Single Friend. Above 50. Wants Retirement Visa

[Firefan]

A friend asked me a question which must be getting more relevant these days where many companies no longer have the typical pension plans but rather leave that up to people themselves in their savings/investment accounts (tax-free or not).

With the new rules (800k for 3 months in account at application/after application) he needs to have about 1 M Baht in account to cover spending in the application period. He certainly prefers not to (is an astute investor+fines for taking out large sums from tax-free accounts).

He is from the Europe and have money in accounts similar to the US type 401k/Roth/IRA (tax free) mainly and never had a job where a traditional "pension" is awarded. Many biz in Europe/USA/Aus have switched to that system too.

Problem is that there is no real way to obtain a pension-letter on this kind of "income". Some years he lose money, some years he gains, and he is having a pretty steady flow from bond/fixed income funds. None if it can however be considered a "pension" in the traditional sense.

Same would apply to a retiree with rental income, or profit share income from passive ownership in a biz.

Anybody have ideas/comments/experience with this situation (besides dumping $27k into a 0.75% savings account).

Cheers!

Edited October 3, 2006 by Firefan

[lopburi3]

He needs to ask his Embassy what they can certify as income/pension for him. If he decides to use the bank deposit option do not believe first application will require the 3 month wait and even later years the full 800k is not likely to be required if the account has a solid history of incoming transfers. That is the take on first report - it may change but I suspect we have the normal "fear factor" overload this week. I don't think those here with the funds required are going to have many problems.

[fruittbatt]

He needs to ask his Embassy what they can certify as income/pension for him. If he decides to use the bank deposit option do not believe first application will require the 3 month wait and even later years the full 800k is not likely to be required if the account has a solid history of incoming transfers. That is the take on first report - it may change but I suspect we have the normal "fear factor" overload this week. I don't think those here with the funds required are going to have many problems.

see Twin's post on another thread: no problems with the 90 day rule at present, and certainly the history of transfers and spending seems to be taken into account by Immigration.

[jbaldwin]

The other option, rather than put it in a savings account is to put it in a fixed deposit, or a series of fixed deposits with different maturity dates. Rates for one year fixed are now 4.25% (or 4.75% for deposits of more than 1 million baht)

[Firefan]

My OP was not really about the 3 mth rule but rather about what is acceptable as "pension". Cheers!

[Firefan]

Jbaldwin; fixed deposit is not acceptable to emmigration I believe. The whole idea is that the money should be avaliable for spending (and emergencies). Cheers!

[LoveDaBlues]

The official requirements never mention the word 'pension'. All they care about is 'monthly income' (their words) of 65K baht.

Since you didn't say I'll assume he has a non-imm 'O' visa. The easiest thing for him to do is to start funding a Thai bank account with 65K each month from a foreign account. They want EITHER the large lump sum or a history of 65K deposits each month.

I've brought in and spent 2.6 million in the last 11 months. I was denied the retirement visa. Lucky for me I applied with a different guy and he approved but was not happy with my low bank account and no history of 65K per month deposits. Starting soon I will xfer the 65K each month so next year I don't run into this problem.

In the past I've transferred in big sums when I needed to make a big purchase such as my car. Otherwise I just use the ATM to get cash as needed. This method is not the way to go; they want the monthly history. (And the deposit code in the bank book better show the money coming in from a foreign bank).

[Khutan]

Why not get your friend to restructure a little and create a Superannuation Fund that is the vehicle to pay him.

This of course would be an entity in another country.

Then the money would be transferred via the Super Company

[Firefan]

Khutan; annuities are not exactly his cup of tea! Bad management, high fees, risk of annuity company not lasting and money gone when you pass on. As I mentioned; he is an astute investor. Cheers!

[Firefan]

Lovedablues; interesting - (even though homepage DOES mention letter from embassy as WELL as the word "pension"), Does that mean you had no embassy letter and no other proof of "pension", but the bank book? Cheers!

[wpcoe]

Khutan; annuities are not exactly his cup of tea! Bad management, high fees, risk of annuity company not lasting and money gone when you pass on. As I mentioned; he is an astute investor.

Obviously, I don't know his financial standing, but he only needs to put enough money in an annuity company to provide for the B65,000 month. The rest of his money he can "astutely invest" as he sees fit.

Problem is that there is no real way to obtain a pension-letter on this kind of "income". Some years he lose money, some years he gains, and he is having a pretty steady flow from bond/fixed income funds. None if it can however be considered a "pension" in the traditional sense.

Perhaps that is what the Thai immigration rules are trying to preclude: a retired foreigner firmly planted in Thailand, and suddenly without income.

How about the "bond/fixed income funds" he has? Are the annual proceeds enough to meet the B800,000/year requirement? A bond/fixed income should be acceptable to the British Embassy to issue the letter.

[Firefan]

Annuities generally only pay 5% (but for life, as a pension) so that would require about $ 420.000 before all the heavy fees/charges/management fees/loads Etc. so let's say $450.000. Too big a chunk of money locked in that.

His bond funds can ALSO have losing years - rare, but it happens - oh, he is not British - but I doubt the embassy would accept such investments no matter what -they fluctuate and therefore impossible to make a (verified) letter.

Cheers!

[vagabond48]

After getting proof of the 65kbaht/month income from your embassy, does the 65k need to be transfered to a Thai bank account monthly or can you simply withdraw what you need using your foreign ATM card?

Edit: I just saw the answer to my question so I guess I need to transfer the funds monthly. I think I would probably spend closer to 30-35k a month so do I transfer 65k every other month or play the game of transfering 65k monthly and then transfering the excess back to my foreign bank account.

Since I am not really retiring in Thailand (yet) but staying there between 5 to 8 month, there is got to be a less complicated way to stay (I hope).

Edited October 3, 2006 by vagabond48

[rak sa_ngop]

After getting proof of the 65kbaht/month income from your embassy, does the 65k need to be transfered to a Thai bank account monthly or can you simply withdraw what you need using your foreign ATM card?

Edit: I just saw the answer to my question so I guess I need to transfer the funds monthly. I think I would probably spend closer to 30-35k a month so do I transfer 65k every other month or play the game of transfering 65k monthly and then transfering the excess back to my foreign bank account.

Since I am not really retiring in Thailand (yet) but staying there between 5 to 8 month, there is got to be a less complicated way to stay (I hope).

Can somebody confirm whether you need to transfer the 65K monthly or not? In other threads the implication is that once you have your embassy letter confirming your 'pension' you can get your retirement visa. However once you want to renew the following year I believe you not need a new letter, but do you need your Thai bank book to show 65k income (or equiv) a month over the previous year??

[bluedragon]

A friend asked me a question which must be getting more relevant these days where many companies no longer have the typical pension plans but rather leave that up to people themselves in their savings/investment accounts (tax-free or not).

With the new rules (800k for 3 months in account at application/after application) he needs to have about 1 M Baht in account to cover spending in the application period. He certainly prefers not to (is an astute investor+fines for taking out large sums from tax-free accounts).

He is from the Europe and have money in accounts similar to the US type 401k/Roth/IRA (tax free) mainly and never had a job where a traditional "pension" is awarded. Many biz in Europe/USA/Aus have switched to that system too.

Problem is that there is no real way to obtain a pension-letter on this kind of "income". Some years he lose money, some years he gains, and he is having a pretty steady flow from bond/fixed income funds. None if it can however be considered a "pension" in the traditional sense.

Same would apply to a retiree with rental income, or profit share income from passive ownership in a biz.

Anybody have ideas/comments/experience with this situation (besides dumping $27k into a 0.75% savings account).

Cheers!

Firefan!, I don't know what country your friend is from and what tax system, but if I was in his/her position, being a U.S. citizen, I would use my tax return to show how much income from investments I was getting yearly. And try to use that information at my embassy to get the letter.

Regards, BD

[chiang mai]

My circumstances are similar to your friend and believe me when I say I am just as avid about maintaining a return on my funds as anyone on the planet! The way I get around the problem you decsribe is by using a Premier account with HSBC Bangkok - you can open one with HSBC Bangkok if you have a Premier account at another HSBC office in another country, if not you must deposit 3 mill baht to begin.

I keep my funds in HSBC Hong Kong and offshore UK and invest in one year fixed rate bonds, transfering the necessary 800k or 1 mill to Bangkok about once a year when the exchange rates are favorable. Transfers are very easy and same day. When the money is recieved in BKK put it on deposit for three, six months or twelve months at a time and HSBC will pay you up to 5%. It's not a great return but it beats the paltry 0.75% you get elsewhere and at least the money is working.

As far as the pension letter is concerned I have never been asked for this. I have a retirement visa and as long as there is 800k in the account at the time of renewal they are happy. Using a non-resdent account it is possible to transfer funds into the country, obtain the visa renewal and then transfer it back out again. That's not great because there is a marginal loss on the exchange rates due to currency conversion and it does call into question what funds will be used to exist on after the visa has been renewed.

A friend asked me a question which must be getting more relevant these days where many companies no longer have the typical pension plans but rather leave that up to people themselves in their savings/investment accounts (tax-free or not).

With the new rules (800k for 3 months in account at application/after application) he needs to have about 1 M Baht in account to cover spending in the application period. He certainly prefers not to (is an astute investor+fines for taking out large sums from tax-free accounts).

He is from the Europe and have money in accounts similar to the US type 401k/Roth/IRA (tax free) mainly and never had a job where a traditional "pension" is awarded. Many biz in Europe/USA/Aus have switched to that system too.

Problem is that there is no real way to obtain a pension-letter on this kind of "income". Some years he lose money, some years he gains, and he is having a pretty steady flow from bond/fixed income funds. None if it can however be considered a "pension" in the traditional sense.

Same would apply to a retiree with rental income, or profit share income from passive ownership in a biz.

Anybody have ideas/comments/experience with this situation (besides dumping $27k into a 0.75% savings account).

Cheers!

[gzu88bv]

He needs to ask his Embassy what they can certify as income/pension for him. If he decides to use the bank deposit option do not believe first application will require the 3 month wait and even later years the full 800k is not likely to be required if the account has a solid history of incoming transfers. That is the take on first report - it may change but I suspect we have the normal "fear factor" overload this week. I don't think those here with the funds required are going to have many problems.

I may add regarding legalization:

Just had a Swiss Bank Statement translated by a Thai Translation Service who has to be acceptable by the Swiss Embassy here in Bangkok. The Embassy’s legalization wording reads as follows and I believe other embassies will do the same:

“Seen at the Swiss Embassy in Bangkok for legalization of thee seal and/or signature of the Translation Service. The Swiss Embassy declines all responsibility regarding validity, authenticity or content of the enclosed document.”

Embassies may however legalize money that comes from a mandatory pension plan, i.e. IRA, but I do not know since I do not qualify yet.

Hope that clarifies.

[LoveDaBlues]

Lovedablues; interesting - (even though homepage DOES mention letter from embassy as WELL as the word "pension"), Does that mean you had no embassy letter and no other proof of "pension", but the bank book? Cheers!

Firefan - what 'homepage' are you referring to? I've never seen the word 'pension' on the Thai Embassy site; perhaps I've overlooked it. Anyway, below is the exact wording from here:

http://www.thaiembdc.org/consular/visa/retirementvisa.html

2.4 A copy of a bank statement showing a deposit at the amount equal to no less than 800,000 Baht, or an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly salary of no less than 65,000 Baht, or a deposit account plus a monthly income of no less than 800,000 Baht a year.

Also, I have a document given to me by Immigration which lists the requirements to apply for the retirement visa. It uses the term 'monthly income' and nowhere does it use the term 'pension'.

I think you're missing my point. Immigration doesn't care about the SOURCE of the income (pension, annuity, business payments, etc.) they just want to know that you HAVE an income of 65K.

To answer the rest of your questions. Yes, I had an Embassy letter showing a monthly income of greater than 65K baht. I DID NOT have to 'prove' this income in any way to the officer at the US Embassy.

As usual, Thailand is a confusing place. I have decided to 'err' on the side of caution and will xfer 65K baht to my Thai bank every month. In fact just 20 minutes ago I initiated my first xfer of $1,900 USD to my Thai bank.

For those that want to 'gamble' and hope the income history issue stays lax at SOME Immigration departments; good luck.

Hope this helps.

[JimGant]

What specific European country is your friend from? Each Embassy has different requirements for certifying income, with the US appearing to be the most lenient (relying on the honor system, not specific paperwork proof). Anyway, a fellow countryman could give specific details.

I don't understand where some have gotten the notion that minimum required income (65k baht per month) has to be deposited in your Thai bank account(?). If you have the required monthly income, officially you don't even need a Thai bank account. But, in actuality, Immigration apparently wants to see proof of a Thai bank account. And CM Immigration has told one poster here that they would like to see at least 200k in your account -- even if you meet monthly income minimums.

But, maybe with all the recent hullabalu, I missed something about monthly deposits....()

[Fred C. Dobbs]

I am 50 years old and will have no pension until July 2011. If someone did not want to be bothered changing their investment elections to show a current income of baht 65,000 per month, wouldn't it be easier to buy mutual funds through a Thai bank that add up to baht 800,000 and have all profits minus taxes sent back to me quarterly? That means I would forever meet their investment requiements and I would only need to worry about getting my visa stamped every 90 days. It seems simple. Am I missing anything?

[thaihome]

I am 50 years old and will have no pension until July 2011. If someone did not want to be bothered changing their investment elections to show a current income of baht 65,000 per month, wouldn't it be easier to buy mutual funds through a Thai bank that add up to baht 800,000 and have all profits minus taxes sent back to me quarterly? That means I would forever meet their investment requiements and I would only need to worry about getting my visa stamped every 90 days. It seems simple. Am I missing anything?

Yes, qutie a bit actually.

What immigration wants to see a letter from your embassy saying you have the income. If you are a US citizen, all you do fill out form, put any amount you like, sign it and have consulate officer notarize it (you do have to affirm to them it is correct). If you are not a US citizen check with your embassy what they require to provide the letter.

As far as your 90 day stamp remark, if you are leaving and entering the country every 90 days on a multi entry Non-Imm O visa, there is no income requirement to get the visa or to enter the country.

TH

[Fred C. Dobbs]

I think you missed my point. What I am asking is can I invest 800,000 baht in mutual funds through a Thai bank and meet their investment requirements without having to worry about showing them a monthly income of baht 65,000 per month? I have money. My net worth including tax deferred accounts not currently accessible to me withought penalties and currently accessible monies will be approaching usd 600,000 by next summer when I expect my job will be eliminated. What I don't want to bother with is changing my investment elections from growth accounts to income producing accounts just to show the Thai government a monthly income. My monthly pension will not be availble to me until 2011. It is my understanding that they want either thai baht 800,000 in the bank OR a monthly income of baht 65,000, not both. Will baht 800,000 invested in mutual funds through a Thai bank work? Savings accounts? Checking accounts only?

Yes I am a U.S. citizen. No I don't want to leave the country every 90 days.

I am 50 years old and will have no pension until July 2011. If someone did not want to be bothered changing their investment elections to show a current income of baht 65,000 per month, wouldn't it be easier to buy mutual funds through a Thai bank that add up to baht 800,000 and have all profits minus taxes sent back to me quarterly? That means I would forever meet their investment requiements and I would only need to worry about getting my visa stamped every 90 days. It seems simple. Am I missing anything?

Yes, qutie a bit actually.

What immigration wants to see a letter from your embassy saying you have the income. If you are a US citizen, all you do fill out form, put any amount you like, sign it and have consulate officer notarize it (you do have to affirm to them it is correct). If you are not a US citizen check with your embassy what they require to provide the letter.

As far as your 90 day stamp remark, if you are leaving and entering the country every 90 days on a multi entry Non-Imm O visa, there is no income requirement to get the visa or to enter the country.

TH

[lopburi3]

The 800k is designed to be for your support during the year of your extension of stay so investment is not the purpose and may, or may not, be allowed. The normal account is a passport savings account.

There is no stamping of passport every 90 days - but if you remain in Thailand you have to report your address every 90 days.

Checking accounts are almost impossible to obtain for people not working or on business and are not of much use in Thailand anyhow.

[wpcoe]

What immigration wants to see a letter from your embassy saying you have the income. If you are a US citizen, all you do fill out form, put any amount you like, sign it and have consulate officer notarize it (you do have to affirm to them it is correct).

Has there been any update on the reports that US citizens were now needed to show documentation BESIDES the too-easy-to-falsely-obtain US Embassy letter? I recall a post (by Sunbelt?) saying that some US applicants were being required to show something like regular deposits in a Thai bank (?) in addition to the letter.