Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[grumpyoldman]

What game of chess awaits the media, the "saving face" card will be a major player. For all we know, things will be seen to be done, but in reality who knows what deals and "agreements" have been made.

Hypothetical scenario: The B2 are found guilty, sentenced, justice is seen to be done, perpetrators found, pat on the back to RTP,(face saved) case closed,

several months go by may be a year, attention dies down, B2 released through a back door with a nice "compensation" and nobody is any the wiser.

Its all smoke and mirrors, or is that winks,handshakes and envelopes to cover up incompetency and the previous pay off to destroy/hide evidence by those who were in a financial position to pay for it to go away.

The actual truth, despite all the hot air and "experts" will never be known...........sadly. but hey TIT

This is probably the most intelligent post of the last 15 pages.

99% of the Thai public couldn't give a rats a** about this case anymore, it's old news, who cares, they have the killers (so they think) convict and move on. The only one's that are seeking truth and justice aren't Thais and this is Thailand so who cares about them anyway?

B2 scapegoats from day 1, they'll go down and as RolandRat has posted, they'll do a year and get sent back to Myanmar with a small "take-the-fall" envelope.

[bamukloy]

Did I understand correctly that one of the defendants admits to finding the phone at 4 a.m.? And he still admits to it? To be honest, I haven't been following the case that closely lately. But if that's true, and he's truly innocent, then that's pretty bad luck on his part, isn't it?

And exceptionally good luck on the part of the police, if one would assume the theory that those two men were picked up as scapegoats what a fantastic coincidence that they'd try to frame up the two guys who just happened to had found that phone.

No, no coincidences, obviously they had found other evidence that pointed at those two men before the phone was found

Confirmation on the phone proves that the police had solid grounds to arrest them; the framing theories are now even more detached from reality than before, the insinuations that the Miller family were having doubts about the guilt of the defendants are blown away too.

So far I have completely disagreed with your opinions on this trial. However, I have to a admit the accused standing confession to finding the phone and smashing the phone after hearing about the murders does seem very odd.

A sensible person would also say it would be a fantastic coincidence that they were framing the 2 guys that just happened to find the phone, they also "realised" it might be part of the murders so they attempted to smash is and dump it. what are the odds really?

Also, his behaviour and explanation around the phone is strange. If I innocently found a phone on a beach and then later heard there had been some horrible murders on the same night further down the beach I would not immediately think to myself "wow, I bet that phone belongs to the victim, better dump it in case someone, some day accuses me of those murders,, can't be found with his phone"

In fact I might not even put the 2 together, I would just consider i had found a phone on the beach.. (of course I would attempt to get it back to owner but thats different story).

There are still many points I do not agree with you on and I have not u turned (still think there is not enough to convict these guys) but in this instance I do agree with you it is strange and it does look like something is wrong...

I have been following the trial with interest, and have been 50/50 with my thoughts on what the verdict may be.

But now with this phone business coming to light, I am swaying towards guilty. Has anyone ever thought that there may have been more then just these 2 guys involved? My theory had been that the couple went on the beach to make out, stumbled across by a group of men that decided to rape the girl at the scene, the man tried to fight off the attackers and ended up murdered, they raped the girl and murdered her to stop her identifying the attackers. The men now in custody being part of the attackers.

Plausible, I think.

My theory is there was no rape at all. (Very questionable DNA)

I think there was a loud altercation, maybe due to percieved theft, that attracted the passers-by to the scene. Add alcohol and drugs and its not uncommon for things to escalate.

We have it seen over and over here. Thais attracted like moths to a flame when a farang has a problem with someone/something.

I believe the Thai element came in to assist the Burmese, or even the other way round.

From there on things escalted out of control.

If you went on history of assaults against foriegners in Thailand, with the MO of mob beatdowns from Thais, no one would doubt its quite common.

[RolandRat]

2 young people came to Thailand.

They fell victim to local "gang" mob, mafia whatever,

They lost their lives.

Local Police initially incompetent, later manipulated.

Scapegoats located.

Scapegoats prosecuted/sentenced

Justice seen to be done.

Scapegoats quietly released.

Life goes on.

Reload/repeat for next tourist arrivals.

Think that sums it (and Thailand) up really.

It aint what you know, its who you know, and how much financial power you have.

[canuckamuck]

2 young people came to Thailand.

They fell victim to local "gang" mob, mafia whatever,

They lost their lives.

Local Police initially incompetent, later manipulated.

Scapegoats located.

Scapegoats prosecuted/sentenced

Justice seen to be done.

Scapegoats quietly released.

Life goes on.

Reload/repeat for next tourist arrivals.

Think that sums it (and Thailand) up really.

It aint what you know, its who you know, and how much financial power you have.

That should be the official warning from embassies for people traveling to Thailand.

Edited October 14, 2015 by canuckamuck

[stephenterry]

I,ll throw another possibility into the hat and remember this is not my belief in what happened, only giving another possible theory, because theories is all we have for the time being without turning this into another conspiracy opportunity.

If there were more men or even women, a gang, involved in the murders and the Burmese 2 were part of that group, would it make sense that the B2 would not implicate the others involved in fear that disclosing who they were would place them on the scene and of the others implicating them in the murder? Surely it would be better that the B2 deny everything in the hope that the police will not be able to prove anything and eventually the case dropped.

I doubt the Burmese men would have the intelligence to think of this by themselves, but they would have been well advised by their defence lawyers.

Another Plausible explanation for events. What do you think? Makes sense or not?

As a scenario it's possible. As is their non involvement. Without any DNA evidence to link them to the crimes they could be accused of being accessories at best. Bear in mind the DNA evidence is only an assertion by the Rtp it has not been substantiated or validated.

I will go along with that.

After reading your post, I am now 60/40 that the B2 are implicated in this somehow.

I wonder, lets say for arguments sake, if the B2 are found guilty, could they be offered a plea deal whereas a lighter sentence if they divulge any others that were involved? If this could be, then I guess the others involved must be very worried at this time or they have all ready made a run for it.

Very interesting to see what may be revealed at the final trial.

Don't even go down that road. They are incarcerated in a THAI prison on Samui for over one year. It cannot be ruled out (had they been involved) that they would have been 'got at'. They talk, there is an 'accident' waiting to happen.

Having read the reports of their alibi, it is sketchy and without substance, IMO. A few coincidences that don't gel, rationally. I just don't buy finding a phone at 4am (crime scene time) and giving it to a friend who smashed it and threw it in the bushes near their lodgings.

However, while it is possible and indeed plausible that they could have been part of a gang, or happened to be in the unfortunate presence of a gang, in view of the extreme reluctance and avoidance by the RTP to offer any verifiable and substantial evidence as to THEIR involvement in the crimes, it's not enough to convict them of murder (or indeed rape).

It could also be a rationale as to why the RTP didn't offer more substance, because that substance (e.g. CCTV evidence) could implicate others (powerful Thais) who did carry out the extreme violence. It would be very convenient for the RTP to pin it all on the B2 with death threats inside prison if they squealed. They could have explained (via the Met police) to the victims' families that the B2 were definitely involved and as accessories to murder they should also face the death penalty. Hence the Millers' belief they are guilty.

That still leaves many unanswerable questions that have been raised time and again on this site, and which have been stated far more eloquently than me, and if the above is factual (or close to being logical), there are still killers roaming free.

[StealthEnergiser]

Date set for judgement on Koh Tao murder suspect case -

Myanmar migrant workers who are accused of killing two British tourists, Zaw Lin (F) and Wai Phyo ( arrive for their trial at the Samui Provincial Court in Samui Island, Surat Thani province, southern Thailand, 02 September 2015. Photo: Sitthipong Chareonjai/EPA

The Koh Samui Provincial Court has set 24 December as the date to deliver its judgement on two Myanmar men, Zaw Lin and Zaw Ein Htun (aka Wai Phyo), who are accused of murdering two British tourists on Thailand’s Koh Tao Island on September 15 last year.

The two are charged with the murder of David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23, on September 15, 2014, at Sairee beach on the resort island in Koh Phangan district.

Migrant rights activist, Andy Hall, who has been closely involved in the case has recently summarised his views:

- See more at: http://www.mizzima.com/news-regional/date-set-judgement-koh-tao-murder-suspect-case#sthash.KsAQkF4N.dpuf

[fritzzz25]

The facts of the case are in the bag already, people can speculate until they go blue on the face but it's not going to change anything.

The fact is the prosecution presented DNA evidence that points to their guilt, the fact is the defense didn't seek a court order to get the chain of custody and case notes from the police, the fact is they declined having the DNA retested and the fact is Dr. Pornthips testimony (the only substantial thing the defense has thrown against the prosecution case) doesn't actually invalidate the results of the DNA analysis.

The fact is the defendants were near the scene of the crime at that time, that they have no credible alibi, the clothes they were wearing on that night are conveniently missing and they were in possession of one of the victim's phones.

You may not like any of those facts but they are what they are.

What if there were other people there on that night? What if this?, what if that?... It's been more than a year of "what ifs" that have gone nowhere.

"points to their guilt" - a little bit different than "proof beyond a reasonable doubt"

"the defendants were near the scene of the crime" - well so was Mon, hell he walked all over the crime scene and is photographed there, wouldn't be the first time a criminal returned to the scene of a crime

"in possession of one of the victim's phones" - ALLEGEDLY the victim's phone, this has not been proven by fact in the prosecution's case.

How did you get all these "facts"? Have you been in court to listen and see all the evidence?

[Chetzee]

some of you would have it that the young lady was raped and them murdered .

How do you tie that in with the posed position of her body on the beach ?

I suggest the rape is a red herring , and certainly far from proved by the police and prosecution , who had nothing for the defence to retest .

lets not beat around the bush here . If it's semen from an orafice the police have tested ,then there'd be plenty to retest , and you'd likely get some from her clothes too .

the long and the short , if the lady was raped and them murdered , why on earth would her legs be in the position that they were found . It is just not conceivable in my book .Are we to believe that having been raped she just lay there waiting to be bludgeoned ? Come on get real !

Someone put hannah in that position , and that someone is still out there !

[Chetzee]

Aleg

were near the scene of the crime at that time, instead of B2 read Mon

that they have no credible alibi, instead of B2 read Nomsod

the clothes they were wearing on that night are conveniently missing instead of B2 read Hannah

[Jack Burton]

some of you would have it that the young lady was raped and them murdered .

How do you tie that in with the posed position of her body on the beach ?

I suggest the rape is a red herring , and certainly far from proved by the police and prosecution , who had nothing for the defence to retest .

lets not beat around the bush here . If it's semen from an orafice the police have tested ,then there'd be plenty to retest , and you'd likely get some from her clothes too .

the long and the short , if the lady was raped and them murdered , why on earth would her legs be in the position that they were found . It is just not conceivable in my book .Are we to believe that having been raped she just lay there waiting to be bludgeoned ? Come on get real !

Someone put hannah in that position , and that someone is still out there !

This. It is obvious things such as the above that amazes me has not been picked up from either the media nor seems to have been mentioned in court.

The body was in a 'perfect' position. If you are involved in an altercation at the level of ferociousness that Hannah was there is not a chance in hell you would be in that position. So they get caught having sex, pull David off her, and she just lays there while someone attacks her with a hoe or whatever else was used? Pull the other one.

The bodies were clearly positioned and staged. The one sock is a dead giveaway as well.

[stephenterry]

some of you would have it that the young lady was raped and them murdered .

How do you tie that in with the posed position of her body on the beach ?

I suggest the rape is a red herring , and certainly far from proved by the police and prosecution , who had nothing for the defence to retest .

lets not beat around the bush here . If it's semen from an orafice the police have tested ,then there'd be plenty to retest , and you'd likely get some from her clothes too .

the long and the short , if the lady was raped and them murdered , why on earth would her legs be in the position that they were found . It is just not conceivable in my book .Are we to believe that having been raped she just lay there waiting to be bludgeoned ? Come on get real !

Someone put hannah in that position , and that someone is still out there !

WARNING - INSENSITIVE POST. APOLOGIES.

I agree. The rape assertion was one way the RTP could provide a lust motivation for the B2 to be implicated. The victims were both attacked by a gang of wound-up Thais, maybe including a woman who was jealous. If we're not beating round the bush, Hannah pissed-off someone enough to enrage him/her, and her body was staged to show she was an immoral farang who deserved it.

[Chetzee]

an young opportunist , might find a phone on a beach while looking for something else , and pocket it

an young opportunist might also nick a car to get home from a nightclub after a night out

a young opportunist might also follow a girl out of a night club having observed her drinking and seemingly being in the "mood " with another crowd of men . This opportunist might even stoop to rape that girl . ....................................... but the crucial thing about this opportunist is that he'd have had to be in the nightclub to start with , other wise , the girl he sees walking home , is just a girl walking home , and not a potential target !

we have not been party to all the goings on in court , but from my observation , both the defence do not seem to have nailed several key points to cast doubt on the police's assertions . Namely the rape , the wounds on David , Hannah's clothing ...... all big things in my book !

[bamukloy]

2 young people came to Thailand.

They fell victim to local "gang" mob, mafia whatever,

They lost their lives.

Local Police initially incompetent, later manipulated.

Scapegoats located.

Scapegoats prosecuted/sentenced

Justice seen to be done.

Scapegoats quietly released.

Life goes on.

Reload/repeat for next tourist arrivals.

Think that sums it (and Thailand) up really.

It aint what you know, its who you know, and how much financial power you have.

That should be the official warning from embassies for people traveling to Thailand.

I think its a bit over the top to tarnish the whole of Thailand by the same brush.

I think it would be more prudent and more effective to name Kho Tao as the place to avoid, and even further, isolate the tourist areas around that beach as a no go zone.

It wont work though, since most folks dont seem to do much research on where they go, other than accomodations.

I bet you the place is still busy even now

[glenmohr]

I have studied the posts of a tiny minority who form the opposition to the main train of thought and research by the vast majority of posters.

This has left me puzzled.

The photos of the deceased are about as gruesome as you could get.

We are told by 2, maybe 3, posters that the B2 are demons, are vicious cold blooded killers. They are experts with the hoe, candidates for the Myanmar lightweight boxing team and can run 100 metres in record time darting between their lodgings, their beachside log and their various vicious murders and other lustful crimes.

Taking all that into account, these horrible nasty violent young boys become meek as lambs, put up with police torture ( the torture has not been disputed) and they do not lift a finger. Anyone capable of doing what was done to Hannah would not go meekly. AS soon as the police and roti seller laid a finger on them it would be a case of " Bring it on, I'm going down your coming too" It just does not fit???? .

I want to ask why did the police reveal at the very time of the arrests that the suspects had no previous form??? Just does not fit !

In chains for a year, their dignified behaviour does not tally with the behaviour of a hardened killer.

[lucky11]

2 young people came to Thailand.

They fell victim to local "gang" mob, mafia whatever,

They lost their lives.

Local Police initially incompetent, later manipulated.

Scapegoats located.

Scapegoats prosecuted/sentenced

Justice seen to be done.

Scapegoats quietly released.

Life goes on.

Reload/repeat for next tourist arrivals.

Think that sums it (and Thailand) up really.

It aint what you know, its who you know, and how much financial power you have.

That should be the official warning from embassies for people traveling to Thailand.

I think its a bit over the top to tarnish the whole of Thailand by the same brush.

I think it would be more prudent and more effective to name Kho Tao as the place to avoid, and even further, isolate the tourist areas around that beach as a no go zone.

It wont work though, since most folks dont seem to do much research on where they go, other than accomodations.

I bet you the place is still busy even now

Ridiculous. On this basis people should avoid America and especially Detroit where murders total over 2,000 per 100,000 residents/year ie: over 2.0% of the local population is murdered.

Another interesting fact revealed by Hilary Clinton is that 90 people a day die from gun violence in the US, yet this is dismissed by the gun lobby on the grounds that everyone has a right to own a gun.

Before saying that Koh Tao and the surrounding Islands are unsafe you need to keep it in perspective.

Edited October 14, 2015 by lucky11

[sambum]

Another reason the 'powers that be' don't mind the B2 being unfairly locked up for a long time....

>>> if any RTP or people connected to Mon were brought in to focus for legal wrongdoing, they would have enough time to empty bank accounts and quickly split far away. It's a Thai tradition to give clandestine notice to any VIP (rich, and/or politician, and/or well-connected, and/or police or army person) ....so they have time to grab their passports and jet off to a farang country.

Anybody in particular spring to mind?

[HUH]

That should be the official warning from embassies for people traveling to Thailand.

I think its a bit over the top to tarnish the whole of Thailand by the same brush.

I think it would be more prudent and more effective to name Kho Tao as the place to avoid, and even further, isolate the tourist areas around that beach as a no go zone.

It wont work though, since most folks dont seem to do much research on where they go, other than accomodations.

I bet you the place is still busy even now

Ridiculous. On this basis people should avoid America and especially Detroit where murders total over 2,000 per 100,000 residents/year ie: over 2.0% of the local population is murdered.

Another interesting fact revealed by Hilary Clinton is that 90 people a day die from gun violence in the US, yet this is dismissed by the gun lobby on the grounds that everyone has a right to own a gun.

Before saying that Koh Tao and the surrounding Islands are unsafe you need to keep it in perspective.

We are actually talking about Thailand here not the US. I also advocate staying away from Koh Tao as I believe their are murders on the loose

Here's the UK Gov advice on these 3 Islands of Samui, KT and Phangan

Western tourists including British nationals have been victims of vicious, unprovoked attacks by individuals and gangs in Koh Samui, Koh Phangan and Koh Tao (the Samui archipelago). In January 2013 a British national was killed in a shooting incident while at a beach party in Haad Rin on Koh Phanang and in September 2014, 2 British nationals were killed in Tao.

Violent sexual assaults and robberies against both men and women are reported regularly in the Koh Samui archipelago and Krabi province. These are particularly common during the monthly Full Moon parties and generally occur late at night near bars. https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/thailand/safety-and-security

Edited October 14, 2015 by HUH

[lucky11]

I have studied the posts of a tiny minority who form the opposition to the main train of thought and research by the vast majority of posters.

This has left me puzzled.

The photos of the deceased are about as gruesome as you could get.

We are told by 2, maybe 3, posters that the B2 are demons, are vicious cold blooded killers. They are experts with the hoe, candidates for the Myanmar lightweight boxing team and can run 100 metres in record time darting between their lodgings, their beachside log and their various vicious murders and other lustful crimes.

Taking all that into account, these horrible nasty violent young boys become meek as lambs, put up with police torture ( the torture has not been disputed) and they do not lift a finger. Anyone capable of doing what was done to Hannah would not go meekly. AS soon as the police and roti seller laid a finger on them it would be a case of " Bring it on, I'm going down your coming too" It just does not fit???? .

I want to ask why did the police reveal at the very time of the arrests that the suspects had no previous form??? Just does not fit !

In chains for a year, their dignified behaviour does not tally with the behaviour of a hardened killer.

What do you mean the torture has not been disputed!! You couldn't have been reading my posts.

The torture aspect is something dreamed up by Human rights along with all of the other things they were told to say, retract and deny.

They were a bit slow off the blocks though as the B2 had already spilled the beans, implicated themselves of rape and failed to cover up the murders.

They weren't tortured, other countries do that - I don't think I have to name the country caught out torturing people as it is so well reported and a known fact that it is common practice to do so!!

[sambum]

Thank you HUH for your comment

Thailand's legal system uses many sources of law

There is also a difference between evidence and a claim of evidence.

none that they seem to follow either

Police in the west generally make an attempt at solving crimes, they must follow strict protocols and proceedures that are all designed to be fair for those accused and also to remove any doubts when they get a conviction, they are also highly trained and qualified for the task

A defence team will have unrestrcted access to all evidence presented in court and have the opportunity to verify all of it especially physical evidence like dna and murder weapons, if they are unable to do so that evidence would not be allowed, all samples of "original" dna must be kept, there are special proceedures to follow if dna "original" sample might be exhausted due to sample size being very small, in the case of these murders the largest and most plentiful samples (semen) would have been from Hannah if indeed she was actually raped, to say they were exhausted or used up is a blatant lie and IMO impossible

" in the case of these murders the largest and most plentiful samples (semen) would have been from Hannah if indeed she was actually raped, to say they were exhausted or used up is a blatant lie and IMO impossible"

And did the UK coroner not say that there was no evidence/signs of rape, anyway - plus no bite marks, just more claims by the prosecution/RTP that have been shown proved to be false/"blatant lies".

Edited October 14, 2015 by sambum

[lucky11]

YOU are talking about Koh Tao being a dangerous place to visit. I am simply comparing the dangers of going to Koh Tao as to visiting the US.

It is a fair comparison to make - put it this way, where would you feel safer, walking around or drinking in a bar in Koh Tao or in the heart of gangster territory in the Bronx?

[sambum]

YOU are talking about Koh Tao being a dangerous place to visit. I am simply comparing the dangers of going to Koh Tao as to visiting the US.

It is a fair comparison to make - put it this way, where would you feel safer, walking around or drinking in a bar in Koh Tao or in the heart of gangster territory in the Bronx?

Debatable!

[fritzzz25]

Ridiculous. On this basis people should avoid America and especially Detroit where murders total over 2,000 per 100,000 residents/year ie: over 2.0% of the local population is murdered.

Another interesting fact revealed by Hilary Clinton is that 90 people a day die from gun violence in the US, yet this is dismissed by the gun lobby on the grounds that everyone has a right to own a gun.

Before saying that Koh Tao and the surrounding Islands are unsafe you need to keep it in perspective.

Can you give us the homicide rate per 100,000 residents on KT? Sorry, per the 1382 residents on the island according to the population.

[catsanddogs]

I have studied the posts of a tiny minority who form the opposition to the main train of thought and research by the vast majority of posters.

This has left me puzzled.

The photos of the deceased are about as gruesome as you could get.

We are told by 2, maybe 3, posters that the B2 are demons, are vicious cold blooded killers. They are experts with the hoe, candidates for the Myanmar lightweight boxing team and can run 100 metres in record time darting between their lodgings, their beachside log and their various vicious murders and other lustful crimes.

Taking all that into account, these horrible nasty violent young boys become meek as lambs, put up with police torture ( the torture has not been disputed) and they do not lift a finger. Anyone capable of doing what was done to Hannah would not go meekly. AS soon as the police and roti seller laid a finger on them it would be a case of " Bring it on, I'm going down your coming too" It just does not fit???? .

I want to ask why did the police reveal at the very time of the arrests that the suspects had no previous form??? Just does not fit !

In chains for a year, their dignified behaviour does not tally with the behaviour of a hardened killer.

What do you mean the torture has not been disputed!! You couldn't have been reading my posts.

The torture aspect is something dreamed up by Human rights along with all of the other things they were told to say, retract and deny.

They were a bit slow off the blocks though as the B2 had already spilled the beans, implicated themselves of rape and failed to cover up the murders.

They weren't tortured, other countries do that - I don't think I have to name the country caught out torturing people as it is so well reported and a known fact that it is common practice to do so!!

I don't understand why you are continually allowed to post such libellous comments - slandering Dr Pornthip/ stating that human rights have dreamt up the torture claims. Anyone new to this thread would be most perplexed and disturbed by your outpourings I would imagine. Thank goodness the majority of posters who have been following this investigation and trial from the beginning post with honesty and supply links to support their comments. Shameful.

[sambum]

What game of chess awaits the media, the "saving face" card will be a major player. For all we know, things will be seen to be done, but in reality who knows what deals and "agreements" have been made.

Hypothetical scenario: The B2 are found guilty, sentenced, justice is seen to be done, perpetrators found, pat on the back to RTP,(face saved) case closed,

several months go by may be a year, attention dies down, B2 released through a back door with a nice "compensation" and nobody is any the wiser.

Its all smoke and mirrors, or is that winks,handshakes and envelopes to cover up incompetency and the previous pay off to destroy/hide evidence by those who were in a financial position to pay for it to go away.

The actual truth, despite all the hot air and "experts" will never be known...........sadly. but hey TIT

This is probably the most intelligent post of the last 15 pages.

99% of the Thai public couldn't give a rats a** about this case anymore, it's old news, who cares, they have the killers (so they think) convict and move on. The only one's that are seeking truth and justice aren't Thais and this is Thailand so who cares about them anyway?

B2 scapegoats from day 1, they'll go down and as RolandRat has posted, they'll do a year and get sent back to Myanmar with a small "take-the-fall" envelope.

Another aspect of Thai "law" that was mentioned earlier is that by pleading guilty, one's sentence can be substantially reduced/halved. With the B2 facing the death sentence if found guilty, they seem supremely confident in their innocence - almost as if they are found guilty, they know something that we don't.

I personally think that they are innocent of the crimes that they are charged with, but I also think that there are some deals being discussed "under the table" that we don't know about, but this is just supposition on my part - before the "conspiracy theory" lobbyists jump in! (Come to think of it, I haven't seen that expression used for a while now on this thread - it was being used regularly at one time by certain posters that are conspicuous by their absence!)

[stephenterry]

YOU are talking about Koh Tao being a dangerous place to visit. I am simply comparing the dangers of going to Koh Tao as to visiting the US.

It is a fair comparison to make - put it this way, where would you feel safer, walking around or drinking in a bar in Koh Tao or in the heart of gangster territory in the Bronx?

The dangers are not comparable. If I was a pretty young female I would heed the UK advice and avoid koh tao because of the dangers of rape and murder. I also wouldn't go anywhere near a gangster environment in case I got caught in the crossfire. On balance I would avoid both.

[sambum]

The facts of the case are in the bag already, people can speculate until they go blue on the face but it's not going to change anything.

The fact is the prosecution presented DNA evidence that points to their guilt, the fact is the defense didn't seek a court order to get the chain of custody and case notes from the police, the fact is they declined having the DNA retested and the fact is Dr. Pornthips testimony (the only substantial thing the defense has thrown against the prosecution case) doesn't actually invalidate the results of the DNA analysis.

The fact is the defendants were near the scene of the crime at that time, that they have no credible alibi, the clothes they were wearing on that night are conveniently missing and they were in possession of one of the victim's phones.

You may not like any of those facts but they are what they are.

What if there were other people there on that night? What if this?, what if that?... It's been more than a year of "what ifs" that have gone nowhere.

You just perfectly sums up my own conviction.

Let us add that the polemicists interventions Andy Hall have taken him unworthy confusion of serene justice.

The last element to consider is that David's father believes in the guilt of accuseds. And this faith shows real conviction of British investigators that they are bound by reserve duty.

Appointment for the verdict so and let continue the great specialists their carousel of speculations.

Pardon? I honestly do not know what point you are trying to make!

" unworthy confusion of serene justice"

"And this faith shows real conviction of British investigators that they are bound by reserve duty."

"Appointment for the verdict so and let continue the great specialists their carousel of speculations."

[catsanddogs]

YOU are talking about Koh Tao being a dangerous place to visit. I am simply comparing the dangers of going to Koh Tao as to visiting the US.

It is a fair comparison to make - put it this way, where would you feel safer, walking around or drinking in a bar in Koh Tao or in the heart of gangster territory in the Bronx?

The dangers are not comparable. If I was a pretty young female I would heed the UK advice and avoid koh tao because of the dangers of rape and murder. I also wouldn't go anywhere near a gangster environment in case I got caught in the crossfire. On balance I would avoid both.

What was it the dear leader said after the murders

Women are not safe in Bikinis if beautiful............................

And don't forget that no Thai could have done these evil crimes, so I guess tourists will be okay as long as the just hang around with the Thais and stay away from all other nationalities.

[cyberfarang]

I,ll throw another possibility into the hat and remember this is not my belief in what happened, only giving another possible theory, because theories is all we have for the time being without turning this into another conspiracy opportunity.

If there were more men or even women, a gang, involved in the murders and the Burmese 2 were part of that group, would it make sense that the B2 would not implicate the others involved in fear that disclosing who they were would place them on the scene and of the others implicating them in the murder? Surely it would be better that the B2 deny everything in the hope that the police will not be able to prove anything and eventually the case dropped.

I doubt the Burmese men would have the intelligence to think of this by themselves, but they would have been well advised by their defence lawyers.

Another Plausible explanation for events. What do you think? Makes sense or not?

As a scenario it's possible. As is their non involvement. Without any DNA evidence to link them to the crimes they could be accused of being accessories at best. Bear in mind the DNA evidence is only an assertion by the Rtp it has not been substantiated or validated.

I will go along with that.

After reading your post, I am now 60/40 that the B2 are implicated in this somehow.

I wonder, lets say for arguments sake, if the B2 are found guilty, could they be offered a plea deal whereas a lighter sentence if they divulge any others that were involved? If this could be, then I guess the others involved must be very worried at this time or they have all ready made a run for it.

Very interesting to see what may be revealed at the final trial.

Don't even go down that road. They are incarcerated in a THAI prison on Samui for over one year. It cannot be ruled out (had they been involved) that they would have been 'got at'. They talk, there is an 'accident' waiting to happen.

Having read the reports of their alibi, it is sketchy and without substance, IMO. A few coincidences that don't gel, rationally. I just don't buy finding a phone at 4am (crime scene time) and giving it to a friend who smashed it and threw it in the bushes near their lodgings.

However, while it is possible and indeed plausible that they could have been part of a gang, or happened to be in the unfortunate presence of a gang, in view of the extreme reluctance and avoidance by the RTP to offer any verifiable and substantial evidence as to THEIR involvement in the crimes, it's not enough to convict them of murder (or indeed rape).

It could also be a rationale as to why the RTP didn't offer more substance, because that substance (e.g. CCTV evidence) could implicate others (powerful Thais) who did carry out the extreme violence. It would be very convenient for the RTP to pin it all on the B2 with death threats inside prison if they squealed. They could have explained (via the Met police) to the victims' families that the B2 were definitely involved and as accessories to murder they should also face the death penalty. Hence the Millers' belief they are guilty.

That still leaves many unanswerable questions that have been raised time and again on this site, and which have been stated far more eloquently than me, and if the above is factual (or close to being logical), there are still killers roaming free.

I believe that as well and thank you for sharing your views on this, I am taking all this in.

Whether the B2 are involved or not, I also believe there are killers on the lose, probably one or more people very prominent on the island. I think that if not for all the international attention the case has received, the B2 would have conveniently been laid to rest long ago.

My feelings reach out to the families, it is just horrible and can only hope that they receive true justice.

[smedly]

YOU are talking about Koh Tao being a dangerous place to visit. I am simply comparing the dangers of going to Koh Tao as to visiting the US.

It is a fair comparison to make - put it this way, where would you feel safer, walking around or drinking in a bar in Koh Tao or in the heart of gangster territory in the Bronx?

well you have made an argument that I was going to make, as a tourist you would not be in the Bronx, you would not be going to NY to visit the Bronx, as a trourist you would have been advised to stay well away as it is not safe

Every city in the world have places where tourists are advised not to go because it would be dangerous, that is fairly basic and most people do their research before going there and also tend to ask locals about where not to go and generally you get good info and mostly remain safe by staying in the "safe" well policed tourist areas

Ko Tao however is a small holiday island and all of it should be safe for tourists, evidently it is not, rapes muggings murders a lot of which go unreported it seems, that beach and the street and strip of bars inbetween should be 100% safe places to go simply because that is a main tourist area (not the Bronx), it is not an area where tourists should be avoiding or advised to avoid, actually that is the advice I would be giving because it is seemingly not safe very quite dangerous, tourists get mugged raped and murdered there.

My proffessional advise to anyone planning to visit Ko Tao is that they should be extremely careful especially at night as it is a dangerous in the tourist areas, mix with the locals as little as possible and never walk around at night alone. Ultimately I would advise them to give the place a miss completely, Thailand has a tendency to downplay crime in tourist destinations like Ko Tao for obvuious reasons, instead of dealing with the very obvious problems they tend to try and cover it up

Interesting to note, one of the most unsafe places in Pattaya is the main tourist area "the beach" especially at night, go figure

Edited October 14, 2015 by smedly

[stephenterry]

YOU are talking about Koh Tao being a dangerous place to visit. I am simply comparing the dangers of going to Koh Tao as to visiting the US.

It is a fair comparison to make - put it this way, where would you feel safer, walking around or drinking in a bar in Koh Tao or in the heart of gangster territory in the Bronx?

well you have made an argument that I was going to make, as a tourist you would not be in the Bronx, you would not be going to NY to visit the Bronx, as a trourist you would have been advised to stay well away as it is not safe

Every city in the world have places where tourists are advised not to go because it would be dangerous, that is fairly basic and most people do their research before going there and also tend to ask locals about where not to go and generally you get good info and mostly remain safe by staying in the "safe" well policed tourist areas

Ko Tao however is a small holiday island and all of it should be safe for tourists, evidently it is not, rapes muggings murders a lot of which go unreported it seems, that beach and the street and strip of bars inbetween should be 100% safe places to go simply because that is a main tourist area (not the Bronx), it is not an area where tourists should be avoiding or advised to avoid, actually that is the advice I would be giving because it is seemingly not safe very quite dangerous, tourists get mugged raped and murdered there.

My proffessional advise to anyone planning to visit Ko Tao is that they should be extremely careful especially at night as it is a dangerous in the tourist areas, mix with the locals as little as possible and never walk around at night alone. Ultimately I would advise them to give the place a miss completely, Thailand has a tendency to downplay crime in tourist destinations like Ko Tao for obvuious reasons, instead of dealing with the very obvious problems they tend to try and cover it up

Interesting to note, one of the most unsafe places in Pattaya is the main tourist area "the beach" especially at night, go figure

I agree completely apart that about pattaya. I never found the beach to be dangerous at night. Maybe I was lucky.