Bar Girl Psychology

[atyclb]

Anyway...if you like this lady and you both are a match just give it a trial,nothing to loose...

did already and was very lovely but over time given the factors i mentioned the personality is changing, and not for the better. tragic to have known the before and see the after progressing. thanks for your thoughts

[fang37]

My ambition is to be a Bar Girl.

Why?

Many farangs - esp smelly ol' farts to take care of me.

Sleep all day.

Manicure my nails whilst they are getting their rocks off.

Perfect!

[atyclb]

'Self loathe' is a western concept, christen concept, the east didn't get toxic effect of Queen Victoria. No self loathing if you are a human, you could have been reincarnated as a soi dog but you weren't so things are going alright.

thai psychiatrists most certainly have "self loathing" in their studies, and clinical practice with thai people.

so you know i am not simply pulling this stuff out of a hat let me share how and why i know about thai psychiatrist clinical practice.

i read a very interesting research paper done by a thai psychiatrist on bpd borderline personality disorder. i emailed him and we were in touch via email for a while so i know self loathing is absolutely in the framework of their clinical practice. to boot they even use the same criteria and billing diagnostic codes as usa doctors do.

[atyclb]

My ambition is to be a Bar Girl.

Why?

Many farangs - esp smelly ol' farts to take care of me.

Sleep all day.

Manicure my nails whilst they are getting their rocks off.

Perfect!

likely true for the majority.

[micmichd]

'Self loathe' is a western concept, christen concept, the east didn't get toxic effect of Queen Victoria. No self loathing if you are a human, you could have been reincarnated as a soi dog but you weren't so things are going alright.

thai psychiatrists most certainly have "self loathing" in their studies, and clinical practice with thai people.

so you know i am not simply pulling this stuff out of a hat let me share how and why i know about thai psychiatrist clinical practice.

i read a very interesting research paper done by a thai psychiatrist on bpd borderline personality disorder. i emailed him and we were in touch via email for a while so i know self loathing is absolutely in the framework of their clinical practice. to boot they even use the same criteria and billing diagnostic codes as usa doctors do.

Are there any statistical data on the self-perception of Thai bar girls?

[Mot Dang]

'Self loathe' is a western concept, christen concept, the east didn't get toxic effect of Queen Victoria. No self loathing if you are a human, you could have been reincarnated as a soi dog but you weren't so things are going alright.

thai psychiatrists most certainly have "self loathing" in their studies, and clinical practice with thai people.

so you know i am not simply pulling this stuff out of a hat let me share how and why i know about thai psychiatrist clinical practice.

i read a very interesting research paper done by a thai psychiatrist on bpd borderline personality disorder. i emailed him and we were in touch via email for a while so i know self loathing is absolutely in the framework of their clinical practice. to boot they even use the same criteria and billing diagnostic codes as usa doctors do.

This is off-topic but oh boy, Borderline Personality Disorder !

I have a very good friend who stayed with a BKK girl who was diagnosed with BPD. He lived a hard life for 7 years trying to understand (and control her). Bought all the books, but how wrong he was. It finally ended up in tears, on both sides. He was patient with her and when behaving herself she was lovely, but off her meds she was dangerous and that is why he left her. He became scared of her. She fitted in to most of the behavioral parameters for BPD, except she did not cause herself any self-harm, which was a blessing. Everything was black or white, no gray. Thus she couldn't compromise. No good for a relationship. There were a number of obsessions but I wont go into them. Our wives would not go near her (which in the beginning we, falang, could not understand. But when speaking in Thai, the girls knew something was wrong). So he began to lose friends.

You could say she was definitely self-loathing, constantly looking in mirrors, and preening herself. Plus in her darkest moments my friend say she was as frigid as an ice-berg, and away in some distant place. I have read that BPD in the Thai population is more skewed towards women, and that it can stem from a childhood emotional trauma/s. You see a lot of that in Thailand.

If you've seen the movie "Play Misty for Me", people can see how scary it can be.

[atyclb]

'Self loathe' is a western concept, christen concept, the east didn't get toxic effect of Queen Victoria. No self loathing if you are a human, you could have been reincarnated as a soi dog but you weren't so things are going alright.

thai psychiatrists most certainly have "self loathing" in their studies, and clinical practice with thai people.

so you know i am not simply pulling this stuff out of a hat let me share how and why i know about thai psychiatrist clinical practice.

i read a very interesting research paper done by a thai psychiatrist on bpd borderline personality disorder. i emailed him and we were in touch via email for a while so i know self loathing is absolutely in the framework of their clinical practice. to boot they even use the same criteria and billing diagnostic codes as usa doctors do.

Are there any statistical data on the self-perception of Thai bar girls?

School of Social Sciences

Department of Peace and Development Studies 2FU31E

Bachelor Thesis

Female Prostitution in Thailand

- looked upon a victim-agent framework

http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:558735/FULLTEXT01.pdf start from page 31

i believe there is data done by thai researchers also.

it seems to me as a mixed bag. likely some of them draw their self esteem from how much money they can get and care little about anything else. others dont feel good about it but it is the only option to make better money given their backgrounds. likely the ones with normal jobs just needing some extra cash on occasion do ok since they seem to choose less repulsive customers and are not bound to work in a place wearing a number. although supposedly they can refuse a customer, pressure from management dictates otherwise especially if are perceived as turning down opportunities.

[atyclb]

'Self loathe' is a western concept, christen concept, the east didn't get toxic effect of Queen Victoria. No self loathing if you are a human, you could have been reincarnated as a soi dog but you weren't so things are going alright.

thai psychiatrists most certainly have "self loathing" in their studies, and clinical practice with thai people.

so you know i am not simply pulling this stuff out of a hat let me share how and why i know about thai psychiatrist clinical practice.

i read a very interesting research paper done by a thai psychiatrist on bpd borderline personality disorder. i emailed him and we were in touch via email for a while so i know self loathing is absolutely in the framework of their clinical practice. to boot they even use the same criteria and billing diagnostic codes as usa doctors do.

This is off-topic but oh boy, Borderline Personality Disorder !

I have a very good friend who stayed with a BKK girl who was diagnosed with BPD. He lived a hard life for 7 years trying to understand (and control her). Bought all the books, but how wrong he was. It finally ended up in tears, on both sides. He was patient with her and when behaving herself she was lovely, but off her meds she was dangerous and that is why he left her. He became scared of her. She fitted in to most of the behavioral parameters for BPD, except she did not cause herself any self-harm, which was a blessing. Everything was black or white, no gray. Thus she couldn't compromise. No good for a relationship. There were a number of obsessions but I wont go into them. Our wives would not go near her (which in the beginning we, falang, could not understand. But when speaking in Thai, the girls knew something was wrong). So he began to lose friends.

You could say she was definitely self-loathing, constantly looking in mirrors, and preening herself. Plus in her darkest moments my friend say she was as frigid as an ice-berg, and away in some distant place. I have read that BPD in the Thai population is more skewed towards women, and that it can stem from a childhood emotional trauma/s. You see a lot of that in Thailand.

If you've seen the movie "Play Misty for Me", people can see how scary it can be.

i hope my reply to a somewhat off topic post re BPD will be allowed.

i have dated a couple of BPD gals. one was a nurse graduate of seoul national university. most times lovely but could explode any moment.

per the literature there are 2 types of BPD. in one the person inflicts harm and or self medication inward. the second type is harm outward towards others.

BPD is perhaps the most difficult disorder to treat and many docs refuse to treat them

[MaeJoMTB]

BPD is perhaps the most difficult disorder to treat and many docs refuse to treat them

Mainly because it's a BS excuse for women behaving badly.

If it were treatable by medication, almost every woman in the world would be taking it.

[atyclb]

I've never witnessed self loathing. Boredom perhaps, drunken stupor, jealousy. Never self loathing. I think you're projecting your moral ethos onto the girls.

Its nearly a "no brainer" when you put the pieces together. # stated feelings of inferiority due to non white skin color #fits of rage # disassociation # actual statements like "i am worthless" ## sex with otherwise repulsive males they'd never do for mutual attraction if not for the need for money # pushing away good people # medicated self loathing can = drunkenness # jealousy can also be a symptom # low self esteem is already present in a high % and also associated with self loathing

You feel better about yourself with your pious attitude, I can tell. You're not a nice person, atyclb.

What business is it of yours. Your grandstanding doesn't serve you well and, notwithstanding, there's far more to Thailand than Pattaya.

You're a troll with your continual demonisation of Thai ladies. You're reprehensible and predictable.

I think Atycib is actually talking about himself.

see post #82

what makes you think i am talking about myself?

[atyclb]

BPD is perhaps the most difficult disorder to treat and many docs refuse to treat them

Mainly because it's a BS excuse for women behaving badly.

If it were treatable by medication, almost every woman in the world would be taking it.

hmmm, and may i ask where you are licensed to practice medicine and surgery?

[chrisinth]

I'm sure that they do, but they will improvise, adapt and overcome quickly. They may be on their last choice, but they don't go into the game with their eyes shut.

It is human nature and the art of survival for some of them. Use the assets available and climb out of the hole. I used to know some girls in the very same predicament as you described in your example, and admired most of them...................

The Thai and especially Chinese race have had those Mistresses forever. It is accepted but not with a foreigner, all rich Men here are judged by their peers by the number of Girls they have waiting for them in prepaid Apartments. It is just another way of prostituting them selves but these girls are much younger and prettier then the Bar Girls.

Certainly not saying it doesn't happen, influential Thai with his mia noi (s), course it does.

And if i read your post 2 or 3 decades ago, i would agree 100% to your wording. But times have changed, and Thai men today are not judged by their peers for their stables.

Too much of a progressive middle class happening now. Some may prefer to ignore this fact, but the whole of Thailand (the Thailand that was) is suffering for it now, people who think they are doing good actually choking the very things that make tourism in Thailand attractive.

Besides, Facebook, Line & Twitter screwed that up for them long ago...........................

[AdamRich]

Why would one care? Does the person exhibit this same type of concern for the people at McDonald's that serve their hamburgers? You are a customer. Why waste brain cells worrying about a bar girl? I'm sure they are not wasting theirs worrying about you (worrying about your money maybe). You go and ride the ride and go home until the next time. You don't go to an amusement park and try to bring the rides back home with you. If you want someone to be concerned about then find a woman who is not a hooker.

[AdamRich]

Late 30s ??????????

You shopping in the wrong stores!

PS

Most bar girls started their p4p careers at 14 or 15 years old.

If you think they started in their late 30s, you're a bit gullible.

Nonsense. I have never seen or heard of a 15 yo bar girl. But I have met many >35 yo (who speak no English, and can barely read/write Thai) who started when their marriage/business went kaput.

p4p,

Starts in the local 'Thai only' brothels at 15+

Progresses to the 'Asian only' brothels at 20+ (maybe with a brief stint in Singapore/Malaysia)

Ends in 'farang bars' at age 30+

This is the normal progression and why you meet the bar girls aged 30+ who speak no English. Everything they tell you is a lie!

The idea that girls start suddenly selling themselves at 30+ due to a failed marriage or business is a lie, to deflect the white boys from thinking of the thousands of customers they previously had. Who would marry such a girl?

Note to the gullible,

in the brothels (first 15 years of their working lives) they will be servicing 5-8 customers per day.

The 35 year old, no English you met had probably already done 10,000+ tricks.

And besides that, I know girls in Pattaya that say they came there to work in the bars when they were as young as 15. They would hide in the back when the police came. Don't be so gullible. They don't just start p4p when they turn the magical age of 18. Same as I didn't start drinking when I reached the magical age of 21 in the USA.

[timendres]

IMHO a few years back it has been the only chance for a sufficient income but nowadays there so many ( decent paid) jobs available that nobody has to go this route...

Ha ha! You must be joking. I know a woman, 30-something, the former manager of an upscale club in BKK, who cannot land a job in Phuket in the hospitality industry. Say, at a country or golf club. Her English: splendid. Classy looking, well coiffed and sharp dresser. No one will hire her, preferring 21 year olds. There must be hundreds, thousands, like her.

Your closer to the truth than the decent paying job guy. He must be a naive newbie. Yes there are 1000's like her. I often worry about my g/f after I pass. Her only option seems to be to latch onto another old fart like me. Hope he is a kind person. See to many expat opportunists here all the time. She is a great person but a bit on the naive side.

Some examples...

The ladies in my kitchen( depends on position) between 20 000- 30 000

F&B same as above

Sales and marketing 30 000-50 000

Sales ladies from my major suppliers approximately 40 K

Even the ladies in housekeeping making 20 K a month...

My wife has her own shop and makes about 40K - 50 K

And don't tell me that a bar girl is earning much more considering she won't have customers every night and minus the loss of income when she has her menstruation...

The smart ones pull in anywhere from 60k to 120k. Easy. But they are few and far between.

[timendres]

So many guys on here who think they know what is going on in a Thai bar girls head. Impressive!

Especially considering a close associate, who is a Thai man, stated emphatically: "I don't understand Thai women".

[atyclb]

Late 30s ??????????

You shopping in the wrong stores!

PS

Most bar girls started their p4p careers at 14 or 15 years old.

If you think they started in their late 30s, you're a bit gullible.

Nonsense. I have never seen or heard of a 15 yo bar girl. But I have met many >35 yo (who speak no English, and can barely read/write Thai) who started when their marriage/business went kaput.

p4p,

Starts in the local 'Thai only' brothels at 15+

Progresses to the 'Asian only' brothels at 20+ (maybe with a brief stint in Singapore/Malaysia)

Ends in 'farang bars' at age 30+

This is the normal progression and why you meet the bar girls aged 30+ who speak no English. Everything they tell you is a lie!

The idea that girls start suddenly selling themselves at 30+ due to a failed marriage or business is a lie, to deflect the white boys from thinking of the thousands of customers they previously had. Who would marry such a girl?

Note to the gullible,

in the brothels (first 15 years of their working lives) they will be servicing 5-8 customers per day.

The 35 year old, no English you met had probably already done 10,000+ tricks.

while i dont doubt many cases like you described do indeed exist it is hard to imagine a girl after 15 years or more of that lifestyle; treated as a commodity, something bought and sold, would have much of a lovely spirit-personality left. that lifestyle is demoralizing, de-socializing, highly emotionally traumatic. the person i met was happy, full of life, personable, sweet, kind. and sexually very loving and affectionate too. in actuality i see her going downhill from working at the farang bar.

personally i tend to believe a failed marriage, family money crunch, business loss, or debt certainly can make a regular girl enter the beer bar business. how else could they given level of education try to repay such debt? theres no lack of university graduates that seek compensated dating also.

[atyclb]

So many guys on here who think they know what is going on in a Thai bar girls head. Impressive!

Especially considering a close associate, who is a Thai man, stated emphatically: "I don't understand Thai women".

very true. dating middle class or even upper class can frequently show erratic, bizarre behaviors

[PeVee1st]

They do "it" because it is better than being a slave at home with no freedom.

[atyclb]

For many ....decent looking ones......its a paid holiday....freedom....away from the responsabilities of the village/family.....

to me it seems unless they are lucky enough to not need to support relatives or repay some debt they'd still be equally obliged to work for the family and or leeching relatives.

does being a bargirl mean freedom?

[MaeJoMTB]

For many ....decent looking ones......its a paid holiday....freedom....away from the responsabilities of the village/family.....

to me it seems unless they are lucky enough to not need to support relatives or repay some debt they'd still be equally obliged to work for the family and or leeching relatives.

does being a bargirl mean freedom?

Does spending your childhood going to school and working to pass exams, then University, followed by working 9-5 in an office (car plant/coal mine/factory/steel mill) 5 or 6 days a week for the next 20-40 years to support a woman who doesn't love you and rarely wants to have sex with you who then divorces you and takes your home, children, savings and pension mean freedom?

Because at least 40% of men in the western world appear to think that's freedom.

That bar job doesn't sound too bad now!

Edited October 5, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[Fabricus]

For many ....decent looking ones......its a paid holiday....freedom....away from the responsabilities of the village/family.....

to me it seems unless they are lucky enough to not need to support relatives or repay some debt they'd still be equally obliged to work for the family and or leeching relatives.

does being a bargirl mean freedom?

You obviously like this girl a lot. Why don't you offer to help with her debts?

[atyclb]

My ambition is to be a Bar Girl.

Why?

Many farangs - esp smelly ol' farts to take care of me.

Sleep all day.

Manicure my nails whilst they are getting their rocks off.

Perfect!

now thats one great analogy, us as young lads leading the life of leisure, just need to eat grandmothers smelly pxxsey and french kiss her when asked or eat other things. nice life. add me to the queue

[atyclb]

For many ....decent looking ones......its a paid holiday....freedom....away from the responsabilities of the village/family.....

to me it seems unless they are lucky enough to not need to support relatives or repay some debt they'd still be equally obliged to work for the family and or leeching relatives.

does being a bargirl mean freedom?

Does spending your childhood going to school and working to pass exams, then University, followed by working 9-5 in an office (car plant/coal mine/factory/steel mill) 5 or 6 days a week for the next 20-40 years to support a woman who doesn't love you and rarely wants to have sex with you who then divorces you and takes your home, children, savings and pension mean freedom?

Because at least 40% of men in the western world appear to think that's freedom.

That bar job doesn't sound too bad now!

# prenuptial agreement

# a woman that has comparable earning capacity

# maybe even a gal that loves you

your talking about disgruntled men in western marriages then comparing that to bar girl happiness in the workplace.

apples and oranges

are you the doctor that said all women have borderline personality disorder and it is a BS excuse for bad behaviour?

[MaeJoMTB]

For many ....decent looking ones......its a paid holiday....freedom....away from the responsabilities of the village/family.....

to me it seems unless they are lucky enough to not need to support relatives or repay some debt they'd still be equally obliged to work for the family and or leeching relatives.

does being a bargirl mean freedom?

Does spending your childhood going to school and working to pass exams, then University, followed by working 9-5 in an office (car plant/coal mine/factory/steel mill) 5 or 6 days a week for the next 20-40 years to support a woman who doesn't love you and rarely wants to have sex with you who then divorces you and takes your home, children, savings and pension mean freedom?

Because at least 40% of men in the western world appear to think that's freedom.

That bar job doesn't sound too bad now!

# prenuptial agreement

# a woman that has comparable earning capacity

# maybe even a gal that loves you

your talking about disgruntled men in western marriages then comparing that to bar girl happiness in the workplace.

apples and oranges

are you the doctor that said all women have borderline personality disorder and it is a BS excuse for bad behaviour?

And yet you're here, fishing in the same pond as us!

[atyclb]

MAEJOMTB

"And yet you're here, fishing in the same pond as us!"

why not focus on responding to the content of my post rather than a fishing analogy?

id say the term comic relief is more appropriate. i try not to take the entertainment scene too seriously as it is just that, a business to entertain. it very rare indeed to run into a gal that brings mutual chemistry into the picture and i absolutely do not chase-search for it.

[atyclb]

For many ....decent looking ones......its a paid holiday....freedom....away from the responsabilities of the village/family.....

to me it seems unless they are lucky enough to not need to support relatives or repay some debt they'd still be equally obliged to work for the family and or leeching relatives.

does being a bargirl mean freedom?

You obviously like this girl a lot. Why don't you offer to help with her debts?

i did but response= adamantly refused. stating "i like you"

imagine that, integrity. at least for the time being. that environment and the booze and lack of sleep. at this point i have observed signs of rapid mood swings, emotional volatility. my common sense says she has tremendous stress. theres also an unemployed able bodied sister in her 20's using her like an atm. i have tried to pay the bar fine so she can simply sleep a few hours but she got angry. again because supposedly she considers me a real friend and refuses to let me pay. her debt anyway is in the neighborhood of 10K us dollars. 2-3 months to pay it i am told. she has become literally a 24/7 machine. i am laying low now after she got very mad about wanting to pay the bar fine. she was visibly drunk and even another girl colleague told her she's drunk and exhausted advised her to accept the offer and go sleep. first i believe she wont take my money and perhaps she is hoping to get valuable customers until closing time.

6 weeks ago i played sek loso songs on guitar and she sang. now she looks like a zombie. hopefully she will find the way out of the dilemma. i can speak, read and write thai, and imo this is a genuinely nice person.

Edited October 5, 2015 by atyclb

[fang37]

If I was a bar girl, I would deal with very rich ol' farts exclusively.

Little work involved.

Play a little chess?

Iron their clothes.

"Sweet talk" far too much.

"Up to you, big boy - give it to me & give it very hard - I luv it, your way."

[benalibina]

For many ....decent looking ones......its a paid holiday....freedom....away from the responsabilities of the village/family.....

to me it seems unless they are lucky enough to not need to support relatives or repay some debt they'd still be equally obliged to work for the family and or leeching relatives.

does being a bargirl mean freedom?

You obviously like this girl a lot. Why don't you offer to help with her debts?

i did but response= adamantly refused. stating "i like you"

imagine that, integrity. at least for the time being. that environment and the booze and lack of sleep. at this point i have observed signs of rapid mood swings, emotional volatility. my common sense says she has tremendous stress. theres also an unemployed able bodied sister in her 20's using her like an atm. i have tried to pay the bar fine so she can simply sleep a few hours but she got angry. again because supposedly she considers me a real friend and refuses to let me pay. her debt anyway is in the neighborhood of 10K us dollars. 2-3 months to pay it i am told. she has become literally a 24/7 machine. i am laying low now after she got very mad about wanting to pay the bar fine. she was visibly drunk and even another girl colleague told her she's drunk and exhausted advised her to accept the offer and go sleep. first i believe she wont take my money and perhaps she is hoping to get valuable customers until closing time.

6 weeks ago i played sek loso songs on guitar and she sang. now she looks like a zombie. hopefully she will find the way out of the dilemma. i can speak, read and write thai, and imo this is a genuinely nice person.

Okay....she likes you...you like her. You offered to help in clearing her debt. She refused. She has an enabler around her using the girl as an ATM. Let her deal with clearing the debt 1st. If that has been done and she cant go back to her old, nice, way, as you stated, let it go. If however she finished with her chores and gets a grip on "normal" life again, all your observations could be correct. Nice girl. Your multiple analysis's on this type of woman ....ah well you get it. You can only help someone who wants to be helped. Good luck as you seem to be a nice guy.

[micmichd]

For many ....decent looking ones......its a paid holiday....freedom....away from the responsabilities of the village/family.....

to me it seems unless they are lucky enough to not need to support relatives or repay some debt they'd still be equally obliged to work for the family and or leeching relatives.

does being a bargirl mean freedom?

You obviously like this girl a lot. Why don't you offer to help with her debts?

i did but response= adamantly refused. stating "i like you"

imagine that, integrity. at least for the time being. that environment and the booze and lack of sleep. at this point i have observed signs of rapid mood swings, emotional volatility. my common sense says she has tremendous stress. theres also an unemployed able bodied sister in her 20's using her like an atm. i have tried to pay the bar fine so she can simply sleep a few hours but she got angry. again because supposedly she considers me a real friend and refuses to let me pay. her debt anyway is in the neighborhood of 10K us dollars. 2-3 months to pay it i am told. she has become literally a 24/7 machine. i am laying low now after she got very mad about wanting to pay the bar fine. she was visibly drunk and even another girl colleague told her she's drunk and exhausted advised her to accept the offer and go sleep. first i believe she wont take my money and perhaps she is hoping to get valuable customers until closing time.

6 weeks ago i played sek loso songs on guitar and she sang. now she looks like a zombie. hopefully she will find the way out of the dilemma. i can speak, read and write thai, and imo this is a genuinely nice person.

That's the pride of the working class.

Maybe she would accept a birthday present?