Teaching Without Tefl Certificate?

[In the Rai!]

Loaded,

I think you may have jumped the gun a little on Susan. She did not say speaking Thai should be encouraged, infact it was the complete oppositte. I too agree that Thai should not be used in a classroom of any Inter or EP program. These programs are for students to speak in English and their parents expect their children and teacher alike to speak only English together.

In the normal program it is not so important and most of the time basic Thai is needed to communicate with these students. Most not all have very basic skills and some basi Thai is essential.

For anyone who is a teacher in their own country would know that teaching ESL is very different from teaching back home. In fact I have worked over here with other teachers from back home who just can not cope and feel it is more stressful.

Teaching ESL in it's own right is a different animal to teaching native students. I do agree that being a qualified teacher has certainly helped many (but not all) for ideas and planning etc, but at the end of the day unless you are a qualified ESL teacher through a university than an intencive TEFL course for any educated person is by far qualifying that person higher in TEFL than someone with a bachelor of Arts etc..

I think that the only downfall with the TEFL system (courses) is that they make it too easy to pass. If they made it harder, not only will they improve the level of graduates but it will also reduce the amount of deadbeats that are teaching around the world without any hint of intelligence whatsover making those great teachers with a TEFL certificate look bad.

In The Rai!

[paully]

Odd, you feel speaking Thai in an English class should be encouraged??

My reasons why in general this isn't a good idea and shouldn't be encouraged (there are valid exceptions):

1. If students know they can communicate in Thai to their teacher, they will. Avoiding communicating in English.

2. Often there is no easy direct translation between Thai and English. For example, English uses verb tense to convey meaning with respect to time context, but Thai (in general) uses adverbs of time. Vocabulary often doesn't directly translate: how often have you been asked what 'krienjai' means in English.

3. The teacher is a model.

4. Parents expect English to be used - they're paying!

5. EPs are promoted as, well English Programmes, and the expecation of students and parents is that education will happen only in English.

6. Consistency in every English classroom.

I do agree that when you're teaching anubahn and you need the little darlings to sit down, shut up and open their books before studying, Thai may be a better medium to give the instruction.

Agreed, although I believe it was Neeranam who felt that an ability to speak Thai was an advantage. The kids are not there to speak Thai in your class, they need all the practice in speaking English that they can possibly get if they are to progress. If you speak Thai to them, they will, naturally, reply in Thai. Of course understanding Thai is a different matter and may well be an advantage. But the teacher should always use English in class except with the very tiny ones.

Edited September 7, 2006 by paully

[kevc]

I've been reading all your posts about whether or not to speak Thai in an English classroom, has anyone ever looked at Rosetta Stone language courses their whole system is based on not using another language to learn your target language, ie the Thai course is written in Thai and spoken in Thai, not a word of English in the whole course.

[PeaceBlondie]

Well, Susan, you have chosen your thread about TEFL training to be this thread. I'm honestly trying to figure out what you're saying. I've reviewed all your posts in this thread, and here's the summary:

CONCLUSIONS OR SUMMARY:

1. being a native speaker.

2. dedication, willingness, minimal preparation

3. how to interact with Thai students

4. being smart (clever) is all that matters

5. learning through experience, what works

6. being able to adapt on a moment’s notice

7. if you can just think in English, you can teach English

8. keep students’ attention for more than the first 10 minutes of class

9. gaining and earn the respect of Thai students

10. experiences of life, including being out in front of people

11. willing to go with the flow of Thai culture

12. Western common sense, adopted to Thai culture

13. body language, facial expressions, and gestures (that native speakers have)

Item #1 is owned by every street sweeper from Birmingham, every hillbilly and northern Welshman, Scotsman, or crocodile hunter from Darwin. Oh, and natives of Sierra Leone, Singapore, much of India, etc.

Item #2 applies to every job everywhere.

Item #3, 6, 7, and various others ARE TAUGHT AND LEARNED in a TEFL course that includes teaching practice, especially if it's in the target country.

Item #7, however, is just plain wrong, and if you mean it, well, you haven't met some of the native speakers we've met.

I've got an alcoholic son in Texas, 31 years old, 9th grade dropout with a GED and the gift of gab, more nerve than you and I have, and he's smart/clever. Put him in a classroom (after he's shaved and bathed and clothed properly), and he'd fall flat on his face, and his command of English is much more impressive most average native speakers. He wouldn't have a clue as to how to teach English to Thais. Nor would most of the folks back home that we've all known throughout our lives.

Susan, it's an extremely difficult job when a teacher is properly trained. Why make it nearly impossible?

Four weeks in a TEFL course isn't as long as 14 weeks or 144 weeks, but it's better than no weeks.

I started being an instructor/minister of education/ESL teacher, etc., in 1962, and it was no cake walk when I entered a Thai classroom in 2003, but my TEFL course surely did help me.

[kenkannif]

^ Mate bear in mind this is the lady that told teachers they can just 'buy' a work permit to teach here from the Bangkok Post...LoL and you lot are taking her seriously???

[SusanRichardson]

Susan, it's an extremely difficult job when a teacher is properly trained. Why make it nearly impossible?

Thanks for the summary kind man/woman. I stand by each and every remark.

If it is such a "difficult" job, one which requires all these special skills you portray, why is the pay so low? Just curious.

For the right type of person, it is a rewarding "job" which requires little time, includes alot of paid holidays(if you are in the Government system), is not stressful, and allows you to live in a nice country(Thailand) which offers additional benefits I don't need to outline in detail, most know them.

I've always been shocked and alarmed at various marketing ploys to make things something which they aren't. If you are a native speaker, can interact with Thai's, and can grasp what is in a high school English course text book(one for people learning English i.e. Thailand school books) you are on your way. The rest of it comes naturally. Cheers. Susan

[SusanRichardson]

[

Agreed, although I believe it was Neeranam who felt that an ability to speak Thai was an advantage.

Yes, it was the other members opinion, not mine. Guys tend to jump me every chance they get. The truth it seems is a very bitter pill to swallow. Cheers mate. Susan

[SusanRichardson]

^ Mate bear in mind this is the lady that told teachers they can just 'buy' a work permit to teach here from the Bangkok Post...LoL and you lot are taking her seriously???

Not from the Bangkok Post. I said LOOK in the the newspaper, ads all over the place with guaranty of a work permit, various amounts. Funny, you don't laugh off the TEFL Certificate "schools" making the claim. Money does indeed talk in Thailand. Cheers. Susan.

[SusanRichardson]

7. if you can just think in English, you can teach English

Item #7, however, is just plain wrong, and if you mean it, well, you haven't met some of the native speakers we've met.

Perhaps your point is valid. I was posting on the assumption the person was educated and in the context of actual qualifications required to be successful. Combining this "thought" with the assumption he/she felt a duty to be on time, sober, well groomed, and somewhat prepared for the lessons. Most important, WANTING to convey something he/sh actually understands to the students and knowing if he/she has or not via an inner sort of sense we all know when we feel it....cheers. Susan

[the swagman]

If it is such a "difficult" job, one which requires all these special skills you portray, why is the pay so low? Just curious.

For the right type of person, it is a rewarding "job" which requires little time, includes alot of paid holidays(if you are in the Government system), is not stressful, and allows you to live in a nice country(Thailand) which offers additional benefits I don't need to outline in detail, most know them.

I've always been shocked and alarmed at various marketing ploys to make things something which they aren't. If you are a native speaker, can interact with Thai's, and can grasp what is in a high school English course text book(one for people learning English i.e. Thailand school books) you are on your way. The rest of it comes naturally. Cheers. Susan

Susan,

Teaching is a difficult job, if it is done right. If you have any sense of pride in what you do it takes time and effort and motivation.

'For the right type of person' - ah, something I didn't see on any other thread.

It does take a special, maybe not the right word, kind of person to be an effective teacher. You do't have to be super clever (smart), nor do you really need to be a 'native' speaker, but you do need to have a certain something. What it is, is something that cannot be learned nor does it come with experience, it is inbuilt.

I used to employ 8 teachers for a contract of mine and my 8 teachers were all people who I liked personally. They were 'nice' people who I knew would do the job professionally and well. Some of them were not qualified, none of us (including myself) had a TEFL. However we all had experience and we all had a confidence in what we were doing. We held that contract for longer than any other language school or freelancer had ever done before.

Having a TEFL is by no means a guarantee that you will be a good teacher, for someone who has absolutely no idea of what they have to do it, a course might be good for them to get started.

I have to disagree with you when you say 'If you are a native speaker, can interact with Thai's, and can grasp what is in a high school English course text book(one for people learning English i.e. Thailand school books) you are on your way. The rest of it comes naturally.'

It doesn't come naturally.

Sure anyone can teach, anyone can stand in front of a board and tell the students to turn to page in the book and we go through the answers. This is not teaching, this is filling in the blanks. Standing in front of the class and asking the students to ask you questions, is not teaching, your life experiences, where you come from, how many brothers and sisters you have, etc etc is not what makes a lesson. Your life experiences and travels while to you, may sound interesting and need to be heard by everyone you meet is not what teaching is about.

I will agree with you about many of these TEFL courses that are prevelent in this country in that many of them are wasteful and counter productive.

Education in this and many countries is a business, and a ###### profitable one at that. Many astute businessmen have twigged on to this and there are now all types of courses and schools all over the country offering you a chance to teach while you get a certificate. It's good foe them, it's good for the wannabe teacher and the students get to play with a fresh new farang. It's business.

Speaking Thai in the classroom. I am guilty of that. I do it for effect, for humour and to show I didn't learn my Thai in a bar with naked ladies. I don't use it to instruct, I don't use it to show off and I don't do it to learn for Thai. I find nothing wrong with a limited use of the language of the country to create or maintain an atmosphere.

One more thing, I have seen in this thread the use of ESL, English as a second language. In Thailand we are not teaching ESL we are teaching EFL. English as a foreign language. It is a foreign language in Thailand, street signs are generally in Thai, shop signs are generally in Thai and outside of the main tourist areas and hotels, English is not used by the local population.

[kenkannif]

^ Mate bear in mind this is the lady that told teachers they can just 'buy' a work permit to teach here from the Bangkok Post...LoL and you lot are taking her seriously???

Not from the Bangkok Post. I said LOOK in the the newspaper, ads all over the place with guaranty of a work permit, various amounts. Funny, you don't laugh off the TEFL Certificate "schools" making the claim. Money does indeed talk in Thailand. Cheers. Susan.

Err no you didn't Susan you told teachers they could just 'buy' a work permit from the ads etc. in the Bangkok Post....please don't fib!!!

I do laugh of the TEFL cert 'schools' that make the same claims....buying a job/WP isn't what they should be about AT ALL!!!

[PeaceBlondie]

I'll try to be brief here:

Susan claims, "For the right type of person, it is a rewarding "job" which requires little time, includes alot of paid holidays(if you are in the Government system), is not stressful,..."

If you're unprepared and are starting to teach TEFL without a course, it's extremely stressful. I worked in two nice, big provincial schools that were about as well organized as most govt. schools, and every day was stressful, after two years. Not freaking-out stressful, just challenging, hot, disorganized, ill-planned, not enough resources, kids too noisy, etc.

Susan, one reason I never accuse you of being Smeg is that, unlike him, you seem to give the impression that almost any native speaker of English from a fairly inappropriate background can make it here. Chicago has that reputation (oh, anybody can make money there, at a reasonably easy job), but 98% of Chicagoans couldn't teach EFL easily here.

Yes, it's rewarding. But not monetarily.

[SusanRichardson]

If you're unprepared and are starting to teach TEFL without a course, it's extremely stressful. I

Again, no real need to "plug" the marketing companies, but to each his own.

Now, lets use a real life example shall we?

PLEASE DO NOT tell me a University in the USA does not compare with teaching in a Thai high school. This example is NOT to intended to say or mean that.

The point:

When a "University" hires a "teacher" they obviously want someone who knows the subject. Lets take organic chemistry. If a freshman comes to school without ever having chemistry and signs up for the course, he/she is going to be "taught" by a call it a Ph.D. in chemistry degree holding "professor". This so called professor has no, NONE/nada "teaching" certificate or education minor, he/she only has the qualification of we assume knowing something about organic chemistry.

Now, apply that to our situation here in Thailand. I think it is basically the same thing. (again, don't need a reminder of the differences between American college students vs. Thai high school teenagers) I am refering to the QUALIFICATIONS of the "teacher"

cheers. Susan

[SusanRichardson]

Now, apply that to our situation here in Thailand. I think it is basically the same thing. (again, don't need a reminder of the differences between American college students vs. Thai high school teenagers) I am refering to the QUALIFICATIONS of the "teacher"

Edited in: So, my opinion remains, if you are well versed in the "subject" i.e. a native English speaker, you are basically qualified(assume good educational background and not a drunk) to "teach" it to others with minimal or zero knowledge of the subject, English...

Edit function did not work so new post. Susan

[PeaceBlondie]

I agree, Susan, and ijustwannateach has made that point often. It's weird, really, that in most countries, Einstein and Steven Hawking, and almost all the other famous professors, didn't need one education course to teach physics or whatever their specialty was, but they probably needed a Ph.D. in their teaching subject.

In Thailand as in the USA, primary and secondary education are controlled by educated educators who think an education in education is necessary. They make their point, but they over-emphasize it. I once was learning Spanish in a little junior college branch in a depressed area of Oklahoma City, and I doubt the Spanish teacher had any "education" hours. Somehow, she knew how to teach Spanish. One night she sent a substitute, who only spoke Spanish and didn't have a clue as to how to teach it. She wasted an hour trying to teach us "same" and "similar" and "identical" but we couldn't figure it out.

I don't get commissions from TEFL providers; I just think the courses are extremely helpful. Sure, you can plunge into the deep pool without a life jacket and hope you figure out how to swim. But it's never easy, and every bit helps.

[SusanRichardson]

One night she sent a substitute, who only spoke Spanish and didn't have a clue as to how to teach it. She wasted an hour trying to teach us "same" and "similar" and "identical" but we couldn't figure it out.

I don't get commissions from TEFL providers; I just think the courses are extremely helpful.

Well, if you attempted to interact with her you got some education. I learned how to speak Spanish by riding buses around a town in South America. I forced myself upon the people and practiced. It took about two years, and this while also working in a Spanish speaking environment, but in the end when I left I was call it 80percent fluent. NEVER had a class in Spanish. Still remember alot of words but don't get to practice. I might not have been able to pass an entrance exam written in Spanish, but I could get along very well otherwise.

I agree, the courses are or would be extremely helpful. I have NEVER said otherwise. It is the marketing and deceptive practices which irk me and many others. Even your beloved TEFL International advertises in the Pattaya newspaper promotiong a 60hour whatever it is that, and I quote "many countries, including Thailand, require a TEFL Certificate to teach". That is deceptive I hope you agree? One could read it carefully and say or think, well....maybe they mean they think it is required, but most will get the impression it is required by law.

cheers. Susan

[PeaceBlondie]

Not disagreeing now, Susan. I don't love TEFL Int., and we both know that a TEFL cert isn't required to teach in Thailand. Whatever is required to teach legally in Thailand, is never crystal clear. But anybody who simply believes an ad in a paper (or tacked to a phone pole, good grief) doesn't know enough Latin (caveat emptor) to teach anything anywhere.

It reminds me of the surgeon who stepped out of surgery so I could convince him to accept the full disallowance of his tax shelter by the IRS. I said, "Didn't your mother tell you that if something was too good to be true, you shouldn't believe it?"

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, Susan, I'm glad you've finally revealed that in fact you are NOT arguing that TEFL courses aren't helpful. How refreshing.

However, the topic of this thread is "Teaching Without a TEFL." We won't be scrutinising the ad copy of every TEFL school in Thailand on this thread. I hope you will understand.

"Steven"

[SusanRichardson]

Well, Susan, I'm glad you've finally revealed that in fact you are NOT arguing that TEFL courses aren't helpful. How refreshing.

Reading is also refreshing mate. As mentioned, I have NEVER said a "course" of one hour upwards was not helpful in some way. Read again if you must, show me WHERE? I said something so stupid?

I would like to add some other points for your review and comment, on topic. Topic being "teaching without a TEFL" which I guess means no certificate?( )

-Ability to survey a classroom and see who is not paying attention, making a decision without breaking your rythem of the lesson, in the back of your mind, how to deal with him/her/them, excerising your choice be it approach, stare down, or even break in your lesson to prod or stimulate on an individual basis the offender...

-Writing an exam to fit the needs of the class yet challenge the best students, them knowing without preperation they will not get a high score yet knowing if they do study they will do well, while at this same time keeping in mind you must not discourge those average students making sincere attempts to get good marks, writing questions which encourage and force them to think about the topic and lessons you had given and lastly not making the exam to difficult as to "fail" or otherwise discourage what little effort certain percentage of students are making yet who will usually be below or average at best no matter how much they try.

Either of these have anything to do with having or not having a certificate? or are they "teaching"? Cheers. Susan

[Ijustwannateach]

SR, you really need to read the rules of the forum, as I've previously advised.

Included is the following clause:

1) You will not use thaivisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, referencing suicide, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law.

The parts I have highlighted are the ones which your post violates. This subforum is not to be used to defame teachers in Thailand as a general group, nor is it to be used to discuss sexual or illegal practices in Thailand unless there are extremely topical exceptions- this is enforced differently in different subforums, but you could consider this one especially unfriendly in this regard.

Some posts have been removed as a result.

[PeaceBlondie]

The issue in question, apparently, is my statement that "Whatever is required to teach legally in Thailand, is never crystal clear." By that, I meant that one bloke says you have to have a BA to teach in a govt. school; some guy says you don't need a BA to teach in certain provinces, but in Bangkok; a blokette says she thinks you need a TEFL cert if you don't have a degree; etc. And that's just for the work permit, IF your school wishes to get you one (my first two didn't want to and didn't get me one).

To which the first part of Susan's reply was, "Actually, I think having a work permit which states you are teaching for who you are actually teaching for would be "crystal clear" legal." Yeah, if you could get the WP in the first place. Note that today, a UK uni graduate is being told he can get his diploma/degree certified at the UK embassy. No, not exactly. Another teacher is being asked for academic transcripts. Hah! And the best foreign teachers in Thailand are working without work permits at the best international schools, as we speak.

Echoing the comments of ijustwannateach: we don't discuss how many Thai school directors have a mistress, or get massages at dodgy massage parlors. And we don't characterize ThaiVisa members as customers of such places, either.

[kenkannif]

Basically you don't need ANY paperwork to teach legally here....NOTHING AT ALL (other than a WP)! Well unless you do....and that could be a degree, a TEFL, both....or maybe you don't have transcripts...that might stop a school from getting you a WP as they're under the impression you need that to gain one.

So while you don't always need a TEFL to teach here....sometimes you do. The same applies to ALL qualifications here really.

Easy!!!

[kenkannif]

Actually PB even when you hold a WP to teach here you're often breaking the law as your job will ential more than the WP covers (generally).

[JackFrost]

Hope I can get some fast help here.

My son has just informed me he is planning to leave Australia for a few years and just "bum around".

He only has a few grand saved and tells me he will get a job (or anything) teaching English (the Lonely Planet says you can) without any qualifications.

I told him he was nuts going away without something up his sleeve.

He promptly told me that he knows best and he will get by quite OK.

He plans on travelling through Indo, Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam and China. Ther is a TESOL course starting here (Qld Aust) in 2 days for 1750 (I will lend him the $$) but he says he does not want to waste his money as he will always be able to pick up some work somehow.

Is he kidding himself or am I just being a concerned father?

Jack

[PeaceBlondie]

At least until recently, and possibly next year as well, almost anybody could get a job teaching English in Thailand, without a uni degree, without a TEFL, without clean breath or black socks, and even if they're not a native speaker of English.

Your son is young and full of vim, vigor, and vitality. He'll have adventures to tell your great grandchildren.

No, he doesn't literally have to know the first thing about anything. In all frankness as a father of six children, I wouldn't advise the four kids who dropped out of 9th grade to do it. But at that age, a parent can only tell a young adult so much.

But as a former teacher of English in Thailand, I'm afraid he might not be able to teach Thai students, even if he's allowed to try.

Good luck. Don't worry about your children; it usually doesn't matter that much.

[Ijustwannateach]

Didn't we just go through the same topic recently here, already? It sure does seem popular!

Is it likely your son's plan will work out? Probably. Is it guaranteed? By no means.

PB's advice about parenting is bound to be 12000% spot on, he's done enough of it!

I think OP can find topics about teaching in Thailand with TEFL or lack thereof plentifully on the various threads that are already open- look a page or two or three down, or click the link above. I suggest he look for the info there rather than have us slog through the whole "Teaching Without TEFL" drama once again in this thread.

"Steven"

[mark lamai]

with $2000 dollars that kid can stay in thailand for 270 days at 200 baht (AUD7.40) a day.

or 108 days at 500 baht a day.

assuming airfares are paid.

teaching jobs are not easy anymore without a TEFL or such.

the kid is being stupid and needs to do more homework.

lonely planet for heavens sake - they are so outdated

don't worry dad, he will be home real soon!!

[PeaceBlondie]

Okay, I've reopened our previous thread on this topic, and merged some new posts from today. Here we go again.

Part of my post #55 was tongue in cheek, as a father. as mark lamai says, things aren't the same-same any more.

[Neeranam]

Some of you guys take the issue of working illegally without this or that WAY too seriously.

Teaching in Thailand is NOT seious. I have done it for over a decade, and NOone really cares what documentation you have, although I am/was legal most of the time. If you're white and look pertty smart you'll have no problem. If you work for a university or language school, there are 'poo yai' at the top who can sort things out. This is the way that Thailand works - loads of corruption, and I for one like it this way

What's the worst they can do? Throw you out the country? In 14 years here I've heard of one teacher getting thrown out. I estimate they were out of thousands of illegal workers.

[kenkannif]

Where's the clap clap clap emoticons???