Divorce in Isaan

[MaeJoMTB]

The issue is whether under Thai marital property law, the wife had the right to demand 100% of the house (as she is doing), 50% of the house (as others have advised) or 0% of the house (because it was built with funds which the OP owned prior to the marriage.)

I agree with you on Thai marital law.

But this asset has nominal value which is essentially unrecoverable.

If it were in CM or BK, I would say, might be worth the effort.

But as it is in her rural village, with little or no resale value, forget it.

100% = 50% = 0% = no resale value.

Edited October 19, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[Gecko123]

The issue is whether under Thai marital property law, the wife had the right to demand 100% of the house (as she is doing), 50% of the house (as others have advised) or 0% of the house (because it was built with funds which the OP owned prior to the marriage.)

I agree with you on Thai marital law.

But this asset has nominal value which is essentially unrecoverable.

If it were in CM or BK, I would say, might be worth the effort.

But as it is in her rural village, with little or no resale value, forget it.

I "get" that reselling a farang style house in a small village might be difficult and not worth the hassle. But keep in mind that the OP's wife is making substantial cash demands as well. If it can be established that the wife has no legitimate claim to the house, then this would completely undercut the demand for an additional cash payment.

Message to OP: You say the judge and the lawyer (presumably her lawyer) are threatening you if you don't act? Who are you relying on for translation regarding what the judge is saying? If you don't have a lawyer, you definitely need one, but make sure that lawyer understands how Thai marital property law really works. If he tells you everything purchased during the marriage has to be divided 50/50, don't hire him/her. Good luck.

[MaeJoMTB]

I "get" that reselling a farang style house in a small village might be difficult and not worth the hassle. But keep in mind that the OP's wife is making substantial cash demands as well. If it can be established that the wife has no legitimate claim to the house, then this would completely undercut the demand for an additional cash payment.

Almost any style house in a rural Thai village is unsaleable, the villagers don't have any money.

They build their own home on family land, usually using mostly free wood, free labour and other free materials.

If he had walked away, he would have already saved 100k.

If he stays, he might get a bill for another 400-800k.

The one thing I never get about Thailand,

Is the foreigners (like yourself) that have no idea of the value of anything, or what's going on around them.

They insist on building an over priced valueless 'asset' in the back end of nowhere, then are surprised when her real Thai husband moves in.

The best end the OP can hope for (if he hangs around and pushes this) is to lose another 300-500k at the court, the worst is a 'drive by bullet' in the back of his head.

Edited October 19, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[janpharma]

Many thanks to all of you for your advise and ecnouragement...

When I bought the land (in my wife's name) and build the house on it, I made a written and signed agreement with her, a local lawyer, the Puyabaan and myself. Stating that I paid for everything and if there would be any request to divorce...I could sell it and get my money back...

The Thai judge and my lawyer didn't give any attention on this...I also made a prenuptial agreement with the Ambassador at the Belgian Embassy saying

that I could keep all my possessions that I had at that moment at any time...When I married I stopped working and have no income...since than.

Both documents were made in Thai and in English and stating that my wife understood the content.

The Thai Judge seems not to have any attention to this...and my lawyer doesn't stress on this either...they only want me to give the house and pay a huge amount of money.

It feels like I'm being ripped off by both the lawyer and the judge. Therefore I will anounce this here and I think to sew them both at the Thai Law Council and the Ombudsman as well as the lawyer of my ex-wife.

Thank you all again for your support.

.

[prakhonchai nick]

Many thanks to all of you for your advise and ecnouragement...

When I bought the land (in my wife's name) and build the house on it, I made a written and signed agreement with her, a local lawyer, the Puyabaan and myself. Stating that I paid for everything and if there would be any request to divorce...I could sell it and get my money back...

The Thai judge and my lawyer didn't give any attention on this...I also made a prenuptial agreement with the Ambassador at the Belgian Embassy saying

that I could keep all my possessions that I had at that moment at any time...When I married I stopped working and have no income...since than.

Both documents were made in Thai and in English and stating that my wife understood the content.

The Thai Judge seems not to have any attention to this...and my lawyer doesn't stress on this either...they only want me to give the house and pay a huge amount of money.

It feels like I'm being ripped off by both the lawyer and the judge. Therefore I will anounce this here and I think to sew them both at the Thai Law Council and the Ombudsman as well as the lawyer of my ex-wife.

Thank you all again for your support.

.

Good to see you've got the bit between your teeth.

Go ahead and issue formal complaints to the Thai Law Society and the Ombudsman. Clearly your lawyer is not operating in your best interests or does not understand the law of divorce, whilst the Judge should remain impartial

Good luck and please keep us all advised.

[lopburi3]

That is interesting as you can not buy land in your wife's name - she can only buy land if the funds are hers alone as foreigners are not allowed to own land so any documents saying otherwise would put land purchase in question I suspect - and could be used against the foreigner as proof of intent to circumvent Thai land ownership laws. You may more on your plate than you know - and it may be good judge did not pay attention to that paperwork.

[janpharma]

That is interesting as you can not buy land in your wife's name - she can only buy land if the funds are hers alone as foreigners are not allowed to own land so any documents saying otherwise would put land purchase in question I suspect - and could be used against the foreigner as proof of intent to circumvent Thai land ownership laws. You may more on your plate than you know - and it may be good judge did not pay attention to that paperwork.

Dear member, I think there is al litle misunderstanding here...any farang can give money to any woman to purchase land...

[prakhonchai nick]

That is interesting as you can not buy land in your wife's name - she can only buy land if the funds are hers alone as foreigners are not allowed to own land so any documents saying otherwise would put land purchase in question I suspect - and could be used against the foreigner as proof of intent to circumvent Thai land ownership laws. You may more on your plate than you know - and it may be good judge did not pay attention to that paperwork.

Dear member, I think there is al litle misunderstanding here...any farang can give money to any woman to purchase land...

That is technically true Jan, and happens all the time. However when registering the land at the land Office, and obtaining a chanote, the Thai and farang have to both sign documents, effectively stating the land was bought by the Thai with her own money, and the farang has no interest whatsoever in the land. In that respect the land is hers. However if you have receipts/documents etc showing you paid for the house construction, you could argue the house was yours. The land registration book (the blue book) does not convey ownership of the house or the land.

[gemguy]

Disappear for about 1 year or more if you want and see what happens.....Thai style....lol

Who needs to stick around and be subjected to the sort of crap you are being subjected to.

Cheers and good luck.

If during the year the OP Mrs runs up credit card bills or decides to buy a pickup truck or get involved in any other credits, I hear that Jan would be liable as well. A quick divorce is the best option.

I would not worry about that.

Cancel everything and just fade away.

It can work that way also.

Either way there are complications.

Cheers

[tonypace02]

Make her an offer. Tell her in no uncertain terms that if she does not accept it to take you to court. If you lose you will appeal again and again until the lawyers have taken all the money. The threat of appeal is very prevalent and effective in forcing settlements in Thai courts.

[puchooay]

That is interesting as you can not buy land in your wife's name - she can only buy land if the funds are hers alone as foreigners are not allowed to own land so any documents saying otherwise would put land purchase in question I suspect - and could be used against the foreigner as proof of intent to circumvent Thai land ownership laws. You may more on your plate than you know - and it may be good judge did not pay attention to that paperwork.

Dear member, I think there is al litle misunderstanding here...any farang can give money to any woman to purchase land...

That is technically true Jan, and happens all the time. However when registering the land at the land Office, and obtaining a chanote, the Thai and farang have to both sign documents, effectively stating the land was bought by the Thai with her own money, and the farang has no interest whatsoever in the land. In that respect the land is hers. However if you have receipts/documents etc showing you paid for the house construction, you could argue the house was yours. The land registration book (the blue book) does not convey ownership of the house or the land.

Unless the land is purchased under the " sin smorot" agreement.

[Nomyai]

Many thanks to all of you for your advise and ecnouragement...

When I bought the land (in my wife's name) and build the house on it, I made a written and signed agreement with her, a local lawyer, the Puyabaan and myself. Stating that I paid for everything and if there would be any request to divorce...I could sell it and get my money back...

The Thai judge and my lawyer didn't give any attention on this...I also made a prenuptial agreement with the Ambassador at the Belgian Embassy saying

that I could keep all my possessions that I had at that moment at any time...When I married I stopped working and have no income...since than.

Both documents were made in Thai and in English and stating that my wife understood the content.

The Thai Judge seems not to have any attention to this...and my lawyer doesn't stress on this either...they only want me to give the house and pay a huge amount of money.

It feels like I'm being ripped off by both the lawyer and the judge. Therefore I will anounce this here and I think to sew them both at the Thai Law Council and the Ombudsman as well as the lawyer of my ex-wife.

Thank you all again for your support.

.

I aggre wholeheartedly------SEW em!

Sir with all due respects. This can be a teachable moment for the next Swen off the plane. Would you do anything different if you had a cahnce for a redo?

[Jip99]

That is interesting as you can not buy land in your wife's name - she can only buy land if the funds are hers alone as foreigners are not allowed to own land so any documents saying otherwise would put land purchase in question I suspect - and could be used against the foreigner as proof of intent to circumvent Thai land ownership laws. You may more on your plate than you know - and it may be good judge did not pay attention to that paperwork.

Dear member, I think there is al litle misunderstanding here...any farang can give money to any woman to purchase land...

That is technically true Jan, and happens all the time. However when registering the land at the land Office, and obtaining a chanote, the Thai and farang have to both sign documents, effectively stating the land was bought by the Thai with her own money, and the farang has no interest whatsoever in the land. In that respect the land is hers. However if you have receipts/documents etc showing you paid for the house construction, you could argue the house was yours. The land registration book (the blue book) does not convey ownership of the house or the land.

Unless the land is purchased under the " sin smorot" agreement.

"Sin somros" ? Section 1474 of the Thailand Civil and Commercial Code.

Jointly owned assets acquired after marriage.

[Jip99]

Many thanks to all of you for your advise and ecnouragement...

When I bought the land (in my wife's name) and build the house on it, I made a written and signed agreement with her, a local lawyer, the Puyabaan and myself. Stating that I paid for everything and if there would be any request to divorce...I could sell it and get my money back...

The Thai judge and my lawyer didn't give any attention on this...I also made a prenuptial agreement with the Ambassador at the Belgian Embassy saying

that I could keep all my possessions that I had at that moment at any time...When I married I stopped working and have no income...since than.

Both documents were made in Thai and in English and stating that my wife understood the content.

The Thai Judge seems not to have any attention to this...and my lawyer doesn't stress on this either...they only want me to give the house and pay a huge amount of money.

It feels like I'm being ripped off by both the lawyer and the judge. Therefore I will anounce this here and I think to sew them both at the Thai Law Council and the Ombudsman as well as the lawyer of my ex-wife.

Thank you all again for your support.

.

Jan I fear you are heading down a blind alley.

To attempt to pursue the lawyers will only finish up in pain and further costs to you.

I believe that the majority of advice is for you to walk away. That, in my opinion, is the best practical solution. In Thailand, the practical outcome is more relevant than the legal position - especially in our part of Buriram.

I went with a Farang not far from Prakhonchai to a lawyer in Buriram. Similar situation to your own (he had spent nearer to 3m). The lawyer said no problem, for 30,000 Baht he could get a court order stating that he was entitled to at least 50% of the property value (probably more if he could prove her infidelity). However, the lawyer also said that he would never see a single Satang as no one would want to buy the house (rural, built on family land). Additionally, a Thai will never sell if at all possible. As MaeJoMTB pointed out, if the house was on an estate in Chiang Mai or Pattaya it would have a resale value and willing purchasers.

He walked away and is now content with his new life, 2.8m Baht poorer but he did not throw good money after bad. I strongly recommend that you do the same.

If you do not wish to follow that advice then speak to Isaan Lawyers. Sebastian is experienced in these matters and is a good negotiator. I can't see the point in any negotiation but that is what you will have to do to take matters further.

[hanuman2543]

Thank you all for your concern and advise...I went to Court with a Lawyer from BKK, well known at ThaiVisa...but I prefer not to mention names...He defends my case...but maybe not at "State of the Art"-level. I mean, I don't see any reason to pay 1 million more besides the fact that I leave the house to my (ex-) wife who is having an affair with another man...I just don't understand why the (female) Judge on duty on October 14th at the Buriram Court wants me to pay more...to a <deleted>.

When Thai men leave their spouse they don't pay a dime...Why should I pay millions?

I will bring this also to Court in February...

If you hired the lawyer who terminated his free service here because of " no staff" be prepared for a disappointment. PM me if you want to know more.

[Gecko123]

There is a terrible myth which keeps circulating in the expat community and on TVF threads that "anything purchased during marriage is automatically marital property" and has to be split 50/50. This is completely untrue.

Please see my post #118 on this thread, which explains why this is not the case. The attached article also does a good job of explaining how the law works:

http://www.thailandl...i-marriage-laws

Please note section 1472 of the Thailand Civil Code which reads:

(Section 1472) if a personal asset has been exchanged to other property, other property has been bought or money has been acquired from selling it, such other property or money acquired shall be a personal asset. For example, if you buy a car during your marriage and you pay for the car with personal money (not marital) the car is a personal asset of the spouse who paid for it (if paid with personal property), even though acquired during the marriage.

Again, in order to understand how marital property is defined, you need to understand the definition of marital property AND the definition of personal property belonging to one spouse.

[janpharma]

There is a terrible myth which keeps circulating in the expat community and on TVF threads that "anything purchased during marriage is automatically marital property" and has to be split 50/50. This is completely untrue.

Please see my post #118 on this thread, which explains why this is not the case. The attached article also does a good job of explaining how the law works:

http://www.thailandl...i-marriage-laws

Please note section 1472 of the Thailand Civil Code which reads:

(Section 1472) if a personal asset has been exchanged to other property, other property has been bought or money has been acquired from selling it, such other property or money acquired shall be a personal asset. For example, if you buy a car during your marriage and you pay for the car with personal money (not marital) the car is a personal asset of the spouse who paid for it (if paid with personal property), even though acquired during the marriage.

Again, in order to understand how marital property is defined, you need to understand the definition of marital property AND the definition of personal property belonging to one spouse.

[janpharma]

Thank you so much for this very intersting information, Gecko!

There is a terrible myth which keeps circulating in the expat community and on TVF threads that "anything purchased during marriage is automatically marital property" and has to be split 50/50. This is completely untrue.

Please see my post #118 on this thread, which explains why this is not the case. The attached article also does a good job of explaining how the law works:

http://www.thailandl...i-marriage-laws

Please note section 1472 of the Thailand Civil Code which reads:

(Section 1472) if a personal asset has been exchanged to other property, other property has been bought or money has been acquired from selling it, such other property or money acquired shall be a personal asset. For example, if you buy a car during your marriage and you pay for the car with personal money (not marital) the car is a personal asset of the spouse who paid for it (if paid with personal property), even though acquired during the marriage.

Again, in order to understand how marital property is defined, you need to understand the definition of marital property AND the definition of personal property belonging to one spouse.

[realenglish1]

She came from a Bar in Pattaya Oh DUDE what else did you expect from suck a person

And your giving her a house I have to Laugh because you are getting what would be expected from some one that was selling

herself. And I have to admit that the other guy is dumber than you . This woman set you up for everything

I do not feel sorry for you one bit Sorry about that

[Jip99]

She came from a Bar in Pattaya Oh DUDE what else did you expect from suck a person

And your giving her a house I have to Laugh because you are getting what would be expected from some one that was selling

herself. And I have to admit that the other guy is dumber than you . This woman set you up for everything

I do not feel sorry for you one bit Sorry about that

Absolutely stunning contribution

I think you will find that the OP is not looking for your sympathy.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Jip99

[MaeJoMTB]

That is technically true Jan, and happens all the time. However when registering the land at the land Office, and obtaining a chanote, the Thai and farang have to both sign documents, effectively stating the land was bought by the Thai with her own money,

I suspect this is unchanoted land, so not registered by the land office, but noted in the village head mans book.

Essentially government land for agricultural use by Thais born locally, and assigned by the village head man.

[theoldgit]

Post in breach of Forum Rules removed.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[fabphil]

leave thailand, get a name change, new passport, and then come back and freelance, keep it simple PAYG

[billphillips]

Something is way off with this story.

1) whoever is at fault ... it does not influence the financial arrangements.

2) assets purchased / obtained during the period of marriage are to be divided 50/50.

3) assets owned by an individual before the marriage remain the property of that individual after the divorce.

Of course some basic proof needs to be provided regarding ownership of assets. This is the way the local law works, we would say: common law. An individual or a judge cannot change or override common law.

Get yourself a real lawyer, one is available on this site.

[Gecko123]

Something is way off with this story.

1) whoever is at fault ... it does not influence the financial arrangements.

2) assets purchased / obtained during the period of marriage are to be divided 50/50.

3) assets owned by an individual before the marriage remain the property of that individual after the divorce.

Of course some basic proof needs to be provided regarding ownership of assets. This is the way the local law works, we would say: common law. An individual or a judge cannot change or override common law.

Get yourself a real lawyer, one is available on this site.

Highlighted/underlined portion of point #2 is incorrect. See posts #118 and #136 on this thread for explanation as to why this is not correct.

[billphillips]

Something is way off with this story.

1) whoever is at fault ... it does not influence the financial arrangements.

2) assets purchased / obtained during the period of marriage are to be divided 50/50.

3) assets owned by an individual before the marriage remain the property of that individual after the divorce.

Of course some basic proof needs to be provided regarding ownership of assets. This is the way the local law works, we would say: common law. An individual or a judge cannot change or override common law.

Get yourself a real lawyer, one is available on this site.

Highlighted/underlined portion of point #2 is incorrect. See posts #118 and #136 on this thread for explanation as to why this is not correct.

Ok great news for the OP. I expect the problem would be proof and in that case, the probable easy solution is a 50/50 split, so favoured by the courts here.

The confusing issue to me, in the is case, is the comments from the judge. The judge is not permitted to alter common law, merely interpret it. And what of the OPs "lawyer"? Something is way off with the whole story.

[slipperylobster]

Why bother with a divorce Jan?

Unless you want to re-marry, stay as you are. Leave the wife. Have a legal letter of separation sent to her setting out why you have left, and then get on with your life (seemingly in Pattaya according to an earlier post)

That way there is no settlement necessary. You have already lost the house. Why lose money too.

Let the wife sue for divorce, then come up with the evidence/documents etc you have, and make sure that any money you have is suitably "lost".

perfectly sound advice....

[fang37]

Don't get married in the first place.

Then a divorce is unnecessary.

[janpharma]

Hello You all!

I'm happy to announce that I finally got divorced. First I got a bad and lousy lawyer who ripped me off 110.000.- THB...

Thanks to the good advice of one amongst you I found myself a new good lawyer and also a good interpreter...If anyone is interested to know who the bad guy is...and also who the good ones are, just send me a private message and I will let you know.

By the way...the relationship of my ex-wife and her "boy friend" who was acting like a pimp also ended...

[Jip99]

Hello You all!

I'm happy to announce that I finally got divorced. First I got a bad and lousy lawyer who ripped me off 110.000.- THB...

Thanks to the good advice of one amongst you I found myself a new good lawyer and also a good interpreter...If anyone is interested to know who the bad guy is...and also who the good ones are, just send me a private message and I will let you know.

By the way...the relationship of my ex-wife and her "boy friend" who was acting like a pimp also ended...

Pleased to hear that everything turned out well for you Jan.