Palestinians say amateur video backs claims of Israeli abuse

[7by7]

Palestinians lived in the area, called Palestine, for generations, first under Ottoman rule then British. A proportion of those Palestinians were Jewish; most were not.

The state of Israel was established in part of Palestine and now the majority of the population of Israel are Jewish second or third generation immigrants.

According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, as of February 2013, of Israel's 8 million people, 75.4% were Jews of any background.^%5B27%5D Among them, 68% were Sabras (Israeli-born), mostly second- or third-generation Israelis, and the rest are olim (Jewish immigrants to Israel)—22% from Europe and the Americas, and 10% from Asia and Africa, including the Arab countries.^%5B28%5D Nearly half of all Israeli Jews are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Europe, while around the same number are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Arab countries, Iran, Turkey and Central Asia. Over two hundred thousand are, or are descended from, Ethiopian and Indian Jews.^%5B29%5D
(My emphasis)

(Source)

Since the state of Israel came into existence, various Israeli governments have occupied land outside their original borders and displaced the Arab Palestinians whose families lived on that land for generations.

Is it any wonder that those people forced from their homes have an antipathy towards the Israeli government and the IDF?

Jingthing constantly states that Israel has a right to exist. He is right; it does. Even the leaders of Hamas now recognise that.

But so does Palestine. It matters not that people like Jingthing deny that right; their opinion expressed on an internet forum will change nothing in the real world.

But it does matter that the Israeli government also deny that right. Until the Israeli government recognises the right of the Palestinian state to exist, and acts on that recognition, there will never be peace.

Israel fought to establish itself, has fought since then to defend itself. Who can blame the Palestinians for doing the same?

Note to Jingthing and others:-

Despite your numerous allegations, being against the policies of the Israeli government does not mean a person is against the existence of the state of Israel. Nor does it mean a person is anti Semitic.

[Johpa]

Nothing new here, just solders acting badly. It happens with Israeli soldiers, with American soldiers, with British soldiers, and just about everywhere else on the planet where armies provide young men with far more power than they are capable of handling. And that includes Arabic soldiers. Of course for every soldier acting badly there is another soldier putting his/her career on the line to prevent such behavior. But that is never recorded for posterity. As horrific as the above videos are, and I do hope that the IDF sends that young man to prison and gives his commanding officer a demotion, best to keep focused upon the big picture and not individual actions.

[DeaconJohn]

Nothing new here, just solders acting badly. It happens with Israeli soldiers, with American soldiers, with British soldiers, and just about everywhere else on the planet where armies provide young men with far more power than they are capable of handling. And that includes Arabic soldiers. Of course for every soldier acting badly there is another soldier putting his/her career on the line to prevent such behavior. But that is never recorded for posterity. As horrific as the above videos are, and I do hope that the IDF sends that young man to prison and gives his commanding officer a demotion, best to keep focused upon the big picture and not individual actions.

A feeble apology for atrocious brutality.

[Johpa]

Nothing new here, just solders acting badly. It happens with Israeli soldiers, with American soldiers, with British soldiers, and just about everywhere else on the planet where armies provide young men with far more power than they are capable of handling. And that includes Arabic soldiers. Of course for every soldier acting badly there is another soldier putting his/her career on the line to prevent such behavior. But that is never recorded for posterity. As horrific as the above videos are, and I do hope that the IDF sends that young man to prison and gives his commanding officer a demotion, best to keep focused upon the big picture and not individual actions.

A feeble apology for atrocious brutality.

An apology?!? I call for the man to be brought to trial and incarcerated. How is that an apology?

[up-country_sinclair]

Nothing new here, just solders acting badly. It happens with Israeli soldiers, with American soldiers, with British soldiers, and just about everywhere else on the planet where armies provide young men with far more power than they are capable of handling. And that includes Arabic soldiers. Of course for every soldier acting badly there is another soldier putting his/her career on the line to prevent such behavior. But that is never recorded for posterity. As horrific as the above videos are, and I do hope that the IDF sends that young man to prison and gives his commanding officer a demotion, best to keep focused upon the big picture and not individual actions.

A feeble apology for atrocious brutality.

In my opinion you've misinterpreted the intent of the post you're replying to: It was an attempt to minimize and trivialize the brutality. In my experience on this board, I've seen this used as a common tactic by the apologists for the occupiers. It usually goes something like this:

"Hey, these things happen."

"This sort of thing can't be helped."

"This is an isolated incident."

"This one, sole individual should be punished, and he/she is not representative of the whole."

These posters are the same sort that attempt to claim a moderate, unbiased position on the Israel problem, when it's quite obvious from their posts that they're anything but.

[Ulysses G.]

Jingthing constantly states that Israel has a right to exist. He is right; it does. Even the leaders of Hamas now recognise that.

No they don't. Not as group and not officially. One or two - out of many - have said they are willing to for political considerations. In fact, they have never renounced their charter, which calls for the genocide of Jews in general - not just Israelis - and the destruction of the country.

Not everyone who is against Israel is anti-Semitic, but a huge percentage are. My guess is that practically every obsessive Israel-hater is a hater of Jews first, even though they substitute the word, "Zionists" for "Jews" and deny the obvious.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Johpa]

These posters are the same sort that attempt to claim a moderate, unbiased position on the Israel problem, when it's quite obvious from their posts that they're anything but.

You seem to imply that having a "moderate, unbiased position" is a bad thing. Shall you have me sent to a re-education camp for not toeing your party line or should my heresy to your most holy beliefs be dealt with extreme prejudice with an Albigensian like crusade? As I have noted many times, both sides are wrong. Pick a side and you become wrong too. Thank you for proving my very minority held point.

[up-country_sinclair]

These posters are the same sort that attempt to claim a moderate, unbiased position on the Israel problem, when it's quite obvious from their posts that they're anything but.

You seem to imply that having a "moderate, unbiased position" is a bad thing.

I'm not giving an opinion on those posters / people who are genuinely moderate or unbiased.

And I'm not implying anything.

What I am stating quite directly is that there are several disingenuous posters who claim to be moderate and unbiased, when their posts make it clear that they're little more than shills for the occupiers.

By the way, it's interesting that you would choose to respond to my post.

>_>

[dexterm]

As a tourist driving a rented car I was shot at by two 8 year young Palestinians with imaginary guns in a village near Betlehem. tatatatataratata.

There is no hope for these people.

You probably had Israeli number plates, identifying you as an illegal Zionist colonist in occupied territory.

[dexterm]

Let's get real here.

Sure, a lot of these news reports are fabricated Palestinian propaganda.

Pallywood is an industry there. That has been well documented. It's intent is to incite and win support for the Israeli demonization agenda of more naive people internationally.

It's clearly rather effective considering the number of people in the world that think Zionism is a dirty word and support the BDS movement.

But of course, there are also legitimately abusive incidents that happen, widely reported or not.

Nobody is claiming that Israel is perfect. Far from it.

But bottom line / bigger picture ... the aim of this Palestinian propaganda is what?

To suggest that Israel doesn't have the right to defend against Palestinian terrorists?

Nice try. No cigar.

Looks to me like cold blooded murder.

The purpose?..to shame Israel before the world. For the thousands of young voters who view this world wide, perhaps they will be better informed than their parents and grandparents as to what their government has been doing with their taxes to support the repressive, brutal Israeli occupation of 4.5 milliion Palestinians.

Every Palestinian should be issued with a smartphone to record their daily humiliations, beatings and murders by the IDF and fanatical illegal Zionist colonists. Then flood the social media with the images. A very powerful force that will bring Israel to its senses one day.

Israel has the right to defend its citizens within the 67 borders, but not when they are part of an invading army of occupation.

I thought the Palestinians in the second video were very brave to resist the heavily armed IDF.

[alanrchase]

These posters are the same sort that attempt to claim a moderate, unbiased position on the Israel problem, when it's quite obvious from their posts that they're anything but.

You seem to imply that having a "moderate, unbiased position" is a bad thing.

I'm not giving an opinion on those posters / people who are genuinely moderate or unbiased.

And I'm not implying anything.

What I am stating quite directly is that there are several disingenuous posters who claim to be moderate and unbiased, when their posts make it clear that they're little more than shills for the occupiers.

By the way, it's interesting that you would choose to respond to my post.

>_>

So you posted an opinion and then deny you posted an opinion?

[samuibeachcomber]

Just give the palestinians a proper homeland,give them some hope of a future that they can determine themselves.

Most of them want that "homeland" to include Tel Aviv, etc. and have been brainwashed from babies to think Jews don't have a right to any state in the middle east.

Therein lies the problem.

many arabs live in peace side by side with israelis,in tel aviv...i grant you jerusalem is a different matter because each claim it as their religious birth place

[Pakboong]

Jingthing constantly states that Israel has a right to exist. He is right; it does. Even the leaders of Hamas now recognise that.

No they don't. Not as group and not officially. One or two - out of many - have said they are willing to for political considerations. In fact, they have never renounced their charter, which calls for the genocide of Jews in general - not just Israelis - and the destruction of the country.

Not everyone who is against Israel is anti-Semitic, but a huge percentage are. My guess is that practically every obsessive Israel-hater is a hater of Jews first, even though they substitute the word, "Zionists" for "Jews" and deny the obvious.

I seriously believe you have that completely backwards. I expect there are many who enter one or more of these threads and end up frustrated with the constant argument that Jews are always right. If you seriously don't understand how the constant diet of such as that effects people, you may never understand the other side of the argument. Perhaps you simply do not understand why Jews have been expelled from over 300 countries in the last couple of hundred years or more importantly, that they accept no responsibility for something that seems to only happen to them.

[Ulysses G.]

The old "Jews deserved the holocaust and everything else - they had it coming" argument. At least you are honest about what you really believe, but it pretty much proves my point.

[losworld]

American needs to cut the billions in aid it sends to Israel until they actually do something to fix the problem. Send the money to a poor impoverished African country and save millions from starvation. Certainly a better option.

[Pakboong]

The old "Jews deserved the holocaust and everything else - they had it coming" argument. At least you are honest about what you really believe, but it pretty much proves my point.

I responded to an unnecessary racist comment with another unecessary racist comment. The beauty of the exercise is you believe you are entitled to your comment but I am not.

There are several who talk of anti-semetism as if it has no antithesis, I assure you, it does.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Pakboong

[Pakboong]

American needs to cut the billions in aid it sends to Israel until they actually do something to fix the problem. Send the money to a poor impoverished African country and save millions from starvation. Certainly a better option.

Edited November 6, 2015 by ubonjoe
reduced image size

[7by7]

Jingthing constantly states that Israel has a right to exist. He is right; it does. Even the leaders of Hamas now recognise that.

No they don't. Not as group and not officially. One or two - out of many - have said they are willing to for political considerations. In fact, they have never renounced their charter, which calls for the genocide of Jews in general - not just Israelis - and the destruction of the country.

Yes, they do; they accept that Israel has a right to exists and have stated many times that they are willing to negotiate with the Israeli government.

As has been shown many, many times in similar topics.

Of course, there are members and supporters of Hamas who do not agree with this change of stance.

Just as their are people on the Israeli side who refuse to acknowledge it and refuse to negotiate at all with the Palestinians in any way, shape or form. The problem being that among this group is the Israeli government!

History has taught us that when a colonial power refuses to talk to those who oppose it, nothing is gained except a larger pile of dead bodies on both sides. It is only when the two sides sit down and talk that a peaceful solution has been found.

Hamas have stated many times that they are willing to talk to the Israeli government; the ball is firmly in Netanyahu's court.

Not everyone who is against Israel is anti-Semitic, but a huge percentage are. My guess is that practically every obsessive Israel-hater is a hater of Jews first, even though they substitute the word, "Zionists" for "Jews" and deny the obvious.

A feeble excuse for refusing to deal with the realities. Very few, if indeed any, of those who are against the Israeli government's policies and the IDF's actions over Palestine is an "obsessive Israel hater!"

Also somewhat hypocritical as it comes from a person who tries to justify his irrational hatred of Islam and Muslims at every opportunity!

Very few of us here, if any, blame Judaism and Jews, or even all Israelis, for the actions of the Israeli government.

You, and others, regularly blame Islam and Muslims for the actions of ISIS; even though the majority of those fighting ISIS, and dying in that fight, are Muslim!

Some even claim that all Muslims are secret supporters of Jihadism and are awaiting the call to rise up and impose strict Sharia rule on us all!

Irrational Islamaphobia is far more prevalent in this forum than anti Semitism.

Not that I agree with or will ever defend either.

[Thorgal]

Jingthing constantly states that Israel has a right to exist. He is right; it does. Even the leaders of Hamas now recognise that.

No they don't. Not as group and not officially. One or two - out of many - have said they are willing to for political considerations. In fact, they have never renounced their charter, which calls for the genocide of Jews in general - not just Israelis - and the destruction of the country.

Not everyone who is against Israel is anti-Semitic, but a huge percentage are. My guess is that practically every obsessive Israel-hater is a hater of Jews first, even though they substitute the word, "Zionists" for "Jews" and deny the obvious.

The Hamas charter myth has been debunked multiple times on TV.

Anti-semitism includes also any discrimination towards Arabs. It's not a Jewish exclusivity.

To note that some people even claim anti-semitism even if they aren't semitic at all...

Anti-Zionism is here again not bounded to Jews only. You can be a fervent Zionist without having Jewish roots.

Once peace will be made between Palestinians and Israeli's you will see a drop down of criticism against Israeli government and/or political ideologies.

[Jingthing]

Jingthing constantly states that Israel has a right to exist. He is right; it does. Even the leaders of Hamas now recognise that.

No they don't. Not as group and not officially. One or two - out of many - have said they are willing to for political considerations. In fact, they have never renounced their charter, which calls for the genocide of Jews in general - not just Israelis - and the destruction of the country.

Not everyone who is against Israel is anti-Semitic, but a huge percentage are. My guess is that practically every obsessive Israel-hater is a hater of Jews first, even though they substitute the word, "Zionists" for "Jews" and deny the obvious.

What Palestinians ACTUALLY think about the question of Israel's right to exist.

A MUST read:

Given such a negative view of Israelis and of Jews, and of the Jewish link to the land, it is hardly surprising that most ordinary Palestinians do not believe Jews have a right to a state there. In 1995, when JMCC asked whether Israel had a right to exist, 65 percent responded negatively. Similarly, in a 2015 pollcommissioned for the Washington Institute for Near East Policy by David Pollock, who has conducted surveys of the Arab world for more than two decades, fieldworkers from the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion asked residents of the West Bank and Gaza: “Do you think that Jews have some rights to the land along with Palestinians?” Only 12 percent agreed that “Both Jews and Palestinians have rights to the land,” while more than 80 percent asserted that “This is Palestinian land and Jews have no rights to it.”

http://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2015/11/what-do-palestinians-want/

[dexterm]

Jingthing constantly states that Israel has a right to exist. He is right; it does. Even the leaders of Hamas now recognise that.

No they don't. Not as group and not officially. One or two - out of many - have said they are willing to for political considerations. In fact, they have never renounced their charter, which calls for the genocide of Jews in general - not just Israelis - and the destruction of the country.

Not everyone who is against Israel is anti-Semitic, but a huge percentage are. My guess is that practically every obsessive Israel-hater is a hater of Jews first, even though they substitute the word, "Zionists" for "Jews" and deny the obvious.

What Palestinians ACTUALLY think about the question of Israel's right to exist.

A MUST read:

Given such a negative view of Israelis and of Jews, and of the Jewish link to the land, it is hardly surprising that most ordinary Palestinians do not believe Jews have a right to a state there. In 1995, when JMCC asked whether Israel had a right to exist, 65 percent responded negatively. Similarly, in a 2015 pollcommissioned for the Washington Institute for Near East Policy by David Pollock, who has conducted surveys of the Arab world for more than two decades, fieldworkers from the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion asked residents of the West Bank and Gaza: “Do you think that Jews have some rights to the land along with Palestinians?” Only 12 percent agreed that “Both Jews and Palestinians have rights to the land,” while more than 80 percent asserted that “This is Palestinian land and Jews have no rights to it.”

http://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2015/11/what-do-palestinians-want/

Of course 65% of Palestinians do not believe Jews have a right to a state in Palestine. I am surprised the figure is as low as that. Ask any other indigenous people in the world who have been displaced: Native Americans, First Nartion Canadians, Australian Aborigines whether their European colonial masters have a right to their land, and they will also say no. That doesn't mean they want to kill all European colonists and cannot co-exist in peace.

Ask the fanatical Zuionist colonists in the West Bank or the sadistic IDF in the OP footage whether they believe Palestinians have a right to a state there. That seems to me to be the important question, because Israel has all the power to continue occupying 4.5 million Palestinians or to cease doing so..

Edited November 5, 2015 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

That seems to me to be the important question, because Israel has all the power to continue occupying 4.5 million Palestinians or to cease doing so..

Israel could turn over the West Bank to the Palestinians and the Arabs would turn it into an armed terrorist camp like they did in Gaza, but that would be stupid and stupid the Israelis ain't.

[dexterm]

That seems to me to be the important question, because Israel has all the power to continue occupying 4.5 million Palestinians or to cease doing so..

Israel could turn over the West Bank to the Palestinians and the Arabs would turn it into an armed terrorist camp like they did in Gaza, but that would be stupid and stupid the Israelis ain't.

Well, Israel better figure out a way of making their enemies their friends, since they are bound to be geograpgical neighbors for eternity.

The scenes in the OP footage certainly aint the way to win any hearts and minds.

[Ulysses G.]

The Palestinians better figure it out. Things keep improving for Israel. The Palestinians are stuck in a joyless purgatory of their own making and things will never improve until they make peace.

[dexterm]

The Palestinians better figure it out. Things keep improving for Israel. The Palestinians are stuck in a joyless purgatory of their own making and things will never improve until they make peace.

Israelis are in the same boat...they still do not have a permanent peace after 67 years of fighting. Yes, certainly a better lifestyle than Palestinians, but could be enormously better if they made peace and started trading with their neighbors too.

And living in a constant state of war, risking the lives of your children in 3 years and more of brutalizing military service, forever looking over your shoulder is no way to live.

Could be a few dark clouds on the horizon for Israel too.

I am confident that Israelis will come to their senses one day, join the family of 21st century civilized democracies and realize their full potential.

Edited November 6, 2015 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

The Palestinians better figure it out. Things keep improving for Israel. The Palestinians are stuck in a joyless purgatory of their own making and things will never improve until they make peace.

Israelis are in the same boat...

No. They aren't. They live in a country that is thriving because of new technology and they mostly have a middle-class lifestyle that us the envy of the countries surrounding them. Terrorism is an irritant, but they have figured out how to make it a relatively minor one. Very few Israelis are killed by the Palestinian's inept terrorist attacks.

Palestinian terrorists are dying in droves, with no success and little material wealth. They are paying the price for their own obstinacy.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[stevenl]

The Palestinians better figure it out. Things keep improving for Israel. The Palestinians are stuck in a joyless purgatory of their own making and things will never improve until they make peace.

Israelis are in the same boat...

No. They aren't. They live in a country that is thriving because of new technology and they mostly have a middle-class lifestyle that us the envy of the countries surrounding them. Terrorism is an irritant, but they have figured out how to make it a relatively minor one. Very few Israelis are killed by the Palestinian's inept terrorist attacks.

Palestinian terrorists are dying in droves, with no success and little material wealth. They are paying the price for their own obstinacy.

Ah, so the 'terrorism' is ineffectual. Why worry about it then and retaliate with great force time and time again?

[Thorgal]

The Palestinians better figure it out. Things keep improving for Israel. The Palestinians are stuck in a joyless purgatory of their own making and things will never improve until they make peace.

Israelis are in the same boat...

No. They aren't. They live in a country that is thriving because of new technology and they mostly have a middle-class lifestyle that us the envy of the countries surrounding them. Terrorism is an irritant, but they have figured out how to make it a relatively minor one. Very few Israelis are killed by the Palestinian's inept terrorist attacks.

Palestinian terrorists are dying in droves, with no success and little material wealth. They are paying the price for their own obstinacy.

Would like to hear the version of an average Israeli who really lives in Israel and/or Palestine.

The fabrication of anyone living in LOS is just another subjective projection...

[Rancid]

The Palestinians were screwed, are screwed and will continue to be screwed.

The Euro Jews are smarter and more importantly have the US and media backing them. Also their propaganda is better.

Short of another major power intervention Palestinian land will continue to shrink, eventually they'll at best eventually be a footnote in history.

As I'm not Palestinian its neither here nor there to me, however I do wonder about the moral compass of those that pretend it's all a righteous thing.

[Johpa]

The Palestinians were screwed, are screwed and will continue to be screwed.

The Euro Jews are smarter and more importantly have the US and media backing them. Also their propaganda is better.

Short of another major power intervention Palestinian land will continue to shrink, eventually they'll at best eventually be a footnote in history.

As I'm not Palestinian its neither here nor there to me, however I do wonder about the moral compass of those that pretend it's all a righteous thing.

That's right. The Palestinians have been screwed by the tides of history just as countless people before. They have been screwed by the Israelis, screwed by their brethren in Jordan and Lebanon, screwed by the Egyptians, and even screwed by the well-intended but clueless westerners who imagine that the Intifada or perhaps just Malthusian demographics will somehow change the current situation to something better. They will inevitably become a footnote to history because, in my opinion, an independent Palestinian state, if it were to arise, is simply not a viable economic entity. It might make a lot of people fill real good for a few years, but it would inevitably be absorbed into a larger Arab entity. And I wonder about the moral compass of those who imagine either side has some monopoly on what is righteous. Both sides equally deserve the self-inflicted suffering that they endure.