Thai silk cocoon vests can 'catch bullets'

[Civilnow]

As said, the Mongols were using silk vests very effectively. I understood the effectiveness was due to very tight weaving, and would suggest that they look at somehow interlocking the cocoons, not just gluing them together.

" from .22 calibre weapons to an M16 "

I'm no gun nut, but isn't an M16 also 22 calibre? And shouldn't the tests be with 9mm handguns as being very common?

A 22 long rifle or magnum is a round tipped bullet at about 900 to 1500 Feet per second. Not very affective against a vest. M16 A1 and A2 rounds are pointed and travel about 3000 feet per second. they will go though most vest. 9mm is somewhere in between but closer to 22 magnum against a vest. If this vest can stop M16 rounds it can stop AK 47 rounds also.

[Don Mega]

I think this post is about providing some protection to military and law officers who would not ordinarily be issued with some. It is also at a relatively low cost. It is also directed at those officers working in the south where high cal military weapons are not in use. Don't think we need to worry about the poster who suggest they should protect against axes and ice picks. (are you for real) I think this is a prospectively good piece of news and should not be denigrated by all the Thai hate posters.

The most commonly used round "down south" is the M855. A nasty lil bugger that will happily plug through armour steels that easily defeat it's armour piercing brother the M193 (SS109) as well as the bigger M80 round.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Don Mega

[PaPiPuPePo]

As said, the Mongols were using silk vests very effectively. I understood the effectiveness was due to very tight weaving, and would suggest that they look at somehow interlocking the cocoons, not just gluing them together.

" from .22 calibre weapons to an M16 "

I'm no gun nut, but isn't an M16 also 22 calibre? And shouldn't the tests be with 9mm handguns as being very common?

Whether you're talking baseballs or bullets, terminal ballistics are merely a function of mass times velocity. A .22 bullet and a .223 (M16) bullet have similar weights/mass, but the latter is travelling more than 2.5 times as fast. Do the math, the result is a lot more energy. a 9mm bullet weighs 2-3 times what a .223 round does (all calibers have different bullet weights available), but is travelling much slower, again about 40% of the speed. That's why an M16 is a "hi-power(ed)" rifle while a .22 rifle isn't.

[anon4546543]

Don Mega, My military service was in The late 70's and all of the eighties. We had old worn out M16. Because of a lack of American ammunition, we started using Israeli ammo. I now know it to be M885 ammo that totally destroyed our old Colt M16. They blew out the barrel. None of this ammo would be known to the vets talking on this forum. Of course, current military auto rifles have long surpassed the M16. But you are suggesting that "militants" in the south are using M4 rifles and M855 ammunition. Quite frankly, I don't know. Are there any posters who can say what weapons are being used by the southern insurrection and who is supplying them?

[RamblingSam]

Kovaltech's remark about ice-picks and cross-bows is relevant, there was a US tv programme (I think stunt equipment designers?) which showed that when an arrow or gun/rifle using black powder was fired into water, these would considerably more effective than bullets from high velocity guns, because on impacting water, the latter would shatter. It was kind of concluded that the lower velocity of the former, was why they were more effective. That would kind of imply, that body armour containing Silk, may well be effective against low velocity impacts such as knife attacks?

I'm a Brit, without any military personnel experience, hence my ignorance on some aspects of the capabilities of firearms of any kind.

[RigPig]

As said, the Mongols were using silk vests very effectively. I understood the effectiveness was due to very tight weaving, and would suggest that they look at somehow interlocking the cocoons, not just gluing them together.

" from .22 calibre weapons to an M16 "

I'm no gun nut, but isn't an M16 also 22 calibre? And shouldn't the tests be with 9mm handguns as being very common?

I am a gun nut :-)

If it can stop a .17 bee caliber, it can stop almost anything...

If it can stop a M16 bullet, it sure can stop a 9mm or even a .44 magnum...

But can it stop an arrow of a crossbow ? or a sharp ice-pick ?

Only if the bullets gets "flattened" it will be stopped by a kevlar vest. That why they ad ceramic or steel plates in heavy armour vests..

But even a standard 308 armor piercing round( Caliber .30 or 7,62 mm) ( will blast thru ) ( if you look to the standard ammo for the machine guns used and in use, you'l see 1 black ( armor piercing) one red ( tracer round) and 3 standard bullets, this for every 5 rounds...

Stil to be found by the thousands lying around... Same for the 30-06 standard rifle, with the ammo from the .30 machine gun...

Sorry. It took a few minutes there to catch up on the ".17 bee caliber".

That would be a .177 pellet air gun (that I'm familiar with).

Tiny pellet. Never seen one in front of any gunpowder though.

I have shot many people (yes people) with a .177 air pistol. I probably nailed 7 or 8 of them off my balcony in Sandland. Noisy farts. They buggered off.

Never killed anyone but made them stop making noise and being obnoxious with it. I have been shot with one as well.

Hurts like a MO-FO.

Mine had a 600 feet per second muzzle velocity. 14 inch barrel. Quite accurate at 500 feet or so.

I don't know what a .17 Bee calibre is, but there is this (and a couple of derivatives). It used to be used for fox hunting and such. The small calibre didn't damage the fur, it had a good range and I believe was one of the flattest shooting bullets made, certainly nothing else matched it on price. If I remember right (and I haven't heard mention of it for years), I think it may have started life as a .22 Magnum or something.

Haha, Google )and Wickipedia) is your friend.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.17_HMR

[Don Mega]

Don Mega, My military service was in The late 70's and all of the eighties. We had old worn out M16. Because of a lack of American ammunition, we started using Israeli ammo. I now know it to be M885 ammo that totally destroyed our old Colt M16. They blew out the barrel. None of this ammo would be known to the vets talking on this forum. Of course, current military auto rifles have long surpassed the M16. But you are suggesting that "militants" in the south are using M4 rifles and M855 ammunition. Quite frankly, I don't know. Are there any posters who can say what weapons are being used by the southern insurrection and who is supplying them?

Google is a wonderful tool.

A quick 15 minute search throws up the following list of 5.56 x 45 based assault rifles found in Thailand.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Don Mega

[anon4546543]

I don't know about the ability of any anti projectile personal protection. I do know that if you have let knife wielding, axe smashing, ice pick thrashing enemies to get under your guard, you may well be in trouble no matter how much body armour you are wearing. I think that body armour is meant to protect against relatively distant fire. The theory being that you don't let the enemy get so close to you.

[Don Mega]

A stab vest is very different in construction to a ballistic vest.

[kovaltech]

As said, the Mongols were using silk vests very effectively. I understood the effectiveness was due to very tight weaving, and would suggest that they look at somehow interlocking the cocoons, not just gluing them together.

" from .22 calibre weapons to an M16 "

I'm no gun nut, but isn't an M16 also 22 calibre? And shouldn't the tests be with 9mm handguns as being very common?

I am a gun nut :-)

If it can stop a .17 bee caliber, it can stop almost anything...

If it can stop a M16 bullet, it sure can stop a 9mm or even a .44 magnum...

But can it stop an arrow of a crossbow ? or a sharp ice-pick ?

Only if the bullets gets "flattened" it will be stopped by a kevlar vest. That why they ad ceramic or steel plates in heavy armour vests..

But even a standard 308 armor piercing round( Caliber .30 or 7,62 mm) ( will blast thru ) ( if you look to the standard ammo for the machine guns used and in use, you'l see 1 black ( armor piercing) one red ( tracer round) and 3 standard bullets, this for every 5 rounds...

Stil to be found by the thousands lying around... Same for the 30-06 standard rifle, with the ammo from the .30 machine gun...

I doubt many folks know this. Hell I didn't until recently.

A .30-06 round.

.30 calibre.....but why the -06?

The US Army approved the round for use in their weapons in 1906.

Yeah an M16 round might be a tiny caliber at 5.56 mm, but the brass & gunpowder behind it are nothing to be sneezed at.

I've shot thousands of M16 rounds in the Army.

My nephew bought an AR-15 & I TOLD him to use earplugs. He didn't think it could be all THAT loud. He was wrong.

---------------

Another interesting bit of trivia. The flash suppressor at the end of the barrel is to reduce flash to the shooter, so it doesn't affect his vision in combat.

the 06 comes from the year 1906

before it was the .303

from 1903 ( also called the 303 british.)

[kovaltech]

As said, the Mongols were using silk vests very effectively. I understood the effectiveness was due to very tight weaving, and would suggest that they look at somehow interlocking the cocoons, not just gluing them together.

" from .22 calibre weapons to an M16 "

I'm no gun nut, but isn't an M16 also 22 calibre? And shouldn't the tests be with 9mm handguns as being very common?

I am a gun nut :-)

If it can stop a .17 bee caliber, it can stop almost anything...

If it can stop a M16 bullet, it sure can stop a 9mm or even a .44 magnum...

But can it stop an arrow of a crossbow ? or a sharp ice-pick ?

Only if the bullets gets "flattened" it will be stopped by a kevlar vest. That why they ad ceramic or steel plates in heavy armour vests..

But even a standard 308 armor piercing round( Caliber .30 or 7,62 mm) ( will blast thru ) ( if you look to the standard ammo for the machine guns used and in use, you'l see 1 black ( armor piercing) one red ( tracer round) and 3 standard bullets, this for every 5 rounds...

Stil to be found by the thousands lying around... Same for the 30-06 standard rifle, with the ammo from the .30 machine gun...

Sorry. It took a few minutes there to catch up on the ".17 bee caliber".

That would be a .177 pellet air gun (that I'm familiar with).

Tiny pellet. Never seen one in front of any gunpowder though.

I have shot many people (yes people) with a .177 air pistol. I probably nailed 7 or 8 of them off my balcony in Sandland. Noisy farts. They buggered off.

Never killed anyone but made them stop making noise and being obnoxious with it. I have been shot with one as well.

Hurts like a MO-FO.

Mine had a 600 feet per second muzzle velocity. 14 inch barrel. Quite accurate at 500 feet or so.

I don't know what a .17 Bee calibre is, but there is this (and a couple of derivatives). It used to be used for fox hunting and such. The small calibre didn't damage the fur, it had a good range and I believe was one of the flattest shooting bullets made, certainly nothing else matched it on price. If I remember right (and I haven't heard mention of it for years), I think it may have started life as a .22 Magnum or something.

Haha, Google )and Wickipedia) is your friend.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.17_HMR

Yup thats the "bee" ;-)

perfect for small varmint, the bullet is so fast it obliterate in the body from the target, very humane kills.

[off road pat]

One of the reasons the Mongol hordes were so successful is that while their opponents wore heavy mettle armor, the Mongls wore a light weight leather shield and a silk tunic under that.

The silk would prevent arrows from penetrating very deep and provided pretty good protection.

This made the Mongols much faster and maneuverable on their horses,

and much harder targets to hit or catch in battle.

And carefully pulling on the silk Tunic could extract a arrow from a wound without the hooks ripping out the skin....They had a special technique for that....!!!

[kovaltech]

As said, the Mongols were using silk vests very effectively. I understood the effectiveness was due to very tight weaving, and would suggest that they look at somehow interlocking the cocoons, not just gluing them together.

" from .22 calibre weapons to an M16 "

I'm no gun nut, but isn't an M16 also 22 calibre? And shouldn't the tests be with 9mm handguns as being very common?

Whether you're talking baseballs or bullets, terminal ballistics are merely a function of mass times velocity. A .22 bullet and a .223 (M16) bullet have similar weights/mass, but the latter is travelling more than 2.5 times as fast. Do the math, the result is a lot more energy. a 9mm bullet weighs 2-3 times what a .223 round does (all calibers have different bullet weights available), but is travelling much slower, again about 40% of the speed. That's why an M16 is a "hi-power(ed)" rifle while a .22 rifle isn't.

mmm....

The .22 lr does not have the same weight or mass, 28-40 grains for 70 grains in a .223 or .222

If for any reason, the words .22 are used, the 22 Lr is meant, all the other are indicated as .223, .222, .226

The 22Lr is Lead Round nose, most of the time, with some exceptions , hollowpoints high velocity ( max 1700 fps) where as the .222 and .223 start with 2250 fps upwards

the 9mm or .355 cal has a standard weight of 124 Grains , velocity 900 m/s

Its all about surface area been hit , deformation of the bullet, weight and speed

a larger surface area hit with same weight of the bullet and same speed, will result in less penetration depth.

If you shoot a kevlar vest with a tranquilizer gun, the needle will go thru, even a tazer needle would be able to pass. ( sure would like to see that )

[off road pat]

I saw a program on the TeleVision about silk been used in Bullet proof vests a couple of weeks ago.

Thainess at it's best,...They just copy something existing and appropriate it....to themselves....

happened so many times before.

Best regards.

[khundon]

Yes, this vest can stop a bullet, unfortunately, it stops it on the way out, not on the way in.

[PaPiPuPePo]

the 06 comes from the year 1906

before it was the .303

from 1903 ( also called the 303 british.)

Not exactly. The .303 was British and only British, used in the Enfield rifles. 1903 would be the M1903 Springfield rifle, which was only produced with the .30-06 round despite the 3-year difference in name. Before the M1903 were the Krag rifles firing a Krag cartridge.

[PaPiPuPePo]

As said, the Mongols were using silk vests very effectively. I understood the effectiveness was due to very tight weaving, and would suggest that they look at somehow interlocking the cocoons, not just gluing them together.

" from .22 calibre weapons to an M16 "

I'm no gun nut, but isn't an M16 also 22 calibre? And shouldn't the tests be with 9mm handguns as being very common?

Whether you're talking baseballs or bullets, terminal ballistics are merely a function of mass times velocity. A .22 bullet and a .223 (M16) bullet have similar weights/mass, but the latter is travelling more than 2.5 times as fast. Do the math, the result is a lot more energy. a 9mm bullet weighs 2-3 times what a .223 round does (all calibers have different bullet weights available), but is travelling much slower, again about 40% of the speed. That's why an M16 is a "hi-power(ed)" rifle while a .22 rifle isn't.

mmm....

The .22 lr does not have the same weight or mass, 28-40 grains for 70 grains in a .223 or .222

If for any reason, the words .22 are used, the 22 Lr is meant, all the other are indicated as .223, .222, .226

The 22Lr is Lead Round nose, most of the time, with some exceptions , hollowpoints high velocity ( max 1700 fps) where as the .222 and .223 start with 2250 fps upwards

the 9mm or .355 cal has a standard weight of 124 Grains , velocity 900 m/s

Its all about surface area been hit , deformation of the bullet, weight and speed

a larger surface area hit with same weight of the bullet and same speed, will result in less penetration depth.

If you shoot a kevlar vest with a tranquilizer gun, the needle will go thru, even a tazer needle would be able to pass. ( sure would like to see that )

OK, true, a .223 bullet can weigh twice a .22lr bullet, but a 40gr .22 and a 55-64gr .223 are a lot closer to each other in size than a .223 is to a 150-180gr .30 cal. bullet. So my point was that the difference btw .223 and .22 is let's say then "mostly" due to the very large velocity difference. The .223 "is" virtually .22 caliber, .003 inch difference, again it's significantly closer to that than to .30 cal. so it's not that off to call an M16 a 22 cal. rifle. A .22-250's also 22 cal. and yet a 40gr bullet in that caliber is a bit deadlier than a .22lr.

The M16 shoots a 5.56mm round which is higher pressure than .223 and all versions of that round are 3000fps +/-, even for commercial .223 2250 is very much on the slow end.

Speed kills. That said, big and slow has its virtues.

Anyway, this conversion probably should be moved to the non-existent TV gun forum LOL.

[Civilnow]

As said, the Mongols were using silk vests very effectively. I understood the effectiveness was due to very tight weaving, and would suggest that they look at somehow interlocking the cocoons, not just gluing them together.

" from .22 calibre weapons to an M16 "

I'm no gun nut, but isn't an M16 also 22 calibre? And shouldn't the tests be with 9mm handguns as being very common?

Whether you're talking baseballs or bullets, terminal ballistics are merely a function of mass times velocity. A .22 bullet and a .223 (M16) bullet have similar weights/mass, but the latter is travelling more than 2.5 times as fast. Do the math, the result is a lot more energy. a 9mm bullet weighs 2-3 times what a .223 round does (all calibers have different bullet weights available), but is travelling much slower, again about 40% of the speed. That's why an M16 is a "hi-power(ed)" rifle while a .22 rifle isn't.

mmm....

The .22 lr does not have the same weight or mass, 28-40 grains for 70 grains in a .223 or .222

If for any reason, the words .22 are used, the 22 Lr is meant, all the other are indicated as .223, .222, .226

The 22Lr is Lead Round nose, most of the time, with some exceptions , hollowpoints high velocity ( max 1700 fps) where as the .222 and .223 start with 2250 fps upwards

the 9mm or .355 cal has a standard weight of 124 Grains , velocity 900 m/s

Its all about surface area been hit , deformation of the bullet, weight and speed

a larger surface area hit with same weight of the bullet and same speed, will result in less penetration depth.

If you shoot a kevlar vest with a tranquilizer gun, the needle will go thru, even a tazer needle would be able to pass. ( sure would like to see that )

OK, true, a .223 bullet can weigh twice a .22lr bullet, but a 40gr .22 and a 55-64gr .223 are a lot closer to each other in size than a .223 is to a 150-180gr .30 cal. bullet. So my point was that the difference btw .223 and .22 is let's say then "mostly" due to the very large velocity difference. The .223 "is" virtually .22 caliber, .003 inch difference, again it's significantly closer to that than to .30 cal. so it's not that off to call an M16 a 22 cal. rifle. A .22-250's also 22 cal. and yet a 40gr bullet in that caliber is a bit deadlier than a .22lr.

The M16 shoots a 5.56mm round which is higher pressure than .223 and all versions of that round are 3000fps +/-, even for commercial .223 2250 is very much on the slow end.

Speed kills. That said, big and slow has its virtues.

Anyway, this conversion probably should be moved to the non-existent TV gun forum LOL.

Yes sir you are corect

[RigPig]

As said, the Mongols were using silk vests very effectively. I understood the effectiveness was due to very tight weaving, and would suggest that they look at somehow interlocking the cocoons, not just gluing them together.

" from .22 calibre weapons to an M16 "

I'm no gun nut, but isn't an M16 also 22 calibre? And shouldn't the tests be with 9mm handguns as being very common?

I am a gun nut :-)

If it can stop a .17 bee caliber, it can stop almost anything...

If it can stop a M16 bullet, it sure can stop a 9mm or even a .44 magnum...

But can it stop an arrow of a crossbow ? or a sharp ice-pick ?

Only if the bullets gets "flattened" it will be stopped by a kevlar vest. That why they ad ceramic or steel plates in heavy armour vests..

But even a standard 308 armor piercing round( Caliber .30 or 7,62 mm) ( will blast thru ) ( if you look to the standard ammo for the machine guns used and in use, you'l see 1 black ( armor piercing) one red ( tracer round) and 3 standard bullets, this for every 5 rounds...

Stil to be found by the thousands lying around... Same for the 30-06 standard rifle, with the ammo from the .30 machine gun...

I doubt many folks know this. Hell I didn't until recently.

A .30-06 round.

.30 calibre.....but why the -06?

The US Army approved the round for use in their weapons in 1906.

Yeah an M16 round might be a tiny caliber at 5.56 mm, but the brass & gunpowder behind it are nothing to be sneezed at.

I've shot thousands of M16 rounds in the Army.

My nephew bought an AR-15 & I TOLD him to use earplugs. He didn't think it could be all THAT loud. He was wrong.

---------------

Another interesting bit of trivia. The flash suppressor at the end of the barrel is to reduce flash to the shooter, so it doesn't affect his vision in combat.

the 06 comes from the year 1906

before it was the .303

from 1903 ( also called the 303 british.)

CLOSE... but no cigar....

the 30-06 was indeed from the year 1906, the .303 cartridge was bought into service in 1889 .303 is the diameter of the projectile.

Russian 7.62 projectiles are closer to .303 than .308 or 7.62 NATO

[Howitzer]

A bulletproof vest, even if it does stop the bullet. may not protect the wearer from Harm or damage by a fast moving round.

That's because of the momentum of the round that must be dissipated somehow.

In other words, even if the round doesn't penetrate the "bulletproof vest" the "shock" from a fast moving bullet may knock you right off your feet.... or even break bones in your body.

Although a M-16 round is only a .223 caliber round, it is traveling at a high velocity and may bring down a full grown man from it's velocity "shock" on impact. (momentum) alone.

well it helps doesn't it?

Just like how a seat belt doesn't guarantee you won't get seriously injured in a car crash or wearing a helmet mean you won't get a serious head injury in a bike accident but they do provide some protection. Apply that logic to the bullet proof vest.

Perhaps in future if you are ever in such a situation you shouldn't wear a bullet proof vest because it seems like it's a hindrance to you.

[anon4546543]

After I left Aussie infantry, I can assertain that I am no gun nut, nor a veteran. Other than 9mm browning pistols we fired a weapon called a Self Loading Rifle (SLR) and M16. I became a good shot, marksman with the M16. But long days at a target range bores me. But to what I was taught. The SLR fired a 7.62 rimless round at 2700 ft per sec. It was in reality a version of the Belgian FN rifle. It had a combat range of 400 m and the M16 (5.56) was about the same. The 5.56 round travelled at 3700 ft per sec. The difference was the hitting capability. M16 was a through and through round. SLR was a rip your arm off or blow a big hole in you. Not sure how either round would cope with Kevlar, spider web or reinforced silk web. But I believe a 7.62 round would knock you down and maybe cause internal injuries especially if fired up close. I don't have all the facts, but this is what I saw.

[Longtooth]

As said, the Mongols were using silk vests very effectively. I understood the effectiveness was due to very tight weaving, and would suggest that they look at somehow interlocking the cocoons, not just gluing them together.

" from .22 calibre weapons to an M16 "

I'm no gun nut, but isn't an M16 also 22 calibre? And shouldn't the tests be with 9mm handguns as being very common?

M16 has a relatively "huge" powder charge behind it, and WILL PENETRATE a normal police kevlar vest. Very high velocity. Velocity gives exponential power. Twice the bullet speed is 4x the power. 3x the bullet speed is 9x the power. Smaller projectiles penetrate fiber masses better than larger projectiles with the same power behind them. I'm thinking glued, laminated silk cloth would be better, but I'm sure these guys have tried that. Waiting for the synthetic commercialization of spider silk.

[kovaltech]

the 06 comes from the year 1906

before it was the .303

from 1903 ( also called the 303 british.)

Not exactly. The .303 was British and only British, used in the Enfield rifles. 1903 would be the M1903 Springfield rifle, which was only produced with the .30-06 round despite the 3-year difference in name. Before the M1903 were the Krag rifles firing a Krag cartridge.

Yup , my mistake, i need new glasses... it was the 30.03 before and not the 303... my mind played a trick with fast reading...

[kovaltech]

CLOSE... but no cigar....

the 30-06 was indeed from the year 1906, the .303 cartridge was bought into service in 1889 .303 is the diameter of the projectile.

Russian 7.62 projectiles are closer to .303 than .308 or 7.62 NATO

Lets share a beer and a few cigars now we are at it...

the 308 is a .30 cal or a 7,62mm

so is the 300 WM, the 300 whisper, the 30-40 krag, the 303 british, the 30-30... the 30-06...endless

or any round with the starter 30...

Same for the 223, 222, 224, 226..... all same calliber ... ( waking up sleeping dogs now )

The confusing will start at the 270... the 708 and more calibers... ( the 708 is the same round as the 308, but downsized in .284 even another downsized in a .243 same brass size )

Lets start with the coffee , grab a few beers, the lady's and after the cigars...

[kovaltech]

Anyhow, on topic, this armour could be a good thing to protect the person who's wearing it...

But also make a remark on the effectiveness against the used caliber... and speed... don't forget to tell the bad guy's to aim at the cross stitched on the vest...

[Don Mega]

Anyhow, on topic, this armour could be a good thing to protect the person who's wearing it...

But also make a remark on the effectiveness against the used caliber... and speed... don't forget to tell the bad guy's to aim at the cross stitched on the vest...

Vests should have a defeat standard listed in the purchasing documentation but suffice to say if there is no hard strike plate then the vest is typically only suited to defeat hand guns.