Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao murder trial

[thailandchilli]

OK so the compelling evidence has been presented already at a hearing, I presume that the defence was present but this is not available to the public? This evidence was not contested by the defence? So the judge will make a verdict based on this evidence and we will never know what this evidence is?

The judge has to present a report detailing the reasons for his decision when passing the verdict, that, presumably, includes what evidence was taken into account.

To whom does he have to present the report?...the public?

Yes via the public relations department first, after all they want as much damage limitation as possible?

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 20h20 hours ago

Samui court judges & lawyers discussed today Koh Tao case judgement will be sent to director general region 8 for checking prior to release

Edited September 26, 2015 by thailandchilli

[aslimversgwm]

So, if we recapitulate, what made this case so water tight?

> the confession of the B2 : it was made under very very shady circumstances with a totally non qualified translator (a roti vendor for god's sake) and they had to sign the document in Thai which they can't read (a quite common thing in here by the way : never ever sign something you don't fully understand don't even take the word of your lawyer for it). Multiple reports of threats and torture to the Burmese community and the testimony of the defendants (more to come), the absence of any legal representation and recording of the interview conducted in a "safe house" and the fact that the summoned police refused to meet the Thai human rights investigator make this confession unacceptable. Confession : doubts.

> the reenactment : I won't go into details but the fact that the confession and the reenactment were made before the B2 had access to any legal representation make it not valid either. Plus the B2 were directed by the RTP and their translator as clearly shown by the video, and that is against the rule of this process. I guess they had no choice though, the B2 had no clue what really happened there and what they were supposed to say... Reenactment : doubts

> the RTP scenario : in normal circumstances, it is highly difficult to believe that the B2 could have conducted this attack against two conscious young persons, David being also a lot taller than them. They explained it by the element of surprise, but the fact that is has been proven that the victims held the hoe for enough time to have their DNA on it contradicts this. When we add the fact that it is also doubtful that David was murdered with the hoe (not a trace of his blood on it and wounds not consistent with the weapon), the scenario just doesn't fit. Scenario : doubts

> the most important evidence is the DNA of the B2 that matched the semen. First of all, the original DNA is not available for retest, it has been used up apparently, how convenient... Second of all the British report apparently shows that Hannah may not have been raped, so there is a chance (I don't say it is so, but there is a chance) that this semen that isn't available for tests has never existed in the first place. The chain of custody isn't available to the defense and the tests have all be done in the control of the RTP and never in the independent forensic lab of Pornthip in Bangkok, so their reliability is further questioned. The defense wanted to use a very recognized expert in Forensic to go through the documents, but the documents have never been provided, they have been requested for months. DNA match : doubts

May I remind that the B2 are facing the death penalty, there is no place for un professionalism, for doubts, for approximation in a capital case, and that is all we have seen so far. Two innocent persons died already, we don't need two more.

I truly want those responsible for the despicable, un humane act to get what they deserve, but I also don't want someone to pay for something they haven't done.

The Burmese are people too (some probably just don't see it that way though), with families that are also going through a terrible time, and they have spent a year in a Thai jail already for something they may have not done.

Very well summarised and well presented. Thank you.

[Trisha61]

I've said this before and will say it again: detectives should reenact the scenario which brought forth the 'Running Man' videos. I could set up a more realistic re-creation than any Thai gov't person investigator or cop. I would film it at the same location, using the same camera, and (as much as possible) same lighting. I would have ALL 'persons of interest' involved, not just B2, but also the original prime suspects. It's impossible for RTP to re-create that scenario for several reasons:

>>> they're sworn to protect the Headman's people from any further scrutiny

>>> they are incapable of doing things scientifically/objectively. Because they are Thai, they are genetically programmed to do everything subjectively with constant consideration of who everyone represents (status/money/connections).

>>> the Headman wouldn't allow his dear son to be looked at again in this case.

>>> Mon wouldn't comply.

It's indicative of nearly all RTP has done and not done in the past year. Despicable.

I still can't get my head around this ...I can't believe there was not any "DNA" at all ...It doesn't make any sense ...

I live here for more than 30 years and yes, I do have personal (numerous) experiences with RTP "modus operandi" in general, as well as with an individual officers in various situations / scenarios. Same goes for the court dealings.

I have (unfortunately) almost zero confidence in a Police work (any sort of INVESTIGATION) but somehow, the JUSTICE have been always served to me by the courts. It took always an ages and the procedure is more than just bizarre, messy, painstaking, unnecessarily complicated from one hand and very "simplified" from the other but the judges always managed to arrive at the rightful, fair conclusion without any sort of bribes or other influence apart from that what has been presented during the hearings.

I have never understood or comprehend how on earth can RTP solve up any case whatsoever. There's no system, no any trace of any discipline, rank of priorities, anything what may - even remotely, resemble some sort of investigative effort or principle. They have no proper training, they don't know what is the process of investigation, evidence gathering and evaluation, preservation, documentation, etc., There don't seem to be any rules, proper tactics and techniques, necessary patient and meticulous work ... only tons of completely useless forms to be filled out and archived.

I convinced myself that in Thailand the crimes are solved thanks to the "Thai gossip" ... that it is not much else but waiting for some motorbike taxi, or pissed of girlfriend, or jealous neighbor start talking to others. As they are always everywhere, see and hear everything and have a plenty of time and passion for observing and yapping ...

I have seen a "stubborn" officers who really wanted to work out all details to see "what is the matter" but their effort get, somehow, drawn down by the others and by the "system" itself

anyways,THERE MUST HAVE BEEN some DNA FINDINGS there ...!!!In the early stages ...Why would they (the police) need to ponder upon their insufficient lab technology to determine the race for example? Why would they announce, this DNA belonging to the Asian men, instead of oh-so-convenient foreigners?Why would they clear and allow to leave those "British friends"?It was on the very beginning - there was not yet any "influence from above" or media (significant) pressure or anything ...?Why wouldn't they simply announced there wasn't any useful DNA found?Why would they just make this all up when there was no any strong need to cover anything yet?

I am sure there must have been some ... but then, where did they really get it from and what the heck they have done to it?

This whole thing just doesn't make one bit of sense to me ...

Thank you for posting your personal experiences with the Thai Legal system. As Myself and no doubt many others on this forum are not from Thailand, it is difficult to comprehend how in the 21st Centuary these practices continue to be tolerated. It sheds some light on what the reality of daily life is for some.

[RWA]

"Because they are Thai, they are genetically programmed to do everything subjectively"

"As if there was any doubt of the racist element running through his discussion"

********************

There is no any "racist element" in the above "assessment" !!!

It is a "statement of fact" that goes with Thai custom, culture, character.

Same as "Land of smile", etc.,

Or when you just state that the African people are black.

Who can see a "racist element" in such a statement, has either zero knowledge / understanding of Thai people mentality in general,

or a very single minded, negative way of perception and evaluation.

Or is just a plain ignorant or liar.

[BritTim]

Those who question the fairness of using the UK postmortem report to point out typical injuries associated with rape were missing, should note that Ms Pornthip stated the same thing during her testimony. Unfortunately, I cannot find an English language link for this. However, those who can read German should look for the article on the trial in der Farang, dated September 12, and read their point 8. In general, that article was the best report on Ms Pornthip's testimony.

[Trisha61]

Are you aware of Brazil's approval of "lynching"?

75% of the public condone the practice.

I recently returned from a BASE trip there.....and even the girls and lads I was with are aware of this atrocity and the subsequent ineptitude.

I said "tell your friends and family not to come here".

I've also told all of my Aus family and friends.

I'm tempted to hand out flyers down Khao San Road asking travelers to boycott Death Island.

Lynching...you catching my drift?

I must go to Chidlom Monday and plan to drop in to RTP Headquarters.

I have the greatest respect for the positive contributors on this thread but now wish to act proactively myself and within the bounds of the law.....whatever the <deleted> that is.

I totally agree, I have lived here for six years already, so I know quite a few places that deserve to be seen far more than the common tourist spots.

So I do my part in preventing my friends and family money to go anywhere near the pockets of the people that have any part in this atrocious event.

Of all the people I know who came here last year, not one have spent a minute near Koh Tao / KPN / Koh Samui, too risky with beastly murderers on the loose with impunity.

I am thinking also about doing more to make people aware.

I feel sorry for the people that have businesses over there who have nothing to do with it, but objectively, I don't want it to happen again (and frankly it could) and I want the people who have something to do with it (even very remotely by covering anything) to suffer financially, that is what matters the most to this kind of people.

The following would appear to be very applicable to this sad state of affairs:

The Nothing People

They do not lie;

they just neglect to tell the truth.

They do not take;

they simply cannot bring themselves to give.

They do not steal;

they scavenge.

They will not rock the boat;

but did you ever see them pull an oar!

They will not pull you down;

they'll simply let you pull them up and let that pull you down.

They do not hurt you;

they merely will not help you.

They do not hate you;

they merely cannot love you.

They do not burn you;

They just fiddle while you burn.

They are the nothing people:

the sins-of-omission people

the neither-good-nor-bad

and-therefore-worse.

Because the good, at least keep busy trying

and the bad try just as hard.

Both have that character

that comes from caring, action and conviction.

So give me every time

an honest sinner, or even a saint.

[balo]

Mods!!!!!

What kind of a Forensic Expert are you if you can't even determine if someone had been raped or not? I would think this is one of the first things they would learn and what they would teach you in Forensics Training

Come on for Pete sake, you have a nameless person here slandering a leading coroner and also slandering experts in their field, with proven backgrounds.

This is the sort of shit that is getting posters backs up and it's gone mine up, why are you allowing Thai Visa to be a conduit of such comments, to be honest, I've got a good mind to attempt to contact the people GB is accusing of being nobodies, purely because they're part of the defence team!! These are professional Les in their fields, subject matter experts, and your are allowing their names to be sullied by a troll and antognistic poster who is not an expert.

Shame on you Thai visa, shame on you for allowing such comments to be printed here that are clearly attempts to sully a professional !!!

I completely agree with you and all the previous comments, it is really hard not to react to the long post made by GB and this post is clearly written in a way to make people react strongly, I have hesitated to respond point by point to all the mistakes, lies and even slanders contained in this very long post, but I just chose to ignore it.

I really think that the intention of GB and AleG is obvious again : trying to make us people react and cross the line so that this thread is once more closed.

I my opinion they are breaking the rules the mods reminded when they reopened the thread, but so far people have been more mature and don't take their baits, as tempting as it is.

Let's try keeping it that way...

We really want to keep the thread open and that poster knew what type of reaction he was going to get that's why he done it.

If you do not agree , then ignore, we are all entitled to have an opinion , even if you strongly disagree with it. As long as it's not breaking the forum rules.

[Trisha61]

"Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-o-cha has said "nobody would dare" go after the wrong suspects because the case was so high-profile."

There is not one logical sentence that guy has spoken whenever he opened his mouth in regards to the case. The worst ever was his babble about sexy girls wearing sexy dresses and bikinis (Hannah was properly dressed and wearing a skirt) being at fault themselves if they get raped and killed. I believe that quote should have driven more attention and condemnation worldwide, thus it should be repeated whenever possible to show what kind of person is ruling this country with his iron fist...

Absolutely agree MockingJay............Repeating now.

[thailandchilli]

Those who question the fairness of using the UK postmortem report to point out typical injuries associated with rape were missing, should note that Ms Pornthip stated the same thing during her testimony. Unfortunately, I cannot find an English language link for this. However, those who can read German should look for the article on the trial in der Farang, dated September 12, and read their point 8. In general, that article was the best report on Ms Pornthip's testimony.

Yes that's pretty significant what Dr Pornthip is stating there about the lack of physical evidence of rape and it lines well with the UK autopsy report.

Edited September 26, 2015 by thailandchilli

[StealthEnergiser]

[StealthEnergiser]

[khunPer]

»Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-o-cha has said "nobody would dare" go after the wrong suspects because the case was so high-profile.«

(Source, the news article from The Nation, quoted by the TV News Team)

I think the major problem is that the prime minister, for some-or-other reason, has commented on the case at a very early stage in the investigation – hard odds to fight against for the defense team...

[thailandchilli]

From Der Farrang

A photo of Andy and Jane Taupin the internationally acclaimed forensics expert both taking some time out from court sessions on a beach in Samui

Jane Taupin is an internationally recognised forensic science expert in her field. She is currently a self-employed national and international forensic consultant and trainer.
Jane has been an operational forensic scientist for over 25 years in both Australia and England. She has published many works, including journal articles, books, bulletins and conference papers.
She has been an expert witness in over 140 trials, including more than 40 murder trials. She has also been the lead biologist at numerous crimes scenes in Australia and England.
She is also considered one of the leaders in the world of clothing damage analysis. She has worked as the main biologist in multi-disciplinary teams in large investigations including ‘cold case’ homicides and has reported DNA profiling since 1999. http://www.expertsdirect.com.au/expert-profile/?id=4100

Edited September 26, 2015 by thailandchilli

[Aj Mick]

I think many of us are waiting for this evidence to be presented. Does anyone know if or when it will be?

The prosecution evidence? I already has been presented, weeks ago during the hearings. The thing is that, unlike the defense, they chose not run a parallel public relations campaign to promote their work.

Now the judge agreed for one extra day for the prosecution and the defense, so they may add something more during their allotted time.

What has been presented has been largely discredited. The key evidence that they say they had, the DNA , has been "used up", mislaid or otherwise no longer available, if it ever existed in the first place.

C'mon AleG. Tell us who you are trying to curry favour with? Tell us who did the crime? Keeping up this obfuscating charade is making you look less than sincere, trustworthy and credible.

Oh I see now, from the post above. You don't want to fall foul of the law by appearing critical of the RTP…..

Edited September 26, 2015 by Aj Mick

[Trisha61]

"Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-o-cha has said "nobody would dare" go after the wrong suspects because the case was so high-profile."

There is not one logical sentence that guy has spoken whenever he opened his mouth in regards to the case. The worst ever was his babble about sexy girls wearing sexy dresses and bikinis (Hannah was properly dressed and wearing a skirt) being at fault themselves if they get raped and killed. I believe that quote should have driven more attention and condemnation worldwide, thus it should be repeated whenever possible to show what kind of person is ruling this country with his iron fist...

It appears a lot more money, time and effort is being put into finding the Erewan bombers, than ever was applied to the Koh Tao murders. Here's an example : -

"Meanwhile, national police chief Pol General Somyot Poompanmuang has instructed his adviser on forensic science, Police General Jarumporn Suramanee, to work with the Metropolitan Police for digital 'superimposition' of images to determine whether Karadag is the bomber, whose image was caught on security cameras.

Somyot said an ally country and a company with the necessary equipment had offered to help with the digital superimposition, but he declined to identify them."

Looking at both atrocities, almost a year apart I am drawn to the conclusion that from the very early days an agenda was created to divert the public's attention away from the real KT murderers, because they are Thai and/or police, or both. I include the police directly in this scenario because there is one individual on KT who has a fascination/fetish for blonde hair, and who according to his own comment on Facebook is "now beginning to love himself again". I'm left wondering what happened to stop loving himself, because I thought it was a pre-requisite of being a Thai policeman that one should always love oneself, (and more importantly defend/protect one's colleagues, no matter what it involves).

Is there any chance of such high grade technological 'superimposition' technology ever being applied to the CCTV images of the 'running man'? Slim to non is my guess.

Apparently they did carry out some form of this process, however it was obviously outdated technology they used seeing as their asking for help on the Bangkok incident.

On the 23rd Sept 2014 this was reported:

Police have used superimposition, a specialised forensic medical technique, to compare an image of a man captured by a surveillance camera with the pictures of suspects and expect to find the murderers of two British tourists on Ko Tao in a few days. The superimposition technique was applied to two of three suspects who allegedly molested Hannah Witheridge, one of the murdered tourists,on Sept 15, the night of the murder. A tourist had photographed them before the killings. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Police-use-superimposition-technique-to-identify-k-30243922.html

The following day the 24th this was reported:

Police have confirmed that Montriwat is the man appeared in the CCTV video footage near the scene and they still did not rule out a possible connection. http://www.chiangraitimes.com/police-release-suspects-in-murder-of-two-brits-in-koh-tao.html

Who knows?

Looks like he is carrying an object similar in size to an iphone.

[Fat Haggis]

From Der Farrang

A photo of Andy and Jane Taupin the internationally acclaimed forensics expert both taking some time of from court sessions on a beach in Samui

Jane Taupin is an internationally recognised forensic science expert in her field. She is currently a self-employed national and international forensic consultant and trainer.

Jane has been an operational forensic scientist for over 25 years in both Australia and England. She has published many works, including journal articles, books, bulletins and conference papers.

She has been an expert witness in over 140 trials, including more than 40 murder trials. She has also been the lead biologist at numerous crimes scenes in Australia and England.

She is also considered one of the leaders in the world of clothing damage analysis. She has worked as the main biologist in multi-disciplinary teams in large investigations including cold case homicides and has reported DNA profiling since 1999. http://www.expertsdirect.com.au/expert-profile/?id=4100

Go for it............

I feel a turning point with this case................

I sincerely hope this will indeed happen, despite her credentials being questioned by Internet nobodies!!

[GOLDBUGGY]

At an early trial date Dr. Pornthip said they had the Chain of Custody of the Prosecution's DNA, so I am wondering which documents are the Defense asking for now before they put their Star Witness on the Stand.

"She said pools of blood found on the sand on Sairee beach in Koh Tao last September had not been gathered for DNA testing, nor had any of Ms Witheridge’s clothing which was still on her body at the time of her death. Insufficient photographs had been taken of the scene to be useful to a forensic examination, and the chain of custody of the DNA evidence was incomplete, she said.“The documents have been edited. The dates are not right,” Dr Pornthip, who has decades of experience in forensic science, told the three sitting judges."

I just can't see how she can say the "chain of custody of the DNA evidence was incomplete" if she did not have them to look at and even know this. So I don't see how or why everyone is claiming they don't have them now when she testified in court already saying they do.

http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/dna_found_on_murder_weapon_does_not_match_with_two_men_on_trial_for_killing_hannah_witheridge_1_4228734

[StealthEnergiser]

At an early trial date Dr. Pornthip said they had the Chain of Custody of the Prosecution's DNA, so I am wondering which documents are the Defense asking for now before they put their Star Witness on the Stand.

"She said pools of blood found on the sand on Sairee beach in Koh Tao last September had not been gathered for DNA testing, nor had any of Ms Witheridge’s clothing which was still on her body at the time of her death. Insufficient photographs had been taken of the scene to be useful to a forensic examination, and the chain of custody of the DNA evidence was incomplete, she said.“The documents have been edited. The dates are not right,” Dr Pornthip, who has decades of experience in forensic science, told the three sitting judges."

I just can't see how she can say the "chain of custody of the DNA evidence was incomplete" if she did not have them to look at and even know this. So I don't see how or why everyone is claiming they don't have them now when she testified in court already saying they do.

http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/dna_found_on_murder_weapon_does_not_match_with_two_men_on_trial_for_killing_hannah_witheridge_1_4228734

BritTim, on 25 Sept 2015 - 19:34, said:

partington, on 25 Sept 2015 - 19:00, said:

partington, on 25 Sept 2015 - 19:00, said:

It is impossible to tell what the current position about the status of the DNA evidence actually is from newspaper reports of statements by "spokesmen" who do not know anything about what DNA evidence is, or how it is gathered , or how it is interpreted, made to reporters who are even more ignorant, and who are usually translating very badly and inaccurately into English.

I would say objectively at present there is no way of telling what DNA evidence there is, how it has been presented in the case, and what the future status of any presentation is going to be. I do not trust social media accounts, and I do not trust newspapers except in as far as they are directly reporting what has been said in court, not at second hand, but because the reporter has been present in court, and understands the language.

I think I believe at the very minimum that the defence has engaged one of the best known forensic DNA experts in the world, Jane Taupin, and that she has not testified, although she is ready to. I cannot believe that this has been made up, as this person is too well known to be the subject of false rumours.

The explanation given for her lack of testimony by Andy Hall is that the report on which the DNA evidence was based has not been made available, so she cannot give testimony on it. This also seems unlikely to have been made up, as it would be too easy to find out and report that it isn't true. In addition I remember reading that when the police forensic witness was on the stand giving testimony it was reported that she said the police refuse to make the DNA report available, citing a Thai law that prevents private information on individuals being circulated (!). This may well be false reporting however.

Now the verifiable fact that the defence have a world expert on DNA ready to testify and she has not been able to seems to require a LOT of explanation. If the police will not make available the report on which their entire case is based, that tells you something fairly significant. I have always thought that, even if the Thai police have fabricated every other item of evidence out of an arrogant and stupid desire to make their case better, then if this DNA evidence is true, they are probably on a safe and justified conviction.

It now seems to me more and more likely that this DNA evidence either doesn't exist at all, or is so compromised and inadequate that it doesn't even prove identity. What possible reason could there be to hide the only evidence directly linking the accused to the crime?

I think the very fact that lawyers, experts like Jane Taupin and others are willing to assist pro bono in this case shows the very real concern of those able to judge the evidence (or rather lack thereof). It has often struck me that the most highly skilled experts in their fields are often those most willing to offer their expertise free of charge in a good cause. For all that this case has shown much of the worst of human nature, it is wonderful to see that good human beings will put themselves out to prevent injustice to two poor migrant workers.

[thailandchilli]

At an early trial date Dr. Pornthip said they had the Chain of Custody of the Prosecution's DNA, so I am wondering which documents are the Defense asking for now before they put their Star Witness on the Stand.

"She said pools of blood found on the sand on Sairee beach in Koh Tao last September had not been gathered for DNA testing, nor had any of Ms Witheridge’s clothing which was still on her body at the time of her death. Insufficient photographs had been taken of the scene to be useful to a forensic examination, and the chain of custody of the DNA evidence was incomplete, she said.“The documents have been edited. The dates are not right,” Dr Pornthip, who has decades of experience in forensic science, told the three sitting judges."

I just can't see how she can say the "chain of custody of the DNA evidence was incomplete" if she did not have them to look at and even know this. So I don't see how or why everyone is claiming they don't have them now when she testified in court already saying they do.

http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/dna_found_on_murder_weapon_does_not_match_with_two_men_on_trial_for_killing_hannah_witheridge_1_4228734

Just about says it all if you read it.

If your given an exam paper and it has 10 pages missing you would say the same thing

Edited September 26, 2015 by thailandchilli

[RWA]

"She said pools of blood found on the sand on Sairee beach in Koh Tao last September had not been gathered for DNA testing, nor had any of Ms Witheridge’s clothing which was still on her body at the time of her death. Insufficient photographs had been taken of the scene to be useful to a forensic examination, and the chain of custody of the DNA evidence was incomplete, she said.“The documents have been edited. The dates are not right,” Dr Pornthip, who has decades of experience in forensic science, told the three sitting judges."

http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/dna_found_on_murder_weapon_does_not_match_with_two_men_on_trial_for_killing_hannah_witheridge_1_4228734

*** /// talking about the DNA samples to identify 2 victims and 2 accused, no more no less \\\ ***

[jcsmith]

@Aleg: If that's their case, then they don't have a case. Their case relies on a forced and retracted confession, DNA evidence that can not be substantiated beyond, "trust us it's true", and the fact that people who worked near the beach were drinking at the beach that night. Half of the things they fed to the public have turned out to be completely unsubstantiated and they have denied the defense access to other things for testing because they likely destroyed it (if it existed) to cover the trail from the real perpetrators of this crime. The fact that you continue to try to argue their case despite this overwhelming evidence of either corruption, incompetence or both despite the fact that two young men stand to be executed if they are found guilty is abbhorent.

I don't know if these kids were involved in the crime or not. But I do know there is nothing remotely close to proving they were involved beyond a reaonable doubt. From the evidence that is out there, I'd guess it is far more likely that they are scapegoats than that they were involved in any way.

Edited September 26, 2015 by jcsmith

[Fat Haggis]

There are certain posters don't understand the parts about "incomplete " or "edited" it's a bit like say for example falsifying the entries in your dive log book to make them appear different or that the dive actually took place. Or even ommiting key parts of it to make it look like you have participated in a dive to get your numbers up, when you haven't done the dive itself.

Happens a lot with skydivers to make it appear they're "current" so they don't have to do "check out jumps" as 99% of the time they know nobody bothers checking if the ghost jumps ever took place!!

There are serious discrepancies that the defence have highlighted and want explanations for, what's wrong with that? Isn't that normal?

Again a bit like making an insurance claim and you falsify parts of the claim, and the investigators want proof before handing over large sums of money?

Any one who takes things at face value through word of mouth, without having a paper trail to back it up deserves to be ripped to shreds when things are not what they seem!!

[MockingJay]

Thailand, hub of deception, corruption, confusion, greed and make believe...

[stephenterry]

"Because they are Thai, they are genetically programmed to do everything subjectively"

"As if there was any doubt of the racist element running through his discussion"

********************

There is no any "racist element" in the above "assessment" !!!

It is a "statement of fact" that goes with Thai custom, culture, character.

Same as "Land of smile", etc.,

Or when you just state that the African people are black.

Who can see a "racist element" in such a statement, has either zero knowledge / understanding of Thai people mentality in general,

or a very single minded, negative way of perception and evaluation.

Or is just a plain ignorant or liar.

I don't completely agree. From an early age children are subjected to what westerners regard as indoctrination into Thai culture. This continues through schooling. Authorities are never questioned. National anthem is played at 8 a.m. and at times daily. Thais are rarely proactive. Non Thais are regarded as aliens. Positive discrimination is country wide. It is a racist society. I repeat, it is a racist society.

[stephenterry]

That's why they don't care about the b2

[RWA]

"Because they are Thai, they are genetically programmed to do everything subjectively"

"As if there was any doubt of the racist element running through his discussion"

********************

There is no any "racist element" in the above "assessment" !!!

It is a "statement of fact" that goes with Thai custom, culture, character.

Same as "Land of smile", etc.,

Or when you just state that the African people are black.

Who can see a "racist element" in such a statement, has either zero knowledge / understanding of Thai people mentality in general,

or a very single minded, negative way of perception and evaluation.

Or is just a plain ignorant or liar.

I don't completely agree. From an early age children are subjected to what westerners regard as indoctrination into Thai culture. This continues through schooling. Authorities are never questioned. National anthem is played at 8 a.m. and at times daily. Thais are rarely proactive. Non Thais are regarded as aliens. Positive discrimination is country wide. It is a racist society. I repeat, it is a racist society.

correct Stephen

we hardly can be called racist when living here (often with Thai partner), having a kids, supporting the local family elders (or other little relatives of those relatives), speaking the language, respecting the customs, adjusting our own (western) living style, paying taxes and contributing to the society in some way, ect., ... but yet, we are always just a farangs to them, discriminated in numerous ways.

Yes, we do live here in a racist and nationalist's society / country, no doubt about that!

My point was

that when the poster here said: "Thais are genetically programmed to do everything subjectively",

he was only stating a true, obvious fact,

for which he cannot be denounced as being a racist

[somo]

I think many of us are waiting for this evidence to be presented. Does anyone know if or when it will be?

The prosecution evidence? I already has been presented, weeks ago during the hearings. The thing is that, unlike the defense, they chose not run a parallel public relations campaign to promote their work.

Now the judge agreed for one extra day for the prosecution and the defense, so they may add something more during their allotted time.

What prosecution evidence? Please summarize for us all as I have yet to hear any. Everything has been lost or used up is that not so? Even photographs are not available because the budget for the case was so small they were deemed too expensive!! We are only left with some disputed confessions but absolutely no evidence other than some finger pointing.

I am open minded on this and have no axe to grind so if I have got the wrong impression please enlighten me.

[stephenterry]

Which explains why the rtp have acted to protect Thais. They probably are furious with the defence for not supporting them. No one dare question a Thai authority. It's ingrained in Thai society.

[GOLDBUGGY]

At an early trial date Dr. Pornthip said they had the Chain of Custody of the Prosecution's DNA, so I am wondering which documents are the Defense asking for now before they put their Star Witness on the Stand.

"She said pools of blood found on the sand on Sairee beach in Koh Tao last September had not been gathered for DNA testing, nor had any of Ms Witheridge’s clothing which was still on her body at the time of her death. Insufficient photographs had been taken of the scene to be useful to a forensic examination, and the chain of custody of the DNA evidence was incomplete, she said.“The documents have been edited. The dates are not right,” Dr Pornthip, who has decades of experience in forensic science, told the three sitting judges."

I just can't see how she can say the "chain of custody of the DNA evidence was incomplete" if she did not have them to look at and even know this. So I don't see how or why everyone is claiming they don't have them now when she testified in court already saying they do.

http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/dna_found_on_murder_weapon_does_not_match_with_two_men_on_trial_for_killing_hannah_witheridge_1_4228734

Just about says it all if you read it.

If your given an exam paper and it has 10 pages missing you would say the same thing

Sorry but I did not read anywhere where Dr. Pornthip said any of these documents were missing. Did you? She just said they were incomplete, and gave examples of this incompleteness by the documents being edited and the dates not right.

If you want to read into this they are missing, as in lost or never done, then this is just an assumption. Which brings me back to my question as to what are the Defense Team asking for and waiting for these past 2 weeks? For the Prosecution edit more documents, or invent some, as I figure they must have everything the Prosecution has already.

[thailandchilli]

At an early trial date Dr. Pornthip said they had the Chain of Custody of the Prosecution's DNA, so I am wondering which documents are the Defense asking for now before they put their Star Witness on the Stand.

"She said pools of blood found on the sand on Sairee beach in Koh Tao last September had not been gathered for DNA testing, nor had any of Ms Witheridge’s clothing which was still on her body at the time of her death. Insufficient photographs had been taken of the scene to be useful to a forensic examination, and the chain of custody of the DNA evidence was incomplete, she said.“The documents have been edited. The dates are not right,” Dr Pornthip, who has decades of experience in forensic science, told the three sitting judges."

I just can't see how she can say the "chain of custody of the DNA evidence was incomplete" if she did not have them to look at and even know this. So I don't see how or why everyone is claiming they don't have them now when she testified in court already saying they do.

http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/dna_found_on_murder_weapon_does_not_match_with_two_men_on_trial_for_killing_hannah_witheridge_1_4228734

Just about says it all if you read it.

If your given an exam paper and it has 10 pages missing you would say the same thing

Sorry but I did not read anywhere where Dr. Pornthip said any of these documents were missing. Did you? She just said they were incomplete, and gave examples of this incompleteness by the documents being edited and the dates not right.

If you want to read into this they are missing, as in lost or never done, then this is just an assumption. Which brings me back to my question as to what are the Defense Team asking for and waiting for these past 2 weeks? For the Prosecution edit more documents, or invent some, as I figure they must have everything the Prosecution has already.

Sorry no more explaining from me, if you don't understand English I cannot teach you.

Edited September 26, 2015 by thailandchilli