Diesel Gen Set Start Up After A Year

[carlyai]

I have not started my 5 KVA diesel gen set for about a year.

I realise this is bad practice.

I will change the oil and charge the battery before I start it.

What other things should I do before I start it?

[lopburi3]

Have not used a generator in about 30 years but diesel fuel tends to become contaminated with water so I would drain any water as first step (there should be a procedure to do so in manual - water drains from bottom until you get diesel) - that was about the only frequent maintenance they required other than oil check and keeping battery charged. .

[carlyai]

Have not used a generator in about 30 years but diesel fuel tends to become contaminated with water so I would drain any water as first step (there should be a procedure to do so in manual - water drains from bottom until you get diesel) - that was about the only frequent maintenance they required other than oil check and keeping battery charged. .

Ok thanks for that.

I thought I may have to put some lubrcant in the cylinders or something like that, but I've never played with a diesel before.

[RichCor]

oooh, can't wait to hear what color smoke is going to be emitted.

You may need to check the glo-plug for corrosion or fouling.

What does the owner's manual give about scheduled maintenance and monthly exercise under load?

According to that fibber Internet (apparently a treatise, really) :

Old oil left in the engine becomes acidic and can corrode the inside of your engine

Don't forget to change the old sealer O-ring when you install a new oil filter

Check your engine's electrical wiring for loose or dirty connections

Keep your diesel tank full to avoid microbial growth in the tank

Moisture build up can cause damage to your generator. When you exercise your generator it heats up the generator windings and eliminates this moisture build up. This monthly exercise regime also lubricates all of the engine seals and components and helps to prevent carbon build up.

...from yet another forum post somewhere on the Internet:

Random Person #1: The problem with brief periods of running is that oxides of sulphur are formed during the combustion process. These combine with the moisture produced by combustion to form sulphuric/ous acids, typically in the top ring area. Corrosion then takes place over a period of time. It is much better when winterising an engine to turn it off when thoroughly warmed up, then leave it alone until the start of next season. The practice of starting it in the winter to 'check everything is OK' is the worst thing you can do for it. The amount of water that will accumulate in the stationary engine is minute and will do absolutely no harm. Years ago there were additives that could be added to oils in engines that were to be left for extended periods. These are now pretty much obsolete as modern oils can do the job on their own.

Random Person #2: The reason modern engines need to be run under load is because chrome rings can glaze bores, with the result the engine will smoke and use a lot of oil. I first became aware of this a few years ago, when a friend with a garage fitted a reconditioned engine to a small van. Another friend (sadly deceased) who was a tractor mechanic, also had the same problem after fitting pistons and liners. He told the farmer to work the tractor, but he left it idling for some time to 'run her in'.

80% of engine wear is in the first 10 minutes before the engine reaches operating temperature. The best way to protect your engine is to run to operating temperature, change the oil, filters etc. then leave standing with the proper mix of antifreeze in the cooling system.

Random Person #3: Most of what has been said about condensation is true - lightly loaded engines can suffer badly from condensation, leading to premature failure. Off load, a diesel may take hours to warm up to working temprature throughout. An extended thrash at or near full throttle will do a lot to put things right, but if water, sulphur and acids are allowed to remain they will attack the engine internals and cause premature failure. Valve springs are for example very prone to failure if condensation remains on them. The head may develop local hot spiots, and become distorted leading to gasket failure. Acids and other contaminants in the lube will attack bearings and journals - and so it goes on.

Much can be learned from observing the type of smoke emitted by distressed diesel engines. (Smoke Signals)

Black smoke from exhaust - incomplete fuel combustion. Can be due to injector problems, high load, poor compression and valve wear.

More than normal black smoke and a smell of diesel from the exhaust - Smoke most likely to be evident immediately after starting the engine and on acceleration. The power output of the engine may well reduce as the symptom advances. This condition probably indicates worn valves

Blue smoke from exhaust - burning engine oil that has found its way into the combustion chamber. A little is normal on start-up until the pistons and rings warm and seat fully, but if it continues the likely cause is wear of oil control rings and/or bores.

Large amounts of blue smoke from the exhaust after periods of tick-over, disappearing soon after revs are increased, probably indicates worn valve guides.

White smoke from exhaust - Two possibilities: either unburned fuel or steam. Holding a cool mirror or glass bottle in the flow can help to identify which it is. Unburned fuel indicates that at least one cylinder is not firing. If no other faults are seen it is likely that the injector spray pattern needs attention.

Oily grey smoke - coming out of the open oil filler cap and crankcase breather hose in significant amounts with the engine warm and running, possibly with a smell of diesel fuel. Shows that combustion pressure is passing down the bores into the crankcase. Likely causes could be broken or worn rings, badly worn pistons, and possibly worn or deeply scored cylinder(s). Best confirmation of worn bores, or at the very least broken oil control rings, is that oil consumption will be high. An engine in good condition will consume a small amount, perhaps 0.5 to 1.0 litres per 100 hours; higher figures are suspect.

Little puffs of white smoke which smell of diesel from the exhaust on starting from cold. Almost certainly the engine has a compression problem.

[carlyai]

Thanks Rich.

Good to hear from you again.

Unfortunately the manual got all wet and stuck together, and I can't find a new manual.

Thanks for the info and I'll keep and eye on the smoke.

[Bcgardener]

When engines have been sitting that long it's a good practice to prevent the engine from starting by leaving the stop lever or know in the stop position (or remove the wire from the fuel solenoid if it has one), then turn the engine over till you get oil pressure. This will make sure that everything has sufficient lubrication before the engine runs.

Definitely change the oil and filter as well. A new fuel filter would also be a good idea.

Being Thailand, also make sure that nothing has decided to build a home inside the air cleaner.

[carlyai]

When engines have been sitting that long it's a good practice to prevent the engine from starting by leaving the stop lever or know in the stop position (or remove the wire from the fuel solenoid if it has one), then turn the engine over till you get oil pressure. This will make sure that everything has sufficient lubrication before the engine runs.

Definitely change the oil and filter as well. A new fuel filter would also be a good idea.

Being Thailand, also make sure that nothing has decided to build a home inside the air cleaner.

Thanks for that, good advice and all good advice so far.

Off course in my stupidity i didn't buy any spare filters or cleaners when I bought the imported diesel from China.

I'm at present trying to unstick the pages of the manual to find the parts you mentioned to see if I can get the filters in Thailand.

Stupidity catches up.

[carlyai]

If I put the manual with the stuck pages in the microwave, would that help unstick the pages?

The manual is not wet anymore, just all stuck together.

As I unstick the pages, half the typset stays on the other page.

Any easy ways?

[carlyai]

If I put the manual with the stuck pages in the microwave, would that help unstick the pages?

The manual is not wet anymore, just all stuck together.

As I unstick the pages, half the typset stays on the other page.

Any easy ways?

Smart wife and a hair dryer seem to be doing the trick.

[RichCor]

Watched a lot of YouTube vids last night after my post on people starting up idle and old diesel generators. From 1, 5, 10, 15, 25 years idle, each video showed they were able to start it up.

The major take away from my reading was to make very sure that all conditions were good for the first 10 minutes of runtime

Fresh new oil, filters, O-ring, check oil plugs, check for leaks

Check the existing fuel quality, if separated or algae then replace with new, check or replace fuel filter

If possible, get the device to lubricate itself a few times before starting

Check condition of starting battery, cables

Check condition of generating components, wires, switches, and plug points

Check and follow manufacturer's instructions for maintenance schedule, especially the load and run times minimum requirements

I think it will probably be fine.

[JAS21]

I know that this is Thailand and it's warm but should you not IR the generator. Probably a little overkill ....

[carlyai]

I know that this is Thailand and it's warm but should you not IR the generator. Probably a little overkill ....

Sorry, I don't know what IR means. Inspect and Repair?

[Artisi]

When engines have been sitting that long it's a good practice to prevent the engine from starting by leaving the stop lever or know in the stop position (or remove the wire from the fuel solenoid if it has one), then turn the engine over till you get oil pressure. This will make sure that everything has sufficient lubrication before the engine runs.

Definitely change the oil and filter as well. A new fuel filter would also be a good idea.

Being Thailand, also make sure that nothing has decided to build a home inside the air cleaner.

This is the best suggestion so far re cranking the engine over until you see some oil pressure (assuming it has a gauge) - the difficult part is isolating the fuel from the injector/s so that it doesn't fire-up - you might need to disconnect the fuel line after the filter or before the injector/s (if practical / possible) while cranking it over. Don't over do it on the starter as you might overheat the windings - no long term cranking - better off with a couple of cranking sessions and allowing the starter motor to cool down a bit.

[Crossy]

I know that this is Thailand and it's warm but should you not IR the generator. Probably a little overkill ....

Sorry, I don't know what IR means. Inspect and Repair?

I think JAS is suggesting you do an insulation resistance check on the generator.

If you have a megger / IR tester then go for it but only at 250V, but it's probably fine unless it's been out in the weather.

It's been a couple of days now, did it start ok??

[carlyai]

I know that this is Thailand and it's warm but should you not IR the generator. Probably a little overkill ....

Sorry, I don't know what IR means. Inspect and Repair?

I think JAS is suggesting you do an insulation resistance check on the generator.

If you have a megger / IR tester then go for it but only at 250V, but it's probably fine unless it's been out in the weather.

It's been a couple of days now, did it start ok??

Hi and thanks again Crossy.

IR = insulation resistance, that makes sense.

I have only started it once from new and it has been all wrapped up, sleeping soundly, even the snakes haven't got in.

I don't have a megga so hopefully the gen is still OK.

Bought a battery conditioner on the net and have nearly finished the recondition cycle.

Haven't started it yet, as have also been getting quotes and seeing 'tradesmen' about laying some Q Blocks for the garage.

I won't start it until I draw up the electrics connection, using that TinyCad you advised me on, and the steps I will take to connect the house phase load.

I want to post it on the forum first to see if anyone can spot something wrong with my start up proceedure.

I have tried to Google my engine name and model but no luck. I have also tried to just Google 5 KVA gen set manual, but no luck.

I would like to get a manual.

My deisel is a: DOING, model no. DFB5500SS, 5 KVA, 5 KW, 22.7 A.

Any ideas how to get a manual?

[Crossy]

This one http://www.chinadoing.cn/productsdetail.aspx?ProductsID=128&ProductsCateId=189&CateId=189 ?

Try emailing the manufacturer's agent in South Africa (the only location showing an email address) http://www.chinadoing.cn/contact.aspx

They do have a Download page where one would expect the manuals to reside, but it's 'coming soon'

[carlyai]

This one http://www.chinadoing.cn/productsdetail.aspx?ProductsID=128&ProductsCateId=189&CateId=189 ?

Try emailing the manufacturer's agent in South Africa (the only location showing an email address) http://www.chinadoing.cn/contact.aspx

They do have a Download page where one would expect the manuals to reside, but it's 'coming soon'

Yeah, that's it!

Thanks again.

Should have Googled Chinadoing then.

[carlyai]

Looking up some old forum info on genset wiring, I realised I haven't installed a breaker on the ouput of the genset where the cable goes underground to my transfer switch, about 10 M.

I have a 30 A RCD breaker which I thought I would install as the current O/P of the genset is only 27.5 A.

May be wrong thinking as not counting current spikes etc and a lack of knowledge.

Anyway, this is my problem: the thickness of the cable wire to the transfer switch is larger than the cable hole into my breaker.

Are there crimps around that make this possible or should I get a bigger breaker?

ALSO

When cleaning the genset air filter, I am a bit worried that the air intake may not be enough. When the place holding the genset was built it was supposed to be all mesh near the air intake, but my lovely builders decided to make the building fancy and bricked the mess part in.

There is a 10 cm gap between the air intake filter and the building. There is plenty of space around the air intake, on both sides of the gen set, but not directly opposite the air fliter.

Is this going to be a problem?

Should I just fire it up and put it on load and see what happens, or should I knock down the wall?

[steven100]

drain the diesel tank until all fuel is out. fill the tank with new diesel. change the oil . charge the battery.

then .... kick her in the guts !!!!!! ( that means turn the key and start her )

[Crossy]

That's a pretty fat wire you have there Carl, looks rather larger than the 6mm² that would be needed for 30A. Doesn't the genset have its own internal breaker?

Also that air intake does look rather close to the wall, remember that's where your engine gets its cooling air so any restriction will affect the engine life. I'd knock a hole in the wall directly by the intake and another where the exhaust air comes out. You can put a nice grating over it to keep the wildlife out.

[carlyai]

That's a pretty fat wire you have there Carl, looks rather larger than the 6mm² that would be needed for 30A. Doesn't the genset have its own internal breaker?

Also that air intake does look rather close to the wall, remember that's where your engine gets its cooling air so any restriction will affect the engine life. I'd knock a hole in the wall directly by the intake and another where the exhaust air comes out. You can put a nice grating over it to keep the wildlife out.

Had wire left over from the mains run to the transfer switch so used that.

The genset does have it's own breaker, on/off switch, but when looking up previous circuits, they show from the gen set to a breaker first.

You're right, one breaker is enough.

Will check again that the on/off switch is a breaker.

It was also suggested, way back then, that I should have a RCD on the genset, but wires from the gen set go underground and terminate on the chageover switch so probably not necessary.

Just tried the on/off switch, feels like a cct breaker.

So guess I now have to just connect the incoming cable to the male mains plug and stick it in the female.

Maybe I need to terminate the incoming cable somewhere first and run 6 mm cable to the male plug?

Maybe solder the main incoming cable to the 6 mm cable and put them in a box?

The rear of the genset is facing onto the boundary wall, so can't go knocking holes in that.

Will get the hole knocked out today hopefully.

Don't know if you read any of my posts, long ago, about my jet pump.

You probably know this already, but when I went away for this last 3 months, and it is the wet season, the bore pump/jet pump didn't have to work, so eventually the water did drain away through the bottom stop valve and had to be primed again. Causing our little house looker-afterer great worries.

So using the jet pump weekly is fine, but seems every 3 months is not fine.

[carlyai]

drain the diesel tank until all fuel is out. fill the tank with new diesel. change the oil . charge the battery.

then .... kick her in the guts !!!!!! ( that means turn the key and start her )

Good thanks for that.

Seems like tha't the thing to do.

Just gota get my load sorted out as I want to run it for a good hour.

[carlyai]

Just decided to solder the wires together and connect the 6 mm2 to the plug.

Knocking a hole in the wall tomorrow.

[carlyai]

That's a pretty fat wire you have there Carl, looks rather larger than the 6mm² that would be needed for 30A. Doesn't the genset have its own internal breaker?

Also that air intake does look rather close to the wall, remember that's where your engine gets its cooling air so any restriction will affect the engine life. I'd knock a hole in the wall directly by the intake and another where the exhaust air comes out. You can put a nice grating over it to keep the wildlife out.

Got the air intake sorted, hopefully.

Now going to have to go back and think about the load for the deisel again.

The chageover switch is wired from the genset to supply one phase of the house. This is the black phase.

On that phase are: kitchen lights, main bedroom lights, house rear lights plus LED spot, plugs outside rear house, plugs laundry room, plugs kitchen, and a Daikin RM24NV2S inverter air conditioner.

All the house lights are LED, there is usually nothing on the outside plugs, laundry room, and only an ocassional microwave on in the kitchen. The air con uses about 8 to 9 A according to the meter on the AVR.

I read somewhere, again a while ago, that you should load a diesel at about 90%. If my deisel is rated at 5 KVA, 5KW, 22.7 A, then if I go on the number of Amps for 90% load that would be = 20 A.

So I really need to feed another phase as well as the black phase at the output of my changeover switch, or maybe the whole 3 phases?

The pumps are on another circuit which is isolated from the house so that I don't get false SafeTCut trips. (as advised in another thread).

I have 3 inverter air cons, each on a different phase, and they draw: 8 A, 4 A, 4A.

Maybe I should wire the three phases to the output of the transfer switch, and for monthly testing only run the 3 air conditioners?

For emergency operation I could drop off one aircon?

I would switch off my 3 phase water heater before I transfered load.

While testing I noticed another problem.

I tested the curent drawn by the 3 phase water systems looking at the meters of the AVR's.

Red phase, 8 A, Blue phase 8 A, Black phase 0 A.

I have two 3 phase multipoint systems. I checked one with hot water running, the same as above, then checked the other one with hot water running, the same as above.

Do 3 phase hot water systems get the water hot with only 2 phases working?

This is the first time I have tested this, maybe the electrician wired something wrong from the beginning?

When I turn on the air con on the black phase, I get the 8 A reading, so it would seem the AVR is working.

BUT, I have noted on the black phase that when the voltage goes low incomming, the AVR still operates but the fans run very slowly and when I look at the voltage on the AVR it is about 100 V. I would have thought it would have cut off by then.

I think I have to stop worrying about the diesel load for a while and find out what happened to the water heaters black phase?

[carlyai]

That's a pretty fat wire you have there Carl, looks rather larger than the 6mm² that would be needed for 30A. Doesn't the genset have its own internal breaker?

Also that air intake does look rather close to the wall, remember that's where your engine gets its cooling air so any restriction will affect the engine life. I'd knock a hole in the wall directly by the intake and another where the exhaust air comes out. You can put a nice grating over it to keep the wildlife out.

Got the air intake sorted, hopefully.

AirIntakeMod.JPG

Now going to have to go back and think about the load for the deisel again.

The chageover switch is wired from the genset to supply one phase of the house. This is the black phase.

On that phase are: kitchen lights, main bedroom lights, house rear lights plus LED spot, plugs outside rear house, plugs laundry room, plugs kitchen, and a Daikin RM24NV2S inverter air conditioner.

All the house lights are LED, there is usually nothing on the outside plugs, laundry room, and only an ocassional microwave on in the kitchen. The air con uses about 8 to 9 A according to the meter on the AVR.

I read somewhere, again a while ago, that you should load a diesel at about 90%. If my deisel is rated at 5 KVA, 5KW, 22.7 A, then if I go on the number of Amps for 90% load that would be = 20 A.

So I really need to feed another phase as well as the black phase at the output of my changeover switch, or maybe the whole 3 phases?

The pumps are on another circuit which is isolated from the house so that I don't get false SafeTCut trips. (as advised in another thread).

I have 3 inverter air cons, each on a different phase, and they draw: 8 A, 4 A, 4A.

Maybe I should wire the three phases to the output of the transfer switch, and for monthly testing only run the 3 air conditioners?

For emergency operation I could drop off one aircon?

I would switch off my 3 phase water heater before I transfered load.

While testing I noticed another problem.

I tested the curent drawn by the 3 phase water systems looking at the meters of the AVR's.

Red phase, 8 A, Blue phase 8 A, Black phase 0 A.

I have two 3 phase multipoint systems. I checked one with hot water running, the same as above, then checked the other one with hot water running, the same as above.

Do 3 phase hot water systems get the water hot with only 2 phases working?

This is the first time I have tested this, maybe the electrician wired something wrong from the beginning?

When I turn on the air con on the black phase, I get the 8 A reading, so it would seem the AVR is working.

BUT, I have noted on the black phase that when the voltage goes low incomming, the AVR still operates but the fans run very slowly and when I look at the voltage on the AVR it is about 100 V. I would have thought it would have cut off by then.

I think I have to stop worrying about the diesel load for a while and find out what happened to the water heaters black phase?

[carlyai]

Just did some testing with my VoltAlert and the 3 phases are present to the water heaters.

Why isn't it showing up on the black AVR amp meter?

Turned off the black phase and still hot water.

Maybe the water heaters are wired like that. On low setting they only use 2 phases and on high setting they use 3 phases.

Will look at the hotwater system manual.

From the manual seems the third phase, or in my case the black phase, is switched on when you need hotter water.

Tried the heater on the hotter setting and 3 phases now drawing the same amount of current.

Back to diesel load thinking.

Edited September 23, 2015 by carlyai

[Litlos]

You only really need about 50% load for a test run on a diesel, when you get down around 20% load is when with extended running you will get problems with bores glazing etc.

Cheers

[carlyai]

You only really need about 50% load for a test run on a diesel, when you get down around 20% load is when with extended running you will get problems with bores glazing etc.

Cheers

Ok, thanks for that.

Then I should wire the genset output from the change over switch to all the 3 phases and just run the 3 airconditioners which would give 8A + 4A + 4A = 16A.

I start the gen set and let it run for 2 min or more?

Then throw the chageover switch to 0, both mains and genset disconnected, then throw to genset.

Then turn on the air cons one at a time and let the engine run for an hour?

Does that sound OK?

[Crossy]

Provided you have no 3-phase appliances other than the water heaters then you can wire all 3-phases (or two of them) to your genset all will work fine.

Do be aware that your neutral current will then be the arithmetical sum of the phase currents not the 120^o phasor sum, with that baby genset it really won't be an issue.

[carlyai]

Provided you have no 3-phase appliances other than the water heaters then you can wire all 3-phases (or two of them) to your genset all will work fine.

Do be aware that your neutral current will then be the arithmetical sum of the phase currents not the 120^o phasor sum, with that baby genset it really won't be an issue.

Ok, thanks for that.

The single phase input from the gen set is wired to the black phase of the 3 phase change over switch emergency power input.

Should I chain from the black phase input (standby power) of the changeover switch to the other red and blue phase, and then take the outputs to the same output terminals that the mains changeover switch is on?

Or, should I leave the black phase input (standby power) as it is and chain the outputs from the black phase to the same terminals that the mains chageover switch is on?

Does it matter which way I do it?

Maybe I need to explain more:

There are 4 cables from the mains output of the chageover switch (3 phases plus neutral) that go to the SafeTCut. The standby output cables will be terminated on the mains output connectors as there are only 4 cables that go to the SafeTCut.

But Crossy, won't the phase current be the same as the neutral current as it's all coming from the one phase output of the genset?

Edited September 23, 2015 by carlyai