Are Teachers Underpaid?

[PeaceBlondie]

"If we get rid of the backpackers, salaries will rise." Why, if the market now pays teachers their market 'worth'?

Simple. They dilute the market.......

Teaching salaries are relatively high in Japan. Why? For one thing you pretty well have to have a degree, so right away the talent pool is narrowed. Of course the Japanese are willing to pay decently to get decent teachers. Thailand isn't willing to do this.

It knows it is a country with pulling power unlike other places which are far less pleasant to live in.

There you have it, in my arrogant opinion. As I said during the visa-on-arrival crisis, salaries are low because price is inelastic. I think. And I don't mean to say it's the fault of simply the parents' association. Maybe the administrators/owners who set the salaries.

[In the Rai!]

"If we get rid of the backpackers, salaries will rise." Why, if the market now pays teachers their market 'worth'?

Simple. They dilute the market.......

Teaching salaries are relatively high in Japan. Why? For one thing you pretty well have to have a degree, so right away the talent pool is narrowed. Of course the Japanese are willing to pay decently to get decent teachers. Thailand isn't willing to do this.

It knows it is a country with pulling power unlike other places which are far less pleasant to live in.

I don't agree with this. You need to put things into perspective. I lived in Japan teaching for 3 years and yes I earned great money. Did I spend alot of money? yes I did because the cost of living is alot higher. It is all relative to your overheads and lifestyles. I could not afford to go out drinking every night or eating out every night. This just was not an option. Teachers who complain about their salaries I feel sometimes need to have a look at their lifestyles as well. Yes they may only earn 30/40 or 50k a month but they are out most nights living like kings.

Comparitively speaking I can save more money hear than I did in Japan if I chose to live the same lifestyles. In other words if I lived in Japan like I do here I would not have enough to get through the month.

On the other side of the coin some teachers probably arent getting as much money as they should, but are they qualified? I have met some really great teachers who are not qualified and complain about what they earn. But are they doing anything about it. NO! If this is a new career that you are wanting to pursue or endevour over the next however many years than DO YOUR TIME. Stick with the lowly paid school for a few years, get yourself a TEFL and move up the ladder. You dont go straight into the top of the food chain back home either. You need to work your way up..

I don't work at an International school and earn in excess of 100k a month but than I CHOSE to live in Chianrai and there are probably alot more highly qualified teachers out there aswell. So I know that if I want more money I have to A) get more qualified or B move to Bangkok or C) move to Bangkok and get more qualified. But at the end of the day I am happy where I am and what I am earning.

Just my 2 cents worth.

In The Rai!

Edited September 29, 2006 by In the Rai!

[johnnyk]

Yes, I know Japan is far more expensive to live but I know several people came home with enough money to make downpayments on a house after 3-4 years in Japan. I don't know anyone who came home from LoS and did this.

Interestingly, Cambo and Viet Nam generally pay at least as well and better than Thailand despite being much poorer countries. I don't know if they have stricter hiring practices or not, just an interesting factlet.

Of course, Japan and LoS are quite different lifestyles to be sure and attract quite different people. No question a party lifestyle is unsustainable in Japan on a teaching salary.

I agree there are people who can really teach yet have no formal qualification just as I have taught with M. Ed (TESOL) people who had no clue how to relate to students but sure knew a whole lot about regressive mean co-efficients blablablah

My point is that Japan has tougher hiring standards and is willing to pay people who meet the standards (a friend was offered C$62K a year in a uni for 14 contact hours a week and 4 months total paid vacation).

Thailand will hire anybody, the cheaper the better in so many cases because it makes for a better bottom line. The average Thai businessman running a school has no idea how to evaluate a teacher so s/he goes for the cheapest one. Unqualified, inexperienced drunks who have run out of money fit right into this and help keep salaries lower than they should be.

[Loaded]

Teachers who complain about their salaries I feel sometimes need to have a look at their lifestyles as well. Yes they may only earn 30/40 or 50k a month but they are out most nights living like kings.

That is a good point. Also, they eat 3 times a day in restaurants. No chance of that teaching in any other country

[Ijustwannateach]

Just out of curiousity, Loaded- are you playing Devil's Advocate here, or do you really believe this anti-Labour train of thought you're on?

After all, is there some reason teachers SHOULDN'T fight for a bigger slice of what several posters have noted is an awfully big pie? Isn't that the point of our side of the argument? Why should we make Management's arguments for them (not that I think there are that many valid ones at the moment)?

If we can live better here than teachers in other countries, is that a problem with our being over-rewarded, or rather a problem of teachers in other countries being more poorly treated? If we can live here better than Thai teachers do, should we agitate for them in their own country as vulnerable foreigners when they themselves do not?

"Steven"

[Neeranam]

I was a teacher for 10 years and got more than enough money.

It's a very easy job. If you can't accept what Thailand offers then you'll have no enjoyment of your life here - best pack your bags and head to Japan. Teaching in Thailand is not for 'bread-heads'.

Japan and Korea - no thanks.

I get offered gigs a lot in Isarn - 500-1000 baht an hour teaching at unis and colleges. I teach two little girls now for 1000 baht an hour. It's a piece of cake and very enjoyable.

That's well paid if you ask me. Christ, my rent is 3000 a month - 3 bedroomed house.

I had to do a couple of years in the Thai schooling system, and a few years in the language schools to learn the trade. TEFL teaching is not a profession.

Ever heard of the phrase, 'you can't have your cake and eat it' ?

After all, is there some reason teachers SHOULDN'T fight for a bigger slice of what several posters have noted is an awfully big pie?

Most of the teachers I've seen don't deserve a bigger piece of the pie - they do bugger all.

If you want a big slice of the pie start yor own school.

Edited September 29, 2006 by Neeranam

[Loaded]

Just out of curiousity, Loaded- are you playing Devil's Advocate here, or do you really believe this anti-Labour train of thought you're on?

Over the years I've experienced both sides: the always-complaining-want-more-money-despite-doing-nothing-to-justify-it whingers and the tight-fisted school-owners. They are the extremes, but I do know that most schools aren't a bottomless honeypot and most teachers work hard for their dosh.

I am playing devil's advocate here to a certain extent as i thought there wouldn't be too much sympathy for the teachers are overpaid stance.

[PeaceBlondie]

Loaded, I always appreciate your valuable comments. This thread, however, confuses me. You began with a statement in post #1, asking "Why do so many foreigners believe that they are worth 3 to 4 times the salary of Thai teachers who do the same job?" Also, in post #3, "Are we really worth three times more than a Thai science teacher?" In post #17, you compared our salaries with a Thai court judge. (oranges to apples, durian to longan comparison in any event). In post #20, you said that farang get big pensions from their home country when they retire.

I don't agree with your apparent position. Since we're struggling in vain to compare ourselves with "Thai teachers who do the same job," would you please tell us the average wage of a Thai teacher in a matayom school, teaching English or science, including benefits and perks? What is the salary, including bribes, of a Thai judge in an appeals court? Hey, why not compare us to the lady who cleans the toilets? Why not compare a betelnut saleman in Yangon with a neurosurgeon in Manhattan?

It appears that you're making generalizations without any facts with which to begin with.

I've playing Angel's Advocate. Ooops, no emoticon for an angel. All right, I'm playing first violin. Or cowboy

[the swagman]

Interesting thread fellas.

Allow me to add my two bits worth.

Are Thai teachers underpaid?

Yes, most definitely. They do a <deleted> load of work and put up with the same and their school salary is vastly dispropprtiionate to their worth. They do however get a lot more kickbacks and perks than they let on. Secondary school teachers always do after hour classes, they work weekends and many do private gigs near their home or in their home. In one particular place, where there was a number of boarding schools, the teachers had rooms for rent for students where they were provided with room and water, but paid extra for food and extra tuition. These people were not short of a baht. Of course they did claim to be a bill paying time, but thats another issue and thread.

Should falang teachers be paid more.

As someone said earlier, you have to put in your time, or as I say you have to pay your dues.

I started off in teaching in a one man school in Bkk, later moved to a reasonably well known language school where I was paid the low going rate. I did what I had to do and built up contacts and experience. This paid off. The more experience you have the better jobs come along. Eventually I got a job at a Thai uni, through contacts and a good reputation. I have been at a uni for the better part of 20 years now and I am not earning what international school teachers make but then I dont have that 'teaching certificate that teachers seem to need now, it wasn't around when I started. I am a teacher or instructor, I am not an 'educator. What I do have is experience and the knowhow to teach at all levels and to make the students feel like they are getting something from it.

A 'newbie' who comes here expecting to get 100k a month and to party with the girls at night and to come to school bright eyed and bushy tailed for another lesson on introductions and 'ask me a question' type lesson will not get to far and will always bitch about how poorly they are being paid.

The wife and I have bought a house it is all paid for , the kid is going ok and I have no regrets about what I did to get that. I worked hard, granted, but then doesn't or shouldn't everyone when they are trying to establish a life?

From my uni gigs and people who I taught and friends I made I had quite a successful little outside job that was paying for a lot of expenses.

I paid my dues.

I also have th epriviledge and good fortune to have met some very decent and long lasting Thai friends who are real people with real lives, which is a reason I find some of the comments on the other threads a bit of a bore now and then.

[Gerontion]

What is the average salary of a Mattayom teacher? I don't know but I do know well three Thais teaching in the tertiary sector who have PhDs, two from British universities and one from an American university but all of which would figure in any list of the top five or six universities in those two countries. Their base salaries are substantially lower than the lowest salary which the most uneducated foreigner can expect, straight off the plane. I know a number of Thais who have recently graduated with MAs from probably the best British universty teaching Applied Linguistics. They will have to wait decades before they earn as much as the starting salary of a foreign teacher. Of course they all earn more than their base salary through private work and overtime but this work is readily available to all but the most hopelessly incompetent foreigner. I really cannot see how such extreme differentials can be so easily brushed aside.

[Ijustwannateach]

Here are some brushes for you, "Gerry":

1. Old Money: For a lot of professors, the job is a sinecure- it's a high-status, high-respect job that they use to have something to do because they don't need the money- the salary could be multiples of what it is and still be inconsequential to some of their families.

2. New Money: Since you "know" these professors, I'm sure some of them told you about the extremely highly paid tutoring/private teaching that they do? Some of these jobs are so highly paid that they simply cream off a bit and pass them down to foreign teachers, who think they're getting a real deal teaching one or two hours a week at 1500B (when the pre-subcontracted rate was more like 2500B/hour!)

3. Private Businesses: Did I ever mention how running a school or tutoring business (hard for a foreigner to do but relatively easy for a Thai academic) can be an academic goldmine?

4. Job Security: The salary may not be anything to write home about, but you'll never, ever, ever lose this job.

5. Tea Money: The "discounts" on the retail prices of books, entry exam fees, other equipment purchases, and tutoring kickbacks that never seem to find their way into the recorded official budgets.

I could go on... these and other examples serve to explain why teachers decades my senior at various schools across Thailand whose salaries are nominally the same or even lower can afford to drive BMVs to work and shop at Emporium.

To be fair, there are some teachers and professors who for various reasons (usually largely status-related) don't have access to any of these profit-spinning devices- and for them, I truly do feel sorry.

But as I said before- things aren't fair for them, but they aren't agitating to improve their own conditions. Why should we take that risk on their behalf when they won't?

Otherwise, it's back to comparing oranges and apples again.

"Steven"

[Gerontion]

Why do you feel the need to put “know” in scare quotes? One of the people I was referring to teaches at Mor Nor, one at Chula and one at a provincial Rajabhat. Of course, this is an anonymous internet board so anyone could claim anything but are we to put everything which everyone says in quote marks because of this? After all, you have provided no more than I have to substantiate your claims. If you have some reason to doubt the veracity of what I say, fire away but please don't rely on sly innuendo to do what you can't do openly.

But more importantly which – exactly – is the point at which you wish to defend your argument? Through points 1 - 5 you try, by the most wild generalisations imaginable, to claim that the people I was referring to were either actually rather well paid or that their salary was insignificant (and, one can only assume, that I am thus a liar), then that the salary isn't, after all, very much but the fringe benefits are due compensation, then that “things aren't fair for them” (by which it is unclear whether you mean Thai teachers in general or the, by your account, presumably small number who aren't luxuriating in Croesian-like riches afforded by the 2,500 baht per hour teaching opportunities which flow like rivers of champagne through the faculties of Thai universities) and then that the comparisons which you have just made aren't of consequence anyway because we are “comparing oranges and apples”. Ten out of ten for covering your bases but it's not the most convincing defence one could imagine.

I'm not claiming that every Thai teacher is on the breadline but a large number of Thai teachers, who have qualifications to shame almost every foreign teacher in the country, earn substantially less than those who have, at most, a four week course which one could fail only by being catatonic at the time. Despite your protestations, very few Thai teachers have access to the types of money spinners which you claim and the overwhelming majority of junior teachers, who lack these qualifications, earn a pittance. The level of debt amongst Thai teachers is astronomical and every Thai teacher who I know who has an expensive car, carries a mortgage-sized loan to finance it. This fact is of direct relevance to any discussion of the salaries of foreign teachers. After all, if the situation were reversed and you were earning less than your Thai colleagues, you can be sure that that would be a whale-sized bone of contention.

[pap]

Teachers globally are underpaid monetarily in relationship to their responsibility. Just look around the world and you see the consequences of this. They literally hold all our future in their hands and you will find 0 countries where they are held in the monetary regard they should be held.

The more they can be paid the more likely you will draw the best and the brightest. "you get what you pay for" does not quit ring true for the teaching profession because there are a number of teachers who caring exceeds monetary concerns.

[pap]

I'm not claiming that every Thai teacher is on the breadline but a large number of Thai teachers, who have qualifications to shame almost every foreign teacher in the country, earn substantially less than those who have, at most, a four week course which one could fail only by being catatonic at the time. Despite your protestations, very few Thai teachers have access to the types of money spinners which you claim and the overwhelming majority of junior teachers, who lack these qualifications, earn a pittance. The level of debt amongst Thai teachers is astronomical and every Thai teacher who I know who has an expensive car, carries a mortgage-sized loan to finance it. This fact is of direct relevance to any discussion of the salaries of foreign teachers. After all, if the situation were reversed and you were earning less than your Thai colleagues, you can be sure that that would be a whale-sized bone of contention.

Good point but I also beleive the foriegn teachers are needed. Most foreign teachers have traveled which counts for a lot. Most Thai teachers have not. This is because for a female teacher travel is difficult at best unless they are in an exchange program. Which they get zinged for and the debt from this can be large..especially to Thais. It would be in their best interest to be able to send more teachers abroad. Also they expect the teacher to remain on job after teaching abroad. This seams reasonable until you realize that no exception is made should they choose to further their education and teach at the college level. There are some kinks that could be ironed out to homegrow the foreign knowledge foreign teachers bring to the table. But they will always be in demand and should be if you want to understand the world.

[the swagman]

One thing one must realise that in todays world, education is a business. The institutes responsible for educating the youth of today, being lowly kindergartens or pretigious higher level intsitutions, all have come to understand this and as in any kind of business, there is the market forces of supply and demand.

There is a need for falang teachers in this country, and the schools will pay the going rate for them. It's a crap shoot many times as to whether the teacher will be any good or not.

Thai teachers are grossly underpaid, I agree, however, good teachers on the whole are not.

Unlike in the business world where the bottom line is the only line, and the aim of business is to make money, the education field is far more obscure. There are many reasons why people become teachers and teachers who are well educated, well spoken and well spoken about will benefit from what they do, whether they become teachers to make money or for any other reason.

It's a crying shame that where the need for language teaching or any teaching for that matter is most needed is the places where it is not easy to find qualified, effective teachers.

Reread Ijustwannateach's post and understand what he is saying. This is very true.

Old money, new money, job security, and all the little extras are some of the reasons why they are not screaming for change.

[Loaded]

It appears that you're making generalizations without any facts with which to begin with.

True.

[PeaceBlondie]

It appears that you're making generalizations without any facts with which to begin with.

True.

I borrowed that double preposition technique from a lyric by Paul McCartney (Live and Let Die) that says, "...in this ever changing world in which we live in..."

[PeaceBlondie]

One of the people I was referring to teaches at Mor Nor, one at Chula and one at a provincial Rajabhat. [These are Oxbridge/Ivy League Ph.D.'s, you say? Personally, I don't know whether to call that disingeuous, incredible, fatuous, or just plain hyperbole. Let's call it off topic, because the Thai halls of academia (may I add, provincial rajabats?) aren't exactly full of such examples. The question was about a typical Thai matayom teacher. Perhaps the four examples that I know, from 17K to 32K, aren't typical. Besides, they were old money there. Nice try, though.]

I'm not claiming that every Thai teacher is on the breadline but a large number of Thai teachers, who have qualifications to shame almost every foreign teacher in the country, earn substantially less than those who have, at most, a four week course which one could fail only by being catatonic at the time. [There was a farang poster on ThaiVisa with a Ph.D., teaching in a northern province, in his doctoral field. I believe he made 27K.

We spoke of what vehicles teachers drove. I drove a new Honda bike. My first mate, all but Ph.D., drove a rented bike, long distance. The next teacher, unqualified, had no transport. The next guy (BS, MS) got a new truck from his parents back home. I know a science teacher, farang with BS and years of teaching, who has no transport. The next guy, with a BA and TEFL, teaching English and math, no transport. His mate, a motorcycle and then an old car. The next, a backpacker, a rented bike.

Oh, yeah baby, we's just rolling in the dough. Last week the upstairs maid drove my red Ferrari into the east swimming pool, and the valet crashed my older Rolls.

Actually, there were a couple of Thai teachers driving motorcycles, but the late model saloons were numerous, and the Director wasn't the only staff driving a Mercedes.

[Dakhar]

Folks, if you feel English teachers are underpaid or over paid, do a simple excersize. Build you a school, figure in all you expenses, and find your margin.

I have dabled a little into this, and from what I can tell, Englsih teachers are paid a fair wage. Truth is, if they were extremely well paid, I would probably teach myself. But, I feel I am really not qualified to do so...

[Ijustwannateach]

Dakhar, if it's so simple and you've already done it, why don't you simply post the results here for all of us to consider?

[Ijustwannateach]

Gerontion, do you live in Thailand? How do you "know" these professors?

2ndly, you switch gears in your message (as far as I can tell) from college professors to teachers. I'm not going to continue to discuss things with someone whose arguments are moving targets, even if I thought they were sincere in discussion.

"Steven"

[Dakhar]

Ijustwannateach,

OK, if you think you are underpaid, and you are ambitious, I know of a building for you. It is an "education/learning" center. The building is built for one purpose, and that is to facilitate learning. It has net access, PPT projection equipment, sound field speaker system in the larger teaching room that can seat 50 students, and the cieling is sprayed with acoustic treated material to decrease reverberation.

The floors are also carpeted to decrease reverberation.... White boards and desks are on the way...

Now, if you would like to rent such a facility to begin your carreer as a school owner/administrator/teacher and dictate your own income, you are welcome to do so. It is located in the Rangsit clong 6 area, near a Univ. You could either draw Tofl prep students or younger students from a near by private school to the center.

The Univ is about a 7-10 minute moped ride away, and the private school is about 3-5 minutes away.

PM me if you are interested.

(Costs for such a building (without land) around 2 million Baht)

The above is a serious offer.

Now before you dive into this... think about the revenue you can generate, and the associated costs required to generate the revenue. The building could contain at least 80 students comfortably, or 100 at capacity. Upstairs has 4 classrooms, the down stairs has one very large classroom. Do the math, and contact me if you are interested.

[Ijustwannateach]

No, no, no... even if the point of the discussion was getting *out* of teaching, which is not really what I want to do- the issue would not primarily be the money or the facility- it would be the licensing, the ownership, the administration, the work permit, and the visa. You'd have to reassure me in a rock-solid, lawyers-smiling-at-the-paperwork kind of way that I would control the business, it would belong to me, and that no Thai legal loopholes would pull the rug out from under me and leave the financial results of my hard work in someone else's hands.

School facilities are even harder to start up, in terms of the rules. I know someone who tried and gave up (and he *is* a lawyer).

But I thought your point was that teachers were paid a fair wage, not that they had to become business owners to do so- don't see any demonstration of that in your post- in fact, your post sort of hints the opposite, that to make more money you have to become the school owner.

"Steven"

[Dakhar]

IjustwannaT

No, Sorry... that was not my point. Although I can see how you assumed that... The point was, that from a business perspective, English teachers make a fair wage. If someone can prove me wrong, I am very willing to listen. In fact, I hope I am wrong.

IjustwannaT, your demands etc in regards to business protection I believe can be met without issue.

I can not speak for the true owner of the building, but if you are serious about it and the protection of your investment is a key issue, Im here to tell you that is not an issue in this particular case. I believe those demands could be met, and yes a lawyer could be involved. So delete that from your list of objections. I would love to see someone succeed. I have no financial gain in this dealing. IJUSTWANNA see this building be put to good use, and my mother-in-laws money not thrown away.

She or we, also have living quaters availabe. She has a 15 unit apt complex very near the teaching facility (about a 2 minute walk), and my wife has a 7 unit town house complex which is about a 10 minute walk from the teaching center.

I don't know where you are located, but if you want a "walk through" that would be fine.

[In the Rai!]

A previous poster stated how Thai teachers were not infact under paid, as they get after school classes and other benefits. I really think this depends on where you are located and what school you teach at. The majority of Thai teachers in this country earn very little compared to their farang counterparts. At the school I teach at, I am the third highest money earner and the 2 above me are top tier, they have been here for over 25 years, compared to my 1 at this school.

As for the benefits they recieve at my school. Most teach groups of an afternoon everyday and charge the students 100 bt each for the week in a group of 10. They also teach big groups, who study on both Sat and Sun of around 30 students and charge each student 400 bt for the month. These teachers work 7 days a week, long hours just to make what the farang makes in his salary. You can not tell me, that is a benefit. The extra privates are not a benefit. To earn a decent wage they are sacrificing their lives. All they do is teach. This is how life is for the mojority of Thai teachers in rural areas anyway. It is no picnic.

As for our wage, I would love more money myself. Do I deserve more money at this school? No, not when I am earning more than most of the Thai teachers. Are there opportunities to earn more money where I am? No. But If I lived in a place where there are opportunities and more money was important to me, than I would do everything I could to get it. Not whinge and do nothing.

In The Rai!

Edited October 2, 2006 by In the Rai!

[the swagman]

A previous poster stated how Thai teachers were not infact under paid, as they get after school classes and other benefits. I really think this depends on where you are located and what school you teach at. The majority of Thai teachers in this country earn very little compared to their farang counterparts. At the school I teach at, I am the third highest money earner and the 2 above me are top tier, they have been here for over 25 years, compared to my 1 at this school.

As for the benefits they recieve at my school. Most teach groups of an afternoon everyday and charge the students 100 bt each for the week in a group of 10. They also teach big groups, who study on both Sat and Sun of around 30 students and charge each student 400 bt for the month. These teachers work 7 days a week, long hours just to make what the farang makes in his salary. You can not tell me, that is a benefit. The extra privates are not a benefit. To earn a decent wage they are sacrificing their lives. All they do is teach. This is how life is for the mojority of Thai teachers in rural areas anyway. It is no picnic.

As for our wage, I would love more money myself. Do I deserve more money at this school? No, not when I am earning more than most of the Thai teachers. Are there opportunities to earn more money where I am? No. But If I lived in a place where there are opportunities and more money was important to me, than I would do everything I could to get it. Not whinge and do nothing.

In The Rai!

Granted and I feel for these teachers. I have done a lot of work with primary and secondary schol teachers and I have nonthing but admiration for what they do. They work long and hard.

It does a s you said, depend a lot on where you are based. The opporunties for extra classes gets less and less the farther away from the major cities.

You also point out that many Thai teachers work 7 days a week to just make what the farang makes on his salary, I don't think that this is the motivation. They work long and hard because they know that to be a hard working teachers has a short life span.

To earn a decent wage, they are sacrificing their loives. Define decent wage?

In the Rai must be a lot cheaper than in the Mai and I am sure if any of your Thai colleagues are after making a fortune then they are not going to stay in the Rai for the long term.

[PeaceBlondie]

Would it help if we distinguish between newly arrived farang TEFLers, regardless of their documents and quals, and the teachers who have been in LOS for 3 or 4 years? And then, what about the old-timers who think they'll be here forever?

From another angle, maybe the issue is not "how much is a B.Ed., or a BA/BS, or a high school grad, deserve to earn just because they got that much education?" Maybe the issue is what it costs for a newly arrived/midterm/longterm farang to live a decent lifestyle in Thailand. Without local discounts, without extended family connections or local influence, without 30 baht medical scheme or cheap loans, etc.

Farangs don't get loans. I paid for my new Honda, and my old pickup truck, out of the ATM.

[In the Rai!]

Would it help if we distinguish between newly arrived farang TEFLers, regardless of their documents and quals, and the teachers who have been in LOS for 3 or 4 years? And then, what about the old-timers who think they'll be here forever?

From another angle, maybe the issue is not "how much is a B.Ed., or a BA/BS, or a high school grad, deserve to earn just because they got that much education?" Maybe the issue is what it costs for a newly arrived/midterm/longterm farang to live a decent lifestyle in Thailand. Without local discounts, without extended family connections or local influence, without 30 baht medical scheme or cheap loans, etc.

Farangs don't get loans. I paid for my new Honda, and my old pickup truck, out of the ATM.

That is a very valid point indeed.

It does definately vary place to place but I think the extra $$$ or Bt that we get is to accomodate that.

We can buy a car and we can buy a motor bike, granted we cant own businesses but I think we are talking about the newly arrived teachers who plan on going back to their own countries in the future just wanting to make a buck and travel. People who have been here a while can save enough to buy their own cars and bikes.

I think the real costs are in their units or condos. To buy the things we need to live a normal life, that we are used to. I know the costs are alot higher in Bangkok but are the salaries higher as well, to accomodate them.

In The Rai!

[Ijustwannateach]

The costs are a lot higher, but I wouldn't say the salaries are a *lot* higher for most people.

[In the Rai!]

The costs are a lot higher, but I wouldn't say the salaries are a *lot* higher for most people.

Certainly not for the Thais, but for farangs I think it does. In more rural areas there is no choice so you get paid the norm. In Bangkok there are many schools, so the bigger ones, private ones are all offering that little bit more to get the better teaches at their schools. I wouldnt say that the costs are higher either, I take that back. I feel that because you are in a city with vast opportunity to do anything and everything whenevr you want it. My highlight and major expenses include going to BIG C (yes Big C) and doing my regular farang food shop and very seldom I get to the local pub down the road.

When I was in Bangkok I was out every weekend and sometimes mid week having a beer with friends and having dinner etc. It is not that the costs are that much higher, I just think that people do alot more in Bangkok or the bigger cities because they can, therefore in turn spending more money aswell.

In The Rai!