Thailand's roads second deadliest in the world: World Health Organization

[willyumiii]

The roads are not deadly.

The drivers are deadly.

[cumgranosalum]

The roads are not deadly.

The drivers are deadly.

Really so you disagree with the 5 Es then? please explain.

[willyumiii]

The roads are not deadly.

The drivers are deadly.

Really so you disagree with the 5 Es then? please explain.

No, I do agree.

Years ago I worked in law enforcement and we followed what we called" the three Es".

Educate

Engineer

and Enforce

In that order.

The problem in Thailand is that laws that are not enforced, ar not followed.

It takes more than check points, looking only for helmet and licences and tea money, to convince drivers to follow the rules.

[newnative]

Totally agree that enforcement is the key to any improvement. And, no, Thailand does not 'have' any real, meaningful enforcement at this point. A helmet checkpoint now and then is not traffic law enforcement. Things may be different in other parts of Thailand but living in Pattaya for 5 years I have never seen any vehicle pulled over for running a red light, speeding, reckless driving, driving the wrong way, etc.. Never seen a ticket for double parking or illegal parking. Not wearing a helmet, yes. Any other violation, so far have never seen a cop giving a ticket. Maybe it happens but not enough to make most drivers respect and obey the traffic laws.

[connda]

The PM and his cabinet must be ecstatic to be ranked as second at 'something' on the world stage.

Congratulations Thailand for your exceptionalism in killing human beings on your roads, highways, and byways. You must be truly proud of your accomplishment! Kudos.

Edited October 24, 2015 by connda

[cumgranosalum]

The roads are not deadly.

The drivers are deadly.

Really so you disagree with the 5 Es then? please explain.

No, I do agree.

Years ago I worked in law enforcement and we followed what we called" the three Es".

Educate

Engineer

and Enforce

In that order.

The problem in Thailand is that laws that are not enforced, ar not followed.

It takes more than check points, looking only for helmet and licences and tea money, to convince drivers to follow the rules.

Unfortunately, you can't just pick one "E"...."it don't work like that".........

Thailand has "enforcement" - but it is useless and inconsistent.... it has ALL the Es even evaluation, but the authorities as with so many issues in this country prefer to ignore the research and go for the knee-jerk.

For "E-enforcement" it to work you need both public and police to be E - educated in the law......and then a judicial system that can deal with the extra load of motoring offences....

Then you also need the roads to be clearly designed and marked out - "E" - engineering.....and so it goes on...all the "E"s are inextricably linked, without 1 the whole chain falls down.

I have worked in traffic engineering and driven all over the world and a couple of things that are glaringly obvious to me is that the percentage of idiots in any country is more or less the same. What drivers FAIL to realise - largely because it is quite subtle - is how their driving is controlled by traffic engineering; it's main aim is to prevent incidents and collisions by preventing idiots doing what comes naturally.

the WHO report is based in this instance on deaths per 100k of pop...this is not the only criteria for road safety and it certainly does mean there is a direct correlation between these figures and "danger" on the roads. For instance, the number of "collisions" recorded in the UK has been claimed to be the same as in Thailand - yet these result in far fewer deaths. this would indicate other factors apart from drivers - one notable difference is the huge percentage of motorcyclists' deaths (80%??) in Thailand.

the point I'm trying to make is that post after post on this thread has proposed some single solution that is purely the result of the poster's own prejudices or perception and the issues facing Thailand a FAR more nuanced and indeed numerous than it would appear these people realise.

[cumgranosalum]

The roads are not deadly.

The drivers are deadly.

Really so you disagree with the 5 Es then? please explain.

No, I do agree.

Years ago I worked in law enforcement and we followed what we called" the three Es".

Educate

Engineer

and Enforce

In that order.

The problem in Thailand is that laws that are not enforced, ar not followed.

It takes more than check points, looking only for helmet and licences and tea money, to convince drivers to follow the rules.

so that isn't "bad drivers", is it?

[cumgranosalum]

5 E's of road safety:

• Engineering
• Education
• Encouragement
• Enforcement
• Evaluation

So what's "encouragement" when it's at home?...or did you just misread "engineering"?

Edited October 25, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[simple1]

5 E's of road safety:

• Engineering
• Education
• Encouragement
• Enforcement
• Evaluation

So what's "encouragement" when it's at home?...or did you just misread "engineering"?

Copied from NSW Police website, go query them

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/community_issues/road_safety

https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/contact_us

[Ace of Pop]

WHO report figures they collect. Thailand's by no means as bad as some Ive driven in. India must be worse but don't report if there is no insurance claim.

[lifeincnx]

Just renewed my Thai 5-year driver's license. Naturally, there was no written exam. But I did get to watch a swell 2-hour video. Apparently there is NO LAW regarding safe distances to avoid tail-gating. The video's narrator told us drivers to simply "use our discretion' in judging the distance to the car in front of us. AND, the reason give? It's the "courteous" thing to do. Heck with courteous, how about avoiding death?

[i claudius]

I love Thailand ,or i would not live here ,but lets be honest ,most drivers have the "me first" attitude,and the driving skills of a five year old , if their brains were made of gunpowder they couldnt blow their hat off .and no matter what happens its never their fault ,always the other driver

[siam2007]

We have a "government" whose primary reason for existing and whole focus is on making sure the masses never get the chance to elect a government of their choice again and yet something like this, which kills tens of thousands of Thai citizens yearly is ignored. When exactly does reform of the police begin? That would be a primary solution to much of this bloodshed. Never is the probable answer sadly.

well, before we had a government ruled by a rich businessman, whose primary reason for existing was to (successfully) exploit the country - is that any better? And the death toll on the roads was same as it is now. So what ??? it does not matter who rules the country, as they will never learn anyway.....

[dageurreotype]

the removal of trees from the side and centre of roads.

Some french people did things like that in a few provinces .

u know why ?

because sometimes trees are crossing the roads ;

now there are no trees but crazy drivers continue to die in the fields

If you come off the road, which would you prefer to collide with a field or a tree?

I haven't read through the entirety of the usual 'bad Thai driving' thread, it usually misses out the parts where the farang element come here and take on the worst aspects of Thai driving as they can't drive like maniacs/carelessly without consequence (a post by some disgruntled farang in the Pattaya forum who'd hit a Thai woman motorcycle driver whilst not checking traffic as he sped away from a 7/11 and then being asked for reparation springs to mind), oh and my French neighbours who, having returned from a trip to their home country were so happy to be back in Thailand as they could drive as fast as they like without being stopped - apparently quite often by the gendarmerie. But has it seriously been suggested that trees be removed from the sides/central reservations of roads because some muppet might drive into one? Seriously? How about they move all the elephants out of Khao Yai park so they don't interfere with the bloody traffic whilst they're about it? I dunno, there's quite possibly not a natural roadLESS space left here big enough to relocate them to, so how about just shooting them all? Christ. Some of you ..

Edited October 25, 2015 by dageurreotype

[LuckyNo4]

We have a "government" whose primary reason for existing and whole focus is on making sure the masses never get the chance to elect a government of their choice again and yet something like this, which kills tens of thousands of Thai citizens yearly is ignored. When exactly does reform of the police begin? That would be a primary solution to much of this bloodshed. Never is the probable answer sadly.

Good job! Managing to bring the present government to task for a situation that has been exactly the same for more than a decade, unless you count Yingluck bringing another million plus cars to public roads without improving driver training, actually making things worse. Way to stick your foot in your mouth!

Yeh good job to you too for bringing up the past (again) when we are dealing with the present and the future. Way to stick your foot in your mouth! The present government had time to do something...anything... but they have done nothing accept hunt down and prosecute those that they see as a threat. Fix the country and fix it now!

[cumgranosalum]

5 E's of road safety:

• Engineering
• Education
• Encouragement
• Enforcement
• Evaluation

So what's "encouragement" when it's at home?...or did you just misread "engineering"?

Copied from NSW Police website, go query them

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/community_issues/road_safety

https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/contact_us

they appear to have omitted "emergency" - this is an oversight IMO. However, I find it curious that countries - especially the UK and others with links to UK regard the police as the ultimate authority on road safety.....at least they USED TO. Now it is realised by most that it is a science that is best left in the hands of professionals who are actually dedicated to viewing the issue as a whole. In turn the UK police have kept up with the science and developed their book "Roadcraft" in accordance...the early editions were just a police manual, full of assumptions and guff, but now it is a valuable document. I wish the same could be said for the Aussie police forces, with whom I've had a few encounters.

[Truth4All]

But what is the reason the Thai don't have real traffic-police who really patrol and give tickets to offenders?

Don't they have the cars for that? Or don't they trust their crew enough to do it? Or is it too dangerous to do with so many guns around? Or do they fear to be fined themselves?

It seems that nobody cares at all.

After driving in Koh Samui for 10 years, I can tell you that Nobody cares at all!! Never, never saw a cop stop anyone for anything in 10 years!!

Now that the roads have all been improved, the motorbike's true top end speed can be achieved whenever the stupid driver feels like it.

Add some Lao Kow and some beer(and much Yaba!!) and I don't know why Thailand is only Second deadliest!

Fire 80% of the Police and no one will miss them-- worthless is not a strong enough word.

[cumgranosalum]

the removal of trees from the side and centre of roads.

Some french people did things like that in a few provinces .

u know why ?

because sometimes trees are crossing the roads ;

now there are no trees but crazy drivers continue to die in the fields

If you come off the road, which would you prefer to collide with a field or a tree?

I haven't read through the entirety of the usual 'bad Thai driving' thread, it usually misses out the parts where the farang element come here and take on the worst aspects of Thai driving as they can't drive like maniacs/carelessly without consequence (a post by some disgruntled farang in the Pattaya forum who'd hit a Thai woman motorcycle driver whilst not checking traffic as he sped away from a 7/11 and then being asked for reparation springs to mind), oh and my French neighbours who, having returned from a trip to their home country were so happy to be back in Thailand as they could drive as fast as they like without being stopped - apparently quite often by the gendarmerie. But has it seriously been suggested that trees be removed from the sides/central reservations of roads because some muppet might drive into one? Seriously? How about they move all the elephants out of Khao Yai park so they don't interfere with the bloody traffic whilst they're about it? I dunno, there's quite possibly not a natural roadLESS space left here big enough to relocate them to, so how about just shooting them all? Christ. Some of you ..

You will see hardly any trees in central reservations in UK and other European countries with low accident figures. Tree that are there are surrounded by Armco barriers. Inappropriate roadside "furniture" can be a direct cause of death. If someone loses control of their car for whatever reason and leaves the road, they can safely come to rest in an open and uncluttered roadside....when it is planted with trees, littered with billboards and railed off in concrete, the death rate is bound to increase. The absence of trees and other obstacles is typically something drivers "at home" don't notice...so it doesn't register in Thailand either.

[cumgranosalum]

We have a "government" whose primary reason for existing and whole focus is on making sure the masses never get the chance to elect a government of their choice again and yet something like this, which kills tens of thousands of Thai citizens yearly is ignored. When exactly does reform of the police begin? That would be a primary solution to much of this bloodshed. Never is the probable answer sadly.

well, before we had a government ruled by a rich businessman, whose primary reason for existing was to (successfully) exploit the country - is that any better? And the death toll on the roads was same as it is now. So what ??? it does not matter who rules the country, as they will never learn anyway.....

"the death toll on the roads was same as it is now." Really?? ..and what information have you based that on?

I think however it is very important to look at the past when it comes to road safety in Thailand

Successive governments have failed to address the problems on so many levels, it is just a litany of what NOT to do...the road-building, manufacture of pickups, lack of concern for EVERY aspect of motoring...everything done on the cheap, partly due to planning and partly through corruption...it is a disaster that builds and builds, whilst other countries are reducing the problem successive Thai governments have ignored it.....one factor is COST - which is a joke - it just sums up how ignorant the people running the country can be.

Road safety (lack of it) cost Thailand HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of baht every year...it is estimated to equal 3% of the economy....... and with some capital expenditure it could be eliminated almost totally AND in a very short time.

There are road safety organisations in Thailand and there is a road safety policy issued from ASEAN but although they talk the talk, no-one in intelligent enough - as yet - to walk the walk.....

[BngkkB]

I have a "Hi-So" lady doctor at the end of my soi. She drives like a bat out of he'll down our small soi, never wears a seat belt and more than half the time she has a small baby on her lap. She is wealthy so she is always right and can't get hurt. Feel sorry for either her kid or the one she will run over.

[cumgranosalum]

I have a "Hi-So" lady doctor at the end of my soi. She drives like a bat out of he'll down our small soi, never wears a seat belt and more than half the time she has a small baby on her lap. She is wealthy so she is always right and can't get hurt. Feel sorry for either her kid or the one she will run over.

..and yet people still sing the praises of the Thai medical industry....would you trust her to decide your fate?

[brling]

so you are suggesting that the Thai people are less capable than thew rest of the world at understanding SPEED?? - this I take it is basing your theories of road safety on race? I think you're on thin ice with that theory.

Yes hte Thai are VERY careless and don't see danger. Even at high speed they pass eachother very close, brake at the very last moment, pass eachother with high speed very close from the backside, cut eachother off very easy and so on.

Have you never noticed that? Also they don't give a dime for motorbikers, it seems like they always have to stop for a car coming out of a sidestreet or fuelstation.

so this is a racially-based explanation of the road safety figures in Thailand?

So why don't you tell everyone here why Thailand has the second highest road fatalities? Are you suggesting they are very capable at understanding driving safety?

The Thai apologists like "cumgranosalum" do not believe that Thailand has the second highest fatalities. They say it is "racially based, / Thai bashing. Even the Thai people do not want to defend their stupid drivers.

[ClutchClark]

I recall two separate incidents where bicyclists who had pedaled around most of the world were each run down and died here on Thailand roadways.

I may be wrong but I think in one accident, both the man and woman were killed while riding...and they had logged like 20K miles.

[cumgranosalum]

I recall two separate incidents where bicyclists who had pedaled around most of the world were each run down and died here on Thailand roadways.

I may be wrong but I think in one accident, both the man and woman were killed while riding...and they had logged like 20K miles.

so you are inferring that this is indicative of what?

[cumgranosalum]

"The Thai apologists like "cumgranosalum" do not believe that Thailand has the second-highest fatalities."

- what a profoundly daft thing to say. please show me where you get that impression from and while you are at it perhaps you'd like to show where I "apologise" for Thailand.

This kind of deeply ill-informed "thinking" - one uses the word loosely - is typical of the level of commentary by many on this thread whose grasp of road safety is nil.......actually, it's worse than that, it's downright wrong.

[ClutchClark]

I recall two separate incidents where bicyclists who had pedaled around most of the world were each run down and died here on Thailand roadways.

I may be wrong but I think in one accident, both the man and woman were killed while riding...and they had logged like 20K miles.

so you are inferring that this is indicative of what?

I am not inferring anything.

what are you inferring by asking me what I am inferring? I would prefer it if you would defer from inferring about things I refer to.

Thank you

[MZurf]

I recall two separate incidents where bicyclists who had pedaled around most of the world were each run down and died here on Thailand roadways.

I may be wrong but I think in one accident, both the man and woman were killed while riding...and they had logged like 20K miles.

so you are inferring that this is indicative of what?

I am not inferring anything.

what are you inferring by asking me what I am inferring? I would prefer it if you would defer from inferring about things I refer to.

Thank you

That should deter him!

[jerry921]

Clearly the roads are the problem. Most of them being paved and with too few potholes. Dirt roads with suspension-breaking ruts significantly reduce traffic deaths. But seriously, the development of the roads has exceeded the development of the culture, Thailand still has 3rd world attitudes about life and safety but developed world speed limits. So it's no more use blaming the culture than the roads - the real problem is the mismatch between them.

[ClutchClark]

Clearly the roads are the problem. Most of them being paved and with too few potholes. Dirt roads with suspension-breaking ruts significantly reduce traffic deaths. But seriously, the development of the roads has exceeded the development of the culture, Thailand still has 3rd world attitudes about life and safety but developed world speed limits. So it's no more use blaming the culture than the roads - the real problem is the mismatch between them.

Jerry, thanks for this very insightful post.

I fully agree with each of your observations.

Spot on.

[Assurancetourix]

Clearly the roads are the problem. ................

It's a problems among many others but not the most important .

The most important , and many members have already write it but some of them cannot or don't want to read :

The most important is EDUCATION ;

When u are educted, u know that on a dirty road you cannot speed as you are on a 4 or 6 super motorway .

When u are educated you know u must let a minimum of 30 meters between your car and the car which is in front or yours if your speed is 50 km/h;

if it is 80 km/h, the secure distance must be 50 meter; and so on ...

When you are educated, you use the flashing light

etc...