Report: China inks deal to buy 300 Boeing jets

[webfact]

Report: China inks deal to buy 300 Boeing jets

HONG KONG (AP) — Chinese companies have agreed with Boeing to buy 300 jets and build an aircraft assembly plant in China in deals signed during President Xi Jinping's visit to the United States, the official Xinhua news agency said Wednesday.

China Aviation Supplies Holding, ICBC Financial Leasing and China Development Bank Leasing inked the jet purchase agreement after Xi's arrival in Seattle, Xinhua said. It did not give details of the plane models involved or the deal's value.

State-owned Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China, which is better known as COMAC, also signed a cooperation agreement with the U.S. plane maker to build a 737 aircraft assembly center in China.

Xi planned to visit Boeing's Paine Field assembly plant during the Seattle leg of his trip before moving on to Washington, D.C. to meet President Barack Obama.

The assembly plant would be Boeing's first in China and signals its attempt to match its European rival Airbus's Chinese presence as the two rivals step up their efforts to win more business in the country's lucrative aircraft market.

Airbus opened its first assembly line outside of Europe in 2008 with a Tianjin facility that turns out four A320 aircraft per month. In July, Airbus signed a deal for a second completion and delivery center for A330 jets.

Boeing sold a record 155 airplanes last year to customers in China, and so far this year, a quarter of its jets have been delivered there. The company predicts that over the next two decades China will overtake the U.S. as the world's biggest plane market with demand for 6,330 new airplanes worth an estimated $950 billion.

China's state planning agency also signed an agreement with Boeing to promote cooperation in the aviation industry, Xinhua said.

Shares of Boeing Co. fell $1.94, or $1.5 percent, to $132.05 in afternoon trading Wednesday in New York.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-09-24

[Credo]

I hope the standard of building those planes in China is better than the standard of much of what is produced in the country.

[jaiyen]

Last year I saw a documentary about the new 787 factory in USA. It was filmed with a hidden camera, obviously, and the interviews with the workers, who were all unskilled, never worked on planes before, was scary. They said things like rivets are hammered in if the holes dont line up properly. finished items are not checked properly if at all. They all said they would never fly on a 787 and reckoned it would have major problems within 2 years. Try to find it and watch it if you can. However, I always fly on a 787 from Perth to Bangkok and I think it is a lovely plane.

[Roger Lee]

Boeing has been manufacturing sub-assemblies there for years, shipping them back to the states for final assembly. Many jobs have been lost because of this. Sounds like many more lost jobs to come.

[copa8]

I hope the standard of building those planes in China is better than the standard of much of what is produced in the country.

True...we all know what crap standards those Apple products that are built there are.

[Nuddy]

This is another joke...right?

So there were 155 planes built in a record year.

First we build a new plant, then we start building planes ...?

thats what probably 5 to ten years work right there...I do not see any job losses I see prosperity unless, of course , the cheques bounce etc etc

[Roger Lee]

This is another joke...right?

So there were 155 planes built in a record year.

First we build a new plant, then we start building planes ...?

thats what probably 5 to ten years work right there...I do not see any job losses I see prosperity unless, of course , the cheques bounce etc etc

I watched Boeing move out of Wichita and now many of those jobs are in China now. Building a factory in China will effectively make use of cheap labor, not to mention the good jobs in the states being endangered by this.

The dollar is almighty, nothing else matters with these guys.

[impulse]

This is another joke...right?

So there were 155 planes built in a record year.

First we build a new plant, then we start building planes ...?

thats what probably 5 to ten years work right there...I do not see any job losses I see prosperity unless, of course , the cheques bounce etc etc

They can steal any drawings they want over the interweb. But they can't train their people what they don't know. For that, they need western companies to come in, open a factory and train the seeds of their own demise.

They want 4 things in any "joint venture".

1) Your technology

2) Your customer list

3) Your investment money

And once they have those 3

4) They want you to go back home- they'll take it from there. With a different name on the factory you thought you owned.

Short term gain, probably for Boeing- definitely not for Boeing workers. Long term- Boeing's betting the farm on a questionable "partner", with no legal recourse if things do go into the toilet. You can't sue the government in China...

Edited September 25, 2015 by impulse

[Srikcir]

On the upside, a higher standard of living that comes with increased wages will create a very mobile Chinese work force and swell the middle class. This will increase the nation's need for more Boeing aircraft. Someday we might even see the Chinese Premier traveling in his own customized Boeing 747 Air Force One!

[losworld]

Building in China? <deleted>! This is how the game is played in China. U.S. companies go there to produce cheaper with cheaper labor and no environmental controls. Chinese take note and steal the technology and manufacturing process. U.S. companies soon have competitors in China copying their products. Game over.

[Publicus]

On the upside, a higher standard of living that comes with increased wages will create a very mobile Chinese work force and swell the middle class. This will increase the nation's need for more Boeing aircraft. Someday we might even see the Chinese Premier traveling in his own customized Boeing 747 Air Force One!

The dayze of a growing middle class in the CCP China are over. After 30 years of breakneck but vacuous growth, the CCP Chinese middle class is maxed out at some 500 million. Middle class growth from here forward will occur only on the margins of that segment of the population of 1.6 bn.

One needs to understand how the CCP China is unique. For instance Nomura, which last year was the first to call the bursting of the property/housing bubble, said growth of less than 5% over five consecutive quarters is a literal recession. There are differing assessments of growth for this year, but optimists see GDP at less than 4% for the four quarters of this year. Others see 2015 growth at no better than 2.2%.

Lombard Research says the economy went below zero in the first quarter of this year and that it is in a traditionally defined recession. Next year is going to be only worse. Daiwa said GDP will lose 20% by the end of 2018.

The global concern had been that the CCP China would become stuck in the classic middle income trap. Now most global markets only hope the inept CCP Boyz in Beijing can maintain a stable middle class in the midst of all the crashing and clanking going on in the economy.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Publicus

[squarethecircle]

How do you get the CNY should be 5.3 to the USD instead of 6.4, Publicus?

[Publicus]

How do you get the CNY should be 5.3 to the USD instead of 6.4, Publicus?

How do I get certain things and most things? By some research among other real experiences. I'd posted 5.4 btw, not 5.3, based on the rate of 6.3

One US Dollar currently buys 6.44 Yuan (CNH) outside of China but only 6.39 Yuan (CNY) within China.

http://business.nab.com.au/investment-where-to-from-here-for-the-chinese-yuan-13005/

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/currency

If the onshore yuan is undervalued by 15%, and I do some quick math for this public general interest internet forum, one can get the 5.4 rate of exchange for the onshore yuan.

nese Yuan Renminbi (CNY) to 1 US Dollar (USD)

The graph below shows historical exchange rates between the Chinese Yuan Renminbi (CNY) and the US Dollar (USD) between 3/29/2015 and 9/24/2015

Chinese Yuan Renminbi (CNY) to 1 US Dollar (USD)Apr 1May 1Jun 1Jul 1Aug 1Sep 166.16.26.36.46.5Sunday, Jun 28, 2015● 6.307718

min = 6.0810 (June 19) avg = 6.2485 max = 6.4121 (August 25)

The graph above displays historical exchange rates between the Chinese Yuan Renminbi and the US Dollar.

http://www.exchange-rates.org/history/CNY/USD/G/180

It is doubtful that simply raising the yuan’s exchange rate alone would eliminate the US’s current account deficit with China. The US current account deficit with China is but a mirror image of the excess of US gross domestic investment over US gross domestic saving. In other words, the US is consuming too much and not saving enough to finance its investment. As a result, it must make up the deficit by importing it from China. On the other hand, China’s current account surplus with the US is but a mirror image of China’s excess of gross domestic saving over China’ gross domestic investment. In other words, China is consuming too little and saving more than enough to finance its investment. As a result, it must reduce its surplus by exporting it to the US.

http://livingeconomics.org/article.asp?docId=343

[LawrenceChee]

On this actually I would say leave Boeing back in the USA ....the Americans need to find a model where their home business can be kept in America at a productivity and labor rate they can mange to churn out a corporate profit

China has enough pollution , on that issue I would rather some of these heavy industries not be moved to China

Strange as it sounds not every Chinese man is after a dollar .. I would like to see the old China rejuvenate itself in some cities

[Publicus]

This is the old China.

Still.

A new China can emerge only after the CCP emperors in business suits play themselves out, which has begun to occur. The CCP dynasty of emperors in business suits are a young and nervous dynasty that survives only by keeping a tight lid of controls and indoctrination on the people.

Chinese people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and in many other places show that democracy and classic liberalism are universal and successful values.

The state corporation mentioned in the OP is still trying to get their project of the past ten years, the Comac 919 passenger jet of 158 seat fame, off the assembly line as six prototype test models. The Comac state airline corporation was supposed to have started operating this year but it hasn't managed to get a plane through the assembly line after ten years of trying. That is the old China fumbling along in the present.

Post-CCP China will be competent, modern, egalitarian; efficient.

[LawrenceChee]

It's amusing how some people here think they can fix China ..

Singapore is not a democracy and I am holding their passports , it's an efficient country and if you delve deeper into their political meddling and recent policies , some may find that worst than the communist CCP government

They have many virtues as a gateway city for businessman and rich people in Singapore but if you compare that with democracy , it's a far fetch notion

Edited September 26, 2015 by LawrenceChee

[Publicus]

It's amusing how some people here think they can fix China ..

The United States rebuilt Japan after WW2 and Germany too not to mention Europe itself. South Korea too after the Korean Conflict. USA supports Taiwan, advocates democracy and free markets in Hong Kong, has Singapore as a solid informal (non-treaty) ally. The CCP Boyz in Beijing only patrons in the world North Korea and Robert Mugabe. The CCP Chinese just shake their heads about it.

The Chinese haven't got it anywhere near right for 200 years running, 500 years non-stop if we go back to the last 'successful' dynasty. The Chinese people don't trust their leaders no matter who the leaders are, or when. The Chinese know some leaders will be better than others, some leaders will be worse, most will be dubious at best. The one single and salient thing that distinguishes the CCP young and nervous dynasty of emperors in business suits from the Tang Dynasty for instance is 1000 years, that is all.

The Chinese never ask why did you do that, the Chinese ask how did you do that, and how can 'we' do it.

It has become more than obvious to the CCP Chinese that the Boyz' economy is not sustainable. And that contrary to CCP dogma, doctrine, preachings, the United States did not fail in 2008 and that the USA is a country of success and successes. So the vast number of the people of China know who to call when the time comes to put in a new foundation and build a new edifice. They also have the strong suspicion successful government and democracy seem to fit hand in glove while their existing system is nothing but ham-handed. The Chinese know that when you want to get something done, you get everybody together and push. Everybody.

[metisdead]

A post in violation of fair use policy has been removed.

[LawrenceChee]

I think from an Asian perspective there is always this internal drive to push for success and along the way have a bit of hardship as part of the package . My grandad taught me never to shy away from hard work and be prepared for a few knocks here and there if you want a global view and perspective and yet retain your Chinese heritage

Working as part of a team is also traditionally a safe way to learn new skill sets in Asian and while some advocate the western values of self independence , there are some pockets of society where this does not gel well with the Asian mentality and working in teams seems to work better

No right or wrong it's a matter of how it's done and ones personal preference

I personally believe the Chinese and CCP ability to push and take the hardship along the way is one of the many reasons why infrastructure and projects were successful and the country has made its mark

Along the way now it needs to make adjustments so that it will not fail or fall under the illusion that only the western method will work out ...China needs to set its own path because it is China

There are some culture where talking is more valued than action and I guess it shows in some cities where they have talked about City growth plans for decades and have have just mould to show for it

[Roger Lee]

The Chinese never ask why did you do that, the Chinese ask how did you do that, and how can 'we' do it.

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, they are fantastic copiers but not very good at innovation.

[impulse]

The Chinese never ask why did you do that, the Chinese ask how did you do that, and how can 'we' do it.

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, they are fantastic copiers but not very good at innovation.

That's only partially true. They can be great innovators, but unless they have access to what's already out there, they have a tendency to "invent" stuff that's been available outside of China for years, if not decades. They'd just never seen it before. After you've done that a few times, you learn a lesson...

Why would you innovate, when you can carry your technology decades ahead by reverse engineering what's already out there- for virtually no R&D cost?

But make no mistake, like the 15th group of settlers who can simply follow the wagon ruts of the guys who blazed and defined the trail, they'll catch up in a fraction of the time it took to develop the technology. Then we'll see the innovation.

[Thongkorn]

The Chinese never ask why did you do that, the Chinese ask how did you do that, and how can 'we' do it.

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, they are fantastic copiers but not very good at innovation.

Did you know European Airbus make a lot of parts for Boeing.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Thongkorn

[Publicus]

The Chinese never ask why did you do that, the Chinese ask how did you do that, and how can 'we' do it.

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, they are fantastic copiers but not very good at innovation.

Did you know European Airbus make a lot of parts for Boeing.

According to Boeing specs on a contract.

Boeing did a lot of outsourcing of its Dreamline but one doesn't see EADS/Airbus on the list that includes Italy, Sweden, China, and South Korea. Unless one might be talking about toilet seats.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Publicus

[Publicus]

The Chinese never ask why did you do that, the Chinese ask how did you do that, and how can 'we' do it.

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, they are fantastic copiers but not very good at innovation.

That's only partially true. They can be great innovators, but unless they have access to what's already out there, they have a tendency to "invent" stuff that's been available outside of China for years, if not decades. They'd just never seen it before. After you've done that a few times, you learn a lesson...

Why would you innovate, when you can carry your technology decades ahead by reverse engineering what's already out there- for virtually no R&D cost?

But make no mistake, like the 15th group of settlers who can simply follow the wagon ruts of the guys who blazed and defined the trail, they'll catch up in a fraction of the time it took to develop the technology. Then we'll see the innovation.

The Boeing Dreamliner is a revolution in aviation in among other aspects the carbon composite material originally created and developed in UK to replace aluminum in the manufacture of the passenger aircraft body. EADS/Airbus are still testing the new designs and their applications.

The CCP Chinese will not be able to innovate very well if at all because the CCP Boyz in Beijing have a lock on information, knowledge, techniques, protocols, R&D and the like. The CCP also determines who may or may not research or innovate. A CCP party hack innovator is a pathetic thing to see.

Boeing 787 Dreamliner the first of a new generation of aircraft

The commercial plane and others in development hold the promise of flying faster, farther and with more fuel efficiency and passenger amenities than predecessors.

A new age in air travel is set to be ushered in later this month when a 787 Dreamliner operated by All Nippon Airways lifts off from Tokyo to Hong Kong on its first passenger flight.

The Dreamliner, made by Boeing Co., represents a major technological shift in the way planes are made and operated.

"This truly is the first new airplane of the 21st century," Jim Albaugh, chief executive of Boeing's commercial airplanes division, said last week when the company formally delivered its first passenger-ready Dreamliner to All Nippon. "Today, Sept. 26, 2011, will always be remembered as the dawn of a new day in commercial aviation."

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/01/business/la-fi-cover-jet-revolution-20111002

I'd mentioned the CCP Comac 919 'created' by CCP engineers at the CCP state corporation identified in the OP, which after 11 years of starting from scratch still hasn't got a single plane through its assembly line of CCP party hack workers and their CCP party hack executives.

[NeverSure]

But make no mistake, like the 15th group of settlers who can simply follow the wagon ruts of the guys who blazed and defined the trail, they'll catch up in a fraction of the time it took to develop the technology. Then we'll see the innovation.

Catching up is not the same as innovating, even if that's possible. How do you catch up with someone who is continually forging ahead when you are copying?

Here we see the stark difference between a government dictated "progress" and capitalism which rewards individuals for success. As long as the CCP boys control the means of production and demand innovation, China will be playing catch up. If they ever figure out how to build a Dreamliner or a 777x those models will be yesterday's news. It's not that the Chinese people aren't bright enough, it's that they are stifled by the system. They have to move to the US to spread their wings.

The communist system has proven over and over to be a failed system but it's hard to get rid of when (1) the leaders love their control and (2) the people get brainwashed into it. Only some future new generations would be able to throw it off.

[impulse]

But make no mistake, like the 15th group of settlers who can simply follow the wagon ruts of the guys who blazed and defined the trail, they'll catch up in a fraction of the time it took to develop the technology. Then we'll see the innovation.

Catching up is not the same as innovating, even if that's possible. How do you catch up with someone who is continually forging ahead when you are copying?

Ask the Japanese...

[Publicus]

But make no mistake, like the 15th group of settlers who can simply follow the wagon ruts of the guys who blazed and defined the trail, they'll catch up in a fraction of the time it took to develop the technology. Then we'll see the innovation.

Catching up is not the same as innovating, even if that's possible. How do you catch up with someone who is continually forging ahead when you are copying?

Ask the Japanese...

The Japanese have democracy.

[Publicus]

US billionaire Wilbur Ross says innovation and creativity in the CCP China is still what it never used to be and never was.....

http://content.jwplatform.com/previews/qmI1ooOQ-jpm2kCrG

From the excellent nine minute interview, Ross expresses the new view acquired by global markets that the CCP Boyz are inept and not in control....

I think what then happened, the government seemed to have panicked and made lots and lots of very panicky moves. They first raised the margin requirement then they lowered it. They threw hundreds of billions of dollars into the market. Now they’re prosecuting people who spread negative stories about the market.

I think the difficulty with all that is, when a government shows signs of panic, particularly a government that historically has been able to control what happens pretty well, when that government shows panic it makes people more frightened, not less frightened.

I think what they’re trying to do is several things all at once and that makes it very challenging.

[LawrenceChee]

Yes ....I will introduce another thought into the mix

Did the western governments thought of the new Silk Road right now connecting China to Europe , did they believed an ice breaker can smack through the northern routes during the winter season , are they talking to Thailand again about the Kra Canal , did they believe they can innovated rail travel for 1.3 billion ....did they believe in building oil and transport pipes in the Myanmar coast to kunming

There are no doubts western innovation is at its forefront in some areas especially technology and marketing but the Chinese are not lagging behind ...you see that buzz in the Chinese market provided you are on the ground seeing the mix and being positive

Western environments are very conducive and indeed the education and culture promotes individualism and dynamic thinking which breeds the very best in technology innovations whom I have met many in many business and respect

Similarly broad minded western folks have interacted with their Asian and Chinese counterparts and learnt business practices and negotiations.

Asian thinking and culture favours groups and families and there is a good reasoning for that as well as many western folks in this forum would attest

The joys of the big families comes with it some challenges but there is no doubt in twilight years the Asian family model is stronger than the nursing homes of the west

Of course there are always some bitter keyboard warriors ...buts that life and the Chinese know it ...you can't please everyone so why bother to try ?

[Publicus]

Chinese need the rule of law, not the rule of arbitrary ideological and censoring communist party ethnic dictators.

Anyone not Chinese is a devil and a barbarian, still, even in the present time of extensive and intensive globalisation.

Not trusting anyone outside the family militates against the wholism others pretend to have and to praise. In very populous China it leads to a thousand mafias in each province. New York City literally had its infamous five families, whereas a place such as Shanghai has 500 families....at the least. The direct consequence is that there is no larger society as a whole; there are only hundreds --indeed, thousands-- of subsocieties and subcultures existing didactically, lawlessly.

In any dictatorship the nail that stands out gets hammered.