Village "Header" authorisation sale of Sor Por Gor lands

[timberpond]

I'm back to my usual holiday in thailand. Last night during dinner, Missy's grandfather mentioned that he just bought a few lands for farming and when he is passed on, these land is a gift for our children. Long story short, I found out that the lands are bought from a sub owner and the original SPK owner has died years ago. Without the original SPK paper too. The land is bought with the present of the village header where a paper "Paper of Promise" was signed with the "previous owner"(not the SPK owner) and GrandFather and the header. The paper look exactly like the second hand car sales with no "bird logo" and official stamp. To my horror, this morning I found out from missy that our house is built on this manner too.

Talked a bit with Grandfather and he just mentioned that it is normal for things are over here and he also mentioned that these lands are not near any reserved park so don't worry about government taking it away. Moreover, these are SPK lands... there are legal papers.

I asked why there is no chanote or Nor Sor Sam here? He say that it is country side and not yet fully populated here but he is confidant that land dept is coming to register the village and upgrade the land in 3 years time because already near 800 families residing here. I followed with asking when the land dept comes, will these land belongs to the original SPK owner or you? He went into silence deep in thoughts.

I appreciated his thoughtfulness buying these lands for our children so I didn't push any question further.

As for the residents falang here, what are your views? Have anyone been through similar situation when the land dept visit?

Is the village header authorised to make these transaction?

When replying to this post... please keep in mind that the lands are SPK title deeds and his name is not inside the deed. He just purchased with a "Paper of Promise" signed by the village header.

[gerry123]

Please explain S.P.K.

[timberpond]

SPK = Sor Por Gor

If I'm not wrong, it is a non transferable title deed given by the reforming committee in the 70s or 80s. It can be inherited.

[farmerjo]

Don't stress to much,just make sure the yearly land rates are set up at the Tambon so there paid in his name

[thoongfoned]

yes agree make sure the land tax is paid in granddads name, and use the land.

have friends that have had the village head man witness this type of land transfer, their plan is to pay tax x amount of years then approach the land office for change of title. to what im not sure. keep on good terms with the seller of the land, their family could contest the transfer, a lot of if and buts that I would not have a clue about......

in the wifes village they have in the last year been round (government survey team) and surveyed all the land, ie everything turned into chanote "red paper" land. (land that does have a dispute does not get new paper work, but still gets measured, but not laser measured, tripod thingie) this has been in the pipe line for over ten years. took about ten ish months start to finish and now all new paper work is the owners hands......... loads of if and buts regarding land owner ship rights here but paying the tax goes along way, and its only small money..........

[timberpond]

Thanks for the replies... you guys really knows the inside out.

After talking to missy yesterday and she also became worried. We end up visiting the amphur and village header for explanation.

The immigration officer: Even my house is build on land sor por gor, go to your header because it is his job. Remember to pay the taxes keep all relevant documents. As long you pay your taxes and when the surveyor comes, nobody can contest the ownership beside the sor por gor owner. And during this time, the header is suppose to standby you as he has witnessed the sale. Your village header is registered representative of the village in land dept and amphur, his words carried more weight than the owner. You never really own any land, the lands belongs to the country. You just merely using the benefits (caretaker) of the lands. Many people is holding on the lands without doing anything, not staying, not farming, nothing... just let the wild grass grow. When it's time the surveyor comes, these might be force to give to the poor or genuine farmers who can make use of the lands. So the moral of the story, pay your taxes and make use of the land and you are the recognised caretaker.

Village header: Stop listening to people... your grandfather land is Tor Bor 5, not Sor Por Gor. In strict term it is SPG 4-98 not SPG 4-01. Our lands is zone C and our tambon is for staying and farming, strongly recommended for fishery farm by government. You will have no problem converting to Nor Sor Nung when the surveyor comes. As a registered village header, I guaranty this and you can check with the tambon anytime.

He also mentioned that our children has to be 20 years old and above to inherit these lands.

So the information seem good and safe... any inputs?

[farmerjo]

Thanks for the replies... you guys really knows the inside out.

After talking to missy yesterday and she also became worried. We end up visiting the amphur and village header for explanation.

The immigration officer: Even my house is build on land sor por gor, go to your header because it is his job. Remember to pay the taxes keep all relevant documents. As long you pay your taxes and when the surveyor comes, nobody can contest the ownership beside the sor por gor owner. And during this time, the header is suppose to standby you as he has witnessed the sale. Your village header is registered representative of the village in land dept and amphur, his words carried more weight than the owner. You never really own any land, the lands belongs to the country. You just merely using the benefits (caretaker) of the lands. Many people is holding on the lands without doing anything, not staying, not farming, nothing... just let the wild grass grow. When it's time the surveyor comes, these might be force to give to the poor or genuine farmers who can make use of the lands. So the moral of the story, pay your taxes and make use of the land and you are the recognised caretaker.

Village header: Stop listening to people... your grandfather land is Tor Bor 5, not Sor Por Gor. In strict term it is SPG 4-98 not SPG 4-01. Our lands is zone C and our tambon is for staying and farming, strongly recommended for fishery farm by government. You will have no problem converting to Nor Sor Nung when the surveyor comes. As a registered village header, I guaranty this and you can check with the tambon anytime.

He also mentioned that our children has to be 20 years old and above to inherit these lands.

So the information seem good and safe... any inputs?

Thanks for sharing.

The only real trouble could be if the original land document was still circulating and been used to loan against it,although pretty sure the headman and elders of the village would have addressed that before the sale to the second owner.

When your grandfather purchased the land there should have been the headman and a group of witnesses along with the neighbors to check boundary lines.

Plant some trees or fence the boundary.

[gamini]

Thanks for the replies... you guys really knows the inside out.

After talking to missy yesterday and she also became worried. We end up visiting the amphur and village header for explanation.

The immigration officer: Even my house is build on land sor por gor, go to your header because it is his job. Remember to pay the taxes keep all relevant documents. As long you pay your taxes and when the surveyor comes, nobody can contest the ownership beside the sor por gor owner. And during this time, the header is suppose to standby you as he has witnessed the sale. Your village header is registered representative of the village in land dept and amphur, his words carried more weight than the owner. You never really own any land, the lands belongs to the country. You just merely using the benefits (caretaker) of the lands. Many people is holding on the lands without doing anything, not staying, not farming, nothing... just let the wild grass grow. When it's time the surveyor comes, these might be force to give to the poor or genuine farmers who can make use of the lands. So the moral of the story, pay your taxes and make use of the land and you are the recognised caretaker.

Village header: Stop listening to people... your grandfather land is Tor Bor 5, not Sor Por Gor. In strict term it is SPG 4-98 not SPG 4-01. Our lands is zone C and our tambon is for staying and farming, strongly recommended for fishery farm by government. You will have no problem converting to Nor Sor Nung when the surveyor comes. As a registered village header, I guaranty this and you can check with the tambon anytime.

He also mentioned that our children has to be 20 years old and above to inherit these lands.

So the information seem good and safe... any inputs?

Thanks for sharing.

The only real trouble could be if the original land document was still circulating and been used to loan against it,although pretty sure the headman and elders of the village would have addressed that before the sale to the second owner.

When your grandfather purchased the land there should have been the headman and a group of witnesses along with the neighbors to check boundary lines.

Plant some trees or fence the boundary.

you can not borrow money with that kind of title deed. so no worry there. you also can not change the deed for another one.

[cyberfarang]

But he is confidant that land dept is coming to register the village and upgrade the land in 3 years.

If you believe that, then you`ll believe anything and as a Farlang you have no say in this whatsoever. In Thailand everything is always going to happen to tomorrow and the situations change from day to day. I would get legal advice if I were you and don`t take anything anyone tells you as gospel. You can take my word for that as gospel.

[farmerjo]

But he is confidant that land dept is coming to register the village and upgrade the land in 3 years.

If you believe that, then you`ll believe anything and as a Farlang you have no say in this whatsoever. In Thailand everything is always going to happen to tomorrow and the situations change from day to day. I would get legal advice if I were you and don`t take anything anyone tells you as gospel. You can take my word for that as gospel.

Did you have a bad experience with this type of land transfer?

[timberpond]

Saw the village header last evening while passing by his home. Halted my bike and asked him politely about lands on loans.

He laughed heartily and explained that only nor sor sam and above titles deeds can get a bank loans.

Some people got small loans from the bank using farmer license not the land where a agent will come and take a look at the crops and usually will visit him to verify.

And the the third parties unlicensed money lender, these are bad people and even they are smart enough to make sure he witnessed the transactions.

He carried on saying that grandfather lands are good, don't worry. I apologised for being too many questions but he protested that anybody with doubts should talk to him especially foreign like me. Also feel free to check with the amphur or tambon office but don't go hear-say hear-say.

Cyberfalang, actually I don't really care if the land dept comes to register the land. My only concern is what will happen if they really comes. In the case, it seem that it should be fine... (keeping my finger cross) Grandfather just reaches 70...

[thoongfoned]

over the coming years (many many i would think) the land department wants/needs to get all the land measured and suveyed, all land.

even on the perimeter of some large towns no land titles are available, let alone out in the middle of nowhere.

[farmerjo]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/868913-interior-ministry-launches-title-deed-issuing-project-to-reduce-social-disparity/

[markkram]

my partner bought land of this sort in najomtien...the area we live in is completely like this...for the last few years the rumour was the government was coming to survey the land to upgrade the title...low and behold they did about a month ago...all plots of land...ownership was verified either by having a blue book and/or confirmation by the village head...now we just wait for the government to confirm, accept and upgrade after verifying that poor people reside on the land...noone in the area seemed concerned about losing their oplot as about 40 years ago the government opened up the area to 'homesteaders'...saying u clear the land, mark it with posts..it is urs....many plots have chanfged hands over the years...at this point the government really doenst seemed concerned about that...just with getting everything registered and back on track

[cyberfarang]

But he is confidant that land dept is coming to register the village and upgrade the land in 3 years.

If you believe that, then you`ll believe anything and as a Farlang you have no say in this whatsoever. In Thailand everything is always going to happen to tomorrow and the situations change from day to day. I would get legal advice if I were you and don`t take anything anyone tells you as gospel. You can take my word for that as gospel.

Did you have a bad experience with this type of land transfer?

No, but had similar deals offered to me. From experience I never believe anything anyone tells me here and when people say, don`t worry, no problem, then I start worrying. The Thais have a saying, a Farlang and his money is easily parted. I expect deals signed, sealed and delivered on paper no BS before I part with my money.

[cornishcarlos]

Not sure why you are worried OP... It's a freebie to your kids.. If it is legit, happy days. If not, nothing lost

[timberpond]

Grandfather farmed all his life and he just harvested 30 rai linchee on august and decided to invest more than half his earning on 4 rai lands. Be it for our children or not, I feel we as children, has a responsibility to ensure his investment not "ko 6" by scams.

[timberpond]

After learning some small lesson on village lands, I convinced missy to let me purchase a small 1 rai land across our home. After reading some thread in farming, I intend to convert it into a small farm, not for profit but more like a hobby. Never intend to have any property in Thailand but 60k baht, I figured might be a good investment of my time.

Thank you so much for the guidance from members in TV.

[goldfinger]

to let me purchase a small 1 rai land.

YOU Buy in Your Name?

And the Pujai Baan confirms with his signature?

can you please explain to me?

[timberpond]

Sorry that I wasn't clear on my previous post.

No I didn't buy on my name but my wife's name. Bought at the same fashion mentioned above with village leader, wife, a land neighbor and land owner signed on a "Paper of Promise" agreement. Shortly after purchase, another village person offer to rent it from me at 4000 baht a year. I declined explaining that I promised the previous owner to let him harvest his cassava in 3 months time.

I intend to farm my own vegetables after reading so many interesting post in TV farming thread. I won't be renting out this land as it doesn't really make sense to me. 4000 baht a year... it will take me 15 years to recoup! Not looking at a ROI... rather turn it into my dream garden. 555

[farmerjo]

I'm not up to date with current prices of this type of land and it can vary from village to village along with the state of the land(ie cleared,semi cleared,rice field etc)

Back in 2005 when i knew thailand was where i was going to stay,i set a plan in motion to accumulate enough land in one parcel to help offset outgoing expenses here.The figure i arrived at was 100 rai.

Our land purchases varied from 11,700/rai to the last piece which completed the puzzle of it being one big piece which was 26,800/rai with 2nd year sugar on it.All done with village head,elders,local police and neighbors(60 people all up)

We took control of the land papers and had the taxes from the papers transferred to my wifes name.6 months ago the land department came and surveyed our house and buildings to include them in the new moo ban which was opened 2 years earlier

The army came.about 4 months ago to see it was legit and used for the right purposes and that box was ticked.

So 11 years later its still fine.

A lot would ask on here whether i could walk away and the answer is yes.It would hurt my heart from what is was to what it is now but i followed the rule of don't spend more than you can afford to lose.

To do it again now at say 60-80,000/rai i would not do it.(not on that scale)

But for someone like the OP,its only 1 rai and could be the difference in making him happier to stay without breaking the bank.

[goldfinger]

Hi FJ

agree with you about the Prices,but you invested about 10 years ago, right?

I think you won´t sell today for what you paid.

Today i think its hard to find some (Quality) land below 35/40000 per rai.(even it is "only" SPK)

Depends a lot where it is.( direct road Access, or far inside with sandy ways to get on it, water?electricity?)

[farmerjo]

Hi FJ

agree with you about the Prices,but you invested about 10 years ago, right?

I think you won´t sell today for what you paid.

Today i think its hard to find some (Quality) land below 35/40000 per rai.(even it is "only" SPK)

Depends a lot where it is.( direct road Access, or far inside with sandy ways to get on it, water?electricity?)

Yes it was over 10 years ago Gf.

We were offered 60,000/rai a couple of years ago by local interests but it wont be for sale in my lifetime.

That will be up to Daughter/Son/Mother..

Its fully cleared,100 rai fenced in one piece,5 dams,creek runs through the middle with running water for 3 months a year 2 bedroom house and 15mx10m shed on it,power,bore,tot ftth and 17kms to a main hwy.My families little paradise away from the rat race.

I would like to stress that you don't get involved with this type of land as an investment,if it happens its a bonus,as the OP stated it is for the use of caretaking and using.

[timberpond]

Farmerjo, my heart skipped a beat when I read that you had 100 rai of land. That's 160,000 sqm! OMG... how do you use land of this size?

I wouldn't attempt what you did because I dare not put in money that I can't afford to walk away. 60k baht is cool with me but 6 millions... no way!

[farmerjo]

Farmerjo, my heart skipped a beat when I read that you had 100 rai of land. That's 160,000 sqm! OMG... how do you use land of this size?

I wouldn't attempt what you did because I dare not put in money that I can't afford to walk away. 60k baht is cool with me but 6 millions... no way!

Machinery accumulated over time,the back up plan was always to have enough equipment to start a contracting business if

That's a last resort as i don't want to upset the locals who do this for their main income,if my son decides he has farming in his blood

it may happen.

[timberpond]

OMG... you are into some serious business here. Do you happen to keep track on your investment all these years? I bet its in the millions...

[farmerjo]

OMG... you are into some serious business here. Do you happen to keep track on your investment all these years? I bet its in the millions...

It didn't happen overnight.

Yes,the important thing to keep in mind is the machinery is flexible.It can make money and its easy to resell if required.

However the land can make money but not so easy to resell and as you pointed out its for caretaking and using.Worst case scenario is losing it,best case my son selling for 10-12 million.

My machinery is worth a lot more than what it cost to transfer the land tax to wifes name.

I'm 44 and have lived here for 11 years,farming in rural thailand makes a nice family life and farming is not hard work with machines.

Back to the topic

When i came here i asked all the similar questions that you asked about titles etc,stayed away from buying family land and bought from families that are held high in regard in the village..

We looked at proper chanote land in other areas,i could not justify the price for using it to farm and being so far from her family so we went down our chosen path with a minimal risk for reward approach which has worked so far.

My advice is simple,take care when looking into these type of title deeds(as a farang).Unless you want to live on it full time and farm it fulltime otherwise the risk will increase.

[RedBullHorn]

It will happen, it just take times... My wife's land was inherited from her grandfather. Was a SPK plot, then upgraded to SK1 (Sor Kor 1) then a few years back (I think 5 years ago) the government announced through the media/news that they were allowing upgrading of all SK1 title land nationwide to Chanote, we applied for the change... and after one and a half year later our catfish farm land plot (and all the surrounding plots) was converted to free-hold title deed...Chanote.

Here are the Before & After pictures, after I came back to Thailand in year 2007 after a 5 years break, it took me 3 years to transform a previous paddy plot into a fish farm expending on a yearly basis (with exemption to a previously existing 2 rai pond prior to my earlier venture into RIR chicken layers farming created in year 2000). A lot of concrete spikes land markers too surrounding the plot hammered into the ground by the land department surveyor team...

Total 10 rai including 1.5 existing forest area rights...

Never had a problem with our village chief too.

[timberpond]

Farmerjo, wouldn't the machinery has high depreciation rates too?

RBH, 10 rai of fish pond... how many cat fish we are talking about here?

You guys are really some heavy-duty falang in Thailand...

[farmerjo]

Farmerjo, wouldn't the machinery has high depreciation rates too?

RBH, 10 rai of fish pond... how many cat fish we are talking about here?

You guys are really some heavy-duty falang in Thailand...

A 1981 ford 6610 was 11,500 usd new,checkout the prices in thailand.