Would like some help please for 3rd app for 1st UK standard visa for GF

[isnakebite]

Firstly in advance, I thank you for your time reading this. I am worried about parts of our new application and ask for some thoughts and advice. In December my girlfriend and I intend to submit her 3^rd application a few days after I land in Bangkok.

Significantly this will be my 4^th trip since meeting her (inclusive of the trip where I met her) and 2^nd since her unsuccessful 2^nd application. I feel compelled to refer to the dates of previous 3 trips and this trip in my application letter and provide a Thai number for them to call me whilst I’m on holiday. At the moment I haven’t made any plans other than buy the ticket. Historically the hotels I book will only show my name in the booking. I can staple a copy of my ticket to the application letter and a photocopy of the passport with my latest date entry. There will also be some social media communication between us in the application about my 4^th trip but thinking in their mind-set this application shows no guarantee that we are in fact meeting up for the 4^th time.

Other than what I've suggested above, what else can I do. Am I worrying too much?

For this application I’ve decided to use an A4 ring binder, with a contents page and section dividers. Mainly to improve the organisation and ease of who is reviewing her application but also because last time they claimed they could not find the letter from her old boss agreeing to her leaving for a holiday and confirming employment upon her return.

Using a ring binder seems the right thing to do, but is it overkill?

In the 1^st application we stated the truth that she was unemployed, which they picked up on and made reference to her economic ties. Her situation changed and was employed when we made the 2^nd application.

Between the 2^nd and 3rd applications my girlfriend has relocated to a different city and got a new job in a salon. Like her last job in the factory she is being paid in cash. Her new boss is also a friend and has agreed to let her take a holiday. I’ve explained and repeated to her that she needs to deposit her earnings into her bank account to highlight regular income other than that which I provide. I won’t know if she has actually done this until I’ve seen her bank statement after I’ve arrived.

Effectively the only proof of employment she has since April 2015 will be two letters from her bosses agreeing to let her have a holiday and reemployment when she returns.

In the 3^rd application we will be referring to her current employer (since August). Should I only include the letter from her current employer? Or do I include the letter from her previous boss and make reference to it to provide vague proof she has been in employment since April 2015?

Thank you again for your time.

[theoldgit]

It would be helpful if you could post the refusal notices, certainly the last one and the first if it's available, that would give some idea as to the ECO's reasoning for refusing entry clearance.

Did she fully address the reasons for refusal in her second application, I'm assuming they doubted that she was likely to return to Thailand because of her lack of financial standing and employment, how long had she been employed when she made her second application, how long was there between the two applications?

How long have you two known each other when she made her applications, how long did she intend staying in the UK on her holiday?

We really need a bit more information before we can advise on a way forward.

[jacksam]

Theo is correct. OP, what comes across is UK immigration same as Australia and most other countries want her to show "compelling reason the return" to Thailand. A job is only one reason. Many applications are successful where the applicant is unemployed. You haven't actually stated how long you have known your tgf. Where you met etc etc. Proof of any financial support provided by you.

You mention asking her to put some money into a bank account. I imagine most thai don't have much scope to do this. While money in bank strictly is not a requirement as you are her sponsor, it is still very good to have.

How long she staying?

What is your financial situation ,in the sense, can you demonstrate funds and accommodation to support her.

What are your plans while she is visiting you. Travel? Did you provide itinerary. These points are tip of iceberg.

Don't bind your docs.

You need to address the reasons for denial and in addition make your application very thorough.

Edited October 4, 2015 by jacksam

[isnakebite]

You both raise some valid points and I appreciate your concerns. I have saved funds purposely for her visit, am fully employed, own my own home and have proof of my regular financial support. I refrained from posting both previous rejection letters as we addressed the reasons in the 1^st but generated some new ones in the 2^nd and I didn’t want to waste people’s time on those other than with the queries I posted.

For example, in the letters they always refer to what they take account of. In the 1^st rejection they stated “your passport and travel history.” Even though we had provided proof of travelling together by air within Thailand. In the 2^nd application I addressed this in my letter that she had no reason nor finances to travel abroad and would prefer to travel with someone she knows, trusts and loves, namely me. In the 2^nd rejection this became “your immigration history.” To address this, when we met again in August, we visited Singapore for 3 days.

We met September 2014, then December. She got her passport in October. 1^st application was made in March 2015, 2^nd in June.

As I wrote on another topic, 1^st application was assisted by a friend of a friend who wrongfully suggested we should apply for 2 months because it is easier to overstay. 2^nd I applied on her behalf online and we applied for 5, my choice as I wanted to spend as much time as possible with her. Nothing was mentioned in the rejections regarding the difference. This time she wants to apply for 3 as she believes it will be more acceptable towards a positive decision.

The validity of our relationship has never been questioned. You are correct they doubted that she would return because of lack of financial standing and employment. I have had to explain to her that the fact that she has a daughter does not guarantee to them she will return. 2^nd rejection partly because she had only been employed for 1 month. We failed to mention just exactly what the relationship was between her boss and her to allow her to leave so soon, but of course they claim they could not find the letter. It was a small factory operation. Now she is in a salon, that has work uniforms, a regularly updated facebook page, presumably company headed paper and she herself has said that she wants to show that she has been employed for 4 months before she applies again.

I can understand the benefits of a 3^rd application after I’ve made my 4^th trip to include proof of it but it makes sense to utilise the fact that I’m there.

[Rob180]

Your post refers a lot to your gfs jobs and having to have money in the bank (which isn't a condition of a visa being issued). It won't matter how many jobs she has or how much money is in the bank if you fail to provide enough evidence that your relationship is 'genuine and subsisting'. Over a few months or more you should have acquired enough evidence to do this. What I would believe is good enough evidence for immigration would be:

1. Copies of your phone bills showing regular contact and calls at least 2 or 3 times per week, consistently over a few months. Calls to Thailand from the UK nowadays through calling cards and Skype To Go are so cheap that I believe immigration.will expect applications to show this level of contact.

2. Skype snapshots on different days, ie 1 every week or 2 are good evidence of your contact as they show the person's face and the date.

3. Photos of you both together when you were in Thailand which appear to have been taken on different trips. IE: Both of you in different places in Thailand and wearing different clothes and possibly maybe even having different hairstyles, which shows the photos were most probably taken in different months.

4. At least some photos taken with her family at their home , which is a good indicator the relationship is genuine. If you are considering taking your girlfriend 7000 miles away from her country, I'm sure immigration would find it rather odd if you hadn't bothered meeting her family, which could cause them to doubt your motives.

5. Money transfers .It is stating the very obvious that this is a very good indicator of whether a relationship is genuine or not. If you have never sent money, this will create doubts in immigration, because while they are well aware not everyone can send 20,000 baht a month, they are also aware that someone who is sponsoring someone to come to UK for 6 months should be able to send some amount of money every month, even if it's only 2000b a month, as it shows commitment to the relationship as nobody sends money to someone they don't care about. The amount you send is not important, it's the impression of sending something regularly that immigration will take note of. I'm not saying your application won't succeed if there's no evidence of financial support but I believe it would help significantly to prove your relationship is genuine and subsisting.

If you provide all of the above evidence to the Embassy your application should be successful unless there are other issues you haven't mentioned?

Edited October 4, 2015 by Rob180

[nickboyuk]

'As I wrote on another topic, 1^st application was assisted by a friend of a friend who wrongfully suggested we should apply for 2 months because it is easier to overstay. 2^nd I applied on her behalf online and we applied for 5, my choice as I wanted to spend as much time as possible with her. Nothing was mentioned in the rejections regarding the difference. This time she wants to apply for 3 as she believes it will be more acceptable towards a positive decision.'

I would advise her first visit should be shorter, a month or so. Also the reason for return is always another reason for failure. You can have all the evidence in the world of your relationship, but have a good reason to return....

[isnakebite]

Thanks Rob, all 6 points covered, I visited her family last December.

They questioned her employment and reason to leave after 1 month, the latter I hope will be fine after 4 months. How I provide proof of her employment, other than the letter and the cash payments I don't know. She's has to wait a whlie before she gets a work uniform.

They questioned the money genuinely available to her, as she accidenttlally submitted 2 bank account statements, the latest at the time and the one submitted in her 1st application assisted by "the friend of the friend",which I didn't know about and apparently had a fair amount of money in it. I plan to write in my letter that it was an accident and that we have provided the correct one, which shows her regular deposit of pay from work and my contributions.

Edited October 4, 2015 by isnakebite

[isnakebite]

I would advise her first visit should be shorter, a month or so. Also the reason for return is always another reason for failure. You can have all the evidence in the world of your relationship, but have a good reason to return....

I appreciate the response but you weren't to know but I plan to accompany her when she arrives, that's atleast £1K in airfares, which isn't exactly cheap for me and I wouldn't pay that for a 1 month visit. Plus I work Monday to Friday and have about 3-4 months worth of weekend activities planned That's why I really want 5 months but she wants 3 and I'd never hear the end of it if we never tried for 3.

[beano2274]

Can she take 3 months off work?

[isnakebite]

Can she take 3 months off work?

Yes definitely. Her boss is an old friend. She had talked about wanting to work in a Salon before. Penultimate day of my trip we had a chat and she said she wanted to change jobs. I told her to call her friend. 3 days after I departed she had relocated, moved in with another friend and started her new job.

Edited October 4, 2015 by isnakebite

[jacksam]

OP......You really seem a genuine sort of bloke. One thing (to me anyway) seems to be your trying to approach the application as if you were in an interview and trying to explain this and that. In actual fact the application needs to be clear and precise. There has been a lot of focus on her current job. In your tgf case I don't think this is a "compelling reason to return". In fact perhaps means very little. Especially when you start talking about the boss is a good friend.

You mention many weekends planned over her visit. Did you outline detailed itinerary.

While money in HER bank is , as pointed out not a requirement, that's not completely true. I'm assuming your making the application without plane tickets purchased. It helps if she can demonstrate ability to return to Thai if say you had a falling out.

How long you would like her to stay is your business. However a lot of farang think that their tgf will just love farang world they would wish to stay for long as possible.Wrong! She will miss Thailand like you won't believe. More so because you work all week.

Good luck. Mean that. Don't want to sound negative but can see why she has had 2 rejections. Think for success you need to address compelling reason to return. Family ties including daughters birth certificate. Anything she May own. Pictures not just of you together but with her family and some traditional thai culture pics etc. List goes on and on

Edited October 4, 2015 by jacksam

[jacksam]

OP, there is a current thread in this forum where a members thai gf obtained her visa to UK. They had know her for only 8 months. He has been good enough to outline fully his application. Have a read. Very well organized

[bobrussell]

I am more than slightly concerned that you are overcomplicating things and in doing so missing some of the key points!

The relationship does not seem to be an issue, affordability might be. Have you demonstrated the ability of the applicant to afford the visit? If you are paying for it, have you demonstrated it is affordable for you to do so? If you are offering accommodation have you provided information regarding this, including landlord's permission if appropriate?

Employment is an important factor in reasons to return but not the only one! Does your girlfriend have assets? Provide details of anything that builds up a picture that she is likely to return within the terms of her visa.

It is perfectly possible to get a visa in her circumstances but it does require a very sound application to prevent a third rejection.

Finally don't use a ring binder - VFS are likely to empty the contents out to send to the embassy and there is no guarantee that it will arrive in the correct order. Number and index all the pages and use a document file instead.

[isnakebite]

There has been a lot of focus on her current job. In your tgf case I don't think this is a "compelling reason to return". In fact perhaps means very little. Especially when you start talking about the boss is a good friend.

You mention many weekends planned over her visit. Did you outline detailed itinerary.

I'm assuming your making the application without plane tickets purchased. It helps if she can demonstrate ability to return to Thai if say you had a falling out.

She will miss Thailand like you won't believe. More so because you work all week.

Good luck. Mean that. Don't want to sound negative but can see why she has had 2 rejections. Think for success you need to address compelling reason to return. Family ties including daughters birth certificate. Anything she May own. Pictures not just of you together but with her family and some traditional thai culture pics etc. List goes on and on

Thank you for the comments and response. The compelling reason for her to return I believe would be that she redistributes her finances to her parents to take car of her daughter, she uses the post office and we have no receipts of the payments she made.

I've never detailed an itinerary in either of my previous application letters. Only vaguely mentioning meeting members of my family. In the section of the application of "What You Plan To Do", in general I wrote "visit family in England, his mother will show me some things that ladies in England do, he has friends in Scotland and we will travel to visit them and take days of work to tour parts of the UK together." I don't know what was entered in the first application. Are you suggesting I include a more detailed itinerary in my application letter as well?

I am wary of her missing Thailand, she is not the adventurous type and has admitted that she will happily stay at home during weekdays. That is up to her. This might be ok for the first trip, but if it all goes well and she returns for longer periods. I'm not sure how she will cope if she's stays at home until she can legally gain employment. I can worry about that later but this is why I was keen for a longer period of stay first time around.

All the items were included in the first two applications, part of the 1st rejection was it claimed that she had "no strong family ties."

If she actually paid money to her parents by direct debit, things would be a lot easier.

[isnakebite]

I am more than slightly concerned that you are overcomplicating things and in doing so missing some of the key points!

The relationship does not seem to be an issue, affordability might be. Have you demonstrated the ability of the applicant to afford the visit? If you are paying for it, have you demonstrated it is affordable for you to do so? If you are offering accommodation have you provided information regarding this, including landlord's permission if appropriate?

Employment is an important factor in reasons to return but not the only one! Does your girlfriend have assets? Provide details of anything that builds up a picture that she is likely to return within the terms of her visa.

It is perfectly possible to get a visa in her circumstances but it does require a very sound application to prevent a third rejection.

Finally don't use a ring binder - VFS are likely to empty the contents out to send to the embassy and there is no guarantee that it will arrive in the correct order. Number and index all the pages and use a document file instead.

Thanks for the response, I stated in my 2nd application letter that I would pay for the trip and still provide money for her so she can redistribute to her parents whilst staying with me as well as proof of employment, salary pay slips, mortgage and bank statements etc. She has no assets. Thanks for the pointer on the ring binder, something to think about.

[Rob180]

Thanks Rob, all 6 points covered, I visited her family last December.

They questioned her employment and reason to leave after 1 month, the latter I hope will be fine after 4 months. How I provide proof of her employment, other than the letter and the cash payments I don't know. She's has to wait a whlie before she gets a work uniform.

They questioned the money genuinely available to her, as she accidenttlally submitted 2 bank account statements, the latest at the time and the one submitted in her 1st application assisted by "the friend of the friend",which I didn't know about and apparently had a fair amount of money in it. I plan to write in my letter that it was an accident and that we have provided the correct one, which shows her regular deposit of pay from work and my contributions.

Hi, I'm a bit confused about this money in the bank thing, as I don't think that's a condition of the visa, as you are sponsoring her. My own circumstances related to a spouse visa not a visit visa, but I have a friend who applied for a tourist/visit visa for his girlfriend last year. He submitted similar evidence to what I described above. I definitely don't recall him having to put money in her bank to submit the application. He also didn't have any problems. It was approved in about 3 weeks. I'm not sure why they seem to be finding 'problems' with your g/f's application, but there seems to be something. Seems a bit strange if you've submitted plenty evidence.

[isnakebite]

Thanks Rob, all 6 points covered, I visited her family last December.

They questioned her employment and reason to leave after 1 month, the latter I hope will be fine after 4 months. How I provide proof of her employment, other than the letter and the cash payments I don't know. She's has to wait a whlie before she gets a work uniform.

They questioned the money genuinely available to her, as she accidenttlally submitted 2 bank account statements, the latest at the time and the one submitted in her 1st application assisted by "the friend of the friend",which I didn't know about and apparently had a fair amount of money in it. I plan to write in my letter that it was an accident and that we have provided the correct one, which shows her regular deposit of pay from work and my contributions.

Hi, I'm a bit confused about this money in the bank thing, as I don't think that's a condition of the visa, as you are sponsoring her. My own circumstances related to a spouse visa not a visit visa, but I have a friend who applied for a tourist/visit visa for his girlfriend last year. He submitted similar evidence to what I described above. I definitely don't recall him having to put money in her bank to submit the application. He also didn't have any problems. It was approved in about 3 weeks. I'm not sure why they seem to be finding 'problems' with your g/f's application, but there seems to be something. Seems a bit strange if you've submitted plenty evidence.

Apologies, did not mean to confuse. Two of the reasons of the 1st rejection it was claimed that she had no "strong family and economic ties". 2nd application she declared she had a job and I responded to the both queries.

Seemingly no relating further queries however in the 2nd application by accident my gf submitted two bank account statements (with of course two different dates) from 2 separate bank accounts. The statement that was used in 1st application and the other one, which I deposit into. The ECO picked up on this. I only learnt from reading the rejection letter that first time around the agent friend we used decided to deposit £2.5K in my gf's bank account or claimed she had a bank account with £2.5K in it. The ECO has quite rightly queried what funds are genuinely available, the one with £2.5K from March 2015 or the one in June, that I deposit regularly into with whatever was in there (which was obviously less than £2.5K).

Edited October 5, 2015 by isnakebite

[bobrussell]

I suspect your agent friend has done you no favours and further applications are likely to be scrutinised thoroughly. It may be that the damage is bad enough that it might take a reputable agent such as one of the forum sponsors, to put together a sound application.

Trying to fool an ECO is a bit like playing 'Russian Roulette'. If money was placed in an account with the sole intention of fooling an ECO then it is lucky that nothing worse than a refusal resulted.

Use the pinned visit visa topic as your guide then make sure everything in the refusal letters has been thoroughly covered. If you post the exact wording you will get a lot of good, experienced advice here rather than speculation!