Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao murder trial

[Fat Haggis]

This is from the thai autopsy. as you will see they have not said she was raped.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761319-koh-tao-autopsy-of-murdered-britons-shows-struggle-drowning/

The police have stated she was raped by the accused on many occasions, so are you now in agreement that they have been wrong in this case, in that the defendants did not rape the deceased?

In other words the RTP have fabricated evidence, based on what you've just said, to support their basis that they raped then murdered the deceased.

Would you care to explain how it's possible that neither the accused 's DNA is present on the alleged murder weapon, however the victims DNA is present?

Would you care to explain how the Thai coroner could come to that conclusion and how did the RTP arrive at that conclusion also, when a distant lack of the accused DNA is on the very instrument they allegedly killed their victim?

Why would they kill Hannah if she participated in consensual sex with either of the accused, what possible motive could they have had, after an act of consensual sex?

I'm all ears as this will be very interesting to hear, as it's going to be a complete contradiction as to the version of events the RTP and the prosecution are pushing!!

[Wifflewaffle]

This is from the thai autopsy. as you will see they have not said she was raped.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761319-koh-tao-autopsy-of-murdered-britons-shows-struggle-drowning/

The police have stated she was raped by the accused on many occasions, so are you now in agreement that they have been wrong in this case, in that the defendants did not rape the deceased?

In other words the RTP have fabricated evidence, based on what you've just said, to support their basis that they raped then murdered the deceased.

Would you care to explain how it's possible that neither the accused 's DNA is present on the alleged murder weapon, however the victims DNA is present?

Would you care to explain how the Thai coroner could come to that conclusion and how did the RTP arrive at that conclusion also, when a distant lack of the accused DNA is on the very instrument they allegedly killed their victim?

Why would they kill Hannah if she participated in consensual sex with either of the accused, what possible motive could they have had, after an act of consensual sex?

I'm all ears as this will be very interesting to hear, as it's going to be a complete contradiction as to the version of events the RTP and the prosecution are pushing!!

Just because there are not signs of rape doesn't mean she was not raped.

Also there is DNA on the hoe that could or could not be one of the B2 but it is not a full profile, so the defense only proved the prosecution right. as they have never claimed there was DNA from the suspects on the hoe.

[Wifflewaffle]

As seen as more and more FALSE statements are reported:

From translation of official Thai autopsy report:

4.1.2. The area of the *omitted* exhibited signs of sexual assault.

Rape is a form of sexual assault, but not all sexual assault is rape

https://rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault/sexual-assault

[Fat Haggis]

This is from the thai autopsy. as you will see they have not said she was raped.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761319-koh-tao-autopsy-of-murdered-britons-shows-struggle-drowning/

The police have stated she was raped by the accused on many occasions, so are you now in agreement that they have been wrong in this case, in that the defendants did not rape the deceased?

In other words the RTP have fabricated evidence, based on what you've just said, to support their basis that they raped then murdered the deceased.

Would you care to explain how it's possible that neither the accused 's DNA is present on the alleged murder weapon, however the victims DNA is present?

Would you care to explain how the Thai coroner could come to that conclusion and how did the RTP arrive at that conclusion also, when a distant lack of the accused DNA is on the very instrument they allegedly killed their victim?

Why would they kill Hannah if she participated in consensual sex with either of the accused, what possible motive could they have had, after an act of consensual sex?

I'm all ears as this will be very interesting to hear, as it's going to be a complete contradiction as to the version of events the RTP and the prosecution are pushing!!

Just because there are not signs of rape doesn't mean she was not raped.

Also there is DNA on the hoe that could or could not be one of the B2 but it is not a full profile, so the defense only proved the prosecution right. as they have never claimed there was DNA from the suspects on the hoe.

.

You mentioned previously she may have consented to sex, now your retracting this, by saying there's no signs of rape, it doesn't mean she wasn't.

So in other words your basing your opinions on RTP hearsay?

The RTP state she was raped, the Thai autopsy also indicates she was raped, the prosecution states she was raped, but just a few post above, you posted that the victim may have had consensual sex, based on another report.

These are the inconsistencies that are calling into question what really happened and whose version of events to actually believe.

Why would you take the report of the Thai coroner as accurate but dismiss the UK coroners report that states there was no evidence of rape?

Which one holds more credibility?

Does Kirsty Jones name ring any bells with some posters?

Edited September 27, 2015 by Fat Haggis

[newcomer71]

From a link previously posted:

What is sexual assault?

Sexual assault is a crime of power and control. The term sexual assault refers to sexual contact or behavior that occurs without explicit consent of the victim. Some forms of sexual assault include:

• Penetration of the victim’s body, also known as rape
• Attempted rape
• Forcing a victim to perform sexual acts, such as oral sex or penetrating the perpetrator’s body
• Fondling or unwanted sexual touching

Which of this 4 is compatible with the following?

Quote

4.1.2. The area of the *omitted* exhibited signs of sexual assault.

[Fat Haggis]

From a link previously posted:

What is sexual assault?

Sexual assault is a crime of power and control. The term sexual assault refers to sexual contact or behavior that occurs without explicit consent of the victim. Some forms of sexual assault include:

• Penetration of the victims body, also known as rape
• Attempted rape
• Forcing a victim to perform sexual acts, such as oral sex or penetrating the perpetrators body
• Fondling or unwanted sexual touching

Which of this 4 is compatible with the following?

Quote

4.1.2. The area of the *omitted* exhibited signs of sexual assault.

Don't fly too close to the light, I'm also guilty of this by engaging in dialogue, none of the "they're as guilty as sin" crowd seem to answer why they have dismissed the UK Home office autopsy result as a load of shit, and that the Thai version is correct. Without seeing the photographic evidence to back up that version, pretty sure the judge will have seen both reports, one extremely detailed with over 400 pages compete with photographs, and the Thai version with allegedly no accompanying photos, due to budget issues!!

[green job]

I think you have all said enough now. What ever you write will not change anything that happens in the Thai court. Personly i find most of your comments

offensive and disgraceful. The Miller family have stated in the JEP ( Jersey evening post ) that they were hoping that the press and forums such as these

would have respect.and leave the matters to the lawyers and other people involved.

[thailandchilli]

I've posted before about Andy Hall not being a very popular individual in the eyes of the Thai establishment. This was exemplified by him being berated by senior Thai policemen outside the Samui courthouse on the 1st day of the trial. They were annoyed by the fact that he had the sheer audacity to support the B2 and not their corrupted version of justice.

Actually the confrontation was, according to Andy Hall, for "disrespecting the families of the victims", and from what I've hear it has something to do with events described at the end of this article.

No thats completely untrue. The confrontation was outside the court with the lead RTP investigator asking why the defense are putting up such a strong case and that the Human rights lawyers should be working for the prosecution not the defense.

More smoke and mirrors.

Smoke and mirrors or deliberate misinformation being spread

[Fat Haggis]

I think you have all said enough now. What ever you write will not change anything that happens in the Thai court. Personly i find most of your comments

offensive and disgraceful. The Miller family have stated in the JEP ( Jersey evening post ) that they were hoping that the press and forums such as these

would have respect.and leave the matters to the lawyers and other people involved.

But you still took your time to come here and read all these disgraceful and offensive comments though?

You didn't need to read them, you could have just stayed out of these threads altogether, and now you're voicing an opinion about it too.

Pot-kettle-black

There has been nothing but respect shown towards the victims here and their families and a great deal of sympathy shown too.

But your naievity when it comes to Thai Justice is very clear indeed.

Sorry you feel this way, the majority of us here simply want to know what the truth is, and the majority here also know that the RTP are not exactly a shining example in law enforcement.

[joebrown]

As seen as more and more FALSE statements are reported:

From translation of official Thai autopsy report:

4.1.2. The area of the *omitted* exhibited signs of sexual assault.

Thanks for quoting an extract from the translated autopsy report for Hannah, and for the respect for the deceased and family.

With regard to David's injuries, I'm sure as can be that he was not killed solely by use of a hoe.

As you seem to have access to the translated Thai autopsy reports, is there specific reference therein to David's injuries, eg small stab-like wounds, and injuries to his hands to indicate a 'knuckle fight' because the police have stated the following : -

"Mr. Miller had wounds on his knuckles, suggesting he fought the perpetrator before he was killed, said Pol.Maj.Gen. Ponchai Sutheerakun. He added that no signs of sexual assault were found on Mr. Miller's body, effectively disputing earlier media reports that Mr. Miller was raped before his death".

I can't think why the police never made reference to the stab-like wounds when making the above statement, since photos of these injuries were in the public domain at that time?

Edited September 27, 2015 by joebrown

[Darkknight666]

I think you have all said enough now. What ever you write will not change anything that happens in the Thai court. Personly i find most of your comments

offensive and disgraceful. The Miller family have stated in the JEP ( Jersey evening post ) that they were hoping that the press and forums such as these

would have respect.and leave the matters to the lawyers and other people involved.

That's not discussing the topic.. And no matter how many times people try and use guilt to get people to stop posting on the topic it isn't going to work. Reminds me of JTJ, Honestly.

Social Media is the RTP's worst nightmare.... Of course they want it restricted, One Gateway, anyone?

[Fat Haggis]

Does everyone remember when they were very small, their parents convinced them on nothing more than their word and hearsay, that Santa Claus was real, and year after year you kept believing it, till it became apparent later on it was all a lie, shock horror wasn't it, it was one of the greatest lies your parents ever told you, and you beleieved that lie so much, that once you had kids of your own, despite knowing it's a lie, and make believe you still subjected your own kids to the very same lie and deceive them and convinced them Santa is real?

That's what's goin on here with some posters. That they're falling for the same sort of thing here.

The greats trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

I would love nothing more than to see the B2 guilty of everything they have been accused of doing, and be punished accordingly, but the antics and investigative techniques used by the RTP, the constant switching and changing of their version of events cast doubt early on the my had the right people in custody, nothing presented by the courts for the prosecution has convinced me they have the right guilty party.

What have the members that are supporting the prosecution and the RTP investigation seen that nobody else here seems to have seen, or the defence have not seen?

I was convinced that the case was so watertight that I really was thinking that it would have been better for the B2 to change their please to guilty and ask for clemency, again NOTHING presented makes me believe they're guilty, and I don't seem to be alone in my thoughts.

AleG, convince me from what you know, that the B2 are as guilty as sin, and I will gladly change my opinion of their guilt.

[AGareth2]

best police force in the world

perfect case

believe

remember S 44

we have some members of the faith already

[thailandchilli]

Semen DNA Evidence: Claims and counter claims

Right from the start of this case, the RTP supporters have (correctly) indicated that the key evidence is alleged DNA matches of the Burmese kids with semen samples allegedly found during the autopsy on Hannah. Below, I try to summarize the various statements that have been made about the semen samples, DNA tests, and supporting documentation to evaluate the credibility of that evidence.

First Issue : What is the evidence that a rape occurred?

• The Thai autopsy report states that three semen samples were found. The report further states that there were injuries on the Hannah's body that were consistent with sexual assault. To the best of my knowledge, there is no photographic evidence to back up these statements.
• Dr Pornthip, head of Thailand's Central Institute of Forensic Science (CIFS) and generally accepted as Thailand's leading forensic specialist, testified in court that, based on the photographic evidence of the body that is available to her (admittedly not comprehensive) there are no injuries typical of violent sexual assault.

  The RTP supporters have countered this by saying rape is possible without typical signs (TRUE), semen found proves rape (TRUE ONLY if semen really was found, AND various other conditions are satisfied), and Dr Pornthip supported the purchase of worthless airport scanners (IRRELEVANT).

• The defense has passed copies of the report of the UK postmortem (carried out by a Home Office pathologist) to the judges and prosecution. The report is apparently 400 pages long with full photographic evidence of its findings. The report comes to the same conclusion as Dr Pornthip that injuries typical of sexual assault were not present, and directly contradicts important findings in the Thai autopsy report, raising great doubts over that report's credibility.

  The RTP supporters have countered this by saying rape is possible without typical signs (TRUE but does not explain why the Thai report says there were), semen found proves rape (TRUE ONLY if semen really was found, AND various other conditions are satisfied), the credentials of the UK Home Office Pathologist have not been established, and the UK Home Office Pathologist's report cannot be accepted as valid evidence unless he is willing to travel to Thailand and testify as to its contents in person (DESPERATE : are they really claiming the photos are faked; if so, show us the Thai autopsy photos that prove this).

Second Issue : Where are the samples?

(Background: to understand the statements below, it is important to understand what Replicated DNA is. A small quantity of the original Reference Sample is put through a process called PCR. To simplify, this creates large amounts of DNA restricted to sequences that are highly variable between individuals. This is call Replicated DNA. However, there is no way one can know the origin of the Replicated DNA. Unlike the original Reference Sample, one cannot distinguish semen from a hair follicle or blood. Only small amounts of the source material are needed for PCR, and it is generally accepted practice to retain some of the Reference Sample for potential future retesting.)

• The RTP has repeatedly made statements that Reference Samples (in particular, semen samples) are lost or more usually, "used up". This is an inexplicable breach of normal forensic procedure.
• Pol. Lt. Col. Kewalee stated that '"all" genetic material tested in the lab is replicated and saved for at least one year'. This sounds good until one realizes that she is referring to the Replicated DNA from the PCR process. Replicated DNA degrades much faster than the DNA in the Reference Sample and, as said, the type of the original sample cannot be determined.
• The defense, who had strenuously argued for retesting of the Reference Samples (especially the semen samples) were initially happy to hear this, as (like pretty much everyone else) they misunderstood what was really available.
• The RTP said they would provide the CIFS Replicated DNA for retesting, and say where it came from. Understandably, the defense elected against retesting under those conditions. However, attempts were made by RTP supporters to portray this as doubts over the defendants' innocence.
• RTP supporters contest the claims above, stating that, although some prosecution witnesses said the Reference Samples were "used up", others implied they were not. In particular, Pol Lt Col Kewalee's statement that Replicated DNA was kept did not preclude the continued existence of one or more Reference Samples.
• The original existence of the DNA samples, its collection, testing, and disposal or current location should be available via documentation called 'Chain of Custody'.of which more later.

Third Issue : Wrong people involved

• Thailand's Central Institute of Forensic Science was specifically established to provide quality forensic testing, independent of the police investigative team, and promote confidence in Thailand's justice system.
• In a high profile case like this, one would have expected the CIFS to be heavily involved. In fact, until they were contacted by the defense and asked to independently evaluate forensic issues, they were kept completely out of the case. The police did all testing themselves in house. Besides the issue of quality of the testing, there are obvious questions about independence.

Fourth Issue : Inadequate Documentation

Given that the RTP was doing all evidence collection and testing themselves, with no independent oversight, impeccable records keeping and transparency was a must.

• The defense has been requesting full autopsy results, including photos, and chains of custody of Reference Samples and DNA tests for many months. Up until the trial stated in July, the RTP could argue privacy concerns prevented them from complying. Since then, they have been ordered by the judges to hand the information over, but claim budget constraints mean they cannot comply.
• What little the defense or CIFS has been given has been described as incomplete, riddled with obvious errors and sometimes modified later.
• A high regarded foreign expert witness, in Thailand specifically to pass judgment on the documentation of the Reference Samples and DNA tests has been unable even to testify because the defense have been given so little to analyze.
• RTP supporters variously claim that the defense has everything available to the prosecution, that the defense failed to ask for it, that the deficiencies are minor and do not detract from the overall results, and that the defense is nitpicking because they cannot prove the DNA testing was not done correctly.

Corrections welcome

Thank you, excellent post on some of the more significant issues the trial is facing. Of course now that you have taken the time and effort to compose this in detail it then leaves it open to pedantic scrutiny by some. But we all expect that.

For a point of note and one which I think is extremely important to add to your post are the bite marks.

The Thai autopsy report said the victim had bite marks, this supported their assertion that she had been sexually assaulted/raped. The UK pathologist/coroner had a copy of the Thai autopsy and so was able to scrutinize this claim. It was confirmed in the UK report that no bite marks were found on any area of the victim.

This a a major discrepancy and cannot be explained away by saying this is a minor detail. It is not and at the very least is proof of incompetence in the Thai autopsy or as I suspect proof of a false claim. "Natural Justice" is what the UK corner said when agreeing to release the report.

How can anything put forward by the Thai pathologist be trusted in light of this. Is he not the one who also had possession of the hair and thats disappeared, is he also not the one who had possession of the victims clothes. Where are they, why were they not tested.

[stephenterry]

The only certainty is that the Thai autopsy is not credible. Enough reasonable doubt not to rely on it.

[Fat Haggis]

Let's put something to bed here in regards to certain "witnesses"

When any prosecution present evidence or data, the defence will bring in "expert witnesses" they are not related to the trial per say, they are brought in as subject matter experts to "question/confirm/deny" the prosecutions own expert witness.

These witnesses should be significant people within their field, whether they are surgeons, motor mechanics or forensic analysts, they are not brought in because they don't know anything, they tend to be brought in because of the opposite, in that there's not much they don't know.

All they are doing is providing the judge with knowledge he/she himself doesn't posses, and therefore he has to rely on their "professional opinions". You would never see or hear of a judge question that opinion either, he shouldn't unless he is in possession of a knowledge that he himself can be questioned on.

Expert witnesses are used the world over, it is the job of the defence to get the best people they can, or the accused can, to be able to counter the prosecutions evidence and witnesses.

Dr.Porntip is very eccentric, she does clash often with the establishment but there is no doubts to her expertise, sure she was lambasted over the GT200 detectors, but there is a person amongst other senior people, who were also involved in that procurement and they now running the country !! So shall we leave credibility out of this ?

Running your mouth off about people who are leads in their field smacks of ignorance and jealousy, if the people who doubt their backgrounds and experience, feel free to hop over to Samui, and ask to be put on the stand and refute that subject matter experts and close with " in your professional opinion" and see what the judge actually makes of your said " professional opinion".

There is nothing sinister in what the defence are doing, it's big standar procedures, it's a defence teams job to get their clients aquitted by any means necessary within the confines of the law.

To come away in a serious murder trial and state they cannot give documents to the defence due to some " public law" is an obstruction to many, I also believe the judges asked for them too, whether this has been done, nobody here knows, unless they are getting inside information.

[B166ER]

....377 days, 9,048 hours, 542,880 minutes and so it goes....a million times of breathing in and out that Mr. Miller and Miss Witheridge will neverbe able to do for the sole reason of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Big things have small beginnings. No more apparent than in this

case. Words exchanged, tempers flared, combo of worlds colliding. Following this tragedy from its inception albeit in the shadows, I've come to a

conclusion that it did start from their last known whereabouts and involves not just "Powerful" locals but to protect and serve

officials as well. No other agency protects their own as "the protect and serve" brigade. Serpico is a good reference. I'm sure he'd concur.

What we see here is a failure to communicate. Some people you just can't reach. So you get what we have printed here for 53 weeks which is the way they we want it. Well, we get it. I don't like it any more than you do....with respects to cool hand Luke.

This whole charade is a continuance of worlds colliding. Its much bigger than just a families reputation on a "Foot Sized" island. Sure I believe

the players involved already identified in the beginning and almost caught were the right choice.

I was so happy when the announcement was made that the perpetrators were going to be apprehended, within a few days. Followed by that feeling that Santa Clause was indeed not real.

One thing for real though in this case is "who" they are really protecting and to "serve". Some posters on this site have their foreshadows in the right corner.

Follow the Law and Order trail, more to come....

[thailandchilli]

This is from the thai autopsy. as you will see they have not said she was raped.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761319-koh-tao-autopsy-of-murdered-britons-shows-struggle-drowning/

The B2 are charged with rape not sexual assault

[Wifflewaffle]

This is from the thai autopsy. as you will see they have not said she was raped.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761319-koh-tao-autopsy-of-murdered-britons-shows-struggle-drowning/

The B2 are charged with rape not sexual assault

"Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced."

So its for the defense to prove they had Consensual sex and the prosecutions job to prove it was rape.

[Aj Mick]

I think you have all said enough now. What ever you write will not change anything that happens in the Thai court. Personly i find most of your comments

offensive and disgraceful. The Miller family have stated in the JEP ( Jersey evening post ) that they were hoping that the press and forums such as these

would have respect.and leave the matters to the lawyers and other people involved.

It was in a large part because of the press and forums like these that the case has some prominence and the Burmese lads have decent lawyers and others working on the case.

If it had been left up to the prosecutors the case may not have even made it to the courts. They sent it back to the police many times, but in the end they most likely came under pressure from "above" to take it.

Once in court, the prosecutors and no doubt the RTP, were looking for a quick case, probably with court appointed lawyers, and convictions to close the case. The press and social media raised the profile of the case, which has resulted in the lads having a better, more committed defence.

Not guilty, or guilty though a miscarriage of justice will not bring closure. Only the arrest and conviction of the real culprits would go some way towards that…… which it would now seem is not going to happen.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Aj Mick

[thailandchilli]

This is from the thai autopsy. as you will see they have not said she was raped.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761319-koh-tao-autopsy-of-murdered-britons-shows-struggle-drowning/

The B2 are charged with rape not sexual assault

"Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced."

So its for the defense to prove they had Consensual sex and the prosecutions job to prove it was rape.

Refer to my previous post, the charge is rape, its pretty obvious what the defense's job is.

[joebrown]

Which explains why the rtp have acted to protect Thais. They probably are furious with the defence for not supporting them. No one dare question a Thai authority. It's ingrained in Thai society.

I've posted before about Andy Hall not being a very popular individual in the eyes of the Thai establishment. This was exemplified by him being berated by senior Thai policemen outside the Samui courthouse on the 1st day of the trial. They were annoyed by the fact that he had the sheer audacity to support the B2 and not their corrupted version of justice.

Actually the confrontation was, according to Andy Hall, for "disrespecting the families of the victims", and from what I've hear it has something to do with events described at the end of this article.

And we know the editor of the Samui times has a "beef" with Andy, so it is no surprise he is slagged off there........

There are many off limit "beefs' anyone who seeks justice could raise about the TVF postings of the Thai police puppets, but one thing they keep repeating ad nauseum is their accusation that the defence is desperately seeking media attention. They say this is because there are only Tweets by Andy Hall and conclude from this that reporting of the trial is one-sided and unreliable.

Sorry guys and gals, this simply doesn't 'cut the mustard' with those of us who live in the world where truth, justice and freedom of thought and speech don't play second fiddle to the bank balances of any establishment be it either police, civil service or government.

Stop crying 'crocodile tears' and blaming the defence for one-sided reporting, because the lack of concise direct media coverage of the trial is exactly what your paymasters have deemed necessary to protect any remaining shreds of credibility in a greatly flawed investigation/cover-up.

Sadly, press freedom in LOS is subject to 'attitude adjustment', and the editors also have to carefully balance their reporting so as not to jeopardise advertising income by reporting the unpalatbe truth, which might also be damaging to the country's image (income from tourism). In these situations truth is an inconvenience to be avoided at all costs, even if it means convicting and executing 2 innocent persons.

[Fat Haggis]

This is from the thai autopsy. as you will see they have not said she was raped.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761319-koh-tao-autopsy-of-murdered-britons-shows-struggle-drowning/

The B2 are charged with rape not sexual assault

"Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced."

So its for the defense to prove they had Consensual sex and the prosecutions job to prove it was rape.

Nope, it is solely the word of Thai coroner that the victim had sexual intercourse prior to her death, the prosecution states rape, the U.K. Coroners report stated there was no evidence of sexual assault.

In between all 3 there is the truth, there was no evidence left other than replicated DNA that allegedly supports the RTP and prosecution claim, the Thai coroner clearly states bite marks, the U.K. Coroner said nope.

These are only 2 of the discrepancies that we have been made aware of, there may well be many others that have not been released to the public yet.

Can you please explain how you can come to believe the Thai coroners results over the UK coroners results please ?

I will ask you the same thing as I asked AleG, convince me based on what YOU know, that the B2 are guilty beyond all reasonable doubt and I will change my views accordingly.

[Fat Haggis]

Which explains why the rtp have acted to protect Thais. They probably are furious with the defence for not supporting them. No one dare question a Thai authority. It's ingrained in Thai society.

I've posted before about Andy Hall not being a very popular individual in the eyes of the Thai establishment. This was exemplified by him being berated by senior Thai policemen outside the Samui courthouse on the 1st day of the trial. They were annoyed by the fact that he had the sheer audacity to support the B2 and not their corrupted version of justice.

Actually the confrontation was, according to Andy Hall, for "disrespecting the families of the victims", and from what I've hear it has something to do with events described at the end of this article.

And we know the editor of the Samui times has a "beef" with Andy, so it is no surprise he is slagged off there........

There are many off limit "beefs' anyone who seeks justice could raise about the TVF postings of the Thai police puppets, but one thing they keep repeating ad nauseum is their accusation that the defence is desperately seeking media attention. They say this is because there are only Tweets by Andy Hall and conclude from this that reporting of the trial is one-sided and unreliable.

Sorry guys and gals, this simply doesn't 'cut the mustard' with those of us who live in the world where truth, justice and freedom of thought and speech don't play second fiddle to the bank balances of any establishment be it either police, civil service or government.

Stop crying 'crocodile tears' and blaming the defence for one-sided reporting, because the lack of concise direct media coverage of the trial is exactly what your paymasters have deemed necessary to protect any remaining shreds of credibility in a greatly flawed investigation/cover-up.

Sadly, press freedom in LOS is subject to 'attitude adjustment', and the editors also have to carefully balance their reporting so as not to jeopardise advertising income by reporting the unpalatbe truth, which might also be damaging to the country's image (income from tourism). In these situations truth is an inconvenience to be avoided at all costs, even if it means convicting and executing 2 innocent persons.

Why do you think there's some sort of a gag order and that no reporters are allowed to take notes?

Thailand authorities don't want this case being the focus of the outside world, they have done the same thing with regards to the erawan shrine bombing.

Idle threats by Somyot about reporting innacuracies and false information are nothing but a joke as the bigger disseminates of false and innacurate information are the cops themselves.

Face, not justice is what this trial is about. Do they care if they execute innocents ? Not in the slightest, it's all about Face.

[thailandchilli]

This is from the thai autopsy. as you will see they have not said she was raped.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761319-koh-tao-autopsy-of-murdered-britons-shows-struggle-drowning/

The police have stated she was raped by the accused on many occasions, so are you now in agreement that they have been wrong in this case, in that the defendants did not rape the deceased?

In other words the RTP have fabricated evidence, based on what you've just said, to support their basis that they raped then murdered the deceased.

Would you care to explain how it's possible that neither the accused 's DNA is present on the alleged murder weapon, however the victims DNA is present?

Would you care to explain how the Thai coroner could come to that conclusion and how did the RTP arrive at that conclusion also, when a distant lack of the accused DNA is on the very instrument they allegedly killed their victim?

Why would they kill Hannah if she participated in consensual sex with either of the accused, what possible motive could they have had, after an act of consensual sex?

I'm all ears as this will be very interesting to hear, as it's going to be a complete contradiction as to the version of events the RTP and the prosecution are pushing!!

Just because there are not signs of rape doesn't mean she was not raped.

Also there is DNA on the hoe that could or could not be one of the B2 but it is not a full profile, so the defense only proved the prosecution right. as they have never claimed there was DNA from the suspects on the hoe.

Jesus just saw this post from you! Have you not read the previous posts? The dna on the hoe that was not identified could also have shown the same results from any man dragged off the street! If your clinging to that then desperation has set in for you that has transformed into delusion.

As for no signs of rape does not mean there was no rape, your correct, that is possible, however we are not talking one single act of violence here but multiple and I will not go into details. For that it would be highly unlikely to not have signs and thats why the UK report is so relevant along with Dr Pornthips report.

Edited September 27, 2015 by thailandchilli

[Dogmatix]

So let me get this right, a DNA expert analyst for the defence even stated she was surprised that the results came so quick, and very early on it was alleged that Thailand didn't have the ability to have results yielded so quick, in some cases less than 48 hours.

It was then alleged that the samples were sent to Singapore to be independently verified, would I be right them is stating that the claims that the RTP processed these DNA samples in several different places of theirs is also a fabrication ? This would mean that if they sent the DNA Analysis to several different locations there should be several sets of "chain of custody" documentation to accompany these results then?

Who received the samples in Singapore ? If they were ever sent there in the first place.

Given that Thailand and the RTP labs seem to be able to process DNA with such efficiency and speed, are they not being asked to analyse DNA from outside the country seeing as they're now the Hub of rapid DNA results?

Thailand, the new hub of falsified DNA results.

[Fat Haggis]

To use the words of Jordan Belfort as in " sell me this pen"

To those who firmly believe in the B2s guilt unequivocally

"sell me their guilt !!!"

Feel free to PM me if you don't wish to discuss how you have arrived at your conclusions on the open forum

Edited September 27, 2015 by Fat Haggis

[stephenterry]

This is from the thai autopsy. as you will see they have not said she was raped.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761319-koh-tao-autopsy-of-murdered-britons-shows-struggle-drowning/

The police have stated she was raped by the accused on many occasions, so are you now in agreement that they have been wrong in this case, in that the defendants did not rape the deceased?

In other words the RTP have fabricated evidence, based on what you've just said, to support their basis that they raped then murdered the deceased.

Would you care to explain how it's possible that neither the accused 's DNA is present on the alleged murder weapon, however the victims DNA is present?

Would you care to explain how the Thai coroner could come to that conclusion and how did the RTP arrive at that conclusion also, when a distant lack of the accused DNA is on the very instrument they allegedly killed their victim?

Why would they kill Hannah if she participated in consensual sex with either of the accused, what possible motive could they have had, after an act of consensual sex?

I'm all ears as this will be very interesting to hear, as it's going to be a complete contradiction as to the version of events the RTP and the prosecution are pushing!!

Just because there are not signs of rape doesn't mean she was not raped.

Also there is DNA on the hoe that could or could not be one of the B2 but it is not a full profile, so the defense only proved the prosecution right. as they have never claimed there was DNA from the suspects on the hoe.

Jesus just saw this post from you! Have you not read the previous posts? The dna on the hoe that was not identified could also have shown the same results from any man dragged off the street! If your clinging to that then desperation has set in for you that has transformed into delusion.

As for no signs of rape does not mean there was no rape, your correct, that is possible, however we are not talking one single act of violence here but multiple and I will not go into details. For that it would be highly unlikely to not have signs and thats why the UK report is so relevant along with Dr Pornthips report.

Yeah, it's a slam dunk there was no rape, thus no semen, otherwise the RTP would put the sealed and dated test-tube, plus the results on the defence's table at the outset of the trial and tell them to disprove it.

The absence of ANY such evidence or RTP's willingness to produce same is absolute proof there is none. Read that again. There is none. It's been a fit-up from day one they arrested the B2 and tortured them into confessing to crimes they did not commit. I applaud the UK coroner for seeking natural justice by condemning the Thai autopsy as being false.

[Dogmatix]

Defence lawyer Nakhon Chompuchat said Friday’s witnesses in the case of the killings of David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23, testified mostly about the problems of using unprofessional translators to interrogate the two defendants. The witnesses were a Myanmar scholar who teaches in Thailand, the translator for the Myanmar embassy and an embassy secretary.

Questions were raised by the witnesses about ethnic biases on the part of the translators – both from Myanmar – as well as their competence and whether they were living in Thailand illegally and thus susceptible to police pressure in their tasks.

Source: http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/1861582/lost-translation-lawyers-men-accused-koh-tao-murder-claim

The last point about police pressure on the translators because of their ambiguous legal status is a good one that, for some reason, had not occurred to me.

Without intending to blow my own trumpet, I have been suggesting the two pancake translators are illegal immigrants since they first emerged on the scene. They are Rohingyas from Rakhine state in Burma, whom the Burmese government call Bengalis and refuses them Burmese citizenship, while the Bangladeshi government also abhors them and doesn't recognise them as Bengladeshi. That means they are stateless and it is impossible for them to have legal passports. So how could they have ever come to Thailand legally, let alone to operate roti stalls in the street, which probably means operating a business without documentation, unless the stalls are legitimately Thai owned, and certainly means doing a job selling things which is reserved for Thais under the Royal Decree.

The main pancake man who was interviewed on Thai TV told the interviewer in his broken Thai that he had been in Thailand 18 years (as well as saying that the murder weapon was a large wine bottle). It is pretty obvious that, like other Rohingyas in Thailand who have managed to save up enough money, the pancake man has purchased a fake Thai ID card. The best and most expensive ones are actually issued by corrupt district officers using the personal details of deceased Thais of a roughly similar birth date, who have deliberately not been struck off the register by the corrupt officials after their deaths were reported. This is extremely common. Many cases have been reported in the press all over the country involving Burmese, Nepalis, Chinese etc for years but still the Interior Ministry refuses to take steps to make this business impossible, presumably because it is so lucrative and some of the proceeds are passed up the pipe.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Dogmatix

[AGareth2]

The UK gov will know the findings of the "report"

not good diplospeak to call someone out as a liar