Nabbed at immi counter

[BEVUP]

Hello all

Come Thai every mth & this time pulled from entry counter (have done this for long time)

Was told i do more than 6 times a year

Immi officer asked me that i not know this was law (that require visa if more then 6 times)

So she ring wife (who is waiting at arrivals)

Tells her i need visa or no come in again

Am red flagged (since officer in booth called for her)

She wrote message in my passport as well

Is this all ligit ?

[elviajero]

No. There is no law limiting you to 6 entries. The flag is meant as a tool for IO's to interview you about why you come to Thailand so often because they think you might be working.

It would be good if you could post a copy of the message written in your passport.

This has happened before and if you enter again without a visa you should still be ok.

You cannot legally be denied for any amount of visa exempt entries.

[Colabamumbai]

Ah! but every Immigration officer and every Immigration office is a law unto itself in Thailand.

[Colabamumbai]

Why don't you have a marriage visa?

[jacksam]

The above two replies from very experienced members just demonstrates the crazy rules for staying or visiting Thailand . On one hand .there is no limit on visa exempt. On the other end of rainbow..why not get a visa. The OP like many is clearly not working. Is this all down to abuse by visa runners. In particular people working without work permits. In particular teachers.

[mxyzptlk]

No. There is no law limiting you to 6 entries. The flag is meant as a tool for IO's to interview you about why you come to Thailand so often because they think you might be working.

It would be good if you could post a copy of the message written in your passport.

This has happened before and if you enter again without a visa you should still be ok.

You cannot legally be denied for any amount of visa exempt entries.

Entry into the Kingdom is at the immigration official's discretion....which negates your last statement..regardless of the "legality"

[jacksam]

No. There is no law limiting you to 6 entries. The flag is meant as a tool for IO's to interview you about why you come to Thailand so often because they think you might be working.

It would be good if you could post a copy of the message written in your passport.

This has happened before and if you enter again without a visa you should still be ok.

You cannot legally be denied for any amount of visa exempt entries.

Entry into the Kingdom is at the immigration official's discretion....which negates your last statement..regardless of the "legality"

Does not negate discussion about a consistent and reasonable application of a refusal of entry. The fact is it should be on grounds that the IO suspects something. The obvious one is working. I put next ramble up only to demonstrate. Personally I travel everywhere in Asia Only stay in my place in bkk for few days at a time. Then fly out again. I would love to just keep flying in on stamps. Why can't I ?????. Clearly not working.

BTW I have an extension based on retirement.

[elviajero]

No. There is no law limiting you to 6 entries. The flag is meant as a tool for IO's to interview you about why you come to Thailand so often because they think you might be working.

It would be good if you could post a copy of the message written in your passport.

This has happened before and if you enter again without a visa you should still be ok.

You cannot legally be denied for any amount of visa exempt entries.

Entry into the Kingdom is at the immigration official's discretion....which negates your last statement..regardless of the "legality"

Discrestion only within the law. The law doesn't allow them to deny entry based on x previous entries. People being denied are being denied for suspicion of working, not the number of entries.

Thailands own regulations allow for multiple visa exempt entries. The abuse of this privilege by illegal workers is the reason why immigration are targeting visa exempt entries for extra scrutiny. It's not because of reasoning like yours.

[elviajero]

No. There is no law limiting you to 6 entries. The flag is meant as a tool for IO's to interview you about why you come to Thailand so often because they think you might be working.

It would be good if you could post a copy of the message written in your passport.

This has happened before and if you enter again without a visa you should still be ok.

You cannot legally be denied for any amount of visa exempt entries.

Entry into the Kingdom is at the immigration official's discretion....which negates your last statement..regardless of the "legality"

Discrestion only within the law. The law doesn't allow them to deny entry based on x previous entries. People being denied are being denied for suspicion of working, not the number of entries.

Thailands own regulations allow for multiple visa exempt entries. The abuse of this privilege by illegal workers is the reason why immigration are targeting visa exempt entries for extra scrutiny. It's not because of reasoning like yours.

Please provide a link to the "law" you are quoting from a government website...or are you making this up as you go along????

No problem.

Here is the link to the regulation change made in 2008 that cancelled the 90 day stay limit in any 180 days and introduced the 15 day limit when entering by a land border. The 15 day rule was later lifted for G7 countries. If you read the order dated November 2008 it confirms the "granted multiple entries".

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/doc/temporarystay/policy778-2551_en.pdf

[elviajero]

No. There is no law limiting you to 6 entries. The flag is meant as a tool for IO's to interview you about why you come to Thailand so often because they think you might be working.

It would be good if you could post a copy of the message written in your passport.

This has happened before and if you enter again without a visa you should still be ok.

You cannot legally be denied for any amount of visa exempt entries.

Entry into the Kingdom is at the immigration official's discretion....which negates your last statement..regardless of the "legality"

Does not negate discussion about a consistent and reasonable application of a refusal of entry. The fact is it should be on grounds that the IO suspects something. The obvious one is working. I put next ramble up only to demonstrate. Personally I travel everywhere in Asia Only stay in my place in bkk for few days at a time. Then fly out again. I would love to just keep flying in on stamps. Why can't I ?????. Clearly not working.

BTW I have an extension based on retirement.

You are absolutely correct....it does not negate discussion....and I never said that....what it SHOULD BE, COULD BE or MAYBE is irrelevant ... you can be denied entry for whatever reason by the I/O who processes you..even with a visa, you ARE NOT guaranteed entry into the Kingdom

You cannot be denied for "whatever reason". Only reasons listed in section 12 of the immigration act or ministerial regulation. A passport doesn't guarantee entry but as long as the person has a valid visa, or qualifies for visa exempt entry, and cannot be excluded under section 12 or regulation, they cannot be denied entry. If they are then the IO is acting without authority and the person being denied has the right to appeal.

Heres a link to the immigration act. Read section 12. If you find anywhere in that act giving an IO authority to make up law then please let me know.

Immigration Act

[CharlieH]

A number of petty squabbling posts and responses removed.

[jacksam]

Elviajero , yes you are of course correct. What I'm referring to is things like having money in pocket, so to speak. A thing that many mods etc have recommended. Other things like perhaps a flight ticket out of los. Maybe even work records from offshore job if that's your situation.

Fact is people have been refused entry into Thailand. Even with visa. Well that's what I read on thaivisa threads.

In the main it seems to be around suspicion of working in Thailand . So your saying an io cannot do that at their discretion. ? That was my reference to "whatever"

[oncearugge]

Elviajero , yes you are of course correct. What I'm referring to is things like having money in pocket, so to speak. A thing that many mods etc have recommended. Other things like perhaps a flight ticket out of los. Maybe even work records from offshore job if that's your situation.

Fact is people have been refused entry into Thailand. Even with visa. Well that's what I read on thaivisa threads.

In the main it seems to be around suspicion of working in Thailand . So your saying an io cannot do that at their discretion. ? That was my reference to "whatever"

One should not always believe what is written in TV threads.

Some members often only present one side of an issue and attempt to portray themselves as "innocent victims" which may not always be the case.

[ubonjoe]

Denial of entry can only be done under section 12 or the immigration act. Download Immigration Act B.E. 2522 English translation

The most common denials are for not having financial proof ans suspicion of working here illegally,

.

[BEVUP]

Why don't you have a marriage visa?

Never needed in 8 yrs unless staying longer than 30 days but have also extended visa exempt at Immi office for 60 day marriage & usually get visa from Loa incase i never get passport back in time

[Suradit69]

Ah! but every Immigration officer and every Immigration office is a law unto itself in Thailand.

Largely true for every country, whether embassies issuing visas or immigrations officers at borders/airports. Sometimes it's done for good reasons and often simply because of the race/nationality/appearance of the person wanting to enter. Immigrations officers of every country are expected to use their discretion and many do so using dubious criteria, racial profiling, personal prejudices, etc. It may not be PC or strictly legal, but it certainly happens on a regular basis.

Someone making frequent entries raises red flags and quite reasonable suspicions. No one denied him entry yet but he could legally be denied entry if they think he's working here or doing something else inappropriate. Visa exempt entries have been denied at the Cambodian borders regardless of the qualifications of the travelers affected and more generally there has been a lot of flak flying about immigrations allowing people in the country who ought to have been refused entry. Martial law may have been lifted in April, but the government still has left itself discretionary powers.

So it seems immigrations is blasted for allowing people in a little too easily and they're criticized for attempting to stem the flow. Damned if they do. Damned if they don't.

Why don't you have a marriage visa?

Because there is nothing called a "marriage visa??"

[BritTim]

Denial of entry can only be done under section 12 or the immigration act. Download Immigration Act B.E. 2522 English translation

The most common denials are for not having financial proof ans suspicion of working here illegally,

I am quite sure you are correct (as you pretty much invariably are) about the law. The problem is that

• I have grave doubts as to whether all the IOs (and even their supervisors) always know what is legal; and
• I think there are rogue IOs (sometimes entire offices/border points) where the law is ignored, and they can do this with impunity.

I am not saying that hordes of legitimate travelers are being denied entry, but I think there are enough reports to be highly skeptical of a claim that you have nothing to worry about if trying to enter legally.

[NanLaew]

Why don't you have a marriage visa?

Because there is nothing called a "marriage visa??"

Very true Mr Hairpslitter, but we all know what he means.

[ubonjoe]

Denial of entry can only be done under section 12 or the immigration act. Download Immigration Act B.E. 2522 English translation

The most common denials are for not having financial proof ans suspicion of working here illegally,

I am quite sure you are correct (as you pretty much invariably are) about the law. The problem is that

• I have grave doubts as to whether all the IOs (and even their supervisors) always know what is legal; and
• I think there are rogue IOs (sometimes entire offices/border points) where the law is ignored, and they can do this with impunity.

I am not saying that hordes of legitimate travelers are being denied entry, but I think there are enough reports to be highly skeptical of a claim that you have nothing to worry about if trying to enter legally.

If the procedures are followed for a denial of entry a stamp would be done in a persons passport stating the denial of of entry was done under section 12 with the clause numbers used shown.

At an airport they have to follow the procedures.

At a border crossing they may not always be followed because they will often just say no and the person will turnaround and go back to the country they came from. If a person was aware the rules they might be able to insist that the procedures be followed and the stamp done. There is a chance that they might allowed to enter the country because the officers did not truly have a valid reason for denial.

[Sviss Geez]

Entry into the Kingdom is at the immigration official's discretion....which negates your last statement..regardless of the "legality"

Discrestion only within the law. The law doesn't allow them to deny entry based on x previous entries. People being denied are being denied for suspicion of working, not the number of entries.

Thailands own regulations allow for multiple visa exempt entries. The abuse of this privilege by illegal workers is the reason why immigration are targeting visa exempt entries for extra scrutiny. It's not because of reasoning like yours.

Please provide a link to the "law" you are quoting from a government website...or are you making this up as you go along????

No problem.

Here is the link to the regulation change made in 2008 that cancelled the 90 day stay limit in any 180 days and introduced the 15 day limit when entering by a land border. The 15 day rule was later lifted for G7 countries. If you read the order dated November 2008 it confirms the "granted multiple entries".

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/doc/temporarystay/policy778-2551_en.pdf

You do have a small problem though, here's the first part of that order that you conveniently ignored...

"3. Any holder of a passport or a substitute passport whose nationality falls under the category for which the Minister permits a temporary stay for tourism purposes,"

The OP is obviously not a tourist, he has a wife here.

[Liquorice]

Discrestion only within the law. The law doesn't allow them to deny entry based on x previous entries. People being denied are being denied for suspicion of working, not the number of entries.

Thailands own regulations allow for multiple visa exempt entries. The abuse of this privilege by illegal workers is the reason why immigration are targeting visa exempt entries for extra scrutiny. It's not because of reasoning like yours.

Please provide a link to the "law" you are quoting from a government website...or are you making this up as you go along????

No problem.

Here is the link to the regulation change made in 2008 that cancelled the 90 day stay limit in any 180 days and introduced the 15 day limit when entering by a land border. The 15 day rule was later lifted for G7 countries. If you read the order dated November 2008 it confirms the "granted multiple entries".

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/doc/temporarystay/policy778-2551_en.pdf

You do have a small problem though, here's the first part of that order that you conveniently ignored...

"3. Any holder of a passport or a substitute passport whose nationality falls under the category for which the Minister permits a temporary stay for tourism purposes,"

The OP is obviously not a tourist, he has a wife here.

Then the OP would save himself a lot of problems if he got the correct Visa for his purpose of entry, rather than Visa exempts.

[Sviss Geez]

You cannot be denied for "whatever reason". Only reasons listed in section 12 of the immigration act or ministerial regulation. A passport doesn't guarantee entry but as long as the person has a valid visa, or qualifies for visa exempt entry, and cannot be excluded under section 12 or regulation, they cannot be denied entry. If they are then the IO is acting without authority and the person being denied has the right to appeal.

Heres a link to the immigration act. Read section 12. If you find anywhere in that act giving an IO authority to make up law then please let me know.

Immigration Act

Obviously IOs cannot "make up law" but they are the ones, "as competent officials", who decide who gets permission to stay in Thailand, as stated in the Act you link to.

"Section 34 :

aliens entering into the kingdom for a temporary stay may enter for the below listed activities;

1. Diplomatic or Consular Missions.

2. Performance of official duties.

3. Touring..." etc

Section 35 :

The Director General or the competent official deputized by the Director General shall have the authority to permit the alien, who entered to stay temporarily in the Kingdom under Section 34 , to remain in the Kingdom under any prescribed conditions...." etc

What this act says then is that the IO, as a competent official, does have the discretion to decide who stays in the Kingdom.

[ubonjoe]

That refers to people that are already in the country. The discussion is about entry to the country.

[elviajero]

Discrestion only within the law. The law doesn't allow them to deny entry based on x previous entries. People being denied are being denied for suspicion of working, not the number of entries.

Thailands own regulations allow for multiple visa exempt entries. The abuse of this privilege by illegal workers is the reason why immigration are targeting visa exempt entries for extra scrutiny. It's not because of reasoning like yours.

Please provide a link to the "law" you are quoting from a government website...or are you making this up as you go along????

No problem.

Here is the link to the regulation change made in 2008 that cancelled the 90 day stay limit in any 180 days and introduced the 15 day limit when entering by a land border. The 15 day rule was later lifted for G7 countries. If you read the order dated November 2008 it confirms the "granted multiple entries".

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/doc/temporarystay/policy778-2551_en.pdf

You do have a small problem though, here's the first part of that order that you conveniently ignored...

"3. Any holder of a passport or a substitute passport whose nationality falls under the category for which the Minister permits a temporary stay for tourism purposes,"

The OP is obviously not a tourist, he has a wife here.

"Obviously not a tourist"

Where does it define in law or regulation what a tourist is or more specifically that a tourist cannot get married or visit his wife?

If husbands were prohibited from visiting their wives when entering with a tourist visa then regulations/criteria would prohibit them from qualifying for a TR.

The claim made in the OP is that the IO said that it is law that after 6 visa exempt entries you need a visa. This is not true and cannot legally be enforced.

I would also point out that your logic would also preclude 1,000's of over 50's obtaining visas/extensions on the basis of retirement that are not retired and still working.

[elviajero]

You cannot be denied for "whatever reason". Only reasons listed in section 12 of the immigration act or ministerial regulation. A passport doesn't guarantee entry but as long as the person has a valid visa, or qualifies for visa exempt entry, and cannot be excluded under section 12 or regulation, they cannot be denied entry. If they are then the IO is acting without authority and the person being denied has the right to appeal.

Heres a link to the immigration act. Read section 12. If you find anywhere in that act giving an IO authority to make up law then please let me know.

Immigration Act

Obviously IOs cannot "make up law" but they are the ones, "as competent officials", who decide who gets permission to stay in Thailand, as stated in the Act you link to.

"Section 34 :

aliens entering into the kingdom for a temporary stay may enter for the below listed activities;

1. Diplomatic or Consular Missions.

2. Performance of official duties.

3. Touring..." etc

Section 35 :

The Director General or the competent official deputized by the Director General shall have the authority to permit the alien, who entered to stay temporarily in the Kingdom under Section 34 , to remain in the Kingdom under any prescribed conditions...." etc

What this act says then is that the IO, as a competent official, does have the discretion to decide who stays in the Kingdom.

Sorry. I must be missing something. What does any of this have to do with anything I've said?

[elviajero]

Elviajero , yes you are of course correct. What I'm referring to is things like having money in pocket, so to speak. A thing that many mods etc have recommended. Other things like perhaps a flight ticket out of los. Maybe even work records from offshore job if that's your situation.

Fact is people have been refused entry into Thailand. Even with visa. Well that's what I read on thaivisa threads.

In the main it seems to be around suspicion of working in Thailand . So your saying an io cannot do that at their discretion. ? That was my reference to "whatever"

IMO the immigration act doesn’t give authority to deny based on suspicion of working, and I’m pretty sure they would never use the word suspicion when writing the reason for denial in a passport. But in reality suspicion is all they’ve got because they have no proof unless the person has been under observation when in the country, or confesses to entering to take up employment/work.

The advice given to carry cash, and whenever possible to have an onward flight, is so the IO doesn’t have an easy excuse to lawfully deny entry to someone suspected of working. Having proof of income/employment abroad doesn’t prove someone isn’t also working when in Thailand, but IMO it makes it harder for the IO not to follow lawful procedure and helps to allay suspicion.

Yes people get denied, but as oncearugge points out we don’t always know the full story or history. IO’s are under orders to weed out people entering the country to take up prohibited activities, and although no doubt innocents get caught up, I’m pretty sure plenty that get denied deserve it.

IMO an individual IO has absolutely nothing to gain by denying entry to someone just for the hell of it, and those in charge of immigration have no reason to give authority to IO’s to unilaterally decide rules for who can and can’t enter.

[ubonjoe]

Elviajero , yes you are of course correct. What I'm referring to is things like having money in pocket, so to speak. A thing that many mods etc have recommended. Other things like perhaps a flight ticket out of los. Maybe even work records from offshore job if that's your situation.

Fact is people have been refused entry into Thailand. Even with visa. Well that's what I read on thaivisa threads.

In the main it seems to be around suspicion of working in Thailand . So your saying an io cannot do that at their discretion. ? That was my reference to "whatever"

IMO the immigration act doesn’t give authority to deny based on suspicion of working, and I’m pretty sure they would never use the word suspicion when writing the reason for denial in a passport. But in reality suspicion is all they’ve got because they have no proof unless the person has been under observation when in the country, or confesses to entering to take up employment/work.

The advice given to carry cash, and whenever possible to have an onward flight, is so the IO doesn’t have an easy excuse to lawfully deny entry to someone suspected of working. Having proof of income/employment abroad doesn’t prove someone isn’t also working when in Thailand, but IMO it makes it harder for the IO not to follow lawful procedure and helps to allay suspicion.

Yes people get denied, but as oncearugge points out we don’t always know the full story or history. IO’s are under orders to weed out people entering the country to take up prohibited activities, and although no doubt innocents get caught up, I’m pretty sure plenty that get denied deserve it.

IMO an individual IO has absolutely nothing to gain by denying entry to someone just for the hell of it, and those in charge of immigration have no reason to give authority to IO’s to unilaterally decide rules for who can and can’t enter.

They don't write the reason for a denial of entry. On the stamp it says the denial of entry was done under Section 12 and then the category number shown as (2) (3) as an example since the are they most common.

These are the most common categories.

"2. Having no appropriate means of living following entrance into the Kingdom.

3. Having entered into the Kingdom to take occupation as a laborer or to take employment by using physical without skills training or to work in violation of the Ministerial Regulations. "

I write suspicion of working to describe it due to the to way t is written. It would apply to somebody that has been staying here before and is attempting to enter the country again and has no proven means of support other than working here. Showing proof of income from outside the country would prevent this denial.

[elviajero]

IMO the immigration act doesn’t give authority to deny based on suspicion of working, and I’m pretty sure they would never use the word suspicion when writing the reason for denial in a passport. But in reality suspicion is all they’ve got because they have no proof unless the person has been under observation when in the country, or confesses to entering to take up employment/work.

The advice given to carry cash, and whenever possible to have an onward flight, is so the IO doesn’t have an easy excuse to lawfully deny entry to someone suspected of working. Having proof of income/employment abroad doesn’t prove someone isn’t also working when in Thailand, but IMO it makes it harder for the IO not to follow lawful procedure and helps to allay suspicion.

Yes people get denied, but as oncearugge points out we don’t always know the full story or history. IO’s are under orders to weed out people entering the country to take up prohibited activities, and although no doubt innocents get caught up, I’m pretty sure plenty that get denied deserve it.

IMO an individual IO has absolutely nothing to gain by denying entry to someone just for the hell of it, and those in charge of immigration have no reason to give authority to IO’s to unilaterally decide rules for who can and can’t enter.

They don't write the reason for a denial of entry. On the stamp it says the denial of entry was done under Section 12 and then the category number shown as (2) (3) as an example since the are they most common.

These are the most common categories.

"2. Having no appropriate means of living following entrance into the Kingdom.

3. Having entered into the Kingdom to take occupation as a laborer or to take employment by using physical without skills training or to work in violation of the Ministerial Regulations. "

I write suspicion of working to describe it due to the to way t is written. It would apply to somebody that has been staying here before and is attempting to enter the country again and has no proven means of support other than working here. Showing proof of income from outside the country would prevent this denial.

They do write the reason as well as the category.

Here is a denial stamp posted recently.

เข้ามาประกอบอาชีพรับจ้าง

It says; Come in to work take employment. (3)

[paz]

Come Thai every mth & this time pulled from entry counter (have done this for long time)

Was told i do more than 6 times a year

Immi officer asked me that i not know this was law (that require visa if more then 6 times)

So she ring wife (who is waiting at arrivals)

Tells her i need visa or no come in again

Am red flagged (since officer in booth called for her)

She wrote message in my passport as well

Is this all ligit ?

Despite that per written law (as explained above) you can do that, Thailand is taking progressive steps to do away with repeated visa exempt entries. They even introduced a "new" visa with which you will have to pay to have the same privileges - tourist multi-entry bt 5,000. I do not have have seen a report about people trying to enter again once given the red stamp, but I have no problem in believing they would be denied entry no matter what the appropriate section of law.

[BritTim]

Come Thai every mth & this time pulled from entry counter (have done this for long time)

Was told i do more than 6 times a year

Immi officer asked me that i not know this was law (that require visa if more then 6 times)

So she ring wife (who is waiting at arrivals)

Tells her i need visa or no come in again

Am red flagged (since officer in booth called for her)

She wrote message in my passport as well

Is this all ligit ?

Despite that per written law (as explained above) you can do that, Thailand is taking progressive steps to do away with repeated visa exempt entries. They even introduced a "new" visa with which you will have to pay to have the same privileges - tourist multi-entry bt 5,000. I do not have have seen a report about people trying to enter again once given the red stamp, but I have no problem in believing they would be denied entry no matter what the appropriate section of law.

Regardless of what immigration might decide, I would be extremely nervous of what the airline I was using would think about such a stamp. If I was the airline supervisor, I would be very reluctant to take the risk.