Remote Working Legalities and Requirements

[stament]

I can already hear the sighs and the groans, "oh not another similar thread"

Except I hope my read is different. I have read numerous threads on here so please dont flame me for not doing my research and I havent come across something that is my exact situation, so please bear with me or point me in the right direction of a thread that is the same,

My situation, I currently live and work in Dubai amd am married with my family residing in Thailand (Thai wife). I am from England and an currently registered non-resident UK for tax purposes.

The work I doesnt require me to be at my place of work so I was interested in exploring the opportunities of living and working in Thailand but still working directly for my Dubai employer. I have a few questions which I would like to pose, and also members might raise other questions or concerns. I am not sure if its even possbile from a Thai or Dubai legality perspective.

1/ Is this legal from a Thai perspective, if so what are the requirements?

2/ Same Q from a Dubai perspective (if any members on here would happen to know that, a stretch I know bearing in mind this isnt the Dubai forum! But hey nothing ventured nothing gained

3/ If it is legal what requirements are there from a working and tax perspective?

4/ What visa options are available to me in Thailand?

5/ Do I need to worry about the UK tax authorities? (I wouldnt be earning an income in the UK)

Thanks in anticipation

[oncearugge]

1. No. Any work undertaken in Thailand requires a Work Permit

2. No idea

3. If "working" in Thailand it must be for a Thai company/employer. Tax is paid according to the Thai Taxation laws.

4.If married to a Thai a non "O" visa based on marriage can be obtained. This can then be used to obtain a one year extension of stay which requires either 400,000 Bht in Thai bank or 40,000 Bht/month income certified by your Embassy.

5. No idea

[stament]

thanks, very useful kooks like I will need to go and visit sunbelt

[jspill]

No one's ever been prosecuted for remote online work, it's not explicitly illegal just currently in a grey area.

The UK doesn't require you to pay taxes on any income outside the UK (unlike the US).

You don't need to pay taxes in Thailand if you don't remit earnings to Thailand in the same year they're earnt.

[rwdrwdrwd]

1/ Is this legal from a Thai perspective, if so what are the requirements?

Nobody knows, depends if Thai authorities would consider what you are doing to be 'work' as defined under labour legislation, which says 'working is working'.

The only way you can be guaranteed of legality is to start a company in Thailand and run business (or some business, just enough to satisfy minimum salaries and costs in Thailand) through that, or to use an umbrella like iglu.co.th

Nobody has yet been prosecuted for earning income online for foreign entities where renumeration occurs outside of Thailand.

2/ Same Q from a Dubai perspective (if any members on here would happen to know that, a stretch I know bearing in mind this isnt the Dubai forum! But hey nothing ventured nothing gained

I don't know, but am unaware of anybody being prosecuted internationally under labour legislation for earning income online when the source of the income is a different country to that of residence. Under tax legislation may be a different matter.

3/ If it is legal what requirements are there from a working and tax perspective?

In terms of tax, any foreign income is not subject to Thai tax unless it is remitted to Thailand in the year it is earned. if it is remitted in the year earned it is subject to full Thai income tax.

If you choose to start a Thai company, you would be required to have 4 Thai employees, pay corporate tax on all income processed through the Thai company, pay income tax for yourself and your employees, and do your company books. An umbrella would be less bureaucracy, but from what I can see is actually more expensive.

4/ What visa options are available to me in Thailand?

There are no special visa options for people who earn income online unless they operate via a Thai company, in which case it would be possible to apply for a Non B visa and work permit.

5/ Do I need to worry about the UK tax authorities? (I wouldnt be earning an income in the UK)

Not if you don't source income there, and don't remit income there. The UK does not tax non UK sourced income of non residents.

[bigt3116]

No one's ever been prosecuted for remote online work, it's not explicitly illegal just currently in a grey area.

The UK doesn't require you to pay taxes on any income outside the UK (unlike the US).

You don't need to pay taxes in Thailand if you don't remit earnings to Thailand in the same year they're earnt.

That one word says it all, of course it is illegal. If the person carrying out the work is in Thailand, it requires a work permit.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Only if the Thai definition of 'work' said 'what any random person refers to as work on ThaiVisa' rather than 'work is work'. Which it doesn't.

OP - I'm out of this thread now, it will inevitably go downhill - the info I gave you in my first response is accurate.

[jspill]

That one word says it all, of course it is illegal. If the person carrying out the work is in Thailand, it requires a work permit.

Yet nothing other than the posts of some Thaivisa members states it that concretely.

The Alien Labor act for example only talks about having a Thai employer and Thai Baht salary http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0366.pdf

The persona non grata criteria say don't come here to practice forms of manual work http://www.thaivisa.com/392-0.html

[seancbk]

As someone else said the UK does not require you to pay tax on income earned outside of the UK.

You can work online in Thailand without worrying about it, just don't go around telling people that is what you are doing.

Put it this way, if you came on holiday and whilst in Thailand the company in Dubai emailed and asked you to sort out a problem, would you even consider it an issue to do what was asked?

So why is it any different if your 'holiday' is for 3 months, 6 months, 1 year...... The rules for working are based on actual physical work and work that a Thai could have done instead of you.

The rules are outdated and don't take into consideration work which is just done via email or the clicking of a few icons on a laptop screen.

[seancbk]

No one's ever been prosecuted for remote online work, it's not explicitly illegal just currently in a grey area.

The UK doesn't require you to pay taxes on any income outside the UK (unlike the US).

You don't need to pay taxes in Thailand if you don't remit earnings to Thailand in the same year they're earnt.

If you have money in your overseas account and you remit some to Thailand, how do they know a) where you earnt it; or when you earnt it

Basically they can't.

[Soutpeel]

As someone else said the UK does not require you to pay tax on income earned outside of the UK.

You can work online in Thailand without worrying about it, just don't go around telling people that is what you are doing.

Put it this way, if you came on holiday and whilst in Thailand the company in Dubai emailed and asked you to sort out a problem, would you even consider it an issue to do what was asked?

So why is it any different if your 'holiday' is for 3 months, 6 months, 1 year...... The rules for working are based on actual physical work and work that a Thai could have done instead of you.

The rules are outdated and don't take into consideration work which is just done via email or the clicking of a few icons on a laptop screen.

Funny that....i dont do phyiscal work and need and have a WP

And most of my work is done via email znd clicking a few icons on a laptop screen

And why must he not tell anybody about what he is doing ? If its not a problem

And i bet i am more of a remote worker than he is

[tribalfusion001]

This information is interesting, I work online, I don't have my own company, but I write freelance web content. I have worked in Thailand before, but the choices of jobs are quite limited, teaching or telesales, done both, don't like either.

At the moment I'm building up my online work with the intention of spending 6 months or more travelling around other countries in Southeast Asia, but having a 6 month lease of a condo in BKK as my base. With the up coming tourist visa changes, it would seem the best solution for staying in the region for longer and earning money.

A grey area is fine with me, I can't get a Non O, under 50 and I'm divorced from a Thai wife. I did read that you can work on a ED visa if it's part time work under 20 hours, so remote working would fit aswell.

[Soutpeel]

This information is interesting, I work online, I don't have my own company, but I write freelance web content. I have worked in Thailand before, but the choices of jobs are quite limited, teaching or telesales, done both, don't like either.

At the moment I'm building up my online work with the intention of spending 6 months or more travelling around other countries in Southeast Asia, but having a 6 month lease of a condo in BKK as my base. With the up coming tourist visa changes, it would seem the best solution for staying in the region for longer and earning money.

A grey area is fine with me, I can't get a Non O, under 50 and I'm divorced from a Thai wife. I did read that you can work on a ED visa if it's part time work under 20 hours, so remote working would fit aswell.

What ever you did read is factually wrong, working is prohibited on an ed visa

[oncearugge]

This information is interesting, I work online, I don't have my own company, but I write freelance web content. I have worked in Thailand before, but the choices of jobs are quite limited, teaching or telesales, done both, don't like either.

At the moment I'm building up my online work with the intention of spending 6 months or more travelling around other countries in Southeast Asia, but having a 6 month lease of a condo in BKK as my base. With the up coming tourist visa changes, it would seem the best solution for staying in the region for longer and earning money.

A grey area is fine with me, I can't get a Non O, under 50 and I'm divorced from a Thai wife. I did read that you can work on a ED visa if it's part time work under 20 hours, so remote working would fit aswell.

You.read wrong !

Working is not permitted while holding an ED visa.

[tribalfusion001]

This information is interesting, I work online, I don't have my own company, but I write freelance web content. I have worked in Thailand before, but the choices of jobs are quite limited, teaching or telesales, done both, don't like either.

At the moment I'm building up my online work with the intention of spending 6 months or more travelling around other countries in Southeast Asia, but having a 6 month lease of a condo in BKK as my base. With the up coming tourist visa changes, it would seem the best solution for staying in the region for longer and earning money.

A grey area is fine with me, I can't get a Non O, under 50 and I'm divorced from a Thai wife. I did read that you can work on a ED visa if it's part time work under 20 hours, so remote working would fit aswell.

What ever you did read is factually wrong, working is prohibited on an ed visa

Not sure where I read that bit of information. I read loads of articles of the web yesterday, I'll let my friend know that he can't work on a ED visa, he thinks he can.

This college in BKK, I thought you couldn't work on a ED, but this college says you can? Not for me, I hate teaching, rather use a laptop. http://www.thongsookinternational.com/ba-tesol.html

[oncearugge]

This information is interesting, I work online, I don't have my own company, but I write freelance web content. I have worked in Thailand before, but the choices of jobs are quite limited, teaching or telesales, done both, don't like either.

At the moment I'm building up my online work with the intention of spending 6 months or more travelling around other countries in Southeast Asia, but having a 6 month lease of a condo in BKK as my base. With the up coming tourist visa changes, it would seem the best solution for staying in the region for longer and earning money.

A grey area is fine with me, I can't get a Non O, under 50 and I'm divorced from a Thai wife. I did read that you can work on a ED visa if it's part time work under 20 hours, so remote working would fit aswell.

What ever you did read is factually wrong, working is prohibited on an ed visa

Not sure where I read that bit of information. I read loads of articles of the web yesterday, I'll let my friend know that he can't work on a ED visa, he thinks he can.

While.you are telling your friend ask about his Work Permit application !

Without a WP he would be working illegally as well as violating the terms and conditions of his visa.

[tribalfusion001]

Not sure where I read that bit of information. I read loads of articles of the web yesterday, I'll let my friend know that he can't work on a ED visa, he thinks he can.

While.you are telling your friend ask about his Work Permit application !

Without a WP he would be working illegally as well as violating the terms and conditions of his visa.

He already is, naughty boy on a tourist visa working in a school. I've told him about the crackdown on tourist visas to come next month and it's aimed at people like him!

[stament]

As someone else said the UK does not require you to pay tax on income earned outside of the UK.

You can work online in Thailand without worrying about it, just don't go around telling people that is what you are doing.

Put it this way, if you came on holiday and whilst in Thailand the company in Dubai emailed and asked you to sort out a problem, would you even consider it an issue to do what was asked?

So why is it any different if your 'holiday' is for 3 months, 6 months, 1 year...... The rules for working are based on actual physical work and work that a Thai could have done instead of you.

The rules are outdated and don't take into consideration work which is just done via email or the clicking of a few icons on a laptop screen.

Funny that....i dont do phyiscal work and need and have a WP

And most of my work is done via email znd clicking a few icons on a laptop screen

And why must he not tell anybody about what he is doing ? If its not a problem

And i bet i am more of a remote worker than he is

Who is he? Me, the OP or someone else?

[stament]

What specialists can anyone recommend sunbelt?

[stament]

I just found this which might be useful to others and confirms things already mentioned on here

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

Says that if I was in the Kingdom for over 180 days I would be deemed a resident, and I would need to pay tax on any income earned IN Thailand as well as the tax on any portion of Income I transferred into Thailand.

So from that I assume if I don't transfer any money into Thailand it would appear that I wouldn't be liable for any tax by the letter of the law written there.

Still unclear what visa I would require. B or EX?

Think I might need to see a specialist. Surely others must be in the same position? If so has anyone been given clear and unequivocal advice from a specialist or the Thai Government?

[BritTim]

If selective about whose advice you take, some on here will give just as good information as those you pay to give it to you.

Apart from visas, you have already been told the situation:

• Working online for a foreign employer is a gray area. There is no way of acquiring a work permit for this purpose, so it can be regarded as either allowed without any conditions or legally nearly impossible. In practice, it is tolerated if not toally legal.
• In practice, you can do it tax free. Be careful to transfer money into Thailand from a different account from that you use to receive income. That way you cannot be accused of transferring in money earned in the same year. If you actually want to pay tax, you will need to consult a specialist.
• The UK does not care, as a non resident, how you are employed or taxed.
• We do not know the rules for Dubai.

I suggest you plan on starting with tourist visas. If you are confident that you want to continue working this way for several years, consider getting a Thailand Elite PE visa (expensive, but very convenient).

[Soutpeel]

You can work for a foreign company and get a WP by setting up a thai limited company and invoice the foreign company and be fully legal with a WP

Even with the above you can do it just about tax free anyway and be perfectly legal

On the basis of the above paying minimum salary for your nationality you can get an annual extension of stay and only have to report in country, with the above you will pay a small amount of income tax and not have to worry about transferring money and the fact you have a legimate company in Thsiland may help you with your dealings in dubai

So there you have both sides of the story

[jspill]

You can work for a foreign company and get a WP by setting up a thai limited company and invoice the foreign company and be fully legal with a WP

Even with the above you can do it just about tax free anyway and be perfectly legal

On the basis of the above paying minimum salary for your nationality you can get an annual extension of stay and only have to report in country, with the above you will pay a small amount of income tax and not have to worry about transferring money and the fact you have a legimate company in Thsiland may help you with your dealings in dubai

So there you have both sides of the story

A WP for web based work with the server and payment outside Thailand? You can't get that.

It has to be linked specifically to the work you're doing, you can't just get one and then have carte blanche to do whatever.

So your solution isn't 'legal' either.

[jspill]

Think I might need to see a specialist. Surely others must be in the same position? If so has anyone been given clear and unequivocal advice from a specialist or the Thai Government?

From another thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/726044-if-you-have-online-buisness-wouldnt-you-also-need-work-permit-if-running-in-thailand/page-3#entry7822470

Even the law firms say, it is a grey area and immigration officials are not interested on arresting online workers. You simply cannot get a work permit for online work. Period. If the customers and the money are earned outside of Thailand, they are not interested.

Many people have tried to get work permit by going to the immigration and/or labour ministry and explained their situation. The answer has been always the same, they are not interested unless you have Thai customers or selling stuff to Thais via Ebay with merchandise at your home. In any case, you need to employ 4 Thais and you cannot even own the majority of the shares of your own company, if you want a work permit.

And a few posts after that:

We have had this discussion many times before. The same Sunbelt Asia said in another thread, "working online generally does not require a work permit".

"He added that there is no “freelance” work permit, that one must be sponsored by a company. However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable."

Head of the Work Permit Department at the Labor Office Rhuchuchai Potha and Immigration Investigative Division officer Witthaya Singmanee at the Imperial Mae Ping on Wednesday, June 7, 2011.

Referring to this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/473613-working-legally-in-thailand-immigration-and-labour-departments-speaks-out/

[HikeFromLA]

That one word says it all, of course it is illegal. If the person carrying out the work is in Thailand, it requires a work permit.

A bit categorical.

This place in ChiangMai, for example, has scores of people coming to work there, every day.

http://www.punspace.com/

I doubt any of them have work permits.

The police have heard about it and looked into it, by the way, and elected to leave the situation alone.

I imagine if they found you running what looked like a business, with a team of people doing customer service for example, as is common in the Philippines, then there would be consequences.

The solo internet warrior is left alone.

Re taxes, as pointed out by others, Thailand does not tax foreign source income unless remitted to Thailand the same year.

Interestingly, although I have found no CPA or legal opinions about it, expat experience around the world seems to confirm that use of an ATM card to obtain cash does NOT constitute receiving income in-country. It apparently it is either deemed trivial, or viewed like a debit-card purchase. In other words, having the Thai bank account (which for me at least would be a major reason to GET an O Visa or whatever, should I become eligible), and then being so bold as to wire in fresh earnings, regularly from outside, would indeed trigger local tax liability.

And technically, perhaps, it might also trigger the need for a work permit. But it's still hard to imagine enforcement of the WP issue if there is no tax issue (you dont owe, or you owe and are paying), because the WP laws are intended everywhere to protect local workers. Online work is seen as innocuous.

The OP should feel free to work online in Thailand, provided he does not wire in fresh earnings.

[tribalfusion001]

That one word says it all, of course it is illegal. If the person carrying out the work is in Thailand, it requires a work permit.

A bit categorical.

This place in ChiangMai, for example, has scores of people coming to work there, every day.

http://www.punspace.com/

I doubt any of them have work permits.

The police have heard about it and looked into it, by the way, and elected to leave the situation alone.

I imagine if they found you running what looked like a business, with a team of people doing customer service for example, as is common in the Philippines, then their would be consequences.

The solo internet warrior is left alone.

Re taxes, as pointed out by others, Thailand does not tax foreign source income unless remitted to Thailand the same year.

Interestingly, although I have found no CPA or legal opinions about it, expat experience around the world seems to confirm that use of an ATM card to obtain cash does NOT constitute receiving income in-country. It apparently it is either deemed trivial, or viewed like a debit-card purchase. In other words, having the Thai bank account (which for me at least would be a major reason to GET an O Visa or whatever, should I become eligible), and then being so bold as to wire in fresh earnings, regularly from outside, would indeed trigger local tax liability.

And technically, perhaps, it might also trigger the need for a work permit. But it's still hard to imagine enforcement of the WP issue if there is no tax issue (you dont owe, or you owe and are paying), because the WP laws are intended everywhere to protect local workers. Online work is seen as innocuous.

The OP should feel free to work online in Thailand, provided he does not wire in fresh earnings.

That looks a pretty cool place, but surely working on your own laptop would be the better option!

[gk10002000]

Disregarding work issue or Work Permits, or legalities for a moment, The Long term stay options could be 1: marriage, 2: "retirement" if you are over 50. 3: Thai Elite Visa.

[stament]

You can work for a foreign company and get a WP by setting up a thai limited company and invoice the foreign company and be fully legal with a WP

Even with the above you can do it just about tax free anyway and be perfectly legal

On the basis of the above paying minimum salary for your nationality you can get an annual extension of stay and only have to report in country, with the above you will pay a small amount of income tax and not have to worry about transferring money and the fact you have a legimate company in Thsiland may help you with your dealings in dubai

So there you have both sides of the story

My main concern is being legal not avoiding tax let me be clear on that. Happy to pay tax, if one can ever say they are happy paying tax, but would obviously seek to mitigate this legally.

Some good responses on here, many thanks everyone. This doesn't seem to be a simple case of black and white.

[stament]

Disregarding work issue or Work Permits, or legalities for a moment, The Long term stay options could be 1: marriage, 2: "retirement" if you are over 50. 3: Thai Elite Visa.

I am married already as mentioned. Which visa should I apply for then?

[BritTim]

Married to a Thai wife, you have two options:

• Following an initial Non-O visa to visit your wife, you can get one-year extensions of stay, showing either income or 400,000 baht in a Thai bank account. Depending on the immigration office, the one year extensions can end up being irritating with various conditions that must be met.
• You can get one-year, multiple-entry Non-O visas based on marriage from the Thai consulate in Savannakhet Laos. With this, you must leave the country every 90 days. If you are planning periodc work trips to HQ, I would suggest this as a simpler option.