Withdrawing Cash in 2015

[CrankyCarrot]

Figuring out the best way to access money from my Australian bank account (without opening a Thai one) and after searching, I still have a few unresolved questions. Appreciate anyone with the time/info to answer.

1. Aeon used to offer ATM-fee free withdrawals, but now neither they nor any others do. Is that the case?

2. Are all Thai ATMs now charging B180? It was B150 last I checked.

3. If you go into a branch and use your passport and debit card to make a withdrawal, you can avoid the B150/180 ATM fee, but do you get the same exchange rate as you would at the same bank's ATM?

4. If you get the same exchange rate in the above example, which part of the transaction benefits the Thai bank? My home bank charges $5 for overseas transactions (including in-branch withdrawals, I assume) and a 3% conversion fee. If the ATM fee is out of the equation, then they would make money only on a low-ball exchange rate, right?

5. I went into Krung Thai yesterday (Thursday) and was quoted B24.67 on the AUD. Who or what determines this rate? It was B0.28 below what was shown for them on that site most people seem to use (BankExchange) to guage rates online. I've heard the real rate banks use is the current Mastercard/Visa rate (depending on your card) or the rate offered by those companies the day before. In my case, the Mastercard rate for Wed/Thu was 24.71/25.08 - I suppose the Mastercard rate for the preceding day was the closest, so is that the best thing to go on?

6. To sum it all up, today (Fri) at 1.29pm Thai time:

a.) xe says the AUD is buying B25.45

b.) The BankExchange site referred to in 5. above says Bangkok Bank is paying the highest TT rate (aside from UOB, which isn't anywhere near me) at B25.11, and

c.) Mastercard is citing B25.21 for today and 25.08 for yesterday (Thurs).

Which of the above, if any, should I use to estimate the rate I'll get walking in to a branch?

I have a feeling I could walk into the three different banks near me (Kasikorn, Bangkok Bank and Krung Thai) and get three different rates quoted. I tried simply asking KT where they got their seeminly low B24.67 rate from yesterday, but the question was lost in translation.

Edited September 11, 2015 by CrankyCarrot

[Pib]

1. AEON started charging a Bt150 in early 2014. Max Bt20K withdrawal per transaction at AEON ATMs.

2. Thai banks charge Bt180 now for Visa/Mastercard. Some ATMs accept American Express and Union Pay cards where the fee is only Bt50 like at Bangkok Bank ATMs. Max withdrawal per transaction from Thai bank ATMs will either be Bt20K, Bt25K, or Bt30K...it varies among the Thai banks. For example: Bangkok Bank is Bt25K...TMB and Krungsri at Bt30K. For counter withdrawals I know of no limit by the Thai banks (they probably have some limit but it's high); only the limit set by your "card-issuing" bank is the one that will limit your withdrawal. Not uncommon for debit cards to have a daily limit of around 1,000USD or less...even credit cards have limits although probably higher. Like a couple of U.S. debit cards I have...they have 1,000USD per day limits; but a credit card I use for cash advances has a 2,000USD per day limit at a counter...I could also get another 1000USD with the credit card from an ATM. Summary: know the per transaction/daily limit set by your "card-issuing" bank.

3. It will vary from branch to branch if they will do a counter withdrawal for a debit card...some branches will just point you to their ATM. All branches should accept a credit card for counter a withdrawal. There should be no Thai bank fee....I've never been charged a fee when doing counter withdrawals at a Bangkok Bank and Krungsri branches I use monthly for counter withdrawals. But I do use my credit card for the counter withdrawal---a no foreign transaction fee and no cash advance fee that I have prepaid to avoid in interest charge...I use my credit card since I can get 2K USD per day vs my debit cards which have a 1K USD per day limit. I also use a couple of no foreign transaction fee debit cards which reimburse the ATM fee....I use the debit cards in the ATMs....one time at a Bangkok Bank branch I asked to use my debit card for a counter withdrawal and they refused...they just pointed me to their ATM...but they gladly accepted my credit card for the counter withdrawal and have many times since. Regarding exchange rate, you will get the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate minus any foreign transaction fee your "card-issuing" bank may apply. Now SCB does appear to only offer a Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) rate for counter withdrawals, which is a rate about 3 to 4% below the Visa/Mastercard rate...never do a DCC transaciton at an ATM, counter withdrawal or for a purchase.

4. The Thai bank makes a profit from the fee they charge and/or the "interchange" fee. An interchange fee is purely between the bank issuing the money and the car-issuing bank. In card purchases, debit or credit, when you purchase something, your "card-issuing bank" collects an interchange fee of a few percent. But in a cash-withdrawal the bank handing out the money (i.e., a Thai bank doing the counter withdrawal) collect an interchange fee from your card-issuing bank. Many card-issuing bank charge foreign transactions fees, percentage and or flat fee based, which allows them to cover any interchange fees they must pay out. And some banks, the less fee-hungry banks, just absorb the interchange fee....they do not pass that fee along to the customer through foreign transaction fees.

5. If the bank quotes you a rate that is one of "their" rates for TT Buying, Notes, Traveler Cheques, etc. They would not know the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate unless they would look it up on the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate website just like you did. Assuming the bank does not attempt a DCC transaction on your, you will get the Visa/Mastercard rate...you need to look at their websites...and unfortunately for a Mastercard they don't post their current day rates like Visa does....Mastercard has a current day rate, it's just they don't post them for their customers to see until a day later/after the fact.

6. You'll get the Visa/Mastercard rate minus any foreign transaction fee your card-issuing bank may apply. FX rates, like on xe.com, are mid-market rates at the BIG money level...like for forex traders and banks....the rate the common man gets is something less after a profit spread is cranked in by whatever bank/financial company you are using to exchange your money. Forex sites should only be used as I indicator of the ever changing exchange rate and "not" what your local money exchanger/bank is going to give you...remember,that money exchanger/bank needs to crank in his profit spread.

In closing, monthly for the last 18 months or so I have walked into my nearby Bangkok Bank or Krungsri Bank branch with my Visa card, done a counter withdrawal, never been charged a fee (remember the bank still makes an interchange fee), and for my no foreign transaction fee card I get the full Visa rate in effect for that day.

[CrankyCarrot]

Thanks for the detailed reply Pib.

[CrankyCarrot]

For anyone interested, including myself (I often end up Googling my old posts to recall info I need again down the track);

Jungceylon has about 5 or 6 banks in close proximity to each other on the lower ground level on the Bangla side, inc. Kasikorn, Krung Thai, Siam, Bangkok, Krung Sri, and Aeon (technically a lending institution with some bank-like facilities like an ATM).

Krung Sri had the best cash exchange rate advertised on screen at B24.85 per Aud, but according to staff they charge B180 (or B150, it was impossible to get a straight answer out of them) for in branch withdrawals just as with the ATMs. So I went with Bangkok Bank who had the second best rate at B24.75 per Aud and no charge for withdrawals made with a passport in-branch.

Withdrawing 25,000 baht from my Aussie debit card (Mastercard), I asked the girl processing my transaction what rate I would get, specifically if it was the same as the 24.75 on screen for cash exchanges. She said yes. This was not the case. In fact I got the Mastercard rate for the day (Fri 11 Sep 2015), which was the slightly higher 25.15. By Tuesday the final breakdown of charges was showing on my bank account. My bank deducted the same $5 it does when you use their debit card in an overseas ATM that isn't part of their network. I believe that goes to some banking network as somewhere on their site it says that fee doesn't go to them. The biggest chunk that does go to them is the 3% "Foreign transaction fee," which amounted to just shy of $30.

Had I made a cash advance with a credit card, it looked like I'd be hit with the same 3% conversion fee as well as another 2% cash advance fee, which would have presumably cost more.

So basically it cost $35 Aud in fees to make a B25k withdrawal at B25.15 to the Aud (xe posted 25.5). In other words I got 24.3 baht per Aud after accounting for fees. Pretty bad, but the Aus isn't exactly experiencing stellar performance at the moment. At least you can avoid the extra B150-180 if you go to a branch with your passport and have a rough idea of the rate you'll get by looking up Mastercards exchange rate for the day.

I notice that for the same day Mastercard gave B25.158594, Visa's rate was about 25.658007, or roughly 0.5 baht more. For B25k, you pay $993.69 with MC and $974.35 with Visa. $19.34 isn't exactly a negligible on a withdrawal of that size. Yet when I Google MasterCard vs Visa, the top results declare Mastercard has better exchange rates. Hardly. Running comparisons in rates between the two in other currencies like the USD and the EURO show Visa on top as well in recent dates. Wish my debit card was issued by Visa.

Edited September 15, 2015 by CrankyCarrot