Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[smedly]

we are unable to link this story but worth a look if you google "the-chilling-effect-koh-tao-suspects"

I tried to open this article and it is now blocked by the Thai government, a sad day for democracy and a brilliant day for the best police force in the world, I now hold little hope for the B2 as this pack of sorry individuals who set up this scape goat are determined to have them put away, a very sad and sorry day on the world stage, and a sorry day for English politicians who have no intestinal fortitude.

just shows how much attention is being given to discussion forums such as this one, weird thing now is - I am going to actively seek out this article and read it when I hadn't done before

[AGareth2]

get the individual behind the hair and he will implicate the rest

[BritTim]

Not sure how this is going to play out but I think Prayuth would have consulted with Pornthip and Justice Officials and is well aware of what is going on most likely already had a tap on the shoulder from the Burmese government .

He must now be able to see that these two are scapegoats and he has advised everyone to let it continue to play out in the courts, let the prosecution keep digging their hole bigger and bigger.

Prayuth is unable to defend the prosecution side so his only option is to take action against them , in past years he would have been able to protect them.

Investigations are surely going on in the background hopefully forensically checking all phone calls around the time of the murders why police changed there story , boats leaving the island,DNA on the hoe etc etc.

I know people say the protected are untouchable but I think that this time there is no other choice than to aggressively go after the killers and all those involved in the setting the B2 up as scapegoats.

I honestly don't think we will have long to wait for a not guilty verdict it could come in the next 4 weeks.

How I wish this were true!

In reality, I doubt Prayuth yet has any idea what is going on in court. The timing is wrong for Burmese diplomatic actions. That will come when the trial is over. For the rest, who is going to tell him? Do you think the head of the RTP, when discussing the Bangkok bombings, is going to say "by the way, in court on Koh Samui, they have demonstrated convincingly that we framed the accused"? No way. Prayuth will become aware when a major stink is raised by human rights organizations and in the major media. Depending on how much pressure is applied at that point, Prayuth might take action, but probably not.

[stephenterry]

she tried to leave a message

"Natural Justice" The phrase used by the UK coroner when releasing the autopsy report that blew apart the credibility of the Thai version.

Unfortunately we are seeing anything but natural justice here. Instead we are witnessing evidence that likely holds the key to the real perpetrators that is being deliberately hidden from the court and to scrutiny by the defense team and its experts.

There's no question about this.

What is more sinister, is that the deliberate withholding of evidence is evidence that the prosecution will continue to seek a guilty verdict from the court. It is clear to me that RTP officialdom MUST be seen to be believed to retain the status quo that exists in Thailand - i.e. the statements of persons with high status and with high-rank authority are not questionned or criticised. Protectionism at the highest level is the bedrock of Thai society.

When you have Commissioner Generals and others at that level threatening to take action against any negative critique of the RTP in THIS case, you know it's a lost cause that any justice will be served.

As it is crystal clear the defence have (in theory) dismantled the prosecution's case, the RTP are now resorting to non-disclosure of any other pertinent 'evidence' that would disprove their assertions.

It is sad to note that the judges are more than likely to uphold the prosecution's case (for the above reasons), with the caveat that the defence are permitted to appeal the verdicts.

However insane, unjust, or unlawful it is to non-Thais, this is how the justice system in Thailand works. I would be delighted to be proved wrong and embrace Stealth's optimism, but I hold no expectation of that.

[phuketandsee]

The crime scene management was the first issue that has come to haunt the cops as it was never done properly.

The Judges themselves must be aware that procedures were not carried out correctly.

The crime scene and the bodies themselves were not subject to forensic pathologists, which Dr. Porntip highlighted on several occasions, it would have taken a couple of hours to get one on scene, why didn't the coppers request one, unless they already know that an "outside agency" would be all over it like a tramp on chips, and thier "theory/stories/version of events" would possibly have been blown out of the water, pretty much like it has been already.

The decision to not produce the chain of custody documents must also have the judges question why not?

If this was as watertight as the police and the prosecution claimed, they would have been producing these documents in triplicate and ramming it down the defence's throat.

Just like the DNA match, it's nothing more than RTP hearsay, no chain of custody documents, is really the final unraveling of the charade of a watertight case, I feel sorry for the families of the victims as whatever "evidence" it was that they felt comfortable in releasing theses statements with regards to the accused having a case to answer to, with compelling and overwhelming evidence to support this.

Look, this goes back to the development of the legal system in the Kingdom of Siam. There were no scientists. There were no police. In China the investigation was conducted by the local (appointed, civil service) magistrate. In Thailand it was done by the kamnan, or whatever the equivalent was under the Ayutthaya Monarchy.. The courts developed a heavy reliance on eye witness testimony. Under King Chulalongkorn the legal code was rewritten to persuade the colonial powers to abrogate the unequal treaties, which included extraterritoriality because the Siamese legal system was so unpredictable compared to Western systems. Judges are very conservative, and the reliance on eye witness testimony remains. The courts remain very suspicious of physical evidence. Don't expect the judges to hold the police to any standard; the judges' role is to safeguard society and prevent any threats to the order of things.

This was all discussed when Dr. Phornthip first became a national celebrity. High police officers do not know how to make use of forensic science. Dr. Phorntip treats them with contempt, so they hate her and all forensic technicians. You can see their ignorance in the way they talk about and try to use DNA. They think it's some kind of magic, like what you see in kids' TV on Saturday mornings. The public and international criticism is something they don't understand. They're hi-so, the "good" people, why isn't their word sufficient to end all these annoying questions? The police and the judges seem to have slept through all the science classes in their schools, so they don't have any idea what we're talking about.

This is why the courts give a 50% discount on the sentence if the accused confesses.

Interesting stuff Acharn, thanks. Is it possible their appalling "justice" system is one of consequences of Thailand never being colonized?

[StealthEnergiser]

Not sure how this is going to play out but I think Prayuth would have consulted with Pornthip and Justice Officials and is well aware of what is going on most likely already had a tap on the shoulder from the Burmese government .

He must now be able to see that these two are scapegoats and he has advised everyone to let it continue to play out in the courts, let the prosecution keep digging their hole bigger and bigger.

Prayuth is unable to defend the prosecution side so his only option is to take action against them , in past years he would have been able to protect them.

Investigations are surely going on in the background hopefully forensically checking all phone calls around the time of the murders why police changed there story , boats leaving the island,DNA on the hoe etc etc.

I know people say the protected are untouchable but I think that this time there is no other choice than to aggressively go after the killers and all those involved in the setting the B2 up as scapegoats.

I honestly don't think we will have long to wait for a not guilty verdict it could come in the next 4 weeks.

How I wish this were true!

In reality, I doubt Prayuth yet has any idea what is going on in court. The timing is wrong for Burmese diplomatic actions. That will come when the trial is over. For the rest, who is going to tell him? Do you think the head of the RTP, when discussing the Bangkok bombings, is going to say "by the way, in court on Koh Samui, they have demonstrated convincingly that we framed the accused"? No way. Prayuth will become aware when a major stink is raised by human rights organizations and in the major media. Depending on how much pressure is applied at that point, Prayuth might take action, but probably not.

I wish it would come true also but I do think Prayuth knows and I am sure Human rights organisations won't be holding back . Guess its' a matter of waiting and watching.

[catsanddogs]

It can be no coincidence that the two men who have spoken up and said the RTP tried to force false witness statements out of them are nowhere to be seen or heard. The taxi driver and Maung Maung - paid off, in hiding too fearful to speak up, or no longer in the land of the living? Hope the defence have some information on their whereabouts.

[Trisha61]

Trisha61, on 03 Oct 2015 - 10:07, said:

Jersey Evening Post (PUBLISHED: October 2, 2015 12:00 pm) :- Never let a person sit alone': Memorial bench for David Miller unveiled on north coast.

See jerseyeveningnews.com for photographs, as Moderator has taken down the pictures that I posted. Sorry I do not know how to embed a link from my iPad.

'Never let a person sit alone': Memorial bench for David Miller unveiled on north coast

http://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2015/10/02/never-let-a-person-sit-alone-memorial-bench-for-david-miller-unveiled-on-north-coast/

Thanks for posting that link IslandLover, much appreciated.

[T_Dog]

The crime scene management was the first issue that has come to haunt the cops as it was never done properly.

The Judges themselves must be aware that procedures were not carried out correctly.

The crime scene and the bodies themselves were not subject to forensic pathologists, which Dr. Porntip highlighted on several occasions, it would have taken a couple of hours to get one on scene, why didn't the coppers request one, unless they already know that an "outside agency" would be all over it like a tramp on chips, and thier "theory/stories/version of events" would possibly have been blown out of the water, pretty much like it has been already.

The decision to not produce the chain of custody documents must also have the judges question why not?

If this was as watertight as the police and the prosecution claimed, they would have been producing these documents in triplicate and ramming it down the defence's throat.

Just like the DNA match, it's nothing more than RTP hearsay, no chain of custody documents, is really the final unraveling of the charade of a watertight case, I feel sorry for the families of the victims as whatever "evidence" it was that they felt comfortable in releasing theses statements with regards to the accused having a case to answer to, with compelling and overwhelming evidence to support this.

Look, this goes back to the development of the legal system in the Kingdom of Siam. There were no scientists. There were no police. In China the investigation was conducted by the local (appointed, civil service) magistrate. In Thailand it was done by the kamnan, or whatever the equivalent was under the Ayutthaya Monarchy.. The courts developed a heavy reliance on eye witness testimony. Under King Chulalongkorn the legal code was rewritten to persuade the colonial powers to abrogate the unequal treaties, which included extraterritoriality because the Siamese legal system was so unpredictable compared to Western systems. Judges are very conservative, and the reliance on eye witness testimony remains. The courts remain very suspicious of physical evidence. Don't expect the judges to hold the police to any standard; the judges' role is to safeguard society and prevent any threats to the order of things.

This was all discussed when Dr. Phornthip first became a national celebrity. High police officers do not know how to make use of forensic science. Dr. Phorntip treats them with contempt, so they hate her and all forensic technicians. You can see their ignorance in the way they talk about and try to use DNA. They think it's some kind of magic, like what you see in kids' TV on Saturday mornings. The public and international criticism is something they don't understand. They're hi-so, the "good" people, why isn't their word sufficient to end all these annoying questions? The police and the judges seem to have slept through all the science classes in their schools, so they don't have any idea what we're talking about.

This is why the courts give a 50% discount on the sentence if the accused confesses.

There is also the hangover from the caste system - Sakdina, which gave more weight and credence to evidence of those from a higher caste.......I think many underestimate the power and influence that the residue from this system still has....

One should also note that if you are not Thai, you are off the bottom of the Sakdina system. (i.e. you do not even merit a rating.) Great set of posts above, and shows the importance of keeping up the exposure on this case and helping these two innocent men.

[boomerangutang]

When a defense witness or finding shows the RTP and their investigators/forensics were wrong, do the RTP speak up to defend themselves or their findings It appears not. What they're not saying says a lot about them being comfortable in their incompetence (and in their cover-up).

[StealthEnergiser]

Andy Hall The key issue is that even this circumstantial evidence is not backed up by any evidence in court. They merely said (and wrote on one document) there was a match between cigarettes and accused, there was a match between cigarettes and semen/DNA found in and on deceased females body. But they still presented no evidence at all to court to back up these bold claims.

Like · Reply · 4 · September 13 at 9:14pm

https://www.facebook.com/andy.hall.3110/posts/10153213246090677

[thailandchilli]

AGareth2, on 03 Oct 2015 - 11:22, said:

or the blonde hair came from the facebook cop?

There is another KT local who has been pictured wearing a blond wig.

Its also perfectly possible that a woman could have been involved with this. We have reports from the RTP of cctv of a farrang woman running away from the scene but that cctv has never been revealed. Of course this could also have been Hannah but perhaps it was somebody else involved. Also when the mass DNA testing of the Burmese started on KT they were also testing women.

With a woman as another possible assailant together with the rest of the group who did this to the victims this gives the jealousy angle some further interest.

[sambum]

Whoever released the crime pictures of the victims, should be sent to jail immediatly and sacked from their employment.

Any human being that can upload pictures of the two murder victims is a very sick individual, and in my opinion is just as bad as the people who committed these acts, maybe the people are known to each other?

"in my opinion is just as bad as the people who committed these acts"

Really? Just as bad? Really? Come on now...

At face value and by Western standards where one could hope for an impartial investigation, Boris was right. But he seems to have overlooked the possibility that whoever posted the photographs wanted them in the public domain to create greater public and international outrage and, thereby, greater public scrutiny of the investigation in the knowledge that a cover-up or, at least, a botched investigation was highly likely. Remember that a senior policeman and, presumably, his loyalists too were sidelined after taking a 'wrong tack' in the investigation and life may now never be quite the same again for them and their families.

Whatever the reasons for posting the photographs they did result in greatly heightened public outrage and interest in the crimes and dubious police investigation. Would the hundreds of thousands of followers accrued by CSI LA or the petition to David Cameron (irrespective of the British government's irresponsible and possibly criminal decisions made consequent to it) have happened without the photographs? I doubt if. Now it seems they are they only photographs of the crime scene, including the possible criminal alterations that were made to it, that the defence has been allowed to see, since police refused to share their official crime scene photographs.

"since police refused to share their official crime scene photographs."

I think the official line was that they did not have enough money to keep copies of the photographs, or that they didn't have enough money to take enough photographs! Or maybe they went "missing" or "all used up" !

Only the RTP/Prosecution know for certain, and I agree with you - these photos certainly greatly heightened public outrage and interest in the crimes, and have played a significant part in discrediting the RTP version of events, just another facet of the investigation that one poster described quite succinctly - "has more holes in it than a piece of Gorgonzola cheese"!

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed.

[DarioS]

AGareth2, on 03 Oct 2015 - 11:22, said:

or the blonde hair came from the facebook cop?

There is another KT local who has been pictured wearing a blond wig.

Its also perfectly possible that a woman could have been involved with this. We have reports from the RTP of cctv of a farrang woman running away from the scene but that cctv has never been revealed. Of course this could also have been Hannah but perhaps it was somebody else involved. Also when the mass DNA testing of the Burmese started on KT they were also testing women.

With a woman as another possible assailant together with the rest of the group who did this to the victims this gives the jealousy angle some further interest.

[DarioS]

In the photo albums of Hoe Man's FaceBook, his girlfriend colours her hair in all sorts of colours. This was taken in October last year, no photos of her in September....would that hair appear blond in cctv's?

[DarioS]

Or would Asians call that blond anyway? I'm Asian, and I call it "light" colour hair...

[DarioS]

Been reading these posts for a year....just had a light bulb moment.

Hoe Man's girlfriend sees him chatting up with Hannah, she gets insanely jealous and.....attacks Hannah??

[StealthEnergiser]

This video has quite a bit of info some clear pictures of the hoe area ac bar etc but no subtitle it also shows girls having DNA taken at 12:18

[thailandchilli]

In the photo albums of Hoe Man's FaceBook, his girlfriend colours her hair in all sorts of colours. This was taken in October last year, no photos of her in September....would that hair appear blond in cctv's?

To be honest I don't think hoe man has anything to do with the actual crime, he's just a sick attention seeking individual.

[silverado]

AGareth2, on 03 Oct 2015 - 11:22, said:

or the blonde hair came from the facebook cop?

There is another KT local who has been pictured wearing a blond wig.

Its also perfectly possible that a woman could have been involved with this. We have reports from the RTP of cctv of a farrang woman running away from the scene but that cctv has never been revealed. Of course this could also have been Hannah but perhaps it was somebody else involved. Also when the mass DNA testing of the Burmese started on KT they were also testing women.

With a woman as another possible assailant together with the rest of the group who did this to the victims this gives the jealousy angle some further interest.

woman or the police man wearing the blond wig ?

[StealthEnergiser]

Police Colonel Prachum Ruangthong the person that was pictured shaking hands with Sean at approx 19:56 explaining about the case sorry thai but it may interesting for some members to look at.

[silverado]

Police Colonel Prachum Ruangthong the person that was pictured shaking hands with Sean at approx 19:56 explaining about the case sorry thai but it may interesting for some members to look at.

i believe this one was been offered the biggest bribe of his life......

[IslandLover]

DarioS, on 04 Oct 2015 - 16:04, said:

Been reading these posts for a year....just had a light bulb moment.

Hoe Man's girlfriend sees him chatting up with Hannah, she gets insanely jealous and.....attacks Hannah??

The gf (now his wife, I believe) has also been pictured prancing about with a hoe and openly mocking the murders.

[silverado]

DarioS, on 04 Oct 2015 - 16:04, said:

Been reading these posts for a year....just had a light bulb moment.

Hoe Man's girlfriend sees him chatting up with Hannah, she gets insanely jealous and.....attacks Hannah??

The gf (now his wife, I believe) has also been pictured prancing about with a hoe and openly mocking the murders.

should we forget Mon and Nomsod ? i don't !

[IslandLover]

StealthEnergiser, on 04 Oct 2015 - 16:16, said:

This video has quite a bit of info some clear pictures of the hoe area ac bar etc but no subtitle it also shows girls having DNA taken at 12:18

What's evident from that video is that the RTP had plenty of crime scene photos in their hands. So why weren't they produced in court? "No budget to store them" doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.

[silverado]

StealthEnergiser, on 04 Oct 2015 - 16:16, said:

This video has quite a bit of info some clear pictures of the hoe area ac bar etc but no subtitle it also shows girls having DNA taken at 12:18

What's evident from that video is that the RTP had plenty of crime scene photos in their hands. So why weren't they produced in court? "No budget to store them" doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.

simply one of the numerous Obstructions of justice i'm afraid

[Globeman]

this case needs the PM to intervene, he got himself involved early on when he said the police had a solid case (that is what he was told and I believe him), that has turned out to be untrue, I trust the PM in most things to be a man that doesn't tolerate any bull and in this case unless he does something very quickly he will find that he endorsed a complete farce and will lose face - time to get the DSI involved and get to the bottom of why this has caused such a blight on Thailand and an international outcry

I was going to say "Thailands reputation is in question" but I couldn't write that because you have to get one of those first and this is not how to do that, not the current PM's fault but he is in the driving seat to make changes - out to you PM Ptayuth Chan (O) Cha - get involved and rattle a few heads and get to the bottom of this, the world is watching, do the right thing

and OT comment - your single gateway is a nonsense idea and will hurt Thailand and it's IT infrastructure, Thailand moving forward not backward please

Methinks you're giving a wee bit too much credibility to the PM's integrity and "No bull" approach. Whether he wants to or not, he has to keep a lot of certain people sweet to stay in his position, and that means there will be some bull - unavoidable. You don't make general in Thailand by just being forthright and honest.

He didn't just support the police, he called it "The Perfect Investigation". If he was birdbrained enough to do that based on what some copper told him, well... hardly leadership material, I'd say. Unless he is a total idiot living in a hole in the ground, he knows that the defense has been kicking the prosecution's backside all over the courtroom from the first day of the trial. And yet, he just promoted the guy in charge of the investigation (Chaktip) to head of the national police last week. So if he wants to save face, he'll leave the case alone - or even instruct the judges to declare a guilty verdict regardless of the blatant miscarriage of justice that would be. (And on top of that, he really just doesn't give a <deleted> about a couple of Burmese scapegoats.)

But hey, this is the same competent pack of guys who just declared the Erawan bombing case "solved", when they have not proven any motive, don't have all the culprits with arrest warrants including the "mastermind" (that term always makes me laugh - makes the guy sound Lex Luthor or Dr. No)... It is far from solved... and they refuse to call it a terrorist act... and the reports have been contradictory and constantly changing... and this about a story that is actually making the local newspapers - unlike the Tao story, which is not. With the Erawan bombing, 20 people were killed, more than 100 very badly bashed up... and the most important thing is raising the face of the retiring police chief... screw the victims, screw truth or any sort of justice... just make sure the "right" people are getting their due respect.

So given all that, how do you think the Tao case is going to turn out? At best the boys will walk free, and the police will either mumble into their hands and wait for it to pass, or they'll claim that the boys were guilty but the defense used "legal tricks" (aka 'facts') to get them off. But one thing is certain; the actual killers of those two youngsters will never be brought to book....

[sandrabbit]

for those of you who were complaining about the Andrew Drummond link someone posted the link to a pdf summary from the judge in the UK about releasing the police report which is mentioned and I have to say it's heavy going but the judge's conclusion was that there was nothing being hidden in the unreleased report and if you read it, it isn't some conspiracy theory it's about real life between 2 countries which share confidential information and have agreed before the British police witnessed some of the RTP's investigation that it would be confidential so as not to prejudice the case and it has nothing to with the RTP investigation.

he only mentions things which have been in the public domain and also the problems the UK has with being involved in investigations which could lead to the death penalty. as I've mentioned it's heavy going but if you can follow it I have to commend the judge for his tenacity in getting as close as he can to mentioning things in the report without giving details. basically there isn't a conclusion except for there being nothing hidden in the report which would help prosecute or defend the case, I think at many points neutrality is mentioned.

don't bite my head off I think the guys are innocent but if the judge is to be believed, and I believe him, there is nothing in the report to help the B2. it's an incredible read in helping to see how the UK legal system works and I doff my cap to the judge, after reading it I think he went as far as he could and he makes many plain English descriptions for the layman to understand.

[silverado]

for those of you who were complaining about the Andrew Drummond link someone posted the link to a pdf summary from the judge in the UK about releasing the police report which is mentioned and I have to say it's heavy going but the judge's conclusion was that there was nothing being hidden in the unreleased report and if you read it, it isn't some conspiracy theory it's about real life between 2 countries which share confidential information and have agreed before the British police witnessed some of the RTP's investigation that it would be confidential so as not to prejudice the case and it has nothing to with the RTP investigation.

he only mentions things which have been in the public domain and also the problems the UK has with being involved in investigations which could lead to the death penalty. as I've mentioned it's heavy going but if you can follow it I have to commend the judge for his tenacity in getting as close as he can to mentioning things in the report without giving details. basically there isn't a conclusion except for there being nothing hidden in the report which would help prosecute or defend the case, I think at many points neutrality is mentioned.

don't bite my head off I think the guys are innocent but if the judge is to be believed, and I believe him, there is nothing in the report to help the B2. it's an incredible read in helping to see how the UK legal system works and I doff my cap to the judge, after reading it I think he went as far as he could and he makes many plain English descriptions for the layman to understand.

''British police witnessed some of the RTP's investigation....''

are you not ashamed to call it "investigation" ????

if , as you say, "there being nothing hidden in the report ..." , and if there is nothing hidden by the RTP (what uk police seems to believe as they ve not reported any doubts about it) , then everything is all right in the best world, isn't it ? it is just "about real life between 2 countries".... what you agree , isnt it ? once again , are you not ashamed to agree with ????