Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[stephenterry]

this phone actually proves nothing, the broken phone the police had in their custody was looked at by

David's friend and he clearly says no and shakes his head, now this phone turns up and they say it is David's

and it has travelled via rtp to the rte in the uk to David's family. after the previous none existent care the rtp took

over the custody paperwork are the rtp cheerleaders praying for a miracle and someone has remembered to

furnish the chain of custody documents as on its own it could of come from anyone..and so proves nothing.

IMO, the timing of this revelation is extremely suspicious, and probably orchestrated by Thai authorities to maximise the impact. Another example of the Miller family being manipulated - and a very devious one at that?

[fritzzz25]

And here is how HARD it is to change the IMEI number of a phone.

http://firstposttech.blogspot.ca/2014/10/iphoneimeinumberchanger.html

"Why Should I Use It

You May Be Thinking That Why I Should Use Mobile Imei Number Changer. The Answer To Your Question Is That If You Change Your Mobile Imei Number Than You Can Unblock Your Phone If It Is Blocked By Your Operator.It Helps You If You Have A Stolen Phone... (or if you need to fabricate evidence in a murder trial)
If You Use This Software Than You Remain Safe.."

Edited October 12, 2015 by fritzzz25

[bamukloy]

this phone actually proves nothing, the broken phone the police had in their custody was looked at by

David's friend and he clearly says no and shakes his head, now this phone turns up and they say it is David's

and it has travelled via rtp to the rte in the uk to David's family. after the previous none existent care the rtp took

over the custody paperwork are the rtp cheerleaders praying for a miracle and someone has remembered to

furnish the chain of custody documents as on its own it could of come from anyone..and so proves nothing.

You are right in that assumption, the phone is not the big question.. but the kicker is the defendent admitting in his own testimony that he was wondering around the scene at 4am..which contradicts the earlier story.

Also if you remember when they were taken into custody, back then, the methods of torture changed, got added to with each day, seemingly getting more fantastical with each time it was brought up.

And they wait until the last day to reveal this latest sexual assualt thing. Wow

Could it be the case that many of the incosistencies can be put down to bad/incomplete reporting?

Or is it time to rethink things?

Edited October 12, 2015 by bamukloy

[Darkknight666]

I absolutely don't think the B2 killed them, as I said above.. I also don't believe anything about the phone from the Thai Embassy at the last moment....especially without anything other than hearsay to verify it. Maybe David's family knows more than anyone else, maybe they have even spoke to the friends who were on Tao that night... Or maybe this is yet another scandalous tactic by Thai authorities. The waters are so muddied I don't think anyone will every really know what happened.

[StealthEnergiser]

[fritzzz25]

He admitted he found A phone on the beach. He admitted he smashed A phone the next day. Can the prosecution PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that the phone is the EXACT same one he handled. As you can see, one can change an IMEI number quite easily, and it isn't too hard to get phone parts for an iphone to piece one together to use as "evidence".

Unless they can bring in an engineer from Apple who can examine the phone to see if it has been electronically tampered with and say with EXACT certainty that nothing has been altered, I cannot see how this phone can be even be anything but a distraction.

Edited October 12, 2015 by fritzzz25

[bamukloy]

He admitted he found A phone on the beach. He admitted he smashed A phone the next day. Can the prosecution PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that the phone is the EXACT same one he handled. As you can see, one can change an IMEI number quite easily, and it isn't too hard to get phone parts for an iphone to piece one together to use as "evidence".

Unless they can bring in an engineer from Apple who can examine the phone to see if it has been electronically tampered with and say with EXACT certainty that nothing has been altered, I cannot see how this phone can be even be anything but a distraction.

Forget the phone...his own testimony of finding it "around 4am" IMO is the most alarming thing.

[sarahy]

British Family Intervenes In Thai Murders Trial

LONDON: -- David Miller's family take receipt of a package from the Thai Embassy in London which they claim contains vital evidence.

The family of British murder victim David Miller, who died on the Thai island of Koh Tao a year ago, have intervened in the trial to try and prove their son's phone was in the possession of one of the accused.

In a dramatic twist in the final two hours of testimony, the prosecution took receipt of a package from the Thai Embassy in London, which they said confirmed the unique IMEI number of a phone found near the lodgings of one of the accused Burmese migrant workers.

Wei Phyo, 22, has not denied finding a phone on the beach on the night of the murders.

He said he picked it out of the sand some distance from the murder scene and took it home but he could not open it as it was locked with a passcode.

"The next day we heard about the murders and we were worried it might belong to someone involved," he told the court.

"My friend smashed up the phone and threw it into the undergrowth behind our hut."

The confirmation of ownership of the broken phone adds to the considerable circumstantial evidence stacked against Wei Phyo and his friend Zaw Lin, also 22.

Full story: http://news.sky.com/story/1567511/british-family-intervenes-in-thai-murders-trial

-- sky NEWS 2015-10-12

Please note this article was truncated in error by the editors so it does not make sense: Here is the full article as it should have been: as for the timing, well, what can one say?

The family of British murder victim David Miller, who died in Koh Tao a year ago, have intervened in the trial to prove their son's phone was in the possession of one of the men accused of killing him.

In a dramatic twist in the final two hours of testimony in the case, the prosecution took receipt of a package from the Thai Embassy in London, which they said confirmed the unique identifying IMEI number of a phone found near the lodgings of one of the accused Burmese migrant workers belonged to Mr Miller.

Mr Miller's family had apparently secured the IMEI number from David's computer and passed it to the Thai Embassy, after confusion in court as to whether the British authorities had helped the prosecution confirm ownership. The prosecution said they had, but only verbally. A defence witness said they hadn't because this case could end in the death penalty.

22 year-old Wei Phyo has not denied finding a phone on the beach on the night of the murders. He said he picked it out of the sand some distance from the murder scene and took it home but he couldn't open it as it was locked with a passcode.

"The next day we heard about the murders and we were worried it might belong to someone involved. My friend smashed up the phone and threw it into the undergrowth behind our hut," Wei Phyo told the court.

The confirmation of ownership of the broken phone adds to the considerable circumstantial evidence stacked against Wei Phyo and his friend Zaw Lin who is also accused of raping Ms Witheridge and then killing both the British holiday makers in the early hours of September 14th 2014.

They were seen on CCTV on the same beach a few hours before. One of the accused resembles a man seen running away from the beach, although British video forensics experts have said it was not him.

The prosecution claims DNA evidence places both men at the scene of the crime and responsible for raping Ms Witheridge and bludgeoning both victims. But the defence has called a series of witnesses to discredit the DNA evidence, including the head of Thailand's Central Institute of Forensic Science.

In his testimony Wei Phyo repeatedly said he was innocent, and claimed he was sexually, physically and psychologically abused to make him confess to the crimes.

He said he was kicked, punched and slapped; stripped naked and his private parts assaulted and threatened with dismemberment, electrocution and death.

Wei Phyo and Zaw Lin did not retract the confessions for several weeks. Wei Phyo said they were threatened with a lethal injection by prison guards if they did. But a human rights lawyer eventually won their trust and they passed her a secret note.

The verdict will be given on December 24th.

[Linky]

It is pretty shocking to see what David Miller's family did yesterday.

It would be interesting to know exactly what their motivations are and exactly what they were told about the investigation and supposed evidence against the B2. Surely they can't believe the RTP's version 100%, anybody with even a smidgen of intelligence can see it makes zero sense.

The development about the phone does however shed some light on what time he supposedly went home. Surely some cctv could show his to be a lie or not. But as the trial is done i think that particular loose end will be used to finish him sadly.

A disgusting, shambolic excuse for a trial just got worse. Lord help us if we ever get in a similar situation here.

Give the family a little bit of credit...as they are more clued in than you will ever be. You're speculation is just that...speculation...some would call your speculation "arm chair quarterbacking".

That is blatantly wrong. The family are no more clued in than anyone else.

[sarahy]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Seems to me personally to reiterate again @pakhead that only significant evidence directing linking accused to murders is police DNA results

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

So trial seems to me to come down to court's position on reliability of police DNA evidence and reliability torture allegations/confessions

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

For accused to be found guilty, court has to believe 'beyond reasonable doubt' accused committed some of many crimes they are charged of.

From Andy Hall:

" Seems to me personally to reiterate again @pakhead that only significant evidence directing linking accused to murders is police DNA results "

With great respect to Andy, I find this a strange comment, my understanding was that:

- The initial DNA results presented by the RTP was shot down in flames and for very good reasons.

- The DNA results (from the re-testing pushed by the defense and ordered by the court, and involving testing by and evidence spoken in court by Khunying Porntip indicated there was no match to the 2 boys.

Am I missing something?

The initial DNA results were not shot down in flames.

Their authenticity was questioned by defence witnesses and the Norfolk coroner.

The RTP said they found DNA in semen inside Hannah from both men.

In the vagina and the anus.

The British coroner said when the bodies were returned to the Uk they found no evidence of semen inside the anus, and indeed no evidence of anal rape, no bite marks on Hannah where the RTP pathologist said he also found DNA from both men, and couldn't find any semen they could test in the vagina, but the bodies had been partially embalmed before they were returned and that might have destroyed any DNA in the vagina.

The samples allegedly taken by the RTP forensics were said to have been used up, and only traces remained. The defence still wanted to test the traces. But it was then made clear to them if they tested it, the results would be returned to the RTP first, then the court, before the defence team got to see it. The defence team decided that if it had to go through so many people along the way they would not retest!

But it means the prosecutions insistence that Wei Phyo and Zaw Lin's semen was inside Hannah has not been disproved. But a lot of the other DNA claims have potentially been discredited.

Also, the police said they examined the hoe for finger prints with a magnifying glass, saw none, but did not test it for DNA. CIFS then tested it for DNA and found Hannah and David's DNA on the handle, and a third incomplete male profile, which could not be matched to WP and ZL.

It is confusing but suffice it to say no one has been able to disprove the semen allegation.

[lucky11]

It is pretty shocking to see what David Miller's family did yesterday.

It would be interesting to know exactly what their motivations are and exactly what they were told about the investigation and supposed evidence against the B2. Surely they can't believe the RTP's version 100%, anybody with even a smidgen of intelligence can see it makes zero sense.

The development about the phone does however shed some light on what time he supposedly went home. Surely some cctv could show his to be a lie or not. But as the trial is done i think that particular loose end will be used to finish him sadly.

A disgusting, shambolic excuse for a trial just got worse. Lord help us if we ever get in a similar situation here.

This confirms my belief that these two are the true rapists and killers.

So you can't believe the RTP's version of events, you say. It is not their version actually as one of the accused ADMITTED that he had the phone and got his friend to smash it up and throw it away near his lodgings after he couldn't open it up!!

I think that this is the final nail in their coffin (literally hopefully) as their story that they were simply on the beach playing guitar, smoking and drinking and they didn't go anywhere near the murder scene has been well and truly shown to be a lie, as how else did they get his phone? They have also admitted to sexually violating Hannah's body (which with the bite marks on her breast imply rape) and I think the majority will be eating humble pie soon as they come to terms with the fact that I have been vindicated and they have been duped from the start, thanks to these interfering Human Rights wasters telling them to lie, retract their statements and deny everything.

The British families clearly think the same way as I have all along and I hope they are satisfied with justice once these two scum bags are sent down/executed for their heinous crimes. Well done the RTP for getting the real perpetrators even though they cocked it up all the way through and nearly let them off the hook.

I wonder how many posters are going to own up that they were wrong?

[JarekN]

This whole case is a joke, the phone is just thrown in to confuse people, what happend to the DNA evdiance that was to be solid? NOTHING, there was no solid evidance, the case from start to now has been handled by wanna be investigators and police officers who have no clue of what areal investigation looks like and are probably paid very well to make sure the REAL criminal never gets on stand... Welcome to Thailand where money can buy you ANYTHING you want.

[HUH]

this phone actually proves nothing, the broken phone the police had in their custody was looked at by

David's friend and he clearly says no and shakes his head, now this phone turns up and they say it is David's

and it has travelled via rtp to the rte in the uk to David's family. after the previous none existent care the rtp took

over the custody paperwork are the rtp cheerleaders praying for a miracle and someone has remembered to

furnish the chain of custody documents as on its own it could of come from anyone..and so proves nothing.

You are right in that assumption, the phone is not the big question.. but the kicker is the defendent admitting in his own testimony that he was wondering around the scene at 4am..which contradicts the earlier story.

Also if you remember when they were taken into custody, back then, the methods of torture changed, got added to with each day, seemingly getting more fantastical with each time it was brought up.

And they wait until the last day to reveal this latest sexual assualt thing. Wow

Could it be the case that many of the incosistencies can be put down to bad/incomplete reporting?

Or is it time to rethink things?

The sexual assault was revealed on the last day as that was the first time he had given testimony on the torture, the other defendant did not suffer this and so did not make this claim, thats why its a new allegation.

As you can see this last day of the trial has revealed new info.

I do agree with you however that wandering around at 4am, well thats certainly news to me and appears to conflict with previous statements they made.

But the biggie in this case is the DNA evidence or lack of it to be more precise. Together with the missing evidence that should have been submitted to the court, Hannah's clothes, the blonde hair found in her hand, the list is long

[Linky]

Follow

45]

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Seems to me personally to reiterate again @pakhead that only significant evidence directing linking accused to murders is police DNA results

Follow

45]

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

So trial seems to me to come down to court's position on reliability of police DNA evidence and reliability torture allegations/confessions

45]

Follow Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

For accused to be found guilty, court has to believe 'beyond reasonable doubt' accused committed some of many crimes they are charged of.

From Andy Hall:

" Seems to me personally to reiterate again @pakhead that only significant evidence directing linking accused to murders is police DNA results "

With great respect to Andy, I find this a strange comment, my understanding was that:

- The initial DNA results presented by the RTP was shot down in flames and for very good reasons.

- The DNA results (from the re-testing pushed by the defense and ordered by the court, and involving testing by and evidence spoken in court by Khunying Porntip indicated there was no match to the 2 boys.

Am I missing something?

The initial DNA results were not shot down in flames.

Their authenticity was questioned by defence witnesses and the Norfolk coroner.

The RTP said they found DNA in semen inside Hannah from both men.

In the vagina and the anus.

The British coroner said when the bodies were returned to the Uk they found no evidence of semen inside the anus, and indeed no evidence of anal rape, no bite marks on Hannah where the RTP pathologist said he also found DNA from both men, and couldn't find any semen they could test in the vagina, but the bodies had been partially embalmed before they were returned and that might have destroyed any DNA in the vagina.

The samples allegedly taken by the RTP forensics were said to have been used up, and only traces remained. The defence still wanted to test the traces. But it was then made clear to them if they tested it, the results would be returned to the RTP first, then the court, before the defence team got to see it. The defence team decided that if it had to go through so many people along the way they would not retest!

But it means the prosecutions insistence that Wei Phyo and Zaw Lin's semen was inside Hannah has not been disproved. But a lot of the other DNA claims have potentially been discredited.

Also, the police said they examined the hoe for finger prints with a magnifying glass, saw none, but did not test it for DNA. CIFS then tested it for DNA and found Hannah and David's DNA on the handle, and a third incomplete male profile, which could not be matched to WP and ZL.

It is confusing but suffice it to say no one has been able to disprove the semen allegation.

You dont have to disprove the semen allegation. It is the prosecution that must prove the semen is from the B2.

To prove it they must show how it was taken, tested, chain of custody. Then present all that in court with evidence from the person that deciphered the dna readings.

If any of that is not done then the dna evidence does not reach a high enough standard to be considered as fact.

[sarahy]

I think most of you have missed one rather significant point.

From the Sky news article:

He said he picked it out of the sand some distance from the murder scene and took it home but he could not open it as it was locked with a passcode.

"The next day we heard about the murders and we were worried it might belong to someone involved," he told the court.

"My friend smashed up the phone and threw it into the undergrowth behind our hut."

If WP was one of the murderers, then he surely would not have then taken the phone, right?

It is also possible that the location of the dropped phone was the original scene of the crime (which would suggest that it happened before 4 am). MM mentioned early on that he left the B2 at about 1 am. WP mentioned that he went to look for the guitar and found the phone at 4 am. Could the B2 have left the scene at say 2 am, went back to their quarters (drunk as they said) and WP came out later at 4 am to look for the guitar that they left behind? It's not inconceivable that they forgot about the guitar in their state of intoxication.

So the scenario could be as such:

- B2 + MM smoking and playing guitar on the beach

- MM leaves at 1 am

- B2 leaves at 2 am, leaving behind the guitar

- crime happens between 2 - 4 am at the place where the B2 were sat

- one of the perps took the guitar with him

- WP, realising he left the guitar at the beach, goes down to retrieve it at 4 am

- no guitar but he finds an iPhone on the beach which he picks up (finder's keeper's and no one can really blame him)

- next day, one of the real perps gives the guitar to the RTP as "proof" that one of the owners are one of the culprits - this explains how early on, there are pictures and videos of RTP holding up a guitar

- WP, having picked up a phone the previous night, panics and naively tells a friend who equally naively tries to break it and dump in close to where they reside

The reported fact from sky news above is enough to cast reasonable doubt as to whether the B2 actually committed the crime.

Extra info re the above is that:

MM worked at the AC Bar.

He went back to get a bottle of wine from somewhere undisclosed at about 1am so they stayed later on the beach.

The B2 went for a swim about 2am after hiding their guitar under a table at the AC Bar.

They left their clothes on the beach.

When they came back their clothes were gone.

They went to the bar and the guitar was gone. Nothing was where they left it.

They went home. They went to sleep then WP got up and went back to beach he says looking for his shoes because he really needed them. Then he found the phone he says.

Now he could have got up and been involved in the crime and that is how he got the phone. But in this day of tracked phones he might have thought twice about it.

Equally someone might have killed David and dragged his body to the rocks and the phone fell out along the way, An awful coincidence if so for WP but possible.

WP said in the renaction the police told him to point to where he found the phone, telling him where, but he says that was not where he found the phone. He told the court where.

If he could not unlock the phone how could he know it was David's? Unless he did kil him?

If he found out there was a murder the next day he might well try to dispose of it thinking it could have come from someone involved.

But would he really dispose of it outside his own window. He may be young but is he that daft when there is a whole ocean outside.

Or was it planted to justify his arrest.

So many questions and only they know. But this is either really good police work in finding pieces of the puzzle or a dreadful, awful coincidence for this lad.

Either way it does not place him at the crime scene and remains circumstantial.

[canuckamuck]

The location of the phone may have been quite a distance from where the bodies were found. We have no witnesses so no scenario about what occurred. Perhaps David's encounter began further down the beach, an altercation that caused him to drop his phone. Maybe there was a bit of a chase. Maybe the killers initially took the phone and then were told to toss it. Maybe it was lost in the scramble to rearrange the crime scene. Maybe the killers gave the real phone to the cops later as part of the frame up and now this phone is being claimed to be the one tossed in the bushes. No chain of custody has been shown.

All we know is that The defendant found a phone and tossed it somewhere in fear of becoming a scapegoat.

[StealthEnergiser]

• 

  Andy Hall The defense lawyers are surely confident that Dr Pornthip and her institutes DNA expert's testimony at court was sufficient for this trial, alongside their cross examining of the prosecution witnesses? This testimony was quite comprehensive highlighting challenges, inconsistencies and validity concerns about the Thai police DNA evidence. Jane Taupin has been an excellent source of renowned international forensic advice to the defense team also. Thanks Rich and Robert for your interesting debate and sharing of opinion here wink emoticon Jonathan Head

https://www.facebook.com/andy.hall.3110?fref=nf

[sarahy]

And here is how HARD it is to change the IMEI number of a phone.

http://firstposttech.blogspot.ca/2014/10/iphoneimeinumberchanger.html

"Why Should I Use It

You May Be Thinking That Why I Should Use Mobile Imei Number Changer. The Answer To Your Question Is That If You Change Your Mobile Imei Number Than You Can Unblock Your Phone If It Is Blocked By Your Operator.It Helps You If You Have A Stolen Phone... (or if you need to fabricate evidence in a murder trial)

If You Use This Software Than You Remain Safe.."

Very interesting. I had no idea you could change an IMEI number at all.

[z42]

It is pretty shocking to see what David Miller's family did yesterday.

It would be interesting to know exactly what their motivations are and exactly what they were told about the investigation and supposed evidence against the B2. Surely they can't believe the RTP's version 100%, anybody with even a smidgen of intelligence can see it makes zero sense.

The development about the phone does however shed some light on what time he supposedly went home. Surely some cctv could show his to be a lie or not. But as the trial is done i think that particular loose end will be used to finish him sadly.

A disgusting, shambolic excuse for a trial just got worse. Lord help us if we ever get in a similar situation here.

Give the family a little bit of credit...as they are more clued in than you will ever be. You're speculation is just that...speculation...some would call your speculation "arm chair quarterbacking".

Give them credit for what exactly? They know probably the same as we do, probably even less as they likely do not fully grasp just how things are done in Thailand.

What do you think the RTP told the met, who in turn told the families, do you think they mentioned about the possible connections to the AC bar clan, and do you honestly think the met passed on the theory that the reason for rape and murder of 2 people was because the alleged perps were "horny"? Get a grip mate, you'd be outraged by such a nonsense theory. This case is serious business, and theories like that just make it look farcical.

Most of what the RTP presented in court is hearsay evidence and can't be proven. The only thing that anybody with an IQ outside of the single digits can see is that the RTP made a dogs dinner of the investigation (through their methodology and what they chose to look at and what they chose to ignore, stated in court by the investigation team / prosecution).

Give the nonsense a rest mate. So I will ask again because it is relevant, is why could the Miller family choose to investigate phone ownership while at the same time stay absolutely quiet about the FACT that DNA on the weapon supposedly used to butcher their son has ZERO DNA of either alleged killer on it? And also considering their re enactment supposedly showing them swing it multiple times into the bodies of the victims.

Nothing here adds up, I think smashing up a phone and leaving it in your own garden is stupid beyond belief, anybody with any amount of intelligence would have tossed it in the big blue. I don't know what to make of this latest development, but it certainly doesn't detract from the fact that the prosecution has not built a case of any substance against either of the men on trial who have been locked up with a ball and chain for over a year now.

Edited October 12, 2015 by z42

[lucky11]

It is pretty shocking to see what David Miller's family did yesterday.

It would be interesting to know exactly what their motivations are and exactly what they were told about the investigation and supposed evidence against the B2. Surely they can't believe the RTP's version 100%, anybody with even a smidgen of intelligence can see it makes zero sense.

The development about the phone does however shed some light on what time he supposedly went home. Surely some cctv could show his to be a lie or not. But as the trial is done i think that particular loose end will be used to finish him sadly.

A disgusting, shambolic excuse for a trial just got worse. Lord help us if we ever get in a similar situation here.

This confirms my belief that these two are the true rapists and killers.

So you can't believe the RTP's version of events, you say. It is not their version actually as one of the accused ADMITTED that he had the phone and got his friend to smash it up and throw it away near his lodgings after he couldn't open it up!!

I think that this is the final nail in their coffin (literally hopefully) as their story that they were simply on the beach playing guitar, smoking and drinking and they didn't go anywhere near the murder scene has been well and truly shown to be a lie, as how else did they get his phone? They have also admitted to sexually violating Hannah's body (which with the bite marks on her breast imply rape) and I think the majority will be eating humble pie soon as they come to terms with the fact that I have been vindicated and they have been duped from the start, thanks to these interfering Human Rights wasters telling them to lie, retract their statements and deny everything.

The British families clearly think the same way as I have all along and I hope they are satisfied with justice once these two scum bags are sent down/executed for their heinous crimes. Well done the RTP for getting the real perpetrators even though they cocked it up all the way through and nearly let them off the hook.

I wonder how many posters are going to own up that they were wrong?

So tell me, why are the B2's DNA not on the weapon...?.........BUT.............

We have read an unknown persons is.....

Your thoughts...?

Never trust a liar I say.

The only time they have told the truth is in the original confessions and when the admitted to sexually violating Hannah - that is enough for me!!

The DNA evidence doesn't prove or disprove anything I'm afraid, not to me anyway.

They were clearly at the murder scene despite their denials/blatant lies or are you going to call the Burmese who had David's phone (he has never denied this don't forget) a liar for telling the truth because it doesn't fit into your story of their innocence. They have well and truly incriminated themselves and deserve all that comes their way, disgusting vermin!!.

[Gweiloman]

It is pretty shocking to see what David Miller's family did yesterday.

It would be interesting to know exactly what their motivations are and exactly what they were told about the investigation and supposed evidence against the B2. Surely they can't believe the RTP's version 100%, anybody with even a smidgen of intelligence can see it makes zero sense.

The development about the phone does however shed some light on what time he supposedly went home. Surely some cctv could show his to be a lie or not. But as the trial is done i think that particular loose end will be used to finish him sadly.

A disgusting, shambolic excuse for a trial just got worse. Lord help us if we ever get in a similar situation here.

This confirms my belief that these two are the true rapists and killers.

So you can't believe the RTP's version of events, you say. It is not their version actually as one of the accused ADMITTED that he had the phone and got his friend to smash it up and throw it away near his lodgings after he couldn't open it up!!

I think that this is the final nail in their coffin (literally hopefully) as their story that they were simply on the beach playing guitar, smoking and drinking and they didn't go anywhere near the murder scene has been well and truly shown to be a lie, as how else did they get his phone? They have also admitted to sexually violating Hannah's body (which with the bite marks on her breast imply rape) and I think the majority will be eating humble pie soon as they come to terms with the fact that I have been vindicated and they have been duped from the start, thanks to these interfering Human Rights wasters telling them to lie, retract their statements and deny everything.

The British families clearly think the same way as I have all along and I hope they are satisfied with justice once these two scum bags are sent down/executed for their heinous crimes. Well done the RTP for getting the real perpetrators even though they cocked it up all the way through and nearly let them off the hook.

I wonder how many posters are going to own up that they were wrong?

So tell me, why are the B2's DNA not on the weapon...?.........BUT.............

We have read an unknown persons is.....

Your thoughts...?

Never trust a liar I say.

The only time they have told the truth is in the original confessions and when the admitted to sexually violating Hannah - that is enough for me!!

The DNA evidence doesn't prove or disprove anything I'm afraid, not to me anyway.

They were clearly at the murder scene despite their denials/blatant lies or are you going to call the Burmese who had David's phone (he has never denied this don't forget) a liar for telling the truth because it doesn't fit into your story of their innocence. They have well and truly incriminated themselves and deserve all that comes their way, disgusting vermin!!.

Don't rise to the bait ladies and gentlemen. This is a blatant troll / baiting post. Just ignore as vermin are not worth wasting your time on, other than to spray insecticide or lay down rat poison.

[realenglish1]

It is pretty shocking to see what David Miller's family did yesterday.

It would be interesting to know exactly what their motivations are and exactly what they were told about the investigation and supposed evidence against the B2. Surely they can't believe the RTP's version 100%, anybody with even a smidgen of intelligence can see it makes zero sense.

The development about the phone does however shed some light on what time he supposedly went home. Surely some cctv could show his to be a lie or not. But as the trial is done i think that particular loose end will be used to finish him sadly.

A disgusting, shambolic excuse for a trial just got worse. Lord help us if we ever get in a similar situation here.

This confirms my belief that these two are the true rapists and killers.

So you can't believe the RTP's version of events, you say. It is not their version actually as one of the accused ADMITTED that he had the phone and got his friend to smash it up and throw it away near his lodgings after he couldn't open it up!!

I think that this is the final nail in their coffin (literally hopefully) as their story that they were simply on the beach playing guitar, smoking and drinking and they didn't go anywhere near the murder scene has been well and truly shown to be a lie, as how else did they get his phone? They have also admitted to sexually violating Hannah's body (which with the bite marks on her breast imply rape) and I think the majority will be eating humble pie soon as they come to terms with the fact that I have been vindicated and they have been duped from the start, thanks to these interfering Human Rights wasters telling them to lie, retract their statements and deny everything.

The British families clearly think the same way as I have all along and I hope they are satisfied with justice once these two scum bags are sent down/executed for their heinous crimes. Well done the RTP for getting the real perpetrators even though they cocked it up all the way through and nearly let them off the hook.

I wonder how many posters are going to own up that they were wrong?

So tell me, why are the B2's DNA not on the weapon...?.........BUT.............

We have read an unknown persons is.....

Your thoughts...?

Never trust a liar I say.

The only time they have told the truth is in the original confessions and when the admitted to sexually violating Hannah - that is enough for me!!

The DNA evidence doesn't prove or disprove anything I'm afraid, not to me anyway.

They were clearly at the murder scene despite their denials/blatant lies or are you going to call the Burmese who had David's phone (he has never denied this don't forget) a liar for telling the truth because it doesn't fit into your story of their innocence. They have well and truly incriminated themselves and deserve all that comes their way, disgusting vermin!!.

I am so glad you are not on a jury of my pears

[leeneeds]

Making comments about a trial that is still in motion, without being there, to see view hear all the evidence is also paramount to rumour mongering, why not wait until the triall is over, and I am sure any irregularities will be examined by the defence,and prosecution for that matter, and or petition for a re trial, trying to second guess what is what when you are not part of either team (prosecution or defence), A very sad reflection on expats

[grumpyoldman]

I think most of you have missed one rather significant point.

From the Sky news article:

He said he picked it out of the sand some distance from the murder scene and took it home but he could not open it as it was locked with a passcode.

"The next day we heard about the murders and we were worried it might belong to someone involved," he told the court.

"My friend smashed up the phone and threw it into the undergrowth behind our hut."

If WP was one of the murderers, then he surely would not have then taken the phone, right?

It is also possible that the location of the dropped phone was the original scene of the crime (which would suggest that it happened before 4 am). MM mentioned early on that he left the B2 at about 1 am. WP mentioned that he went to look for the guitar and found the phone at 4 am. Could the B2 have left the scene at say 2 am, went back to their quarters (drunk as they said) and WP came out later at 4 am to look for the guitar that they left behind? It's not inconceivable that they forgot about the guitar in their state of intoxication.

So the scenario could be as such:

- B2 + MM smoking and playing guitar on the beach

- MM leaves at 1 am

- B2 leaves at 2 am, leaving behind the guitar

- crime happens between 2 - 4 am at the place where the B2 were sat

- one of the perps took the guitar with him

- WP, realising he left the guitar at the beach, goes down to retrieve it at 4 am

- no guitar but he finds an iPhone on the beach which he picks up (finder's keeper's and no one can really blame him)

- next day, one of the real perps gives the guitar to the RTP as "proof" that one of the owners are one of the culprits - this explains how early on, there are pictures and videos of RTP holding up a guitar

- WP, having picked up a phone the previous night, panics and naively tells a friend who equally naively tries to break it and dump in close to where they reside

The reported fact from sky news above is enough to cast reasonable doubt as to whether the B2 actually committed the crime.

Extra info re the above is that:

MM worked at the AC Bar.

He went back to get a bottle of wine from somewhere undisclosed at about 1am so they stayed later on the beach.

The B2 went for a swim about 2am after hiding their guitar under a table at the AC Bar.

They left their clothes on the beach.

When they came back their clothes were gone.

They went to the bar and the guitar was gone. Nothing was where they left it.

They went home. They went to sleep then WP got up and went back to beach he says looking for his shoes because he really needed them. Then he found the phone he says.

Now he could have got up and been involved in the crime and that is how he got the phone. But in this day of tracked phones he might have thought twice about it.

Equally someone might have killed David and dragged his body to the rocks and the phone fell out along the way, An awful coincidence if so for WP but possible.

WP said in the renaction the police told him to point to where he found the phone, telling him where, but he says that was not where he found the phone. He told the court where.

If he could not unlock the phone how could he know it was David's? Unless he did kil him?

If he found out there was a murder the next day he might well try to dispose of it thinking it could have come from someone involved.

But would he really dispose of it outside his own window. He may be young but is he that daft when there is a whole ocean outside.

Or was it planted to justify his arrest.

So many questions and only they know. But this is either really good police work in finding pieces of the puzzle or a dreadful, awful coincidence for this lad.

Either way it does not place him at the crime scene and remains circumstantial.

Even for uneducated Burmese, after raping and killing they take the phone? You or anyone else really believe this?

[Chetzee]

some of you i feel are being rather harsh on the Miller family . As a family member of a hideous crime , i for sure would want all the pertinent evidence brought to light .

now we all know that vast amounts of pertinent evidence had been lost , used up , and not make available for the defence , but the one thing in the power of the miller family was to be able to confirm one way of another that the broken phone was in fact David's .

The fact that this does not look great for one of the suspects is tricky , and you could almost suspect that the whole truth has not been divulged . in my mind at least i am drawn back to the running man , who seemingly held a phone at about the time he was looking for his clothes and guitar .

for those of you not in the know , i am well and truly in the not guilty camp , but we do know the lad is a petty thief , and bad at working out how to deal with a suspected crime scene accessory after the fact .

[Gweiloman]

this phone actually proves nothing, the broken phone the police had in their custody was looked at by

David's friend and he clearly says no and shakes his head, now this phone turns up and they say it is David's

and it has travelled via rtp to the rte in the uk to David's family. after the previous none existent care the rtp took

over the custody paperwork are the rtp cheerleaders praying for a miracle and someone has remembered to

furnish the chain of custody documents as on its own it could of come from anyone..and so proves nothing.

You are right in that assumption, the phone is not the big question.. but the kicker is the defendent admitting in his own testimony that he was wondering around the scene at 4am..which contradicts the earlier story.

Also if you remember when they were taken into custody, back then, the methods of torture changed, got added to with each day, seemingly getting more fantastical with each time it was brought up.

And they wait until the last day to reveal this latest sexual assualt thing. Wow

Could it be the case that many of the incosistencies can be put down to bad/incomplete reporting?

Or is it time to rethink things?

Yes, let's rethink. Claimed possession of stolen phone. Evidence of theft or rape or murder? NO

Claimed DNA match. Verified and substantiated by independent third party? NO

There, I've re-thought. Nothing has changed

[Gweiloman]

He admitted he found A phone on the beach. He admitted he smashed A phone the next day. Can the prosecution PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that the phone is the EXACT same one he handled. As you can see, one can change an IMEI number quite easily, and it isn't too hard to get phone parts for an iphone to piece one together to use as "evidence".

Unless they can bring in an engineer from Apple who can examine the phone to see if it has been electronically tampered with and say with EXACT certainty that nothing has been altered, I cannot see how this phone can be even be anything but a distraction.

Forget the phone...his own testimony of finding it "around 4am" IMO is the most alarming thing.

What's so alarming about it?

[fritzzz25]

"Mr Miller's family had apparently secured the IMEI number from David's computer"

So, was this done forensically with a software that ensures no alteration of the boot record of the computer? If one wants to bring computer evidence into a trial, they have to ensure the data has not been manipulated in any way. The way this is done is with digital forensic software like EnCase. It also has to show that the computer has not been booted up without EnCase attached to ensure data is intact. Again, no chain of evidence on this. AND no proof the the Met Police did this. Which they said they did not do because of it being a death penalty case.......

I can understand the family wants justice, but for them to say "oh hey, we found this on David's computer, here we wrote it down for you on a piece of paper can you make sure the court hears about it" TWO hours before the end of the trial.

"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark" - Shakespeare

Edited October 12, 2015 by fritzzz25

[stephenterry]

It is pretty shocking to see what David Miller's family did yesterday.

It would be interesting to know exactly what their motivations are and exactly what they were told about the investigation and supposed evidence against the B2. Surely they can't believe the RTP's version 100%, anybody with even a smidgen of intelligence can see it makes zero sense.

The development about the phone does however shed some light on what time he supposedly went home. Surely some cctv could show his to be a lie or not. But as the trial is done i think that particular loose end will be used to finish him sadly.

A disgusting, shambolic excuse for a trial just got worse. Lord help us if we ever get in a similar situation here.

This confirms my belief that these two are the true rapists and killers.

So you can't believe the RTP's version of events, you say. It is not their version actually as one of the accused ADMITTED that he had the phone and got his friend to smash it up and throw it away near his lodgings after he couldn't open it up!!

I think that this is the final nail in their coffin (literally hopefully) as their story that they were simply on the beach playing guitar, smoking and drinking and they didn't go anywhere near the murder scene has been well and truly shown to be a lie, as how else did they get his phone? They have also admitted to sexually violating Hannah's body (which with the bite marks on her breast imply rape) and I think the majority will be eating humble pie soon as they come to terms with the fact that I have been vindicated and they have been duped from the start, thanks to these interfering Human Rights wasters telling them to lie, retract their statements and deny everything.

The British families clearly think the same way as I have all along and I hope they are satisfied with justice once these two scum bags are sent down/executed for their heinous crimes. Well done the RTP for getting the real perpetrators even though they cocked it up all the way through and nearly let them off the hook.

I wonder how many posters are going to own up that they were wrong?

Yeah, I was wrong. First I thought you were a troll, now I am certain.

[oldsailor35]

It is pretty shocking to see what David Miller's family did yesterday.

It would be interesting to know exactly what their motivations are and exactly what they were told about the investigation and supposed evidence against the B2. Surely they can't believe the RTP's version 100%, anybody with even a smidgen of intelligence can see it makes zero sense.

The development about the phone does however shed some light on what time he supposedly went home. Surely some cctv could show his to be a lie or not. But as the trial is done i think that particular loose end will be used to finish him sadly.

A disgusting, shambolic excuse for a trial just got worse. Lord help us if we ever get in a similar situation here.

This confirms my belief that these two are the true rapists and killers.

So you can't believe the RTP's version of events, you say. It is not their version actually as one of the accused ADMITTED that he had the phone and got his friend to smash it up and throw it away near his lodgings after he couldn't open it up!!

I think that this is the final nail in their coffin (literally hopefully) as their story that they were simply on the beach playing guitar, smoking and drinking and they didn't go anywhere near the murder scene has been well and truly shown to be a lie, as how else did they get his phone? They have also admitted to sexually violating Hannah's body (which with the bite marks on her breast imply rape) and I think the majority will be eating humble pie soon as they come to terms with the fact that I have been vindicated and they have been duped from the start, thanks to these interfering Human Rights wasters telling them to lie, retract their statements and deny everything.

The British families clearly think the same way as I have all along and I hope they are satisfied with justice once these two scum bags are sent down/executed for their heinous crimes. Well done the RTP for getting the real perpetrators even though they cocked it up all the way through and nearly let them off the hook.

I wonder how many posters are going to own up that they were wrong?

So what exactly is your belief in the fact that the first senior investigating police officer was convinced that the actual murders were MON and a family member. And the fact that the headman, owner of AC bar went into such frantic mode to have this evidence concerning his brother and son, changed, probably to the point of getting the investigating police officer removed.

Edited October 12, 2015 by oldsailor35