happy about losing police rank or not

5555 you really need to slow down and stop playing your guitar so frenetically, less is more you know-

Nai (Mr) Thaksin, the vainest man to have ever been in Thailand, is I believe, very upset at being reduced to the status of a commoner, even though his titleless son said Dad didn't care. For in Mr Thaksin's world, we are all equal, but some are more equal than others.

If believing that helps you, and you think it relevant, then that's all that matters

[hawker9000]

He doesn't give a damn, because he believes one day he will return innocent and vindicated. Then watch the storm of retribution.

He knows every bit of dodgy business they have all done. He was one of them. They are all in it up to their eyeballs.

You think he cares about a police rank and pension, when he is now playing for it All.

There are no clean hands at the top of Thai society and bureaucracy. None.

"he believes one day he will return innocent and vindicated. Then watch the storm of retribution."

I actually used to believe that there was at least some chance of this happening one day, certainly not because I ever thought it would be a good thing, but simply because of his wealth, his continued influence, and last but not least his overriding self-interest and lust for power. But I'm coming around to the view that he's past the point of no return. He couldn't come back again without igniting a true firestorm and precipitating a violent divide that would fracture Thailand dramatically. Maybe someday in his final years when he no longer poses any credible political threat. At that point I can even see him getting a pardon.

..................."without igniting a true firestorm and precipitating a violent divide that would fracture Thailand dramatically."................

Been there, done that. 2010, Bangkok.

'Nope. 'Was there, and not even close. That was a gentle spring shower compared to what would happen now if he suddenly returned. ...to stay that is. A quick sneak in & out, for whatever strange reason, maybe just to prove he can, wouldn't be a huge deal.

[Fat Haggis]

Will do. To what end?

To show you how stock manipulation takes place.

And there isn't a single Senior staff officer in the RTA who "manipulates" stocks ? , seeing as you seem privvy to the ins and outs literally of the Shins and banking, stands to reason you would be well aware of similar actions and transactions those extremely wealthy Generals, Admirals and Air Vice Marshals sure as there is shit in a dog, didn't get to be millionaires and billionaires on State Military salaries!!

[NovaBlue05]

Those on TVF who share the Generals obsession with evrything T certainly are an entrenched, determined & passionate lot

[Siripon]

Will do. To what end?

To show you how stock manipulation takes place.

And there isn't a single Senior staff officer in the RTA who "manipulates" stocks ? , seeing as you seem privvy to the ins and outs literally of the Shins and banking, stands to reason you would be well aware of similar actions and transactions those extremely wealthy Generals, Admirals and Air Vice Marshals sure as there is shit in a dog, didn't get to be millionaires and billionaires on State Military salaries!!

Undoubtedly there are many people involved in stock manipulation in Thailand, but none of them pretended to be a leader of a political party that would 'think new, do anew' ,ie different from the past, be innovative and work for the Thai people's interests, ' Thai Rak Thai' - Thais loves Thais and 'Thai Pheua Thai'-

And I believe no one did it on his scale- billions- laws changed to benefit his companies- policy corruption and promises those that voted for him would receive funds first.- disgraceful as a national leader.

[Baerboxer]

When / if that day comes we won't know. Thaksin, as a convicted criminal fugitive won't be able to stand. Not sure how the other serious 15 or so outstanding criminal cases affect that.

He won't come back without a full amnesty, for everything ever. The Krungthai Bank case convictions with him being number 1 defendant show why he really ran.

I imagine he'll rort the system to quash the charges. Much like Mr P rorts the system to make everything he does legal. It's easy enough to do because when/if he comes back there will likely be a huge purge of the real criminals and thieves in Thailand.. His only conviction was very dodgy indeed, I am conditioned to think that any charge leveled at him by his former elite friends will be bogus as well.

And it wasn't Thaksin who made me think that way..

No course not. All those 15+ cases - all bogus. The Krungthai Bank case where other defendants convicted - but bogus for Thaksin. And on and on.

His conviction wasn't dodgy at all - he never denied breaking the law, never appealed the decision and legged it. Now the sentence, is a different discussion.

What makes you believe Thaksin is totally innocent?

[Baerboxer]

My wrong there, I was trying (hoping) to reply to Baerboxer - he is the preacher!

That was a name LannaGuy coined. So nice to see you two still joined at the hip and having some girly fun with nicknames. Just like in the 3rd form.

[Baerboxer]

But he's absolutely correct in his comments and your sarcasm does not diminish the inherent truth of his observations...... There are many posters here who have a serious knowledge of Thai culture and who can speak Thai (clearly not you !) . I have lived and worked here for over 28 years and yes, can speak Thai and will confirm that most foreigners have no idea at all about Thai class nuances !!!!

Well whoopee do for you clever clogs! My 25 years nearly equals your 28. And yes, I speak Thai. I have friends and acquaintances from the different classes here, as, like many modern Western people, make an effort to communicate at all levels.

But that doesn't mean that I support arrogant, condescending, pompous posts anymore than I do those that attempt re-writes of history or engage in propaganda.

Most foreigners are short term tourists whose holiday is not likely to include a study of Thai class nuances. As to posters here, well yes, some do seem to have the ludicrous idea that Thaksin and the Shin clan are working class.

[Baerboxer]

Of course it doesn't. Without going into detail I am probably more qualified than most on TV and some of the old-timers who demand respect for time served hate it. When the above people slag me off for being a newbie, they are really demonstrating their own incompetence and how it feels when they realise it. it's not nice for them.

It really doesn't worry me very much. People either read my posts and agree with them, or read them and disagree with them or don't read them. Either way, I and my wife and children will eat tomorrow because I've worked and studied. Not because I have people who are willing to like me.

So I don't really give a monkeys if people call me a newbie for not respecting time served. Life sucks and then they will die and I just won't care at all. One man's meat is another man's poison.

Without going into details you are probable more qualified than most .................

Course you are, a legend in your own lunchtime,

Newbie isn't meant as a derogatory term, It simply highlights that you are new to this forum and rapidly building a posting count primarily in defending and supporting Thaksin, his clan and their privately owned political party.

I think a large number of people who live here fund that through having worked or still working hard, and many have been able to pursue higher education.

No one demands anything from you. You are entitled to your view. You think all the charges against Thaksin are bogus, that he's totally innocent, and now you're trying to suggest you are specially qualified to know all this. Hilarious.

Life's a bitch, then you die. One of my friends used to say that the only certain things in life are death and taxes. (Well not for Thaksin of course, he don't do tax!).

[musiclover]

But he's absolutely correct in his comments and your sarcasm does not diminish the inherent truth of his observations...... There are many posters here who have a serious knowledge of Thai culture and who can speak Thai (clearly not you !) . I have lived and worked here for over 28 years and yes, can speak Thai and will confirm that most foreigners have no idea at all about Thai class nuances !!!!

Well whoopee do for you clever clogs! My 25 years nearly equals your 28. And yes, I speak Thai. I have friends and acquaintances from the different classes here, as, like many modern Western people, make an effort to communicate at all levels.

But that doesn't mean that I support arrogant, condescending, pompous posts anymore than I do those that attempt re-writes of history or engage in propaganda.

Most foreigners are short term tourists whose holiday is not likely to include a study of Thai class nuances. As to posters here, well yes, some do seem to have the ludicrous idea that Thaksin and the Shin clan are working class.

But 25 years here has taught you little about Thai class nuances it seems...

Sarcasm seems to your strong suit!

Your point about most foreigners being tourists is totally irrelevant and Ive not read any posts that claim Thaksin was working class ..lol.

[hawker9000]

Those on TVF who share the Generals obsession with evrything T certainly are an entrenched, determined & passionate lot

'Sounds more like some on TVF who're obsessed with the General... And labels like "entrenched", "determined" & "passionate" surely do describe them. To a 'T' ( I'm here all week, folks!) . 'Left out "one-track" though...

To the government, this is, or would've been, just a day's work, but extruded into an interminable epic by the footdraggers who opposed it at every turn for their own selfish reasons.

[JAG]

My wrong there, I was trying (hoping) to reply to Baerboxer - he is the preacher!

That was a name LannaGuy coined. So nice to see you two still joined at the hip and having some girly fun with nicknames. Just like in the 3rd form.

You're right, and it is smack on the mark, which is why I used it.

Obviously resonates.

[mikemac]

My wrong there, I was trying (hoping) to reply to Baerboxer - he is the preacher!

That was a name LannaGuy coined. So nice to see you two still joined at the hip and having some girly fun with nicknames. Just like in the 3rd form.

.............................."So nice to see you two still joined at the hip"...............................

I don't always agree with JAG, but I thought he had more class than that !

[louse1953]

Why is he scared of Thaksin?

Thaksin could still beat him in a poulularity contest tomorrow if he were allowed to come back... Even after all the famous corruption and stolen billions...

This general came up short when he says we will stop corruption and then reshuffled all his friends into the cabinet jobs and his brother as top dog in the army

And you base this on what exactly.The Thais i speak with are happy with Prayuth and i live in Issan.

[MZurf]

Why is he scared of Thaksin?

Thaksin could still beat him in a poulularity contest tomorrow if he were allowed to come back... Even after all the famous corruption and stolen billions...

This general came up short when he says we will stop corruption and then reshuffled all his friends into the cabinet jobs and his brother as top dog in the army

And you base this on what exactly.The Thais i speak with are happy with Prayuth and i live in Issan.

Well he did promise to return happiness to the people so if that missions is already accomplished I guess there is no reason for him not to hold elections ASAP.

Or....?

[metisdead]

Off topic distraction posts and replies have been removed.

[rubl]

"PS of course none of this has anything to do with the topic of Thaksin being peeved at having been stripped of his 'valuable' former police rank."

Neither is this topic, Mr. Stay On Topic Unless It Suits My Purposes To Do Otherwise. There is no mention of anyone being peeved or accused of being peeved.

It's not proper nettiquette to cut a line from a post, start with if as if it's a quote ("") and react on it like you do, my dear baboon.

As you cut from my posts and your style gets recognisable it seems you aim this post of yours at me without having the decency to address me. That's another breach of nettiquette.

As for being peeved, well, the OP mentions Thaksin calling PM Prayut childish (for stripping him of his former rank). Somehow that suggests Thaksin is not happy, a bit peeved. Combine that with another recent statement like "if it helps reconciliation go ahead", a statement which ignored the legal aspects of stripping a criminal fugitive of his former police rank and one gets the distinct impression Thaksin is not happy about having lost his former police rank.

On the other hand one can imagine that the PM gets annoyed about the frequent ramblings of Thaksin and other people (including TVF posters) on whether it is wise, legal, worthwhile, the appropriate time, etc., etc. to do such thing. I'm sure he'd rather spent his time on important issues, like the economy, reforms, charters. All areas people demands he spend more time on.

[baboon]

"PS of course none of this has anything to do with the topic of Thaksin being peeved at having been stripped of his 'valuable' former police rank."

Neither is this topic, Mr. Stay On Topic Unless It Suits My Purposes To Do Otherwise. There is no mention of anyone being peeved or accused of being peeved.

It's not proper nettiquette to cut a line from a post, start with if as if it's a quote ("") and react on it like you do, my dear baboon.

As you cut from my posts and your style gets recognisable it seems you aim this post of yours at me without having the decency to address me. That's another breach of nettiquette.

As for being peeved, well, the OP mentions Thaksin calling PM Prayut childish (for stripping him of his former rank). Somehow that suggests Thaksin is not happy, a bit peeved. Combine that with another recent statement like "if it helps reconciliation go ahead", a statement which ignored the legal aspects of stripping a criminal fugitive of his former police rank and one gets the distinct impression Thaksin is not happy about having lost his former police rank.

On the other hand one can imagine that the PM gets annoyed about the frequent ramblings of Thaksin and other people (including TVF posters) on whether it is wise, legal, worthwhile, the appropriate time, etc., etc. to do such thing. I'm sure he'd rather spent his time on important issues, like the economy, reforms, charters. All areas people demands he spend more time on.

Blah blah. The subject of this topic is not about Thaksin being peeved, whether or not there is a hint or not buried in the OP. End of.

[mikemac]

Well he did promise to return happiness to the people so if that missions is already accomplished I guess there is no reason for him not to hold elections ASAP.

Or....?

If he is pissing people like you off.....................he is making me happy !

I don't think the PM is scared of Thaksin, more likely he just does not like him.

[MZurf]

Well he did promise to return happiness to the people so if that missions is already accomplished I guess there is no reason for him not to hold elections ASAP.

Or....?

If he is pissing people like you off.....................he is making me happy !

I don't think the PM is scared of Thaksin, more likely he just does not like him.

"If he is pissing people like you off.....................he is making me happy ! "

Glad I could be of service! I guess you need all the help you can get because the actions of your hero isn't returning happiness to anybody.

"I don't think the PM is scared of Thaksin, more likely he just does not like him."

Oh, but I think he is very scared, and he has every reason to be. But if you don't know who the bogeyman in Dubai cultivated a close relationship with during his time as PM then it explains your inane statement.

[NovaBlue05]

Some seem to advance a position that, either you blather on interminably that Thaksin is the second coming of Hitler and Pol Pot combined, or otherwise you are a hopeless Thaksin sycophant. Apparently, there is no grey area in Thai politics

[rubl]

"PS of course none of this has anything to do with the topic of Thaksin being peeved at having been stripped of his 'valuable' former police rank."

Neither is this topic, Mr. Stay On Topic Unless It Suits My Purposes To Do Otherwise. There is no mention of anyone being peeved or accused of being peeved.

It's not proper nettiquette to cut a line from a post, start with if as if it's a quote ("") and react on it like you do, my dear baboon.

As you cut from my posts and your style gets recognisable it seems you aim this post of yours at me without having the decency to address me. That's another breach of nettiquette.

As for being peeved, well, the OP mentions Thaksin calling PM Prayut childish (for stripping him of his former rank). Somehow that suggests Thaksin is not happy, a bit peeved. Combine that with another recent statement like "if it helps reconciliation go ahead", a statement which ignored the legal aspects of stripping a criminal fugitive of his former police rank and one gets the distinct impression Thaksin is not happy about having lost his former police rank.

On the other hand one can imagine that the PM gets annoyed about the frequent ramblings of Thaksin and other people (including TVF posters) on whether it is wise, legal, worthwhile, the appropriate time, etc., etc. to do such thing. I'm sure he'd rather spent his time on important issues, like the economy, reforms, charters. All areas people demands he spend more time on.

Blah blah. The subject of this topic is not about Thaksin being peeved, whether or not there is a hint or not buried in the OP. End of.

Correct, the topic is not Thaksin being peeved, but the PM lashing out at Thaksin who seems peeved and in an ugly mood.

May I repeat my last paragraph

"On the other hand one can imagine that the PM gets annoyed about the frequent ramblings of Thaksin and other people (including TVF posters) on whether it is wise, legal, worthwhile, the appropriate time, etc., etc. to do such thing. I'm sure he'd rather spent his time on important issues, like the economy, reforms, charters. All areas people demands he spend more time on."

Plus

"As for being peeved, well, the OP mentions Thaksin calling PM Prayut childish (for stripping him of his former rank). Somehow that suggests Thaksin is not happy, a bit peeved. Combine that with another recent statement like "if it helps reconciliation go ahead", a statement which ignored the legal aspects of stripping a criminal fugitive of his former police rank and one gets the distinct impression Thaksin is not happy about having lost his former police rank."

Now if you think that's just a bit of blabla, it would seem you've equally peeved at not being able to come with some decent arguments. Relax, past 7PM on a Friday evening. Grap a beer or an orange juice.

[jayboy]

"PS of course none of this has anything to do with the topic of Thaksin being peeved at having been stripped of his 'valuable' former police rank."

Neither is this topic, Mr. Stay On Topic Unless It Suits My Purposes To Do Otherwise. There is no mention of anyone being peeved or accused of being peeved.

The thread topic is more along the lines of Khun Pryut's obsession with Thaksin to the point that it hinders him from focusing on more trelevant issues....if indeed he even wants to focus on more relevant issues..

I don't think anyone here has expressed any interest in whether T is happy about losing police rank or not

5555 you really need to slow down and stop playing your guitar so frenetically, less is more you know-

Nai (Mr) Thaksin, the vainest man to have ever been in Thailand, is I believe, very upset at being reduced to the status of a commoner, even though his titleless son said Dad didn't care. For in Mr Thaksin's world, we are all equal, but some are more equal than others.

I actually made the effort to look at your timeline which confirmed my impression that an extraordinarily high proportion of your posts have been about Thaksin.My question is whether you consider that Thailand's current dreadful situation can some how be attributed to Thaksin.Or to put it another way do you think that if Thaksin had never appeared on the scene the country would be in a significantly better position?

I put it to you ( because you are obviously a person of intelligence and insight) that it might be useful to consider that there are other factors at work much more important than Thaksin.

I make this point because with respect complaints about Thaksin's vanity seem so remote from the reality of Thailand's challenges.My view is that if Thaksin had never existed Thailand would be facing a huge challenge, essentially the same challenge of inequality and social mobility it's now facing.

Maybe it would be a good idea to face these issues head on rather than constantly invoking an exiled hate figure.

[NovaBlue05]

Thaksin was corrupt all right but he's not the problem. The problem is that everybody who is part of Thailand's authority apparatus, whether it be politics, the military or the police..... is corrupt. The junta leader will just rearrange the Org Chart.

[Baerboxer]

But he's absolutely correct in his comments and your sarcasm does not diminish the inherent truth of his observations...... There are many posters here who have a serious knowledge of Thai culture and who can speak Thai (clearly not you !) . I have lived and worked here for over 28 years and yes, can speak Thai and will confirm that most foreigners have no idea at all about Thai class nuances !!!!

Well whoopee do for you clever clogs! My 25 years nearly equals your 28. And yes, I speak Thai. I have friends and acquaintances from the different classes here, as, like many modern Western people, make an effort to communicate at all levels.

But that doesn't mean that I support arrogant, condescending, pompous posts anymore than I do those that attempt re-writes of history or engage in propaganda.

Most foreigners are short term tourists whose holiday is not likely to include a study of Thai class nuances. As to posters here, well yes, some do seem to have the ludicrous idea that Thaksin and the Shin clan are working class.

But 25 years here has taught you little about Thai class nuances it seems...

Sarcasm seems to your strong suit!

Your point about most foreigners being tourists is totally irrelevant and Ive not read any posts that claim Thaksin was working class ..lol.

You've not learnt much in your ivory tower then, it seems. Or read many of the posts on TVF where some like to portray the Shins as self made from humble beginnings.

You made a statement that you can confirm most foreigners have no idea at all about Thai class nuances. Most foreigners would include the large proportion who visit as tourists. Not therefore irrelevant if that was a generalized comment from you. Seeing as how it wasn't perhaps you'd share with us the research methodology you used to investigate that? Or is it just your "educated" guess?