Koh Tao Murders: Defense Asks Court to Drop Charges

HUH · October 28, 2015

What is more important, prosecuting those who actually committed the crime or allowing the RTP cock ups to jeopardise the proper outcome.

I want those who carried out the heinous crimes to pay for it.

Anyone remember George Davis of 'free George Davis' infamy? or OJ Simpson who initially got off with a murder he obviously committed because a glove was too small to for his hand.

Fortunately both committed further crimes soon after of armed robbery and kidnap, plus I believe, OJ was found guilty in a civil court.

Too many criminals/murderers get off through technicalities and I hope that these two don't join the list!!

Criminals have also in the past saved themselves from extradition because their extradition orders weren't word perfect and were voided due to a minor technicality such as 1 letter in their name missing, do you agree with this?!!

What never ceases to amaze me is that in many instances people have argued that the outcome of the OJ trial (AKA a miscarriage of justice) would be a good thing to happen on this case.

The defense (or at least the MWRN) made it perfectly clear that their strategy was going to be to discredit the Thai police and judicial system and have the case being judged in the "court of public opinion", basically those guys are bad, therefore our guys must be innocent, which was also the strategy of the OJ defense lawyers.

Of course there's a tiny little difference between the cases... here there's a judge making a ruling, not a jury that can be more easily swayed by appeals to emotion and prejudices.

In any case that strategy reflects more the interests of the MWRN than those of the two defendants; as exemplified, IMO, on the priority they put on the torture allegations rather than on the key DNA evidence on which the case is built on.

Not just the defense or MWRN but some very significant and credible organizations

Sam Zarifi ‏@SZarifi

#KohTao trial is for justice for Hannah Witheridge & David Miller. Not possible if suspects tortured, says @ICJ_org http://news.sky.com/story/1545513/backpacker-accused-i-was-tortured-naked …

Kingsley Abbott ‏@AbbottKingsley

Kingsley Abbott Retweeted Andy Hall

#Thailand has duty 2 carry out effective & impartial investigation & if proven provide remedies and reparation

46b53953341d67d49233703d397e1f17_bigger.

Phil Robertson ‏@Reaproy

Phil Robertson Retweeted Andy Hall

#Thailand must abide by it's commitments under Convention against #Torture ratified by #Bangkok - no excuses!

StealthEnergiser · October 28, 2015

Another well known expert that showed concern was Jane Taupin who gave up her time to assist the defence.

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Day 19 Koh Tao murder trial ending after 3 Myanmar embassy officials gave testimony on their engagement on the case and Myanmar language

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Ian Yarwood ‏@IanYarwood_Law Sep 25

@Atomicalandy Jane Taupin Australian DNA-collection expert deserves HUGE thanks for going to Samui pro bono.Police never gave access to doc

Here is one of Jane's Books if anyone wants to check her qualifications.

https://www.bookdepository.com/Introduction-Forensic-DNA-Evidence-for-Criminal-Justice-Professionals-Jane-Moira-Taupin/9781439899090

smedly · October 28, 2015

Most of you members are older than me but this murder investigation, the unexpected and expected twists and turns, the debates and heated conversations which sometimes brought us all to the brink, have aged us all. The diversity of opinions made us research for ammunition to shoot each other's theories to death or give life to them. Each of us invested time and deprived ourselves sleep because this case was important to us as it should be. We are attached to this but suffer less than the families of the victims. Katherine Horton father suffered a a mental collapse and was later accuse of rape, in his home country, but later cleared of the charges. My heart goes out to Hannah and David family. Not only do parents, brothers and sister lose their loved ones but sometimes are shattered and lose themselves. I feel old... Nevertheless... Thank you to each and every member who contributed to the conversation. I have come to respect you all.

98% of people posting on these threads understand a few fundamentals when the police investigate and prosecute a crime.

1. They must provide verifiable evidence to support a claim or accusation - in most murder cases this is physical evidence including DNA - murder weapon - forensics etc

2. Accused have a right to council when being interviewed

3. A motive

If they had ticked the boxes above then things would have been different, as it is there nothing to say the police have not made it all up and that is the problem, further it also seems they ignored some very obvious lines of investigation.

There are posters on these threads that have professional experience of such matters

For a very long time I have never said that B2 were innocent but I have also said that I have never seen anything that would convince me of guilt - nothing

boomerangutang · October 28, 2015

It's because of Jane Taupin's stellar reputation as a forensic scientist - that she was stymied by the RTP and prosecution. There's no way they want to be shown (again) how inept they are. All they had to do was withhold basic DNA data and presto!, no bothersome expert showed up in court. Similar to RTP not showing up when requested, 3 times, by Thailand's Human Rights Commission.

CharlieH · October 28, 2015

Some posts removed, other edited.

11) You will not post slurs, degrading or overly negative comments directed towards Thailand, specific locations, Thai institutions such as the judicial or law enforcement system, Thai culture, Thai people or any other group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

In short, and more directly, STOP making accusations.

Gweiloman · October 28, 2015

I guess their semen found inside Miss Witheridge counts for nothing . At least they should be found guilty of rape and necrophilia .

Thailand risks being dubbed an unsafe holiday destination ; if you go there you have been warned and do it at your own risk .

With all the twists and turns of prosecutors , defense , police and forensics , I still believe that these to Baby Faced lads are guilty of murder .

They very may well be, but the evidence to convict is questionable.

What is more important, prosecuting those who actually committed the crime or allowing the RTP cock ups to jeopardise the proper outcome.

I want those who carried out the heinous crimes to pay for it.

Anyone remember George Davis of 'free George Davis' infamy? or OJ Simpson who initially got off with a murder he obviously committed because a glove was too small to for his hand.

Fortunately both committed further crimes soon after of armed robbery and kidnap, plus I believe, OJ was found guilty in a civil court.

Too many criminals/murderers get off through technicalities and I hope that these two don't join the list!!

Criminals have also in the past saved themselves from extradition because their extradition orders weren't word perfect and were voided due to a minor technicality such as 1 letter in their name missing, do you agree with this?!!

What never ceases to amaze me is that in many instances people have argued that the outcome of the OJ trial (AKA a miscarriage of justice) would be a good thing to happen on this case.

The defense (or at least the MWRN) made it perfectly clear that their strategy was going to be to discredit the Thai police and judicial system and have the case being judged in the "court of public opinion", basically those guys are bad, therefore our guys must be innocent, which was also the strategy of the OJ defense lawyers.

Of course there's a tiny little difference between the cases... here there's a judge making a ruling, not a jury that can be more easily swayed by appeals to emotion and prejudices.

In any case that strategy reflects more the interests of the MWRN than those of the two defendants; as exemplified, IMO, on the priority they put on the torture allegations rather than on the key DNA evidence on which the case is built on.

AFAIK, you're the only poster that has introduced OJ into these proceedings.

As to the defense and MWRN making clear their strategy, it seems like you're also the only poster to have arrived at this conclusion.

In any case, the fact of the matter is that the MWRN plus hundreds of thousands of normal people do not believe that the B2 are guilty as, for starters, there is no DNA evidence whatsoever.

cdnvic · October 28, 2015

Please just discuss the topic. If you don't want to see it, then nobody is forcing you to read it. Any further discussions regarding closing the topic will be binned. Attempts to derail the topic will result in the offenders being removed.

10) Do not discuss moderation publicly in the open forum; this includes individual actions, and specific or general policies and issues.

smedly · October 29, 2015

the OJ case has absolutly no place here, some very cleaver lawyers punched a few holes that most smart people know was nonesense, oh the cop wore his left rubber clove on his right hand (just a fictional example), you have a "jury" that was mostly hit with trivial BS but it was enough for one or two of them to cause doubt, a very well orchestrated defence that brought into question some very minor proceedural errors, the police very clearly made these errors but it should never in a month of Sundays been enough to cause any doubt, we all know that

That is a massive difference from what we have seen take place here, police have yet to submit any evidence to question, everything they presented to court was verbal, imagine (since it has been brought up) the OJ prosecutors stating - we have all this evidence exibit A B C D E F G but we are unable to produce any of it .....seriously

The OJ case has no place here and we all know it

boomerangutang · October 29, 2015

Who is doing anything to try and find the murderers?

RTP? No. They refuse to even consider or mention the most likely culprits.

Prosecution? No. They can only do what RTP tell them to do.

Headman and his friends/family on the island? No.

Defense? No. Their job is to defend the defendants.

Court? No. Their job is only to listen to prosecution and defense arguments.

British experts? No. They haven't released findings on David's autopsy and haven't interviewed Sean, as far as we know.

Who is left to try and find the criminals? Only us concerned folks on social media, and much of what we're sifting through are lies and skewed data. It's sad when citizens can't rely upon the people who are paid to protect them - to do their jobs.

boomerangutang · October 29, 2015

Sometimes, what is missing is most revealing.

- several witnesses who didn't appear in court -

Mr. Panya. He was the lead investigative policeman. His findings, based on evidence, pointed to two prime suspects (not the Burmese scapegoats). He was abruptly replaced, promoted and sent to a desk job in Bkk. Did that also erase (from his brain) all his expertise and findings from the crime scene? Apparently he instantly became useless to the investigation because RTP want to hear nothing more from him since two weeks after the crime.

Sean. Mon insinuated Sean was involved in the crime. Sean had a fresh wound which matched David's multiple stab wounds, and had blood on his guitar. Yet RTP sent Sean away a.s.a.p. Surely he knows some things about the crime. And just as surely, Sean was told not to say anything about the crime to anybody. (probably similar to Panya)

Muang Muang (MM1): When he first surfaced, he was the 3rd scapegoat along with the B2. Both the prosecution and defense claimed he knew key factors about that night, and he was shown on several CCTV clips in the vicinity (and near the time) of the crime. Yet he wasn't mentioned at the trial.

There are several others who could have been witnesses to the crime, but were never mentioned by the prosecution: MM2, another Burmese young man who, along with MM1, scooted off to Burma days after the crime. He said he was with a former prime suspect that night. And there is the mystery couple (heavy farang man with small Asian woman) shown in Running Man video, and also the two French backpackers who claimed to have heard distressing sounds from the crime scene.

Were any of the above-mentioned people sought by RTP or the prosecution to testify in the trial? Apparently not. Connect the dots.

apetley · October 29, 2015

I guess their semen found inside Miss Witheridge counts for nothing . At least they should be found guilty of rape and necrophilia .

Thailand risks being dubbed an unsafe holiday destination ; if you go there you have been warned and do it at your own risk .

With all the twists and turns of prosecutors , defense , police and forensics , I still believe that these to Baby Faced lads are guilty of murder .

They very may well be, but the evidence to convict is questionable.

What is more important, prosecuting those who actually committed the crime or allowing the RTP cock ups to jeopardise the proper outcome.
I want those who carried out the heinous crimes to pay for it.

Anyone remember George Davis of 'free George Davis' infamy? or OJ Simpson who initially got off with a murder he obviously committed because a glove was too small to for his hand.

Fortunately both committed further crimes soon after of armed robbery and kidnap, plus I believe, OJ was found guilty in a civil court.

Too many criminals/murderers get off through technicalities and I hope that these two don't join the list!!

Criminals have also in the past saved themselves from extradition because their extradition orders weren't word perfect and were voided due to a minor technicality such as 1 letter in their name missing, do you agree with this?!!

What never ceases to amaze me is that in many instances people have argued that the outcome of the OJ trial (AKA a miscarriage of justice) would be a good thing to happen on this case.

The defense (or at least the MWRN) made it perfectly clear that their strategy was going to be to discredit the Thai police and judicial system and have the case being judged in the "court of public opinion", basically those guys are bad, therefore our guys must be innocent, which was also the strategy of the OJ defense lawyers.

Of course there's a tiny little difference between the cases... here there's a judge making a ruling, not a jury that can be more easily swayed by appeals to emotion and prejudices.

In any case that strategy reflects more the interests of the MWRN than those of the two defendants; as exemplified, IMO, on the priority they put on the torture allegations rather than on the key DNA evidence on which the case is built on.

Key DNA evidence?

The head of the Police Forensic Unit in BKK is on record as saying all the testing was blind, didn't get any reports of who the test DNA belonged to which left control out of their hands and so removed the normal safeguards against switching.

B166ER · October 29, 2015

....who is this Cabal on that island that wields so much power? How far (up?) does the rabbit hole go? How much (as one TVer eloquently put it) "skull" can they lose? A lot of eyes are on the suspects....oh, and they ain't wearing prison browns....

AleG · October 29, 2015

What never ceases to amaze me is that in many instances people have argued that the outcome of the OJ trial (AKA a miscarriage of justice) would be a good thing to happen on this case.
The defense (or at least the MWRN) made it perfectly clear that their strategy was going to be to discredit the Thai police and judicial system and have the case being judged in the "court of public opinion", basically those guys are bad, therefore our guys must be innocent, which was also the strategy of the OJ defense lawyers.

Of course there's a tiny little difference between the cases... here there's a judge making a ruling, not a jury that can be more easily swayed by appeals to emotion and prejudices.

In any case that strategy reflects more the interests of the MWRN than those of the two defendants; as exemplified, IMO, on the priority they put on the torture allegations rather than on the key DNA evidence on which the case is built on.

AFAIK, you're the only poster that has introduced OJ into these proceedings.

As to the defense and MWRN making clear their strategy, it seems like you're also the only poster to have arrived at this conclusion.

In any case, the fact of the matter is that the MWRN plus hundreds of thousands of normal people do not believe that the B2 are guilty as, for starters, there is no DNA evidence whatsoever.

"AFAIK, you're the only poster that has introduced OJ into these proceedings."

No I wasn't, that would be (on this particular thread) idiablo a day before my previous post:

If the glove doesn't fit, than you must acquit.

"As to the defense and MWRN making clear their strategy, it seems like you're also the only poster to have arrived at this conclusion."

That's because maybe I'm paying more attention than other people.

"In any case, the fact of the matter is that the MWRN plus hundreds of thousands of normal people do not believe that the B2 are guilty as, for starters, there is no DNA evidence whatsoever."

As I pointed out before, this is from a discussion on Andy Hall's own FB page:

Andy Hall:

"So Koh Tao trial result/verdict seems to me personally (personal opinion based on what I have seen) to come down to court's position on the reliability of the police DNA evidence/results based on the evidence present to court"

Robert Holmes The problem with the DNA evidence retrieved from the victim is that the prosecution have presented the court with evidence that the DNA from the accused matches the DNA retrieved from the victim. The onus is then on the defence to cross examine the forensic scientists who analysed the samples and to call evidence from an expert as to the international standard universally applied for the proper analysis of such samples. In my opinion that has not been done and if there is a conviction it will be because of that. There's plenty of doubt but the fact remains there is a DNA analysis report on the court record and the judges have to get their

collective heads around the fact that it shows a match....that evidence needed to be strongly contested and in my view it hasn't been.The prosecution will rely on that, mark my words.The evidence of Khun ying Pornthip does not negate the alleged DNA match....This whole case revolves around that. In any other competent jurisdiction the defence would have vigorously cross examined the prosecution forensic witnesses as to their procedures and would have required them to produce their case notes and all other relevant documentation. This simply has not happened in this case.

Robert Holmes Sorry Terry you aren't correct. The Prosecution gave evidence that there was a positive match between DNA samples taken from the accused and DNA retrieved from the victim. That's a fact. My point is that there was an opportunity for the defence to completely destroy the police forensic methods....This was not done. The police produced documentation in support but there was no proper cross examination of the witnesses themselves. To say that the prosecution didn't produce any DNA evidence is erroneous. What they police didn't do is produce their case notes showing how they came to their conclusions. This should have been tested in cross examination....and it wasn't.

That's a lot of talk about evidence that you, and others, insist doesn't exist.

AleG · October 29, 2015

What never ceases to amaze me is that in many instances people have argued that the outcome of the OJ trial (AKA a miscarriage of justice) would be a good thing to happen on this case.
The defense (or at least the MWRN) made it perfectly clear that their strategy was going to be to discredit the Thai police and judicial system and have the case being judged in the "court of public opinion", basically those guys are bad, therefore our guys must be innocent, which was also the strategy of the OJ defense lawyers.

Of course there's a tiny little difference between the cases... here there's a judge making a ruling, not a jury that can be more easily swayed by appeals to emotion and prejudices.

In any case that strategy reflects more the interests of the MWRN than those of the two defendants; as exemplified, IMO, on the priority they put on the torture allegations rather than on the key DNA evidence on which the case is built on.

Key DNA evidence?

The head of the Police Forensic Unit in BKK is on record as saying all the testing was blind, didn't get any reports of who the test DNA belonged to which left control out of their hands and so removed the normal safeguards against switching.

Yes, he said that about the mass testing done before the two defendants were arrested (BP article "Murder probe DNA testing ‘nearly done’"), you are conflating things.

smedly · October 29, 2015

....who is this Cabal on that island that wields so much power? How far (up?) does the rabbit hole go? How much (as one TVer eloquently put it) "skull" can they lose? A lot of eyes are on the suspects....oh, and they ain't wearing prison browns....

In Thailand money talks and weilds the power

A street vendor will set himself on fire for 1 million baht

There are some that have morals and can not be bought, they may not be around to tell their story

smedly · October 29, 2015

AFAIK, you're the only poster that has introduced OJ into these proceedings.

As to the defense and MWRN making clear their strategy, it seems like you're also the only poster to have arrived at this conclusion.

In any case, the fact of the matter is that the MWRN plus hundreds of thousands of normal people do not believe that the B2 are guilty as, for starters, there is no DNA evidence whatsoever.

"AFAIK, you're the only poster that has introduced OJ into these proceedings."

No I wasn't, that would be (on this particular thread) idiablo a day before my previous post:

If the glove doesn't fit, than you must acquit.

"As to the defense and MWRN making clear their strategy, it seems like you're also the only poster to have arrived at this conclusion."

That's because maybe I'm paying more attention than other people.

"In any case, the fact of the matter is that the MWRN plus hundreds of thousands of normal people do not believe that the B2 are guilty as, for starters, there is no DNA evidence whatsoever."

As I pointed out before, this is from a discussion on Andy Hall's own FB page:

Andy Hall:

"So Koh Tao trial result/verdict seems to me personally (personal opinion based on what I have seen) to come down to court's position on the reliability of the police DNA evidence/results based on the evidence present to court"

Robert Holmes The problem with the DNA evidence retrieved from the victim is that the prosecution have presented the court with evidence that the DNA from the accused matches the DNA retrieved from the victim. The onus is then on the defence to cross examine the forensic scientists who analysed the samples and to call evidence from an expert as to the international standard universally applied for the proper analysis of such samples. In my opinion that has not been done and if there is a conviction it will be because of that. There's plenty of doubt but the fact remains there is a DNA analysis report on the court record and the judges have to get their

collective heads around the fact that it shows a match....that evidence needed to be strongly contested and in my view it hasn't been.The prosecution will rely on that, mark my words.The evidence of Khun ying Pornthip does not negate the alleged DNA match....This whole case revolves around that. In any other competent jurisdiction the defence would have vigorously cross examined the prosecution forensic witnesses as to their procedures and would have required them to produce their case notes and all other relevant documentation. This simply has not happened in this case.

Robert Holmes Sorry Terry you aren't correct. The Prosecution gave evidence that there was a positive match between DNA samples taken from the accused and DNA retrieved from the victim. That's a fact. My point is that there was an opportunity for the defence to completely destroy the police forensic methods....This was not done. The police produced documentation in support but there was no proper cross examination of the witnesses themselves. To say that the prosecution didn't produce any DNA evidence is erroneous. What they police didn't do is produce their case notes showing how they came to their conclusions. This should have been tested in cross examination....and it wasn't.

That's a lot of talk about evidence that you, and others, insist doesn't exist.

show me and I will believe, where is it ?

you keep claiming like the police that there is DNA evidence, show it to me, impossible for such a plentiful sample to have been exhausted, where is it ????????????

AleG · October 29, 2015

"AFAIK, you're the only poster that has introduced OJ into these proceedings."
No I wasn't, that would be (on this particular thread) idiablo a day before my previous post:

If the glove doesn't fit, than you must acquit.

"As to the defense and MWRN making clear their strategy, it seems like you're also the only poster to have arrived at this conclusion."

That's because maybe I'm paying more attention than other people.

"In any case, the fact of the matter is that the MWRN plus hundreds of thousands of normal people do not believe that the B2 are guilty as, for starters, there is no DNA evidence whatsoever."

As I pointed out before, this is from a discussion on Andy Hall's own FB page:

Andy Hall:

"So Koh Tao trial result/verdict seems to me personally (personal opinion based on what I have seen) to come down to court's position on the reliability of the police DNA evidence/results based on the evidence present to court"

Robert Holmes The problem with the DNA evidence retrieved from the victim is that the prosecution have presented the court with evidence that the DNA from the accused matches the DNA retrieved from the victim. The onus is then on the defence to cross examine the forensic scientists who analysed the samples and to call evidence from an expert as to the international standard universally applied for the proper analysis of such samples. In my opinion that has not been done and if there is a conviction it will be because of that. There's plenty of doubt but the fact remains there is a DNA analysis report on the court record and the judges have to get their

collective heads around the fact that it shows a match....that evidence needed to be strongly contested and in my view it hasn't been.The prosecution will rely on that, mark my words.The evidence of Khun ying Pornthip does not negate the alleged DNA match....This whole case revolves around that. In any other competent jurisdiction the defence would have vigorously cross examined the prosecution forensic witnesses as to their procedures and would have required them to produce their case notes and all other relevant documentation. This simply has not happened in this case.

Robert Holmes Sorry Terry you aren't correct. The Prosecution gave evidence that there was a positive match between DNA samples taken from the accused and DNA retrieved from the victim. That's a fact. My point is that there was an opportunity for the defence to completely destroy the police forensic methods....This was not done. The police produced documentation in support but there was no proper cross examination of the witnesses themselves. To say that the prosecution didn't produce any DNA evidence is erroneous. What they police didn't do is produce their case notes showing how they came to their conclusions. This should have been tested in cross examination....and it wasn't.

That's a lot of talk about evidence that you, and others, insist doesn't exist.

show me and I will believe, where is it ?

you keep claiming like the police that there is DNA evidence, show it to me, impossible for such a plentiful sample to have been exhausted, where is it ????????????

"show me and I will believe, where is it ?"

Yes, sure, let me get them out of my fridge...

BANGKOK, 10 July 2015 (NNT) – The Royal Thai Police chief has clarified that the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case had been stored at the Institute of Forensic Medicine, quelling allegations that the evidence was lost during investigation.

The Royal Thai Police Commissioner-General Pol Gen Somyot Pumpunmuang, addressed a misunderstanding about the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case, giving an assurance that the evidence was not lost.

He cited the Provincial Police Region 8 Commissioner, stating that all collected DNA samples from the date of the incident had been sent to the Institute of Forensic Medicine by investigators, before being examined by the Central Scientific Crime Detection Division.

The examination results of the DNA samples have been used to compile forensic evidence for the case's court proceedings.

Regarding the investigator’s statement to the court claiming that the samples had not been stored, the Police Chief explained that it is not the investigator's task to store the evidence, as only the examination results were required during the court procession. Lawyers can request access to the examination results directly through the court. Once the court accepts the request, a command will be issued to the police to forward the examination results to the lawyer.

So go to the Forensic Institute of Medicine and see if they have time, inclination or legal basis to entertain your demands.

Incidentally, the last paragraph "Lawyers can request access to the examination results directly through the court. Once the court accepts the request, a command will be issued to the police to forward the examination results to the lawyer."

The defense didn't request the court order to get that documentation, yet they are very vocal on not getting it.

aphuketinsider · October 29, 2015

show me and I will believe, where is it ?

That's a lot of talk about evidence that you, and others, insist doesn't exist.

you keep claiming like the police that there is DNA evidence, show it to me, impossible for such a plentiful sample to have been exhausted, where is it ????????????

"show me and I will believe, where is it ?"

Yes, sure, let me get them out of my fridge...

BANGKOK, 10 July 2015 (NNT) – The Royal Thai Police chief has clarified that the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case had been stored at the Institute of Forensic Medicine, quelling allegations that the evidence was lost during investigation.

The Royal Thai Police Commissioner-General Pol Gen Somyot Pumpunmuang, addressed a misunderstanding about the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case, giving an assurance that the evidence was not lost.

He cited the Provincial Police Region 8 Commissioner, stating that all collected DNA samples from the date of the incident had been sent to the Institute of Forensic Medicine by investigators, before being examined by the Central Scientific Crime Detection Division.

The examination results of the DNA samples have been used to compile forensic evidence for the case's court proceedings.

Regarding the investigator’s statement to the court claiming that the samples had not been stored, the Police Chief explained that it is not the investigator's task to store the evidence, as only the examination results were required during the court procession. Lawyers can request access to the examination results directly through the court. Once the court accepts the request, a command will be issued to the police to forward the examination results to the lawyer.

So go to the Forensic Institute of Medicine and see if they have time, inclination or legal basis to entertain your demands.

Incidentally, the last paragraph "Lawyers can request access to the examination results directly through the court. Once the court accepts the request, a command will be issued to the police to forward the examination results to the lawyer."

The defense didn't request the court order to get that documentation, yet they are very vocal on not getting it.

Personally I take with a large pinch of salt any statements made by the police now matter how senior they are in this case, time and time again they've been proven to be either wrong or deliberately misleading.

An example being your reference link above of the statement made by Provincial Police Region 8 Commissioner stating that all collected DNA samples from the date of the incident had been sent to the institute of Forensic Medicine. This statement was made on the 10th July

That may be true? We have a problem however, where did they put the cigarette butts? (statement by Dr Pornthip made 14th Sept)

There were previous reports that DNA found on the butt of a cigarette shared by the two suspects matched that found on the female victim’s body. Were you able to consider that evidence?

"No. Because the police said that all that evidence was destroyed already. The police said there was no evidence left to send to our institute."

http://www.irrawaddy.org/interview/dr-pornthip-victims-or-suspects-have-the-right-to-ask-for-a-second-opinion.html

I wonder if this same institute still has possession of the blonde hair that was tested early on in the case and found not to belong to the victims, Chris Ware or the current suspects. They may even know the whereabouts of Hannahs clothing and underwear.

Unlike you I do not believe everything the RTP states in this case, particularly since we now found out they deliberately mislead the UK police when they were here.

smedly · October 29, 2015

"AFAIK, you're the only poster that has introduced OJ into these proceedings."
No I wasn't, that would be (on this particular thread) idiablo a day before my previous post:

"As to the defense and MWRN making clear their strategy, it seems like you're also the only poster to have arrived at this conclusion."

That's because maybe I'm paying more attention than other people.

"In any case, the fact of the matter is that the MWRN plus hundreds of thousands of normal people do not believe that the B2 are guilty as, for starters, there is no DNA evidence whatsoever."

As I pointed out before, this is from a discussion on Andy Hall's own FB page:

Andy Hall:

"So Koh Tao trial result/verdict seems to me personally (personal opinion based on what I have seen) to come down to court's position on the reliability of the police DNA evidence/results based on the evidence present to court"

Robert Holmes The problem with the DNA evidence retrieved from the victim is that the prosecution have presented the court with evidence that the DNA from the accused matches the DNA retrieved from the victim. The onus is then on the defence to cross examine the forensic scientists who analysed the samples and to call evidence from an expert as to the international standard universally applied for the proper analysis of such samples. In my opinion that has not been done and if there is a conviction it will be because of that. There's plenty of doubt but the fact remains there is a DNA analysis report on the court record and the judges have to get their

collective heads around the fact that it shows a match....that evidence needed to be strongly contested and in my view it hasn't been.The prosecution will rely on that, mark my words.The evidence of Khun ying Pornthip does not negate the alleged DNA match....This whole case revolves around that. In any other competent jurisdiction the defence would have vigorously cross examined the prosecution forensic witnesses as to their procedures and would have required them to produce their case notes and all other relevant documentation. This simply has not happened in this case.

Robert Holmes Sorry Terry you aren't correct. The Prosecution gave evidence that there was a positive match between DNA samples taken from the accused and DNA retrieved from the victim. That's a fact. My point is that there was an opportunity for the defence to completely destroy the police forensic methods....This was not done. The police produced documentation in support but there was no proper cross examination of the witnesses themselves. To say that the prosecution didn't produce any DNA evidence is erroneous. What they police didn't do is produce their case notes showing how they came to their conclusions. This should have been tested in cross examination....and it wasn't.

That's a lot of talk about evidence that you, and others, insist doesn't exist.

show me and I will believe, where is it ?

you keep claiming like the police that there is DNA evidence, show it to me, impossible for such a plentiful sample to have been exhausted, where is it ????????????

"show me and I will believe, where is it ?"

Yes, sure, let me get them out of my fridge...

*****original samples****** could not be produced to the court or the defense for independent verification and testing, nothing else would be acceptable - only *****original samples*****

The police tried to provide processed DNA extracts that could have originally been taken from the accused and there was no way to verify the source, that is totally unacceptable for very obvious reasons, the only way to verify DNA is from the original samples taken from the body of the victim, the police could not - would not - did not provide those to the court or the defense and rightly the defense under expert advisement declined, there was no way to ascertain that the samples the police were going to provide did in fact come from the victim and no way to ascertain they were originally sperm samples.

This is very basic stuff and anyone with an intellect greater than a rodent would understand this

AleG · October 29, 2015

"show me and I will believe, where is it ?"
Yes, sure, let me get them out of my fridge...

*****original samples****** could not be produced to the court or the defense for independent verification and testing, nothing else would be acceptable - only *****original samples*****

The police tried to provide processed DNA extracts that could have originally been taken from the accused and there was no way to verify the source, that is totally unacceptable for very obvious reasons, the only way to verify DNA is from the original samples taken from the body of the victim, the police could not - would not - did not provide those to the court or the defense and rightly the defense under expert advisement declined, there was no way to ascertain that the samples the police were going to provide did in fact come from the victim and no way to ascertain they were originally sperm samples.

This is very basic stuff and anyone with an intellect greater than a rodent would understand this

All that is true because you say so?

I cited sources for my last post, how about you show one to support what you say, preferably without adding insults.

Just to save you time, quoting one of the prosecution witnesses (you know, one of those that presented the evidence that you say doesn't exist) saying that all samples are replicated does not mean that the originals are gone.

AleG · October 29, 2015

"show me and I will believe, where is it ?"

Yes, sure, let me get them out of my fridge...

BANGKOK, 10 July 2015 (NNT) – The Royal Thai Police chief has clarified that the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case had been stored at the Institute of Forensic Medicine, quelling allegations that the evidence was lost during investigation.

The Royal Thai Police Commissioner-General Pol Gen Somyot Pumpunmuang, addressed a misunderstanding about the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case, giving an assurance that the evidence was not lost.

He cited the Provincial Police Region 8 Commissioner, stating that all collected DNA samples from the date of the incident had been sent to the Institute of Forensic Medicine by investigators, before being examined by the Central Scientific Crime Detection Division.

The examination results of the DNA samples have been used to compile forensic evidence for the case's court proceedings.

Regarding the investigator’s statement to the court claiming that the samples had not been stored, the Police Chief explained that it is not the investigator's task to store the evidence, as only the examination results were required during the court procession. Lawyers can request access to the examination results directly through the court. Once the court accepts the request, a command will be issued to the police to forward the examination results to the lawyer.

So go to the Forensic Institute of Medicine and see if they have time, inclination or legal basis to entertain your demands.

Incidentally, the last paragraph "Lawyers can request access to the examination results directly through the court. Once the court accepts the request, a command will be issued to the police to forward the examination results to the lawyer."

The defense didn't request the court order to get that documentation, yet they are very vocal on not getting it.

Personally I take with a large pinch of salt any statements made by the police now matter how senior they are in this case, time and time again they've been proven to be either wrong or deliberately misleading.

An example being your reference link above of the statement made by Provincial Police Region 8 Commissioner stating that all collected DNA samples from the date of the incident had been sent to the institute of Forensic Medicine. This statement was made on the 10th July

That may be true? We have a problem however, where did they put the cigarette butts? (statement by Dr Pornthip made 14th Sept)

There were previous reports that DNA found on the butt of a cigarette shared by the two suspects matched that found on the female victim’s body. Were you able to consider that evidence?

"No. Because the police said that all that evidence was destroyed already. The police said there was no evidence left to send to our institute."

http://www.irrawaddy.org/interview/dr-pornthip-victims-or-suspects-have-the-right-to-ask-for-a-second-opinion.html

I wonder if this same institute still has possession of the blonde hair that was tested early on in the case and found not to belong to the victims, Chris Ware or the current suspects. They may even know the whereabouts of Hannahs clothing and underwear.

Unlike you I do not believe everything the RTP states in this case, particularly since we now found out they deliberately mislead the UK police when they were here.

She is referring to the DNA retrieved from the cigarette butts found at the scene, not the DNA from the victim's body on which the prosecution case is built on.

aphuketinsider · October 29, 2015

"show me and I will believe, where is it ?"

Yes, sure, let me get them out of my fridge...

BANGKOK, 10 July 2015 (NNT) – The Royal Thai Police chief has clarified that the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case had been stored at the Institute of Forensic Medicine, quelling allegations that the evidence was lost during investigation.

The Royal Thai Police Commissioner-General Pol Gen Somyot Pumpunmuang, addressed a misunderstanding about the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case, giving an assurance that the evidence was not lost.

He cited the Provincial Police Region 8 Commissioner, stating that all collected DNA samples from the date of the incident had been sent to the Institute of Forensic Medicine by investigators, before being examined by the Central Scientific Crime Detection Division.

The examination results of the DNA samples have been used to compile forensic evidence for the case's court proceedings.

Regarding the investigator’s statement to the court claiming that the samples had not been stored, the Police Chief explained that it is not the investigator's task to store the evidence, as only the examination results were required during the court procession. Lawyers can request access to the examination results directly through the court. Once the court accepts the request, a command will be issued to the police to forward the examination results to the lawyer.

So go to the Forensic Institute of Medicine and see if they have time, inclination or legal basis to entertain your demands.

Incidentally, the last paragraph "Lawyers can request access to the examination results directly through the court. Once the court accepts the request, a command will be issued to the police to forward the examination results to the lawyer."

The defense didn't request the court order to get that documentation, yet they are very vocal on not getting it.

Personally I take with a large pinch of salt any statements made by the police now matter how senior they are in this case, time and time again they've been proven to be either wrong or deliberately misleading.

An example being your reference link above of the statement made by Provincial Police Region 8 Commissioner stating that all collected DNA samples from the date of the incident had been sent to the institute of Forensic Medicine. This statement was made on the 10th July

That may be true? We have a problem however, where did they put the cigarette butts? (statement by Dr Pornthip made 14th Sept)

There were previous reports that DNA found on the butt of a cigarette shared by the two suspects matched that found on the female victim’s body. Were you able to consider that evidence?

"No. Because the police said that all that evidence was destroyed already. The police said there was no evidence left to send to our institute."

http://www.irrawaddy.org/interview/dr-pornthip-victims-or-suspects-have-the-right-to-ask-for-a-second-opinion.html

I wonder if this same institute still has possession of the blonde hair that was tested early on in the case and found not to belong to the victims, Chris Ware or the current suspects. They may even know the whereabouts of Hannahs clothing and underwear.

Unlike you I do not believe everything the RTP states in this case, particularly since we now found out they deliberately mislead the UK police when they were here.

She is referring to the DNA retrieved from the cigarette butts found at the scene, not the DNA from the victim's body on which the prosecution case is built on.

I'm aware of what she's referring to as I wrote the post. If you read the post again it is in direct contradiction to the statement made by the head of Region 8 RTP, I did highlight this to ensure it was clear. The case against the B2 is not only built from alleged DNA found in the victim.

StealthEnergiser · October 29, 2015

"show me and I will believe, where is it ?"
Yes, sure, let me get them out of my fridge...

*****original samples****** could not be produced to the court or the defense for independent verification and testing, nothing else would be acceptable - only *****original samples*****

The police tried to provide processed DNA extracts that could have originally been taken from the accused and there was no way to verify the source, that is totally unacceptable for very obvious reasons, the only way to verify DNA is from the original samples taken from the body of the victim, the police could not - would not - did not provide those to the court or the defense and rightly the defense under expert advisement declined, there was no way to ascertain that the samples the police were going to provide did in fact come from the victim and no way to ascertain they were originally sperm samples.

This is very basic stuff and anyone with an intellect greater than a rodent would understand this

All that is true because you say so?

I cited sources for my last post, how about you show one to support what you say, preferably without adding insults.

Just to save you time, quoting one of the prosecution witnesses (you know, one of those that presented the evidence that you say doesn't exist) saying that all samples are replicated does not mean that the originals are gone.

Bit hard to believe prosecution witnesses when they lie under oath

From the trial: Under oath Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod stated he had spoken to the pathologist on the 2nd and 3rd Oct but after that had no further contact with him. The defense then produced a statement from the pathologist stating that Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod had made two separate trips to meet him in late Oct and another on 18th Nov. The pathologist’s statement confirmed they talked about the hair found in Hannah’a hand. When challenged about this Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod then admitted he had had further discussions with the pathologist but would not reveal what was said between them. http://www.eveningne...rce=twitterfeed

stephenterry · October 29, 2015

"show me and I will believe, where is it ?"
Yes, sure, let me get them out of my fridge...

*****original samples****** could not be produced to the court or the defense for independent verification and testing, nothing else would be acceptable - only *****original samples*****

The police tried to provide processed DNA extracts that could have originally been taken from the accused and there was no way to verify the source, that is totally unacceptable for very obvious reasons, the only way to verify DNA is from the original samples taken from the body of the victim, the police could not - would not - did not provide those to the court or the defense and rightly the defense under expert advisement declined, there was no way to ascertain that the samples the police were going to provide did in fact come from the victim and no way to ascertain they were originally sperm samples.

This is very basic stuff and anyone with an intellect greater than a rodent would understand this

All that is true because you say so?

I cited sources for my last post, how about you show one to support what you say, preferably without adding insults.

Just to save you time, quoting one of the prosecution witnesses (you know, one of those that presented the evidence that you say doesn't exist) saying that all samples are replicated does not mean that the originals are gone.

Bit hard to believe prosecution witnesses when they lie under oath

From the trial: Under oath Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod stated he had spoken to the pathologist on the 2nd and 3rd Oct but after that had no further contact with him. The defense then produced a statement from the pathologist stating that Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod had made two separate trips to meet him in late Oct and another on 18th Nov. The pathologist’s statement confirmed they talked about the hair found in Hannah’a hand. When challenged about this Lieutenant Colonel Somsak Nurod then admitted he had had further discussions with the pathologist but would not reveal what was said between them. http://www.eveningne...rce=twitterfeed

Re the highlighted sentence. Only two extra trips. I guess it wasn't very important, then? Heck, only a blonde hair found clutched in the victim's hand. Words fail to express the utter contempt I have for this witness who has committed perjury and a cover-up of crucial evidence.

spidermike007 · October 29, 2015

Are the bookies taking bets on this and what are the odds. I would imagine about 100-1 they are found guilty.

We'll see , I believe they will be acquitted based on the lack of evidence.

Acquitting them would be admitting the police bungled the job. It would also be a near admission of Nasty Nomsods guilt. Since his family is well above the law, that is not a permitted option.

stephenterry · October 29, 2015

Are the bookies taking bets on this and what are the odds. I would imagine about 100-1 they are found guilty.

We'll see , I believe they will be acquitted based on the lack of evidence.

Acquitting them would be admitting the police bungled the job. It would also be a near admission of Nasty Nomsods guilt. Since his family is well above the law, that is not a permitted option.

Whatever the verdict (and I look forward to reading on what basis the judges reached their conclusions) it is likely that it will be appealed. Why? Because the defence has submitted a closing statement that also highlights the prosecution's legal mistakes made in presenting their case. That is prima facie evidence that an appeal is likely.

Here's my take on it.

1. Guilty on all charges,

2. Shocks/horror/disgust all round.

3. Defence submits appeal.

4. Appeals court accept case.

5. Overturns verdict.

6. Prosecution contests new ruling and submits to Supreme court.

7. Supreme court upholds original verdict (as has been the actuality in several previous cases).

8. The execution sentences are reduced to life imprisonment without parole.

Time frame - several years. In which time several more unusual deaths have occurred on Koh Tao.

I hope I am totally wrong on all counts.

fritzzz25 · October 29, 2015

"show me and I will believe, where is it ?"

Yes, sure, let me get them out of my fridge...

BANGKOK, 10 July 2015 (NNT) – The Royal Thai Police chief has clarified that the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case had been stored at the Institute of Forensic Medicine, quelling allegations that the evidence was lost during investigation.

The Royal Thai Police Commissioner-General Pol Gen Somyot Pumpunmuang, addressed a misunderstanding about the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case, giving an assurance that the evidence was not lost.

He cited the Provincial Police Region 8 Commissioner, stating that all collected DNA samples from the date of the incident had been sent to the Institute of Forensic Medicine by investigators, before being examined by the Central Scientific Crime Detection Division.

The examination results of the DNA samples have been used to compile forensic evidence for the case's court proceedings.

Regarding the investigator’s statement to the court claiming that the samples had not been stored, the Police Chief explained that it is not the investigator's task to store the evidence, as only the examination results were required during the court procession. Lawyers can request access to the examination results directly through the court. Once the court accepts the request, a command will be issued to the police to forward the examination results to the lawyer.

So go to the Forensic Institute of Medicine and see if they have time, inclination or legal basis to entertain your demands.

Incidentally, the last paragraph "Lawyers can request access to the examination results directly through the court. Once the court accepts the request, a command will be issued to the police to forward the examination results to the lawyer."

The defense didn't request the court order to get that documentation, yet they are very vocal on not getting it.

WHY would the defence counsel request the prosecution's "smoking gun" to be brought to court? That is the job of the prosecutor to present that evidence. It is quite clear you still have no idea who does what in a court room setting.......

goferman · October 29, 2015

And if the trumped-up charges are not dropped ...

We'll be cancelling our annual 90-day Thai vacation ... forever!

joebrown · October 29, 2015

"show me and I will believe, where is it ?"

Yes, sure, let me get them out of my fridge...

BANGKOK, 10 July 2015 (NNT) The Royal Thai Police chief has clarified that the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case had been stored at the Institute of Forensic Medicine, quelling allegations that the evidence was lost during investigation.

The Royal Thai Police Commissioner-General Pol Gen Somyot Pumpunmuang, addressed a misunderstanding about the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case, giving an assurance that the evidence was not lost.

He cited the Provincial Police Region 8 Commissioner, stating that all collected DNA samples from the date of the incident had been sent to the Institute of Forensic Medicine by investigators, before being examined by the Central Scientific Crime Detection Division.

The examination results of the DNA samples have been used to compile forensic evidence for the case's court proceedings.

Regarding the investigators statement to the court claiming that the samples had not been stored, the Police Chief explained that it is not the investigator's task to store the evidence, as only the examination results were required during the court procession. Lawyers can request access to the examination results directly through the court. Once the court accepts the request, a command will be issu

So go to the Forensic Institute of Medicine and see if they have time, inclination or legal basis to entertain your demands.

Incidentally, the last paragraph "Lawyers can request access to the examination results directly through the court. Once the court accepts the request, a command will be issued to the police to forward the examination results to the lawyer."

The defense didn't request the court order to get that documentation, yet they are very vocal on not getting it.

WHY would the defence counsel request the prosecution's "smoking gun" to be brought to court? That is the job of the prosecutor to present that evidence. It is quite clear you still have no idea who does what in a court room setting.......

I agree 100% on this last point, because it was clear from an early stages following the B2's arrest that the police were continually stating they had semen DNA to prove guilt.

Dubbya Bush and his patsy Blair invaded Iraq on their unsubstantiated belief that Iraq had WMD and was about to use them to de-stabilise the Middle East. Were any WMD shown to the world media after the invasion?.....NO!

The B2 were arrested and charged with rape and murders because the RTP said they had DNA from semen matching the accused.

Was any physical DNA from semen offered to the B2's defence counsel (for independent testing) to back-up the RTP's accusations?.....No!

Connect the dots, and draw the obvious conclusions.

silverado · October 29, 2015

"show me and I will believe, where is it ?"

Yes, sure, let me get them out of my fridge...

BANGKOK, 10 July 2015 (NNT) The Royal Thai Police chief has clarified that the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case had been stored at the Institute of Forensic Medicine, quelling allegations that the evidence was lost during investigation.

The Royal Thai Police Commissioner-General Pol Gen Somyot Pumpunmuang, addressed a misunderstanding about the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case, giving an assurance that the evidence was not lost.

He cited the Provincial Police Region 8 Commissioner, stating that all collected DNA samples from the date of the incident had been sent to the Institute of Forensic Medicine by investigators, before being examined by the Central Scientific Crime Detection Division.

The examination results of the DNA samples have been used to compile forensic evidence for the case's court proceedings.

Regarding the investigators statement to the court claiming that the samples had not been stored, the Police Chief explained that it is not the investigator's task to store the evidence, as only the examination results were required during the court procession. Lawyers can request access to the examination results directly through the court. Once the court accepts the request, a command will be issu

So go to the Forensic Institute of Medicine and see if they have time, inclination or legal basis to entertain your demands.

Incidentally, the last paragraph "Lawyers can request access to the examination results directly through the court. Once the court accepts the request, a command will be issued to the police to forward the examination results to the lawyer."

The defense didn't request the court order to get that documentation, yet they are very vocal on not getting it.

WHY would the defence counsel request the prosecution's "smoking gun" to be brought to court? That is the job of the prosecutor to present that evidence. It is quite clear you still have no idea who does what in a court room setting.......

I agree 100% on this last point, because it was clear from an early stages following the B2's arrest that the police were continually stating they had semen DNA to prove guilt.
Dubbya Bush and his patsy Blair invaded Iraq on their unsubstantiated belief that Iraq had WMD and was about to use them to de-stabilise the Middle East. Were any WMD shown to the world media after the invasion?.....NO!

The B2 were arrested and charged with rape and murders because the RTP said they had DNA from semen matching the accused.

Was any physical DNA from semen offered to the B2's defence counsel (for independent testing) to back-up the RTP's accusations?.....No!

Connect the dots, and draw the obvious conclusions.