Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[Scouse123]

A young boy finding a phone on the beach and attempting to keep it until he finds it is locked is completely normal behavior in Thailand and most other countries for that matter. Nor does it prove he was a petty thief, he wasn't to know who it belonged to!! Nearly any person, regardless of nationality, would have done the same except a European or a Thai would have taken it to a shop to get it unlocked.

I have lost two phones in N.E. Thailand and never had them returned even though I live in a small village, am well known, and the phones were unlocked and full of photos so people would know who they belonged to.

If they are convicted on a piece of nonsense as flimsy as this, then God help us.

If these judges find them guilty to protect a non existent " face saving " they believe Thailand has got, they need to get off that bench, look at themselves and find a new career.

I wish we knew what kind of poison the Thai police have been feeding the families of the deceased, the families need to be looking long and hard at the evidence not for a " quick fix "

Find the real killers not what the Thai police want everyone to believe.

They are undoubtedly one of the most corrupt and shameless police forces in the world.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Scouse123

[Fat Haggis]

having the phone isn't necessary a sign of guilt of murder, just like having a DNA sample with all the public fanfare doesn't clear one of murder

[AleG]

Did I understand correctly that one of the defendants admits to finding the phone at 4 a.m.? And he still admits to it? To be honest, I haven't been following the case that closely lately. But if that's true, and he's truly innocent, then that's pretty bad luck on his part, isn't it?

And exceptionally good luck on the part of the police, if one would assume the theory that those two men were picked up as scapegoats what a fantastic coincidence that they'd try to frame up the two guys who just happened to had found that phone.

No, no coincidences, obviously they had found other evidence that pointed at those two men before the phone was found

Confirmation on the phone proves that the police had solid grounds to arrest them; the framing theories are now even more detached from reality than before, the insinuations that the Miller family were having doubts about the guilt of the defendants are blown away too.

Edited October 12, 2015 by AleG

[canuckamuck]

Andy is likely a great guy, but why is he tweeting what appears to be points for the final argument?

[AleG]

Andy is likely a great guy, but why is he tweeting what appears to be points for the final argument?

Damage control.

[HUH]

Andy is likely a great guy, but why is he tweeting what appears to be points for the final argument?

Because the defense are preparing their closing statements as are the prosecution

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Retweet: defense team will be working very hard in coming 15 days allowed to compile comprehensive closing statement by 26th Oct deadline

[fritzzz25]

Did I understand correctly that one of the defendants admits to finding the phone at 4 a.m.? And he still admits to it? To be honest, I haven't been following the case that closely lately. But if that's true, and he's truly innocent, then that's pretty bad luck on his part, isn't it?

And exceptionally good luck on the part of the police, if one would assume the theory that those two men were picked up as scapegoats what a fantastic coincidence that they'd try to frame up the two guys who just happened to had found that phone.

No, no coincidences, obviously they had found other evidence that pointed at those two men before the phone was found

Confirmation on the phone proves that the police had solid grounds to arrest them; the framing theories are now even more detached from reality than before, the insinuations that the Miller family were having doubts about the guilt of the defendants are blown away too.

Their case has been all based on luck. I am shocked they didn't all head up north to pet the "alligator buffalo" for more luck.

The chain of custody on this phone would be as solid as the chain of custody on the DNA - which coincidentally is about as solid as your conscience.

[zaphod reborn]

I'm not sure the phone itself is probative of anything in the case. If Wei Phyo admitted that he, or someone else, damaged the phone and tried to hide it, that's somewhat incriminating, but only in a circumstantial way. The case comes down to the DNA sample taken off Hannah's body, the chain of custody on that evidence, the DNA testing of the sample and how much credibility the Court extends to the police in the taking, handling and testing of that sample. Nothing else matters.

[canuckamuck]

Andy is likely a great guy, but why is he tweeting what appears to be points for the final argument?

Because the defense are preparing their closing statements as are the prosecution

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Retweet: defense team will be working very hard in coming 15 days allowed to compile comprehensive closing statement by 26th Oct deadline

From a tactical point of view it seems a bit daft. Why tip your hat to the final argument?

[canuckamuck]

I'm not sure the phone itself is probative of anything in the case. If Wei Phyo admitted that he, or someone else, damaged the phone and tried to hide it, that's somewhat incriminating, but only in a circumstantial way. The case comes down to the DNA sample taken off Hannah's body, the chain of custody on that evidence, the DNA testing of the sample and how much credibility the Court extends to the police in the taking, handling and testing of that sample. Nothing else matters.

The problem with the phone is that it makes a connection where there previously was none. Most of us feared a conviction despite a total lack of evidence. The phone gives them a crumb.

[BestBitterPhuket]

There is nothing in this case that clears the two accused. Farangs claiming they are innocent before doing so, are only doing so based on their dislike for the Thai police and judiciary. The problem here is that the Thai police can't be trusted, but sometimes they do their jobs, or at least get the right result, albeit not in a very professional manner, and therefore claims of conspiracies and incompetence will always have some merit. The admittance of one of the accused that he picked up the phone, makes it highly likely that he was at the scene of the murder ir so close that he would know what happened. He admitted this in court, and NOT under duress or torture.

[Just1Voice]

Did I understand correctly that one of the defendants admits to finding the phone at 4 a.m.? And he still admits to it? To be honest, I haven't been following the case that closely lately. But if that's true, and he's truly innocent, then that's pretty bad luck on his part, isn't it?

And exceptionally good luck on the part of the police, if one would assume the theory that those two men were picked up as scapegoats what a fantastic coincidence that they'd try to frame up the two guys who just happened to had found that phone.

No, no coincidences, obviously they had found other evidence that pointed at those two men before the phone was found

Confirmation on the phone proves that the police had solid grounds to arrest them; the framing theories are now even more detached from reality than before, the insinuations that the Miller family were having doubts about the guilt of the defendants are blown away too.

Oh really? So that's why the original top cop on the investigation stated clearly and concisely that they had definite proof that Mon and his relative was involved, and nothing, absolutely nothing, was said about the Burmese?

[zaphod reborn]

I'm not sure the phone itself is probative of anything in the case. If Wei Phyo admitted that he, or someone else, damaged the phone and tried to hide it, that's somewhat incriminating, but only in a circumstantial way. The case comes down to the DNA sample taken off Hannah's body, the chain of custody on that evidence, the DNA testing of the sample and how much credibility the Court extends to the police in the taking, handling and testing of that sample. Nothing else matters.

The problem with the phone is that it makes a connection where there previously was none. Most of us feared a conviction despite a total lack of evidence. The phone gives them a crumb.

It only ties Wei to the crime scene. Wei admitted he took it, and then testified someone damaged it and tried to hide it. His defense counsel didn't do a very good job if that let him testify to that. Still, that's not really evidence of involvement in the crime. The phone itself is meaningless, and that's why the police didn't impound it as evidence. If you read Andy Hall's comments above, he also agrees that the case comes down to whether the Court believes the DNA testing results submitted into evidence by the police. That's the only proffered evidence that ties the defendants to the crime.

[StealthEnergiser]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

@JQP6 @SNetibutr 2 institute of forensic science experts questioned police DNA evidence both reliability of collection/analysis & validity

[BestBitterPhuket]

Could police have 'planted' the phone? Initially, they said the found phone belonged to Hannah, then they changed their story.

When the defendant (note: one defendant, not two) claims he found the phone on the beach, what time did that happen ....before the crime? after?

If he made that claim during torture, than it means absolutely nothing. He could admit to being The Pope under torture.

The worst the phone incident shows, is one of the defendants might be a petty thief who took something off a beach.

He admitted it in court. It is now PROVEN that one of the accused took he murder victims phone, and that makes it highly likely that he was at the scene of the murder or close enough to know what happened. He also admits to theft and vandalism (stealing the phone and breaking it). The police work has been super shabby and unprofessional, but that doesn't mean that they have the wrong men. We will never know for sure, because the Thai police can't be trusted, but sometimes they get the right results, and the FACT that one of the accused took the phone, is huge.

[StealthEnergiser]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Importantly, Wai Phyo yesterday pointed out in court based on still video images two police officers he alleges tortured/abused him

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Alongside accused previous allegations of abuse/torture against 2 case translators, these new allegations need to be urgently investigated

Edited October 12, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[Linky]

There is nothing in this case that clears the two accused. Farangs claiming they are innocent before doing so, are only doing so based on their dislike for the Thai police and judiciary. The problem here is that the Thai police can't be trusted, but sometimes they do their jobs, or at least get the right result, albeit not in a very professional manner, and therefore claims of conspiracies and incompetence will always have some merit. The admittance of one of the accused that he picked up the phone, makes it highly likely that he was at the scene of the murder ir so close that he would know what happened. He admitted this in court, and NOT under duress or torture.

They dont have to be cleared. The onus is on the prosecution to prove the case. There is a difference.

So please advise what evidence proves guilt?

[Darkknight666]

I have to say, Wei admitting he was on the beach and took David's phone is bad... They were supposed to both be asleep in their room. I still don't think that the B2 killed David and Hannah but I do think they know much more than they are saying. No, the phone doesn't prove anything more than theft... Still this is not good.

[stephenterry]

There is nothing in this case that clears the two accused. Farangs claiming they are innocent before doing so, are only doing so based on their dislike for the Thai police and judiciary. The problem here is that the Thai police can't be trusted, but sometimes they do their jobs, or at least get the right result, albeit not in a very professional manner, and therefore claims of conspiracies and incompetence will always have some merit. The admittance of one of the accused that he picked up the phone, makes it highly likely that he was at the scene of the murder ir so close that he would know what happened. He admitted this in court, and NOT under duress or torture.

They dont have to be cleared. The onus is on the prosecution to prove the case. There is a difference.

So please advise what evidence proves guilt?

In a nutshell, there isn't ANY evidence that proves guilt of rape and murder. Had the RTP been in possession of any DNA samples that matched the accused, it would have been logical for them to produce it at the trial. They didn't - all they did was to assert that there were samples taken and they matched. Sorry, that doesn't wash with me. Whether the judges concur, I have no idea.

[StealthEnergiser]

I have to say, Wei admitting he was on the beach and took David's phone is bad... They were supposed to both be asleep in their room. I still don't think that the B2 killed David and Hannah but I do think they know much more than they are saying. No, the phone doesn't prove anything more than theft... Still this is not good.

I am still not convinced because he hasn't done too much wrong he has told the truth that he found the phone.

I am sure if he was involved in the crime he would never have mentioned the phone.

Also remember the video of the running man with what looked like a phone in his hand , who is the running man ?

I do agree there is a lot more we are not hearing but from what has been shown to date It still looks like they were framed up for the murders.

[ThaiWai]

OJ had socks in his bedroom soaked with his wife's blood. Jurys response..."yawn". One broken cellphone ain't a smoking gun.

[spike]

It is pretty shocking to see what David Miller's family did yesterday.

It would be interesting to know exactly what their motivations are and exactly what they were told about the investigation and supposed evidence against the B2. Surely they can't believe the RTP's version 100%, anybody with even a smidgen of intelligence can see it makes zero sense.

The development about the phone does however shed some light on what time he supposedly went home. Surely some cctv could show his to be a lie or not. But as the trial is done i think that particular loose end will be used to finish him sadly.

A disgusting, shambolic excuse for a trial just got worse. Lord help us if we ever get in a similar situation here.

Give the family a little bit of credit...as they are more clued in than you will ever be. You're speculation is just that...speculation...some would call your speculation "arm chair quarterbacking".

[bamukloy]

Could police have 'planted' the phone? Initially, they said the found phone belonged to Hannah, then they changed their story.

When the defendant (note: one defendant, not two) claims he found the phone on the beach, what time did that happen ....before the crime? after?

If he made that claim during torture, than it means absolutely nothing. He could admit to being The Pope under torture.

The worst the phone incident shows, is one of the defendants might be a petty thief who took something off a beach.

Does this refer to the question you asked?...

"Today, Wai Phyo testified in court he found an iPhone on the beach around 4am in the morning on 15th Sep 2014. Wai Phyo's friend testified on Oct 14 "

Stealth Energizer posted that from Andy Halls report.

Am i missing something here? The defendant said he found the phone around 4am. Werent they supposed to have been asleep in bed at that time?

Also, I thought it was reported earlier that it was the defenants friend who went back looking for the items?

If the defendent admits to wondering around at 4am, it does put a different spin on things. For one, he was supposedly plastered drunk, but then 2 hours later he was out and about looking for stuff?

[stephenterry]

I have to say, Wei admitting he was on the beach and took David's phone is bad... They were supposed to both be asleep in their room. I still don't think that the B2 killed David and Hannah but I do think they know much more than they are saying. No, the phone doesn't prove anything more than theft... Still this is not good.

It's likely that in their one year jail stint, they have been warned off about revealing anything about the crime that could point at any other person or persons. That's if, they know anything more than that testified in court. The lack of their DNA on the hoe handle that had Hannah's blood on the blade and the lack of any DNA evidence provided to the court should be enough to cast reasonable doubt that they raped and killed her.

[zoza]

this phone actually proves nothing, the broken phone the police had in their custody was looked at by

David's friend and he clearly says no and shakes his head, now this phone turns up and they say it is David's

and it has travelled via rtp to the rte in the uk to David's family. after the previous none existent care the rtp took

over the custody paperwork are the rtp cheerleaders praying for a miracle and someone has remembered to

furnish the chain of custody documents as on its own it could of come from anyone..and so proves nothing.

[scorecard]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Seems to me personally to reiterate again @pakhead that only significant evidence directing linking accused to murders is police DNA results

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

So trial seems to me to come down to court's position on reliability of police DNA evidence and reliability torture allegations/confessions

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

For accused to be found guilty, court has to believe 'beyond reasonable doubt' accused committed some of many crimes they are charged of.

From Andy Hall:

" Seems to me personally to reiterate again @pakhead that only significant evidence directing linking accused to murders is police DNA results "

With great respect to Andy, I find this a strange comment, my understanding was that:

- The initial DNA results presented by the RTP was shot down in flames and for very good reasons.

- The DNA results (from the re-testing pushed by the defense and ordered by the court, and involving testing by and evidence spoken in court by Khunying Porntip indicated there was no match to the 2 boys.

Am I missing something?

[Gweiloman]

I think most of you have missed one rather significant point.

From the Sky news article:

He said he picked it out of the sand some distance from the murder scene and took it home but he could not open it as it was locked with a passcode.

"The next day we heard about the murders and we were worried it might belong to someone involved," he told the court.

"My friend smashed up the phone and threw it into the undergrowth behind our hut."

If WP was one of the murderers, then he surely would not have then taken the phone, right?

It is also possible that the location of the dropped phone was the original scene of the crime (which would suggest that it happened before 4 am). MM mentioned early on that he left the B2 at about 1 am. WP mentioned that he went to look for the guitar and found the phone at 4 am. Could the B2 have left the scene at say 2 am, went back to their quarters (drunk as they said) and WP came out later at 4 am to look for the guitar that they left behind? It's not inconceivable that they forgot about the guitar in their state of intoxication.

So the scenario could be as such:

- B2 + MM smoking and playing guitar on the beach

- MM leaves at 1 am

- B2 leaves at 2 am, leaving behind the guitar

- crime happens between 2 - 4 am at the place where the B2 were sat

- one of the perps took the guitar with him

- WP, realising he left the guitar at the beach, goes down to retrieve it at 4 am

- no guitar but he finds an iPhone on the beach which he picks up (finder's keeper's and no one can really blame him)

- next day, one of the real perps gives the guitar to the RTP as "proof" that one of the owners are one of the culprits - this explains how early on, there are pictures and videos of RTP holding up a guitar

- WP, having picked up a phone the previous night, panics and naively tells a friend who equally naively tries to break it and dump in close to where they reside

The reported fact from sky news above is enough to cast reasonable doubt as to whether the B2 actually committed the crime.

[rethaier]

Andy Hall

Today, Wai Phyo testified in court he found an iPhone on the beach around 4am in the morning on 15th Sep 2014. Wai Phyo's friend testified on Oct 14 2014 previously in a pre-trial hearing that he has smashed this phone up and dumped it behind his house after Wai Phyo found it and gave it to him as was worried whose it was and that it may be related for the murders. That's all that has come to light today. Wai Phyo testified today he didn't know whether the phone the prosecution and police have in their possession and which allegedly matches the IMEI of David Miller's phone (as confirmed only by the deceased's parents, although the prosecution claim the UK government confirmed this phone as David's phone but the UK government deny they ever confirmed such information to the Thai Government) is the phone he found in the early morning of 15th Sep 2014 whilst out alone looking for his guitar and clothes. Wai Phyo denied that he took the mobile phone from the same place where the bodies of the deceased were found. Hope that clears up what was discussed today in court.

https://www.facebook.com/andy.hall.3110?fref=nf

One must wonder why they felt the need to destroy the phone.

[Gweiloman]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Seems to me personally to reiterate again @pakhead that only significant evidence directing linking accused to murders is police DNA results

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

So trial seems to me to come down to court's position on reliability of police DNA evidence and reliability torture allegations/confessions

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

For accused to be found guilty, court has to believe 'beyond reasonable doubt' accused committed some of many crimes they are charged of.

From Andy Hall:

" Seems to me personally to reiterate again @pakhead that only significant evidence directing linking accused to murders is police DNA results "

With great respect to Andy, I find this a strange comment, my understanding was that:

- The initial DNA results presented by the RTP was shot down in flames and for very good reasons.

- The DNA results (from the re-testing pushed by the defense and ordered by the court, and involving testing by and evidence spoken in court by Khunying Porntip indicated there was no match to the 2 boys.

Am I missing something?

He could be referring to the RTP's "claim" that semen samples were found in/on Hannah.

[seahorse]

I'm not sure the phone itself is probative of anything in the case. If Wei Phyo admitted that he, or someone else, damaged the phone and tried to hide it, that's somewhat incriminating, but only in a circumstantial way. The case comes down to the DNA sample taken off Hannah's body, the chain of custody on that evidence, the DNA testing of the sample and how much credibility the Court extends to the police in the taking, handling and testing of that sample. Nothing else matters.

The problem with the phone is that it makes a connection where there previously was none. Most of us feared a conviction despite a total lack of evidence. The phone gives them a crumb.

It only ties Wei to the crime scene. Wei admitted he took it, and then testified someone damaged it and tried to hide it. His defense counsel didn't do a very good job if that let him testify to that. Still, that's not really evidence of involvement in the crime. The phone itself is meaningless, and that's why the police didn't impound it as evidence. If you read Andy Hall's comments above, he also agrees that the case comes down to whether the Court believes the DNA testing results submitted into evidence by the police. That's the only proffered evidence that ties the defendants to the crime.

I fear that this was a mistake by the defence. This could be the excuse the judge needs to convict. The prosecution had nothing until this point.

Why would you volunteer this information? Why would you dump the phone next to your accommodation? What are the chances of "just finding" David's phone?

I think Wei knows more than he is prepared to say because he knows he is up against some powerful people and he is in fear of losing his life.