Koh Tao Murders: Defense Asks Court to Drop Charges

[cookee68]

I can't see it hapening.....too much loss of face?

Thailand may will lose face big time if it does not happen..

They will loose more face if they let them go, as people will say see we was right the BIB stitched them up, so it is better for the courts to find them guilty and they will issue a life sentence instead of the death penalty, then they have lost no face, and will say the evidence was strong, either way i think the B2 are screwed

[IslandLover]

joebrown, on 27 Oct 2015 - 04:54, said:

Soutpeel, on 27 Oct 2015 - 00:38, said:

MaiChai, on 26 Oct 2015 - 23:20, said:

Verdict 24 Dec? How convenient; Christmas eve for most westerners and a day when the world may overlook the verdict?

Although i believe the B2 have been stitched up in this case, i am not believing the consiracy theory that the date for the verdict has been "conveniently " picked

1. Thailand doesnt officially celebrate xmas, so xmas eve is just another work day

2. In a lot of western countries xmas even isnt a public holiday either

3. Its a Thursday this year so its a business day

In a similar manner in Thailand i regularly schedule "business things" in work for thai or buddhist holidays not realising the significance of the date until i am told

The defense have a very strong case, or the prosecution has a very weak case which ever you look at it and hopefully they will be aquitted, bu the sad thing in following this case on TV are some of the sick/twisted conspiracy theories some member have put forward, so please dont start another one regarding the verdict date

I often 'Like' a lot of your posts on TVF, but honestly, I 'Don't Like' this one, particularly the use of the words "sick/twisted conspiracy theories' relating to the 24th December trial verdict date. Why, because there are many TVF members who have followed this investigation/trial far closer than I have, and we are all of the opinion that if it wasn't for the fact that Andy Hall was 'Tweeting' from the courtroom, along with sparse newsfeeds etc almost no coherent accurate information was available until the B2 gave their testimonies on the final 2 days.

Maybe you forgot the note-taking restrictions imposed by the trial judge(s) at the outset, and the dearth of news about the ongoing trial by the Thai English language newspapers, in stark contrast to the early days of investigation following the murders, and then the arrest of the 2 scapegoats. This case bears the classic elements of 'cover-up' in all areas, and whlst you are entitled to an opinion, I think you are wrong in your supposition that the Thai Establishment hasn't conspired to 'bury' the news of the trial verdict by declaring it on 24th December.

It's also totally insensitive towards the victims' BRITISH families to release the verdict on Christmas Eve. Whatever that verdict, Guilty or not Guilty, the Witheridges and Millers are going to have a miserable Christmas.

[cdnvic]

Calling each other trolls just puts both posts in the trash. Don't waste time on personal attacks.

[IslandLover]

Gweiloman, on 27 Oct 2015 - 05:12, said:Gweiloman, on 27 Oct 2015 - 05:12, said:

lucky11, on 27 Oct 2015 - 04:36, said:lucky11, on 27 Oct 2015 - 04:36, said:

KamalaRider, on 27 Oct 2015 - 04:24, said:KamalaRider, on 27 Oct 2015 - 04:24, said:

This link is to a search made on Washingtons Posts website.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/newssearch/?query=Koh+Tao

There's nothing said about confession to the reporter of WP, but if Lucky11 has a link, show it and I will beg you pardon.

Article purporting their innocence by Terrence McCoy Oct 10th 2014

Now there’s confusion over the condoms. In the migrants’ purported confession, they said they hadn’t used a condom when sexually assaulting Witheridge — despite the fact police said their sperm was found on a condom linked to the scene.

Condom? What condom? Was a condom produced in court as evidence?

No it wasn't. Furthermore, the police could not claim that the condom was linked to the B2 because it was established by their own forensics people that the condom had Ms. Witheridge's DNA on the OUTSIDE (a drop of blood), but there was no identifiable DNA on the INSIDE. Consequently the condom was subsequently discarded as being irrelevant to the case.

[IslandLover]

transam, on 27 Oct 2015 - 08:20, said:

z42, on 27 Oct 2015 - 08:09, said:

webfact, on 27 Oct 2015 - 05:45, said:

Thailand murders: Defence closes trial with 'unreliable' evidence claim

LONDON: -- The trial of two men who deny murdering two British tourists in Thailand has ended with defence claims that prosecution evidence is "unreliable".

Hannah Witheridge, 23, and David Miller, 24, were found dead on the island of Koh Tao last year.

The defence team for the two Burmese migrants Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo said there was no DNA evidence linking them to the crimes.

Judges are expected to deliver their verdicts on 24 December.

The bodies of the British pair were found on a beach on 15 September 2014.

Ms Witheridge, from Hemsby in Norfolk, had been raped while Mr Miller, from Jersey, was hit over the head before drowning in the sea.

Post-mortem examinations showed both had suffered severe head wounds.

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-34638971

-- BBC 2015-10-27

While its great that media giants like the BBC carry the story it is also pretty disturbing that they continue to state that the female victim was raped when the UK coroner report said there were no indications of sexual assault taking place. Their reports are likely to do more harm than good if they continue to just trot out the same story and not even acknowledge evidence to the contrary that has been presented

Hasn't the judge been told by the UK their findings...?

He has probably already discarded them as "inadmissible".

[IslandLover]

boomerangutang, on 27 Oct 2015 - 03:51, said:

Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere, on 27 Oct 2015 - 03:33, said:

Let's see if Koh Tao, Samui, phangan and Phuket are included in Prayut's Mafia Crackdown. Get rid of the opium shakes and other readily available drugs that are used to incapacitate victims. Return the islands to public domain.

How about, as punishment for the many unsolved farang deaths on the island: Ko Tao be cleared of all people, except a grass & bamboo hut for park workers - and be declared a nature refuge. In 30 years it will revert to a semblance of what it was before people came along and trashed it. It could have some walking paths.

Another potential park area is the Hat Raley peninsula. It's located on the Andaman side near Krabi. It's cut off from the mainland by steep hills. It has troops of monkeys, monitor lizards and large trees, but is rapidly losing out to being stripped clear and concrete-covered by humans.

Hear, hear Boomer, I couldn't agree more. They should do the same on Koh Phi Phi as well.

[silverado]

The prosecution, to my knowledge, haven't produced a single DNA evidence against the B2 so you must mean someone elses semen?

The prosecution did produce the DNA evidence, that the defense essentially declined to contest directly, just saying that it should be thrown out because the results could be wrong doesn't count as reasonable doubt over its validity.

The DNA evidence being accepted, plus the other concordant evidence and circumstances is enough for a conviction, notwithstanding the defense saying there's no case to answer, but they would say that, wouldn't they?

The of course are all the obfuscations, for example the cell phone of one of the victims on the hands of the defendants being only a "tangential" issue, saying that the hoe DNA analysis results prove the innocence of the defendants or that allegedly not testing the clothes of the female victim was a serious oversight (as if semen inside the victim wasn't enough evidence to get things going ), etc, etc...

It's all dust being blown on people's eyes, it works because it panders to people's prejudices and emotions, not very likely IMHO to be a factor on the judge's decision.

The prosecution doesn't need to tart their case up; the DNA evidence is enough, that gets accepted they are guilty, simple as that. It was the defense job to prove the results were not valid, which objectively speaking they didn't; they didn't request a court order to get the chain of custody and other data they said they wanted, before they did ask for a court order to get the evidence retested, were granted it and then declined it, apparently they didn't even bother with a thorough cross examination of the people that did the DNA work.

The conclusion is obvious, the defense didn't want to touch the actual evidence and the issue of its validity with a ten foot pole and thought it better to just imply it could be wrong.

you keep claiming the prosecution presented dna evidence in court, I can tell you 100% they did not - fact

They made a claim there was a dna match, they presented no evidence - nothing none zero - two entirely different things. I don't know why you keep making statements like this.

I don't like to gang up on anyone in a blog, but I have to agree with Smedly and KR. AleG, as far as we can tell, from watching the trial, the prosecution/RTP were not able to come forth with any tangible evidence of DNA being/found in Hannah. All they submitted to the court was hearsay based on their frame-up agenda. How can the defense test something that doesn't exist? The judge said in late April that the defense can get key DNA re-tested. Then he said 'no. Not until the trial starts on July 8.' The trial started, and there was still confusion and obfuscation. Top RTP investigators said DNA evidence was lost or 'used up'. Chief cop said 'nothing was lost' (though where's the crucial blond hair?). It's no surprise the defense finally threw up their hands and said, 'no thanks' about re-testing the DNA: IT'S BECAUSE THERE WERE NO SAMPLES FROM HANNAH TO TEST. ...and whatever RTP could scrape up was suspect because of their reputation for skewing/losing data.

Near the end of the trial, the defense had a DNA expert flown in from Australia to testify. All she requested was some evidence of a DNA trail from the prosecution/RTP. Surprise! prosecution couldn't come up with any. NOTHING.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

It's funny how Thai police use cell phone data to track the bomber but not used adequately in this case. Put your phone near a radio or a amplifier with a speaker and you will hear data being sent and received. Gps, GSM, Wifi(RSSI) barometric, inertia, and ultrasonic data which is recorded, stored and obtainable from the cell network companies. Where was everyone on that night and after the murders. B2 we don't know and can only go by what the police alleged. But everyone else with a smartphone their location is known. I go to bars and restaurants and the first thing I want to know is the Wifi password for the establishment I'm in. Ac Bar like most have Wifi at least when I was last there. Once Their location is stored it is recorded by the cell network. Who was where is recorded. "At my university" then the University's Wifi will prove that. When you left the island... Known. The killers had cell phones. From this trial we are all smarter. If you want to kill someone don't take your cell phone with you because it will be a damning witness. But if you throw enough money to the police data clothes can disappear; DNA can be lost and found. Your killers are still living on Koh Tao, smarter and waiting for their next victim. It's been a long trial thank God.

[cdnvic]

Insinuating that a person not on trial is guilty of murder and identifying them is just asking for legal trouble. It will also leave you with a long period of removal from this forum.

[nithisa78]

Evidence against Myanmar men accused of Brit murders 'unreliable': defence

BANGKOK - Two Myanmar men accused of murdering a pair of British backpackers in Thailand last year should be acquitted because of "unreliable" forensic evidence and a flawed police probe, a court heard Monday.

Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Tun are accused of the murder of 24-year-old David Miller and the rape and murder of Hannah Witheridge, 23, on southern Koh Tao island in September 2014.

Both men have pleaded not guilty and face the death penalty if convicted over a case which tarnished Thailand’s reputation as a tourist paradise and has seen the police accused of bungling the investigation.

A verdict is expected on Christmas Eve.

Prosecutors insist their case against the men is watertight and includes DNA found on Witheridge’s body and around the crime scene.

But the defence has raised doubts over the forensic evidence, bringing in an expert witness who said the murder weapon -- a garden hoe -- did not carry the DNA of the accused.

The defence delivered their closing statement on Monday, the culmination of a 21-day trial stretched out over more than three months that has heard harrowing details of the gruesome murders.

The forensic testimony against the accused is "unreliable and... inadmissible," the statement released to the media said, adding "the prosecution’s case is marked by an absence of significant evidence" to prove guilt.

Questioning the integrity of the murder probe, the defence said the two migrant workers were "questioned without lawyers" and made to sign documents that they did not understand.

Confessions made soon after their arrest were later retracted as they were given under duress, it added.

Lead defence lawyer Nakhon Chompuchat said his clients hoped "common sense" would prevail and see them acquitted.

The battered bodies of the British holidaymakers were found on the sleepy diving island of Koh Tao on September 15, 2014.

Police say Miller was struck by a single blow and left to drown in shallow surf while Witheridge had been raped and then beaten to death with a garden hoe.

Family members of both victims have attended parts of the trial, often breaking down during the more harrowing moments.

It is not clear whether they will be present for the verdict on December 24. Christmas is not a public holiday in Thailand.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/Evidence-against-Myanmar-men-accused-of-Brit-murde-30271632.html

-- The Nation 2015-10-26

These two men surely didn't do this crime.

[boomerangutang]

I think most the critics leaning towards a guilty verdict must remember that this trial is probably the longest trial in Thai criminal court history vs a few days when a confession has been obtained. Fierce international scrutiny and a defense team not court appointed and supported by international agencies. Oh Nellie! This is the mother of all trials. Thailand cares about its face but it's funny how money makes a red face return to normal again. Tourism money brings a smile. There's a lot more riding on this decision with all the holes shot thru the prosecution's so called solid case. No one blames the pm for having faith in his people. He and others jumped to conclusions before the actual evidence was presented in court. Forgiven. To make sure it doesn't happen again the pm should can those who botched the investigation. Nothing like double egg on a Pm's face. This verdict will be many pages long so by the time the judge is finished reading it not guilty will be the only sensible verdict.

I mostly agree with your post, but I enlarged the mention of the PM. You advise forgiving him for continuing to maintain that this is 'a perfect investigation.' Plus, he oversaw promotions (Panya and others) and cash rewards for investigating cops. To forgive him for jumping to conclusions is like saying he knows less than a 5-year-old about how things normally happen in Thailand. Does he know nothing about people of influence and the power of money in Thailand? Was he hatched out of an egg a month before the coup d'etat?

We expect British non-investigating experts flown over to Thailand to be easily hoodwinked by a silver-tongued RTP translator. But come on... the PM? Nawww, sorry to bust that bubble. The self-appointed Thai PM knows a heck of a lot about how power/money/connections work in Thailand. He's not Goldilocks.

[boomerangutang]

It's funny how Thai police use cell phone data to track the bomber but not used adequately in this case. Put your phone near a radio or a amplifier with a speaker and you will hear data being sent and received. Gps, GSM, Wifi(RSSI) barometric, inertia, and ultrasonic data which is recorded, stored and obtainable from the cell network companies. Where was everyone on that night and after the murders. B2 we don't know and can only go by what the police alleged. But everyone else with a smartphone their location is known. I go to bars and restaurants and the first thing I want to know is the Wifi password for the establishment I'm in. Ac Bar like most have Wifi at least when I was last there. Once Their location is stored it is recorded by the cell network. Who was where is recorded. "At my university" then the University's Wifi will prove that. When you left the island... Known. The killers had cell phones. From this trial we are all smarter. If you want to kill someone don't take your cell phone with you because it will be a damning witness. But if you throw enough money to the police data clothes can disappear; DNA can be lost and found. Your killers are still living on Koh Tao, smarter and waiting for their next victim. It's been a long trial thank God.

You're right. Phone data (tracking, call history, etc) could have been quite useful for solving the crime. Add that to a long list of things which RTP investigators either didn't look at or looked at and decided it implicated the people they're required to shield (so therefore trashed, like the hair), ......or things they didn't even think to look at. Ask any 9 year old student and they'll probably mention phone data as useful for solving a crime. This is the same RTP who couldn't figure out a way to save photos, and who couldn't find a way to get photocopies made, prior to a court date. Incompetent would be too nice a word for how they've conducted themselves.

Oh, almost forgot, they did find a record of NS's phone used in Bkk area on the day after the crime. They conveniently didn't say what time that phone call was. If it was after 9 am then it's moot, because a person in a hurry could get from the island to Bkk in under 4 hours, with a plane ticket (crime wrapped up by 5 am, as evidenced by 3rd Running Man video at 4:59). Who did he call? What did he say? We'll never know.

[StealthEnergiser]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Andy Hall Retweeted The Myanmar Times

Koh Tao defence team slams police abuses, errors, foul play in closing statement #Myanmar | http://ht.ly/TSQcw

[seahorse]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Andy Hall Retweeted The Myanmar Times

Koh Tao defence team slams police abuses, errors, foul play in closing statement #Myanmar | http://ht.ly/TSQcw

This paragraph sums it up neatly.

The 21-day trial largely pivoted around the veracity of DNA evidence that supposedly pegged the two Myanmar workers to the case. The defence sought to undermine the argument by demonstrating a lack of procedural etiquette and a botched investigation, including forensic samples that were mishandled, CCTV footage that was not examined, a crime scene that was not cordoned off, and key pieces of evidence that were not tested or analysed.

No unbiased judge could find these two Burmese guys guilty.

[boomerangutang]

The 21-day trial largely pivoted around the veracity of DNA evidence that supposedly pegged the two Myanmar workers to the case. The defence sought to undermine the argument by demonstrating a lack of procedural etiquette and a botched investigation, including forensic samples that were mishandled, CCTV footage that was not examined, a crime scene that was not cordoned off, and key pieces of evidence that were not tested or analysed.

....may I add;

>>> ...evidence which RTP investigators didn't think to look for,

>>> ...evidence which was deemed not important, so not looked at,

>>> ...evidence which was skewed in order to nail the scapegoats

>>> ...evidence which was intentionally lost, and...

>>> ...evidence which was trashed because it pointed at likely culprits who authorities are duty-bound to shield from scrutiny.

[lucky11]

I guess their semen found inside Miss Witheridge counts for nothing . At least they should be found guilty of rape and necrophilia .

Thailand risks being dubbed an unsafe holiday destination ; if you go there you have been warned and do it at your own risk .

With all the twists and turns of prosecutors , defense , police and forensics , I still believe that these to Baby Faced lads are guilty of murder .

They very may well be, but the evidence to convict is questionable.

What is more important, prosecuting those who actually committed the crime or allowing the RTP cock ups to jeopardise the proper outcome.

I want those who carried out the heinous crimes to pay for it.

Anyone remember George Davis of 'free George Davis' infamy? or OJ Simpson who initially got off with a murder he obviously committed because a glove was too small to for his hand.

Fortunately both committed further crimes soon after of armed robbery and kidnap, plus I believe, OJ was found guilty in a civil court.

Too many criminals/murderers get off through technicalities and I hope that these two don't join the list!!

Criminals have also in the past saved themselves from extradition because their extradition orders weren't word perfect and were voided due to a minor technicality such as 1 letter in their name missing, do you agree with this?!!

[phuketandsee]

I guess their semen found inside Miss Witheridge counts for nothing . At least they should be found guilty of rape and necrophilia .

Thailand risks being dubbed an unsafe holiday destination ; if you go there you have been warned and do it at your own risk .

With all the twists and turns of prosecutors , defense , police and forensics , I still believe that these to Baby Faced lads are guilty of murder .

They very may well be, but the evidence to convict is questionable.

What is more important, prosecuting those who actually committed the crime or allowing the RTP cock ups to jeopardise the proper outcome.

I want those who carried out the heinous crimes to pay for it.

Anyone remember George Davis of 'free George Davis' infamy? or OJ Simpson who initially got off with a murder he obviously committed because a glove was too small to for his hand.

Fortunately both committed further crimes soon after of armed robbery and kidnap, plus I believe, OJ was found guilty in a civil court.

Too many criminals/murderers get off through technicalities and I hope that these two don't join the list!!

Criminals have also in the past saved themselves from extradition because their extradition orders weren't word perfect and were voided due to a minor technicality such as 1 letter in their name missing, do you agree with this?!!

Amazing, I actually agree with you. It is more important to prosecute those who actually committed the crime. Problem is it clearly wasn't the B2

[B166ER]

....awesome....yes I concur wholeheartedly....it is more important to prosecute those who are guilty in this case than to lambaste the BiB.....now will they go out there and find them? ....

[smedly]

I have said this before and I don't mind repeating it

Normally in any murder investigation police will try to establish where the victims were last seen alive and trace their movements/interactions from there, the primary goal is establishing a motive, since the claimed rape is now under question and no actual dna has been produced to support it then the motive for this double murder has not been established and the crime scene has likely been staged. To establish a motive you are then going back to where they were last seen alive

Could the DSI be trusted to get involved in this case, just announce it and see who attempts to make a hasty exit from the Island

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Most of you members are older than me but this murder investigation, the unexpected and expected twists and turns, the debates and heated conversations which sometimes brought us all to the brink, have aged us all. The diversity of opinions made us research for ammunition to shoot each other's theories to death or give life to them. Each of us invested time and deprived ourselves sleep because this case was important to us as it should be. We are attached to this but suffer less than the families of the victims. Katherine Horton father suffered a a mental collapse and was later accuse of rape, in his home country, but later cleared of the charges. My heart goes out to Hannah and David family. Not only do parents, brothers and sister lose their loved ones but sometimes are shattered and lose themselves. I feel old... Nevertheless... Thank you to each and every member who contributed to the conversation. I have come to respect you all.

[Basil B]

Whilst I completely agree, the fact that it is the RTP who are asserting that the B2 carried out the crimes, is the norm here for gaining a conviction. There doesn't have to be any evidence submitted, just their say-so. I am sure this trial has been a revelation to the Thai authorities who could not have thought that the case could or would be challenged. My concern is that the RTP will HAVE to be believed, to maintain their organisational credibility at all influential levels of Thai society, and therefore a guilty verdict should be expected - with the option of an appeal.

What a sick society we live in here in Thailand when they would rather destroy two young peoples lives rather than admit a <deleted> up. Disgusting!

It was not that long ago...

In 1980, during an appeal by the Birmingham Six (who were later acquitted) Lord Denning judged that the men should be stopped from challenging legal decisions. He listed several reasons for not allowing their appeal:

Just consider the course of events if their action were to proceed to trial ... If the six men failed it would mean that much time and money and worry would have been expended by many people to no good purpose. If they won, it would mean that the police were guilty of perjury; that they were guilty of violence and threats; that the confessions were involuntary and improperly admitted in evidence; and that the convictions were erroneous. ... That was such an appalling vista that every sensible person would say, "It cannot be right that these actions should go any further."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Denning,_Baron_Denning

Just hope Thai judges are not like minded.

P.S.

I am no lover of the IRA... I do not know even if these men were innocent, but clearly there was a clear miscarriage of justice, just do not want to see it happening again just to save face.

[stephenterry]

Whilst I completely agree, the fact that it is the RTP who are asserting that the B2 carried out the crimes, is the norm here for gaining a conviction. There doesn't have to be any evidence submitted, just their say-so. I am sure this trial has been a revelation to the Thai authorities who could not have thought that the case could or would be challenged. My concern is that the RTP will HAVE to be believed, to maintain their organisational credibility at all influential levels of Thai society, and therefore a guilty verdict should be expected - with the option of an appeal.

What a sick society we live in here in Thailand when they would rather destroy two young peoples lives rather than admit a <deleted> up. Disgusting!

It was not that long ago...

In 1980, during an appeal by the Birmingham Six (who were later acquitted) Lord Denning judged that the men should be stopped from challenging legal decisions. He listed several reasons for not allowing their appeal:

Just consider the course of events if their action were to proceed to trial ... If the six men failed it would mean that much time and money and worry would have been expended by many people to no good purpose. If they won, it would mean that the police were guilty of perjury; that they were guilty of violence and threats; that the confessions were involuntary and improperly admitted in evidence; and that the convictions were erroneous. ... That was such an appalling vista that every sensible person would say, "It cannot be right that these actions should go any further."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Denning,_Baron_Denning

Just hope Thai judges are not like minded.

P.S.

I am no lover of the IRA... I do not know even if these men were innocent, but clearly there was a clear miscarriage of justice, just do not want to see it happening again just to save face.

Regretfully, IMO, it's the very mindset the Thai authorities have. Legal decisions cannot be contested - or else. At this moment, the best case scenario for the B2 is for the Appeals court to allow their appeal (when a Thai guilty verdict is announced on 24/12). Again, for it to go down that road, depends on sufficient defence funding.

I don't like being so negative, but I cannot imagine any scenario where the Thai authorities would let it go.

[StealthEnergiser]

Most of you members are older than me but this murder investigation, the unexpected and expected twists and turns, the debates and heated conversations which sometimes brought us all to the brink, have aged us all. The diversity of opinions made us research for ammunition to shoot each other's theories to death or give life to them. Each of us invested time and deprived ourselves sleep because this case was important to us as it should be. We are attached to this but suffer less than the families of the victims. Katherine Horton father suffered a a mental collapse and was later accuse of rape, in his home country, but later cleared of the charges. My heart goes out to Hannah and David family. Not only do parents, brothers and sister lose their loved ones but sometimes are shattered and lose themselves. I feel old... Nevertheless... Thank you to each and every member who contributed to the conversation. I have come to respect you all.

Most of us have done our best.......

<deleted>

If you were to take the time and read the threads you would find many discrepancies have been found that have been inconsistent with police reports some of these have been very useful to the defence.

If the people in Jersey are unable to see this then that is very unfortunate as many of the posters on here want the right people convicted.

When police can't even tell the truth in front of a judge something is clearly wrong and the b2 deserve all the social media support they can get.

[stephenterry]

For those people of Jersey most posters here want the truth. The prosecution has not presented any evidence that has been substantiated and flung it on the court table and said this is our proven case. Quite the contrary.

[CharlieH]

Inflammatory post/possible troll has been removed and a response to it.

[boomerangutang]

deleted

David's from Jersey. Did you know him? Either way, it's ok to be passionate about this case. The posters herein are passionate also. With few exceptions, we want justice<deleted> We want justice not just for David and Hannah and their parents, but also for the B2 and their parents. The B2 who, in myriad ways, are shown to be scapegoats.

There are other victims also: those who may get murdered and/or raped in the future. Ko Tao has a sordid reputation of rapes and murders of young farang. We're doing what we can to shut them down. Perhaps none of these thousands of posts will have a modicum of effect, but at the least, we're expressing our concern.

I think the online posts have had an effect, if for no other reason: the largest and main news outlets in the world are taking notice, which translates to millions of people observing this case. Thai officials had no idea that there would be so much notice. We may not compel Thai officials to look for the real killers, but I think we'll compel RTP to do a more professional job of crime investigation<deleted> in the future. Maybe I'm too much a dreamer, like John Lennon.

[boomerangutang]

Inquests were postphoned until after the trial. The remainder of this thread is like being on one of these: - picture of small merry-go-round -

How about closing it until the verdict is announced?

If you no likey, you don't have to lookey. It's plain that many posters are concerned - to the degree of wanting to keep discussing issues related to the crime.

[steffi]

What's more damning would be no evidence of phone usage in Bangkok for several days prior to the day of the crime.

It's funny how Thai police use cell phone data to track the bomber but not used adequately in this case. Put your phone near a radio or a amplifier with a speaker and you will hear data being sent and received. Gps, GSM, Wifi(RSSI) barometric, inertia, and ultrasonic data which is recorded, stored and obtainable from the cell network companies. Where was everyone on that night and after the murders. B2 we don't know and can only go by what the police alleged. But everyone else with a smartphone their location is known. I go to bars and restaurants and the first thing I want to know is the Wifi password for the establishment I'm in. Ac Bar like most have Wifi at least when I was last there. Once Their location is stored it is recorded by the cell network. Who was where is recorded. "At my university" then the University's Wifi will prove that. When you left the island... Known. The killers had cell phones. From this trial we are all smarter. If you want to kill someone don't take your cell phone with you because it will be a damning witness. But if you throw enough money to the police data clothes can disappear; DNA can be lost and found. Your killers are still living on Koh Tao, smarter and waiting for their next victim. It's been a long trial thank God.

You're right. Phone data (tracking, call history, etc) could have been quite useful for solving the crime. Add that to a long list of things which RTP investigators either didn't look at or looked at and decided it implicated the people they're required to shield (so therefore trashed, like the hair), ......or things they didn't even think to look at. Ask any 9 year old student and they'll probably mention phone data as useful for solving a crime. This is the same RTP who couldn't figure out a way to save photos, and who couldn't find a way to get photocopies made, prior to a court date. Incompetent would be too nice a word for how they've conducted themselves.

Oh, almost forgot, they did find a record of NS's phone used in Bkk area on the day after the crime. They conveniently didn't say what time that phone call was. If it was after 9 am then it's moot, because a person in a hurry could get from the island to Bkk in under 4 hours, with a plane ticket (crime wrapped up by 5 am, as evidenced by 3rd Running Man video at 4:59). Who did he call? What did he say? We'll never know.

[HUH]

Thailand murders: Defence closes trial with 'unreliable' evidence claim

LONDON: -- The trial of two men who deny murdering two British tourists in Thailand has ended with defence claims that prosecution evidence is "unreliable".

Hannah Witheridge, 23, and David Miller, 24, were found dead on the island of Koh Tao last year.

The defence team for the two Burmese migrants Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo said there was no DNA evidence linking them to the crimes.

Judges are expected to deliver their verdicts on 24 December.

The bodies of the British pair were found on a beach on 15 September 2014.

Ms Witheridge, from Hemsby in Norfolk, had been raped while Mr Miller, from Jersey, was hit over the head before drowning in the sea.

Post-mortem examinations showed both had suffered severe head wounds.

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-34638971

-- BBC 2015-10-27

While its great that media giants like the BBC carry the story it is also pretty disturbing that they continue to state that the female victim was raped when the UK coroner report said there were no indications of sexual assault taking place. Their reports are likely to do more harm than good if they continue to just trot out the same story and not even acknowledge evidence to the contrary that has been presented

Hasn't the judge been told by the UK their findings...?

Oh yes the judge and prosecution were given all 400 pages of the official UK autopsy report along with reams of photos to back up the evidence highlighted. Wont bother going into the graphic details again but as everyone knows they are very significant and discredit the Thai autopsy which by the way only contained photos of Hannah from the neck up!

[AleG]

I guess their semen found inside Miss Witheridge counts for nothing . At least they should be found guilty of rape and necrophilia .

Thailand risks being dubbed an unsafe holiday destination ; if you go there you have been warned and do it at your own risk .

With all the twists and turns of prosecutors , defense , police and forensics , I still believe that these to Baby Faced lads are guilty of murder .

They very may well be, but the evidence to convict is questionable.

What is more important, prosecuting those who actually committed the crime or allowing the RTP cock ups to jeopardise the proper outcome.

I want those who carried out the heinous crimes to pay for it.

Anyone remember George Davis of 'free George Davis' infamy? or OJ Simpson who initially got off with a murder he obviously committed because a glove was too small to for his hand.

Fortunately both committed further crimes soon after of armed robbery and kidnap, plus I believe, OJ was found guilty in a civil court.

Too many criminals/murderers get off through technicalities and I hope that these two don't join the list!!

Criminals have also in the past saved themselves from extradition because their extradition orders weren't word perfect and were voided due to a minor technicality such as 1 letter in their name missing, do you agree with this?!!

What never ceases to amaze me is that in many instances people have argued that the outcome of the OJ trial (AKA a miscarriage of justice) would be a good thing to happen on this case.

The defense (or at least the MWRN) made it perfectly clear that their strategy was going to be to discredit the Thai police and judicial system and have the case being judged in the "court of public opinion", basically those guys are bad, therefore our guys must be innocent, which was also the strategy of the OJ defense lawyers.

Of course there's a tiny little difference between the cases... here there's a judge making a ruling, not a jury that can be more easily swayed by appeals to emotion and prejudices.

In any case that strategy reflects more the interests of the MWRN than those of the two defendants; as exemplified, IMO, on the priority they put on the torture allegations rather than on the key DNA evidence on which the case is built on.