Can The Thai Courts Force a DNA Paternity Test

[dsfbrit]

A Thai girl has had the child of a farang that she lived with for a short while. He is definitely the father, but refuses to pay any maintenance to support the child. The baby is now 2 years old and he refuses to even meet his daughter.

This girl has just become a friend of my family and I don't like the way this guy is treating her at all. He is quite wealthy I believe and paying to support his daughter would be no real hardship for him.

On the one hand I think it is none of my business. On the other hand the girl was in our garden playing with her daughter the other day, she is broke and even buying Pampers at 500 baht a time is a major expense for her.

So I have decided to try and help them.

I have sent an email to my solicitor and may meet with him next week and start paying some money to get some advice from him and use the Thai courts if that seems to be an effective solution.

In the meantime, would anyone here have any good advice about how to go about resolving this problem - to get this guy to support his daughter financially.

My wife and I have had a lot of ideas including getting the girl to take the daughter to meet her father in the hope that by meeting her he will soften his attitude.

The trouble with our ideas, is that they could cause more harm than good.

So as a practical question, could we force him to have a DNA paternity test?

If he did not cooperate, would the courts be able to enforce a maintenance order in her favour anyway?

My initial research into this, leads me to believe the help for children born outside marriage in Thailand seem to have few rights under Thai law for paternal maintenance payments - is that correct?

Thanks for you help.

[NickJ]

Correct. Your wasting your time and money.However, When you speak to the lawyer and he tells you this , You may have found a fairly honest lawyer.....may have.

[dsfbrit]

Nickj - thanks for the quick response. I am not sure I disagree with you, but do you have any concrete evidence that this is the case, or do you just think like me that the Thai legal system in this area is not going to be very useful?

Surely the Thai courts must be useful in some areas of child issues regarding maintenance?

I get the impression that 5-10K a month would be a great help to this girl. I suspect he would not pay it every month anyway, but as he is a farang (like me) - he could surely be 'encouraged' to pay this if his right to stay in Thailand were threatened.

I was trying to keep this story simple, but maybe to add to this story slightly would be helpful. This farang actually lives in Europe for about 8 months of the year and comes here for his work. I believe that is the case. So he has to come here every year for his work for 4 months.

The girl has recently found out that he is married back in Europe and has a child there as well.

As I write this, I wish I wasn't getting involved at all - why am I doing this? It is a load of hassle for sure. The trouble is it really bugs me when people just dump kids like this. Ok - if you don't want anything to do with the child well that's sad, but he could at least help to give her a better life - he could afford it for sure.

The girl told us that he was the one who insisted on not wearing a condom and got her to switch to taking a pill she clearly did not fully understand!!

My thinking is that this farang really does not want a load of hassle with this girl and the Thai authorities and would settle on a reasonable child maintenance payment (it is his kid after all), just to make the problem go away.

I did also think though that his Thai daughter has a half brother back in Europe and I then began to wonder if his Thai daughter has any rights under EU law.

I could then see the whole 'can of worms' opening up before me and decided to stop thinking about it and just ask a simple question about paternity tests and see where that leads me.

So thanks for any help or advice you can offer.

[beano2274]

first things first "would you as a farang, in the same position as this guy, trust a Thai DNA test"?

Secondly he is under no obligation to do it, and a Thai court order in Europe/America is not worth the paper

it is written on, my personal opinion.

I would just leave it alone and forget it, you are risking getting too involved in something you shouldn't.

Ask yourself this one question - have you ever heard of a Thai guy with a Thai baby paying maintenance when he is not married to the mother? I haven't sorry.

[hanuman2543]

If the guy is a German, pm me. I can point you in the right direction

[jacksam]

No need to add to abo've posts. How many thai women have babies to thai men when they are young and the man or boy Justus walks. Sometimes even the fathers parents May take the baby on. Why do you think there is so many girls working in bars.

Sadly she has little recourse. Your concern is admirable but nothing you can do.

How many men in farang world avoid maintenance. And that's in countries can vet your income.

She has zero chance of funds from the a s s .

Don't waste your money on lawyer who will give you nice spin

[benalibina]

If you are willing to spent money on a sollicitor, why not spent that money on the 2 year old kid. You may as well think, together with your missus, about helping the woman to a job where she will be able to pay for all costs of living by herself. You can see too if she is not after free money but willing to make a life for herself.

As telling halve truths, being polite, is the norm in LOS, do you know for sure if she is telling a consistent story ? Has she ever mentioned...ohhh I wish my child would have a relationship with the father....? Guess not...poor poor child.

If you really wanna contine help beware that you are not gonna pay the price for it and do it always with the best interest of the child in mind.

Good luck.

[dsfbrit]

Benalibina, thanks for your encouraging post and you make some good points.

My wife and I have started helping her - that is how I know the cost of Pampers over here.

My wife tells me that last year we bought the child a birthday present, I don't often get involved with buying that sort of gift for my wife's family or friends, so I didn't know this girl nor her story until recently.

My wife tells me this girl has told her a consistent story over the last 2 years and seems honest enough. I think she has been working recently painting a building - she offered to help me paint my house (I am decorating at the moment) - so that makes me think she is not lazy or just seeking an easy life.

Still who knows, it is early days in my efforts to get her some help for her daughter, so I will find out what she is really like over the coming months.

The way I am tackling this issue is in two ways.

1. The legal side. Find out the legal options in both Thailand and the farang's home country. I will do this over the coming months.This child is not going to vanish overnight and option 2 below will take several months to work through, so there is no great urgency in this matter. I hope this issue can be resolved without resorting to legal action. Anybody who has been involved with the courts in any country will tell you how expensive and disappointing this can often be.

2. The personal side. This is the best route to solve this problem for sure. Try to get the farang to meet his daughter and hope he offers to help. Up until now he has not wanted to meet the girl, so if he does meet her they may bond and that could solve the problem over night. It is his daughter after all - he should feel some emotion - shouldn't he?

The main reason I am keen on a DNA test, and the point of this thread, is that in the first instance I want to know for sure if he is the father. She is going to meet with him in the New Year when he is next over here. If he won't offer to help his daughter, then the first thing I need to do is prove to myself that I am not wasting my time - a DNA test would prove that immediately. You can imagine my frustration if I were to spend the next year with all this and then find out the child is not his.

Yes I know, she could steal some of his hair or whatever and we could do a DNA test that way, but to be honest, I don't like playing silly underhand games like that.

I also think that if he were to receive a letter from a Thai lawyer saying he is required to give a DNA test, then he may realise this problem is not going to go away and he may then do the decent thing voluntarily.

[stoneyboy]

Why don't you give Jeremy Kyle a call,that's about as much good as you'll do.

DNA Test come on the man is under no obligation whatsoever to do anything.

Good luck.

[dsfbrit]

Jacksam, thanks for your reply. I agree with all that you say - apart from the idea that there is zero chance of this farang paying to maintain his daughter. He has not met the child yet and that could change his mind.

I think resolving this in the courts would be a very difficult thing to do. However, in the first instance the courts would be useful in proving his paternity and that would be something to build on.

A legal piece of paper saying he is the father would be nice to have, if not to pursue in the courts, to at least let this farang know the kid is definitely his and he has a moral duty to look after his daughter.

That is why I am keen to have a formal DNA test rather than just stealing his hair in an underhand way to perform an unofficial DNA test myself.

[dsfbrit]

stoneyboy, Jeremy Kyle has too many problems of his own at the moment with his wife leaving him, but thanks anyway for the useful idea.

What do you mean the man is under no obligation to do anything. There is certainly a moral obligation - I would think he would want to know if the very pretty white skinned girl standing in front of him giggling is his daughter or not - I mean if she were your daughter - wouldn't you want to know and then take care of her.

What better way to prove the relationship than through a DNA test.

Whether there is a legal obligation as well, is what I am asking in this thread. Do you know the law on this in Thailand?

[dsfbrit]

hanuman2543, I have sent you a pm - thanks

[stoneyboy]

Listen up.

Even people who have children with Thai women out of wedlock but are still long term partners and living together aren't granted paternal rights over their children,even that has to be petitioned in a Thai court of law or you have to legally be married or marry the mother to do so.

The odds of you organising this so called DNA test are stacked firmly against you,considering the guy isn't even in Thailand as well.

As another poster stated,help the girl by all means but don't bother with DNA tests or anything,personally if you came to me demanding I do one on the back of information of a Thai woman her word against mine,I would possibly punch you in the face and tell you where to go.

[dsfbrit]

first things first "would you as a farang, in the same position as this guy, trust a Thai DNA test"?

Secondly he is under no obligation to do it, and a Thai court order in Europe/America is not worth the paper

it is written on, my personal opinion.

I would just leave it alone and forget it, you are risking getting too involved in something you shouldn't.

Ask yourself this one question - have you ever heard of a Thai guy with a Thai baby paying maintenance when he is not married to the mother? I haven't sorry.

Beano, thanks for the reply.

As I replied in post 11 above, What do you mean the man is under no obligation to do anything. There is certainly a moral obligation - I would think he would want to know if the very pretty white skinned girl standing in front of him giggling is his daughter or not - I mean if she were your daughter - wouldn't you want to know and then take care of her.

What better way to prove the relationship than through a DNA test.

Whether there is a legal obligation as well, is what I am asking in this thread. Do you know the law on this in Thailand?

No I don't know of any Thais paying maintenance, but this guy is a wealthy farang so I don't really see the way Thais treat Thais is really the same at all.

[stoneyboy]

In Thailand, paternity rights are established either by marriage to the mother, through court action or government registration. In this regard, a man may be the biological father and have established a relationship with his child, but without having met the necessary legal requirements, may lack the legal rights to his child.

Paternity Law in Thailand

The rights and responsibilities of the father are stated in BOOK V: Family, Title II: Parent and Child of the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand. A child born to parents that are married is considered the legitimate child of the husband. A child born out of wedlock is, in general, considered the legitimate child of the mother. Accordingly, a biological mother’s legal rights are automatic but the father’s rights are not. A common misconception is that a father’s name on a birth certificate establishes paternal rights, but this claim is incorrect. Child support can be claimed between husband and wife, or parent and child, to be determined by a court.

Rights of a Foreign Father in Thailand

The law for foreign fathers is basically the same as it applies to paternity rights of a Thai father. In order to have rights to one’s child, the father must either be married to the mother or file for paternity rights pursuant to the legal process. One important issue with regard to foreign parents with Thai spouses is establishing citizenship rights of the child in the foreign spouse’s home country. Establishing citizenship is usually a combination of the foreign law and Thai law: each nation will have its own legal requirements.

Proving Paternity in Thailand

Establishing paternity outside of marriage involves a specific court and registration process in Thailand. For establishing rights of the foreign father, each Embassy will have its own procedures. Evidence required includes the submission of specific legal documents; DNA tests and Thailand court orders are also frequently required.

[dsfbrit]

stoneyboy, the guy is coming to Thailand again for 4 months in January. He needs to keep coming to Thailand for his work. Why would you think I personally would ever need to meet with this guy?

What makes you think this guy is of an age or height or demeanor to physically assault me if we were to meet?

Not all people in this world resort to violence you know.

I am interested in your thoughts on this subject, but on the specific point of this thread, do you know if the DNA test can be enforced if I need to go down that route.

[stoneyboy]

Judgment of the Court

Under Section 1555 of Thai CCC, in order for the court to grant legitimation of a child, the father is required to prove one of the following grounds:

The mother of the child was raped, abducted or illegally confined by the father of the child during the period when conception could have taken place;

The mother of the child was eloped or seduced by the father of the child during the period where conception could have taken place;

A document emanating from the father shows that he acknowledged the child as his own;

The father notified the birth of the child to the birth registrar, and his name as the father of the child appears on the birth certificate of the child, or such notification was made with the knowledge of the father;

Evidence proves that the father and the mother of the child openly cohabited during the period when conception could have taken place;

Where the father had sexual intercourse with the mother during the period when conception could have taken place, and there are grounds to believe that he or she is not the child of another man;

There are facts showing the relationship between the father and the child such as the fact that the father has provided the child’s education or maintenance, or that he has allowed the child to use his family name.

In addition, other evidence to support the application of legitimation of a child in Thailand could be the DNA test results, photographs of the father and mother showing that they were together while she was pregnant, witness statements confirming that the father has made it known publicly that the woman is pregnant with his child, and evidence proving that he has paid hospital bills or other expenses for the mother and the child.

Once the judgment of the legitimation of a child is pronounced, the father can register the legitimation of the child at the local district office where the child has domicile. Additionally, if the petition for the legitimation of a child includes the custody issue, the court will decide whether the father is suitable to exercise the custody rights over the child in the same case.

See also:

Child Legitimation FAQs

Child Support in Thailand

FAQs About Child Support

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[dsfbrit]

stoneyboy, thanks for that information. I actually have contacted his embassy in Bangkok to see what they have to say on this issue. I have also contacted a lawyers office in his own country for some feedback.

So discussing this on TV is just one of the ways I am trying to get my head around just what needs to be done.

As I have posted earlier, I am hopeful this can be resolved by him meeting his daughter and having some human affection for her and wanting to help because he is her father (yes - he should have some paternal feeling shouldn't he?).

Specifically in this thread though, I am not trying to legitimize his relationship with this girl, at this stage I am simply trying to prove via a DNA test that he is the father.

I am trying to find out IF it is becomes necessary, can I get the Thai courts to force this guy to give a DNA sample whilst he is here for 4 months in Thailand?

I can ask this of my lawyer, but I would be happier to hear from TV members before/if I go to meet with him as like many TV members who have lived in Thailand for many years, I have learnt that the advice from lawyers over here can sometimes be more geared towards them making their fees.

[Toknarok]

It may depend on the nationality of the farang as to whether anything can be done. I know a Danish man who abandoned his Thai wife and their 3 children and went back to Denmark. It took some time but eventually the Danish family court ordered him to pay maintenance for his children and garnishee d his wages. The farang in this case however did not dispute that the kids were his.

[dsfbrit]

Thanks Toknarok, that is interesting. Do you know how the Thai wife dealt with the Danish court ?

I mean by that, did she use a Thai lawyer in Thailand or contact a lawyer in Denmark directly.

I am thinking that contacting the court in his country directly may be the way to go if I have to pursue this through the courts.

[Toknarok]

Thanks Toknarok, that is interesting. Do you know how the Thai wife dealt with the Danish court ?

I mean by that, did she use a Thai lawyer in Thailand or contact a lawyer in Denmark directly.

I am thinking that contacting the court in his country directly may be the way to go if I have to pursue this through the courts.

She went to the Danish Embassy in Bangkok who put her in touch with the Danish Family Services. The bloke involved did not contest the parentage of the kids merely the amount of maintenance to be paid. This was resolved and the abandoned wife now gets money for the upkeep of the children.

[dsfbrit]

Toknarok, thanks very much for that information. That sounds like the route I could take as well even though they are not married.

[maprao]

One of the valuable lessons I have learnt in Thailand over the years is do not get involved in other peoples business.

Keep this quality when you are back in your own country. Here it can lead to many problems and violence, mainly against you, if you are not careful. This is just my opinion. You of course can continue to be a moral crusader but Thailand is full to the gunnels with unsupported Thai children. These are mainly being cared for by grandparents in rural areas and mothers working wherever they chose to do so.

Values in Thailand and social norms are not the same as the west.

[dsfbrit]

maprao, thanks for the feedback. Without getting too involved in an off-topic debate with you, I can only think that you must lead a very lonely isolated existence if you really live your life like that. I would hardly think me helping out one Thai girl makes me a 'moral crusader' and the feedback from Toknarok suggests that in certain circumstances my 'crusade' could actually be successful.

Maprao, here is an idea. Get up now from your keyboard, go to your local orphanage, take a few gifts and make a donation as well. You may be surprised just how good it makes you feel to help someone less fortunate than yourself.

[dsfbrit]

A quick thank you for your replies and also to those who pm'd me. It has helped me focus on what to do next.

I will let you know how it goes when I have some progress - or lack of it.

Thanks a lot

David

[maprao]

maprao, thanks for the feedback. Without getting too involved in an off-topic debate with you, I can only think that you must lead a very lonely isolated existence if you really live your life like that. I would hardly think me helping out one Thai girl makes me a 'moral crusader' and the feedback from Toknarok suggests that in certain circumstances my 'crusade' could actually be successful.

Maprao, here is an idea. Get up now from your keyboard, go to your local orphanage, take a few gifts and make a donation as well. You may be surprised just how good it makes you feel to help someone less fortunate than yourself.

I help out people less fortunate than myself all the time when I deem it appropriate. In this case it is my personal opinion that it is not, you are interfering in other people's business. Something that does not concern you in the slightest. You also only have her side of the story.

However let us agree to disagree on an anonymous forum and go our separate ways. Each to their own. All the best.

[Thongkorn]

Bottom line you can lead a Horse to water but you cannot make it Drink, Meaning you can spend money on taking this person to Court, and maybe wining your case, Maybe , but making him keep paying is another mater< or would you through good money after bad, and go to court again to try and make him pay

[aarontendo]

Has nothing to do with you, and the lad is doing what Thai men have done here often and for ages. Doesn't make it right, but it is what it is. No need to white knight.

[Thongkorn]

If it was easy or even possible to make a man pay for his child, why are Thai women not taking their exes to Court, Most Thai girls have babies to Thai men who are usualy absent, or maybe just while the wife's boyfriend is in town,

[tonray]

If it was easy or even possible to make a man pay for his child, why are Thai women not taking their exes to Court, Most Thai girls have babies to Thai men who are usualy absent, or maybe just while the wife's boyfriend is in town,

It is a culture thing also. Not viewed favorably in Thai society to confront a man publicly about his issues. Also many of these Thai fathers have about 3 baht a month left over after monthly expenses....hardly worth going after. Easier just to be done with them.