Are Teachers Underpaid?

[Ijustwannateach]

I think we have crossed wires here. I'm agreeing with you that the costs are higher in Bangkok, of course. But the average salary for a TEFLer in Bangkok is still probably only 30K- out in the country 23-25K, maybe? So the salaries are not that much higher in Bangkok to make up for the additional expenses.

[kenkannif]

Loaded, the first part of your statements, which I chose not to respond to originally, was false in my experience. In last full year of teaching, I was paid 287,500 baht for one full school year, and had to pay about 87,502 baht for visas. And, I was way, way too illegal. My Thai counterparts made from 216,000 to 396,000 baht per year, and they were legal. In other words, they made more than I did.

We cannot compare Thai teachers to farang teachers. The only similarity is that they are both homo sapiens, teaching in Thailand. Nothing else is the same; nothing of significance

Mate to be fair it didn't really cost you that as you had a holiday at the same time.

You could easily (with my assistance) have done it for less than 30K.....more in line actually with 20-25K (15 months of cover).

[kenkannif]

I sees youse already covered it PB....apols!!!

[In the Rai!]

I think we have crossed wires here. I'm agreeing with you that the costs are higher in Bangkok, of course. But the average salary for a TEFLer in Bangkok is still probably only 30K- out in the country 23-25K, maybe? So the salaries are not that much higher in Bangkok to make up for the additional expenses.

IJWT,

I agree with you on the salary differences completely. Your figures are pretty accurate as to what the differences probably are in my opinion. My point is that the costs are not that much more than rural areas, in fact some items are cheaper in BKK. I think that 6 or 7000 bt a month is enough to cover the extra expenses. It is not the expenses that kill these teachers, it is their lifestyles. I have nowhere to go except the local pub for a couple on the weekends or sometimes go out to dinner on the weekends. When I was in BKK I was out almost everynight doing something because you can and it is easy. Everyone in BKK has the mentality "IT's so Cheap" but once you start doing alot of cheap things, it starts to become expensive.

So I put it down to lifestyle choices not salary. When back home, I could not go out everynight and then turn around and complain that it is because I didn't earn enough. I just couldnt go out as much. That is life. Here a lot of TEFLers want to party like they are on holidays and want to have the salaries to suppoprt it.

*** It just doesn't work like that***

This is just my view on it.

In The Rai!

[bradthai]

up.

agree 100%

lifestyle is , i think the major factor. just been speaking to a friend who moved to bangers to get more money. 20k a month more than up here in the sticks. surprise surprise. he's no better off. i then have to listen to his "bar girl" exploits, his sizzler adventure, and nana travel stories.

lifestyle. 35k up here in the sticks, i am the king.

[Thaiboxer]

Lifestyle plays a BIG part of course. Some people can earn 100K/month and still be broke! However, what I found out is that living upcountry is not that much cheaper than living in Bangkok but where folks save money up there is with the fact that there is very little to spend money on. No big malls, theme parks, etc etc. Bangkok has lots of little Western luxuries (malls, Western food to name a couple) that can be costly if you're not careful. Street food can actually be more expensive in some other provinces by 5 baht or so per order.

[Unknown]

To come back to the original question, teachers are generally underpaid in most countries and especially in developping countries.

Education is not the priority as it should be.

Recently in Taiwan, in order to get the best teachers, they increased their salary to the level of the private sector, and it works, you get more knowledgeable teachers.

But as far as Thailand is concerned, the main problem is how do they judge teachers and what do they expect from them?

Not much as far as I can see and hence the pay is not going to change soon...

[bradthai]

how do they judge teachers???

just speaking from my own experience, if you have a go at your job, you are respected/ or rather expected to work harder.

been my experience in 3 government schools. english camps, presentations in english, brochures for the school.

and for what? the same incentive as the indian/ phillipino staff who can't, or wont do the work.

they, admin that is, seem to think that your being asked to do the work ,is reward enough. enough for entrenched thai staff, not for me.

sad thing is it's starting to happen at my new school as well. one person, me, to organise all, i do mean all, extra curicullar activities. when i asked why. you can.late nights, weekend work. this is my experience of how assessment is made in thai schools.

if you say no. still on the same incentive as the rest. also, thai assessment comes down to how thick a wad of paper they can amasss. welcome to the paperless environment. recognition in a human sense does not exist. the feudal system is definitely the go. thus. farang=nothing. nothing to worry about, we will get another one. just a trip to the bus station or airport. blonde. can you teach. you'll do, if you do it.

[stiggy]

Hello

As long as there is an influx of young people ready to get there ticket and start teaching semi legally and there are facilites ready to take advantage of them.

Ie on the promise of a work permit that never comes etc etc,wages will always be low and the real teachers very rarely respected or paid what they are worth.

simply put there will always be some one new to replace you.

Other industrys that rely on westerners are affected the same way tourism/diving/medical sectors for example.

Its controversial to state but maybe the new crackdown on visas etc will mean that those legal will have a better chance of gaining the respect and salary they deserve.Hopefully with the coming shortfall of people able to work it will force schools/employers to assist future employees with this costly process.

Either way I hope my post has offended no one I truly feel that teachers should be vetted and of a high morale standing.I also feel that teachers are generally underpaid.

Besty regards from a poster with a parents perspective.

[johnnyk]

Hello

As long as there is an influx of young people ready to get there ticket and start teaching semi legally and there are facilites ready to take advantage of them.

Ie on the promise of a work permit that never comes etc etc,wages will always be low and the real teachers very rarely respected or paid what they are worth.

simply put there will always be some one new to replace you.

Other industrys that rely on westerners are affected the same way tourism/diving/medical sectors for example.

Its controversial to state but maybe the new crackdown on visas etc will mean that those legal will have a better chance of gaining the respect and salary they deserve.Hopefully with the coming shortfall of people able to work it will force schools/employers to assist future employees with this costly process.

Exactly right.

Thailand is notorious for paying less than other Asian nations for the above reasons.

Perhaps one positive result of the new visa hoohaw will be to lessen the supply of non-teachers whose only virtue is that they are westerners.

If the seemingly-endless falang supply dries up then school admins may finally catch on that offering decent wages AND a Work Permit can be to their benefit rather than being a pain in the arse which many seem to think.

[Loaded]

Its controversial to state but maybe the new crackdown on visas etc will mean that those legal will have a better chance of gaining the respect and salary they deserve.

I think teachers are respected. Much more than the UK. And the salary they deserve should always be 3 or 4 times higher than a local teacher????

Edited October 11, 2006 by Loaded

[johnnyk]

Presonally, I think Thailand underpays all teachers.

But then, little Somchai won't get his job through education but through someone who owes his parents a favour so education is undervalued compared to other cultures.

[Ijustwannateach]

Its controversial to state but maybe the new crackdown on visas etc will mean that those legal will have a better chance of gaining the respect and salary they deserve.

I think teachers are respected. Much more than the UK. And the salary they deserve should always be 3 or 4 times higher than a local teacher????

Um, yes? Is this a trick question?

I think we've gone over several reasons why the salary *is* and in certain cases *should be* higher than that of a local- largely because teaching any subject in English *is not really* the same job as teaching that subject in Thai. It is more specialised here by reason of its rarity, and for that reason alone market forces will make the salary higher.

Can I play Devil's Advocate to your Devil's Advocate? Why would anyone in their right mind up stakes and *PERMANENTLY* relocate (during some of their most productive working years) to another country, especially one with a completely unrelated language and culture, starting entirely anew with no local friends or family, *UNLESS* there was some sort of eventual economic incentive relative to the local market? (and please let's not go to the drunken sexpat whinges). That's certainly why a lot of people choose to immigrate to all kinds of countries. Why should it be any different here? You're not going to attract educated workers (assuming that teachers *are* educated workers) by paying them less relative to the local market than they'd make back home. Please note that by immigration I don't mean spend 2-3 years hanging out, but really settling down here and making a go of things.

I mean, you have a local market for teachers which barely keeps people in the staffroom but has been good enough for many places because you weren't really hiring teachers- a lot of the time you were hiring people who wanted to stay a few years and then move on to other adventures (these people may in fact have been good teachers a lot of the time, I'm not denying that). If you want people with some experience to stay for keeps, though, you have to offer more than that. So yes, the going rate is actually insufficient to do that- else you wouldn't have so much turnover.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

The interrogative presented as the indicative, by putting question mark(s) at the end:

"And the salary they deserve should always be 3 or 4 times higher than a local teacher????"

Is there an emoticon for "sigh...as he mounts his soapbox"?

Loaded, thanks for starting this great discussion. You make a good devil's advocate, and you always wave a red flag and turn me into a raging bull when you say "4 times as much." Have you downgraded your hyperbole now to merely "3 or 4 times higher"? No, because technically three times higher means four times as much. Sigh.

You cannot compare durian to longan, eggs to watermelon, bison to alogarithms. Let's see, a Thai teacher who speaks broken English, with a B.Ed. from a Thai rajaversity and at best an M.Ed. in TETOL (Teaching English in Thai as an Other Language), measured against whom? A fully certified, native speaking professional educator from the west, with a B.Ed. and an M.Ed. from the West? She's worth $53,000 per year, plus generous Western pension, plus full medical care at Western standards. Period, end of debate.

I know a native speaking science teacher in BKK with a BS but no B.Ed., lucky to be making 53,000 baht a month full salary, lousy medical coverage, no real pension, no tenure. My daughter is better qualified, but she's not rushing over to replace the teacher in BKK at less than 220,000 baht per month. She wouldn't do it for 300K. It doesn't matter if the B.Ed./M.Ed. Thai can teach science in Thailish at 17K or 21K or 31K. Absolutely irrelevant.

Loaded, thanks for the conversation starters. Neither Steven nor I mean to dominate this discussion.

Signed,

Charging Bull

[Loaded]

The interrogative presented as the indicative, by putting question mark(s) at the end:

"And the salary they deserve should always be 3 or 4 times higher than a local teacher????"

Is there an emoticon for "sigh...as he mounts his soapbox"?

Loaded, thanks for the conversation starters. Neither Steven nor I mean to dominate this discussion.

Signed,

Charging Bull

PB, you and Steven dominate this discussion because you've both got plenty of good relevant things to say.

PB, who's soapbox?

[mijan24]

The interrogative presented as the indicative, by putting question mark(s) at the end:

PB, who's soapbox?

I hope PB meant to say matchbox?????

Edited October 12, 2006 by mijan24

[Dakhar]

PB,

No doubt you are correct.... But how can a school pay a qualified Eng. teacher something it does not have? The economy itself canot afford to support that type of pay. Even if it could the demand is not there to support that type of pay. Sure, Thais would like to learn some English, I would like to learn to play the guitar.... But I ain't going to pay someone 5K an hour to teach me. I'd rather go without, because I'd rather eat.

[Ijustwannateach]

I thought we'd covered the myth of "poor" schools before on this thread, but maybe it was on some other thread. Ok, let's try it again. As an example:

A "poor" suburban matthayom charges each student 1000B a month for English classes (one class a week) with PTA approval. This covers M4-M6, in which there are 15 classes with about 40 students per class. That makes a total of 600 students, or 600,000B a month. The single foreign teacher is told that because the school is "poor," he will be getting the princely sum of 30,000 a month, with no work permit (so he will have to do visa runs at his own expense) for teaching each group one time a week. That means the net profit for the program is 570,000B a month. There are no paperwork fees because there is no visa. There is no overhead because the school is already a going concern and a government institution. Who knows where the 570,000B a month goes? Not to the foreign teacher.

I know this is a realistic situation because *I* was the foreign teacher offered this plum situation at one time.

Poor, poor, school.

"Steven"

[Dakhar]

Impressive figures IJWTT,

And if this is the case (I do not doubt your post, just the overhead costs, you have no idea what they really are --- and neither do i)

Any how, as I was saying, if that is the case, then you see schools paying the "going market" price, and I will pick up the banner and march by your side.... if that is the case.

Again, I invite whomever, to come and start a school at our facility. It is getting closer to completion.

[Ijustwannateach]

Since the kids have already paid school fees and there is some nominal government budget supplied, and the classes are taught as academic classes during school time, all overhead in the form of electricity, water, etc. is paid for by tax & fees. There are no books and no copies. The teacher pays for his own lunch, and the only consumable provided is low quality pressed chalk (also part of the school's regular overhead). Administration is handled by the school's foreign languages department (who are already paid a salary). So, no overhead.

"Steven"

[Loaded]

If the school does make money, how is that connected to teachers' salaries?

Microsoft makes a lot of profit, this doesn't mean its employees are underpaid.

Quite often schools want native-speaker teacher programmes because they do bring in money and this helps to supplement the other departments within the school. Do you have any idea how much money is spent on pink card, glue and coloured pens for activities such as 'sports' day?

[Ijustwannateach]

Somehow I imagine these activities were funded before the advent of English teaching in Thailand- for example, by *school fees*. And 570,000Bx10months a year=5,700,000B in one year. How much is a glue stick, again? This was at a school, incidentally, with ONE night light for sports and ping-pong tables made of broken crates, no nets in the basketball hoops, cats and dogs living in the building- no evidence at all of this money being spent on the school or on students. A lot of the Thai teachers (who were making much less than I on paper) drove really nice cars, though. What seems most likely?

Loaded, my argument was in reply to Dakhar's bringing out the old "poor school" chestnut, which I hope I've discredited, not to prove the school was underpaying teachers (though see below). The schools aren't that poor, usually- it's the behavior of the administrations which could probably be described, even charitably, as poor- if not fraudulent, dastardly, scurrilous, or indecent.

Was I underpaid? I didn't stay. They tried to get backpackers from KSR to come teach for even less, and each one stayed about 2-5 days. As far as I'm aware, even today they can't keep teachers. One might say that by definition they're underpaying people. Microsoft seems to be able to keep most of its employees a little longer.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

PB, who's soapbox?

I'm not a soapbox. Who is?

[Loaded]

PB, who's soapbox?

I'm not a soapbox. Who is?

You said you were mounting your soapbox PB, just wondered if that's the name of your new partner???? - schoolboy humour, sorry.

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, *that* was a thread-stopper....