Surprise Public Hospital Bill Before Laos Daytrip. A Question for All Who May Advise.

[Ben Nallay]

Hello ThaiVisa Forum, and please excuse me posting this long saga for the second time today. I posted this text in the Ask A Lawyer forum at first, but time is of the essence, and I seek assistance with an unexpected Health/Legal/Financial matter as soon as possible. I will now add the letter that I wrote originally this morning in the hope that someone here has found solution to a similar problem as I face right now.

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Dear Sir or Madam,

last Friday night, the 6th of November, I was catching up with friends in the local bars for old time's sake, and chanced upon the third bar half a mile away which was apparently under new management after my three years away, and seemed unfamiliar and disquieting enough for me to appraise the only other two guests in the establishment as happy with each others' company. I felt immediately unwelcome as soon as I sat down.

Unfortunately after having ordered the obligatory Chang Lek at the waitress's request. I left quickly without waiting for that beer to arrive, without explanation, and without paying for what I hoped had not been opened as I walked out briskly and got on the scooter. Foolish and rude of me in hindsight, but something in the eyes of the two other men there spooked me, and my inner voice told me to leave that place post haste.

I rode in a direction away from the way home, and was not far up the hill before I was knocked off the bike by a passing motorcyclist, and lightly smacked in the face whilst unconscious. A warning of sorts. As I regained consciousness there were red & blue lights all around in the dark and people lifting me onto something I assume was a stretcher. I was more aware of the situation as we reached the local public hospital, and am very grateful to the good samaritans and rescue team/s that picked me up off the side of the road.

What ensued over the next hour or so was a chain of misunderstandings, in part due to my state of consciousness - in pain, shock, panic, and not the most sociable at the time, nor was my pasa Thai at its most coherent to tonally-tuned Thai ears.

The obvious question of alcohol and anhebriation is not totally clear, although I recall clearly the beers I had for dinner at 17:00: 1 x large Chang bottle. Movie "Love & Other Drugs" in the room at 18:01 2 x sml Chang. Bar #1 at 20:00: 1 x Chang Lek. Bar #2 at 20:45: 1 x Chang Lek. Total alcohol consumption between 17:00 & 22:00 equiv 3 x bottles of Beer Chang in five(5) hours. This would be difficult to assess for blood/alc level, however I was lucid and not drunk, per se', in the classical sense. I have retrieved the motorcycle from the police holding yard with good wishes from the officers and made reparations to the hired scooter to the owner's gleeful satisfaction. I do not believe that I was officially drunk at the time or things would not have been so simple to collect that scooter from the police yard.

At the hospital, not being aware of my condition at the time apart from seriously bleeding from the nose, was informed that I was to be transferred to the hospital in the city. I informed them that I had health insurance and if there was to be any transfer from the local hospital to the city, could they take me to the private hospital which I know from a past operation, and trust. This was not to be. I was taken to the public hospital in the city and left on a bed without water or food until the totally unnecessary cat-scan at 07:00 Saturday morning. I was then denied water for another hour or so until I became obstinanty insistent, and finally an intelligent staff-member attended and instructed the staff that I was now able to be fed water. That was a blessing for healing.

I asked repeatedly of the day-shift nurse whether there was ANY FEE FOR SERVICE at the public hospital and was told nothing. I recalled a short stay in Pak Kret Public Hospital on Tivanon Road Nonthaburi in 2549 (2006) where I offered to pay 2,000 on leaving that night, and was refunded my offer. I was under the impression that there was no monies owed at the time I left the unwanted hospital at 3pm Saturday afternoon to return home and attend my medicinal needs in a more timely and honest manner than what that hospital had to offer. eg. a whole pack of scotties tissues to clear a badly blooded broken nose rather than two at a time begged from the office so I had to keep blowing my nose with the dried out bloody paper. It was not a blessing for healing.

I thought that the whole incident was thankfully over until Monday afternoon, when the hotel receptionist informed me that she had received a phone call from the hospital requesting the sum of almost 13.000 in cash. The woman from the hospital had told my hotel's receptionist not to let me check out of the hotel, and also that I would not be able to leave Thailand until this unwarranted 13.000 hospital bill for no treatment whatsoever (just tests: an EKG ultrasound in one and a cat-scan in the other - both unasked for and unnecessary), was paid in cash.

I thought about this for a long time, and called the woman at the hospital on Tuesday morning to inform her once again that I had insurance, and asked for some invoice/s to itemise what the 13,000 baht bill for 15 hours in a hospital bed was comprised of. On Wednesday (yesterday) I received an invoice from the first hospital by email, (for 2,000 baht, inc. EKG) but still await the large invoice for the 11.000 for unknown services. I have informed the woman from accounts at hospital #1 that there is no way that I can pay cash for 13,000 although I could pay cash for 2,000 if the matter can be finalised. Otherwise I must have those invoices so I can contact my insurance company and make a claim for both together. She lacks awareness of my limited financial situation and has been unhelpful in getting her money. If not insurance, it will take me until the end of March 2559(2016) to pay the whole sum of 13,000, and I am due to visit Vientiane, Laos, in a couple of weeks, before returning to Thailand for HM the King's Birthday for the completion of this year's tour of Thailand.

My Question:

Is it possible that this unasked for and disputed hospital bill could cause me problems at the Thai-Laos border, or at Suvarnabhumi Airport, when I depart Thailand ?

If so, not having the capacity to pay so much cash in one fell swoop, what is my worst outcome and best option to achieve a successful resolution?

Yours Faithfully,

Ben Nallay.

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Thank you for reading 1,137 words of explanation, and I hope you might still feel some sort of reason to reply in good faith.

[oncearugge]

Best you come to an arrangement with the hospital. Attempting to "dispute" the cost will achieve nothing.

13,000 is not a lot of money and if you have health insurance there should be no difficulty in settling the hospital invoice.

Treatment in a private hospital would have cost considerably more.

It is unlikely that the hospital has, as yet, made a compliant which would result in your detention at the border.

NB

Just as a matter of interest what was the cost of the "EKG ultrasound in one and a cat-scan" and do you have a receipt for the cash paid?

[MaeJoMTB]

I would tell the receptionist to mind her own business and not disclose or discuss your business with random callers.

As for not letting you move out ....... make sure you have your passport ......... more not their business.

Hospital bills, they ask for payment in advance, or insurance authorization in advance.

Been in all sorts of Thai hospitals, they will trust you for 500bht (pay as you leave), but 5000bht they want before they treat.

Sounds like a scam.

Not your problem.

Edited November 12, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[Ben Nallay]

Thank you for your prompt reply Oncearugge. I have since received a .JPG image of the problematic hospital bill, and although I went into the machine only once, I have been charged 3,100 for the CT SCAN (BRIN) *sic* and 4,000 for the CT FACIAL BONE to the total sum of 7,100 for that 2-in-1 scan.

I do believe that perhaps someone was dissatisfied with my manners that morning, and wants to teach me more of a lesson than I learnt already, although I find it hard to apologise sincerely as I was badly in need of some water and pack of tissues to ease the pain in my head through the middle-ear caused by congestion in the nasal cavities from the arftully symmetrically broken and bloodied nose. There was nothing wrong with my cranium apart from mild contra-coup concussion and my jaw is almost ready to sing tenor again, and my teeth are carefully guiding the mildly fractured FACIAL BONE roughly back into service as before my stupid error at that farang unfriendly bar.

The words in pasa Thai which would have saved a CT scan with a touch of the forehead are "JEP MAI" (Does it hurt?). I never hit my head on the concrete. That is not how to roll safely.

Thank you again for being such a fast reader and quick respondant. I will keep trying to find resolution before the Big Mekong Crossing, but if they keep insisting on cash I do not have, I'll take my chances and hope not to wind up in Immigration Detention over this. That is the next-to-worst outcome as far as I gather.

[Sheryl]

First of all, that is a very low price for a cat scan.

Secondly, there is always a fee for services in a Thai government hospital unless you are a Thai citizen.Why would you think otherwise?

I suggest you directly contact your insurance company and ask them to contact the hospital to guarantee payment.

[lopburi3]

If you receive special image type scans, even as a Thai, you are likely to have to make payment. As said this appears very inexpensive and with detail invoice and bills expect will be refunded by your insurance. And I suspect medially it was indicated after bleeding from the head after a motorcycle accident and admittedly confused state.

[Ben Nallay]

PS: I overlooked the EKG ultrasound cost courtesy of the local hospital, which was 850 baht out of 2,060. I'd be happy with that because good people lifted me off a dark and dangerous street for a whitefella to be laying unconscious on in the middle of the night..

Overall, the are billing me for transportation to and from and tests that they did to serve themselves. I never saw the ultrasound nor the X-Rays of my BRIN or FACIAL BONE. That is why I have a nervous system, so I can tell by feel. All they had to do was ask me a question, like human beings generally do to each other. Hopefully oneday there will be no need to elaborate on the various breaches of UDHR Article #5 (torture) and we will all look back and smile in remembrance of this hopefully soon-to-be comedic calamity.

<removed>

Edited November 12, 2015 by ubonjoe
removed an improper comment

[Sheryl]

P.S.actually from what u fescribe both scans were medically necessary. Whether or not your forehead hurt has no relevance.

[Ben Nallay]

Secondly, there is always a fee for services in a Thai government hospital unless you are a Thai citizen.Why would you think otherwise?

Thank you for your reply Sheryl. Just to clarify that question, it is because in 2549(2006) I was hit by a pickup running a red light on the corner of Tivanon and Chaengwattana in Pak Kret, and delivered to the hospital up the road, where I awoke, and offered to pay them 2,000 baht for my delivery and care, and they gave me back the money and wished me good luck.

I also asked the day-shift nurse a few times on the Saturday morning if there was any cost for service, and he said nothing, so I honestly thought that when I had to leave that afternoon to save myself, that there was no monies outstanting, as I knew from the previous occasion in a Thai public hospital.

I have never overstayed, and have not one bad debt in this nation, and I will pay that thirteen days worth of survival anyway I can because I have clean record in Thailand for over a decade, and that is worth more than a million baht. That is why I will pay this bill somehow or other, as soon as I can.

I wish I had paid more attention to reading Thai script like I tried ten years ago and with all the jet-setting in and out of the Kingdom. decided it was not a good learning environment for formal studies. Gor-a-gah, kor-a-kah ... snake, snake, fis, fis.

[Ben Nallay]

If you receive special image type scans, even as a Thai, you are likely to have to make payment. As said this appears very inexpensive and with detail invoice and bills expect will be refunded by your insurance. And I suspect mediCally it was indicated after bleeding from the head after a motorcycle accident and admittedly confused state.

Indeed, Lopburi, but I don't have that much cash to my name until next Friday and everyday in Thailand costs 1,000 for a vegetarian living in a budget room (w/wi-fi) with drinks and medicine and busfares. I am not able to just freeze for 13 days - cryogenics would probably cost more than a CT scan!

I was not confused when I requested NOT to be taken to the public hospital in the city and I never needed any medical reason for those scans because I am quite familiar with head injuries and the resultant pains and loss of coordination, and was certain that the only bleeding was from the broken nose, courtesy of my would-be karaoke chorus, and that the mild concussion was not the most urgent matter to be dealt with. I have had headaches from concussion for three or four days before, and this little concussion was not even making me dizzy.

It was all one integral misunderstanding, and needn't have happened, as I said that night. Nevertheless, the secret to good business is good friends, not tricky transactions. I will forsake this little battle to keep onside with Thailand and together we win the war. That is the main issue. Maintain the relationship. The money will take care of itself in time.

[kkerry]

Treatment in a private hospital would have cost considerably more.

Yes... 8.500 baht for my partial CT body scan in a private hospital recently... but at least they are always super helpful and polite to me while I'm there...

[Alration]

Ben Nallay, phen arai?

It's very odd that someone who cannot come up with 13,000 baht for a public hospital bill would have asked to be transferred to a private hospital, not another public hospital. Would you have been able to pay what would have been the more expensive private hospital's bill for the same treatment?

Instead of "jet-setting" off on another trip why not do the right thing and cancel it, stay here and pay your bill?

If your attitude at either of the hospitals was anything like your pompous, verbose description of the events perhaps there was an item on the bill that covered the attempted treatment of that condition that may have been the result of the bang on the head that was serious enough to cause your unconsciousness and serious bleeding.

I wonder if the hostile reception that you received at the 3rd bar was a consequence of your poncing around pontificating, possibly due to the effect of all the "obligatory Chang Lek [sic] at the waitress's request" that you had consumed?

Is Chang "Lek" a new variation brewed just for you along the lines of Chang Export for instance or, in an attempt to show off your supreme command of the "pasa Thai", did you just mean "small bottle of"?

Or maybe you're just a troll.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Alration

[kkerry]

Or maybe you're just a troll.

sure could use a good editing...

[swissie]

13'000 Bht for the treatments that the OP received, can not be called "excessive". Like another poster mentioned: It's a health insurance matter.

Hope, that the payment OP expects to receive by Friday is substantial. Otherwise.........

The Bar Story that triggered this chain of events, is not plausible. (Not complete).

Cheers.

[Ben Nallay]

(1)_Ben Nallay, phen arai?

.

(2)_Or maybe you're just a troll.

(1)Yes.

This is an online pseudonym, as recommended by most people, from years ago. You should change your real name too if I can give you a tip in case you have friends reading.

(2) No, Look in the mirrot, Alr*****.

I asked for advice, not insults, thank you for your effort all the same, but I can get that on the AsiaFinest forum in gallons. I just came here to tell an honest story for future reference by others and to seek advice from persons who have walked in my shoes and lived.

What happens when you goto the border and owe money however legitimate to the Ministry of Public Health? What is my next-to-worst outcome and what is the solution, sir?

[Ben Nallay]

Hope, that the payment OP expects to receive by Friday is substantial. Otherwise.........

Cheers.

It converts to around 18,000 and that is it until I pass through customs in Australia. That is it, for sixteen (16) days, plus the trip to the border, and busfare to Nong Khai. There will be no more than 2,000 odd baht 'disposable income' until I make it back to Australia, but I have a good heart, and I love Thailand ever since Kao Phan Saa 2548 in Minburi.

I think this might be a good time to get myself to a temple and beg for anonimity. It was not ever the plan but I am a celibate vegetarian and the temple is better than infefinite detention with weevils in my rice and unwanted visitors in the communal cell at night.

This was not what I planned, but I have had harder times before. Thanks to all for your advice..

[hgma]

This might sound odd but it really happened to me.

One day...private hospital, bad breath, took a large amount of Lysterine and goggled long time, NO alcohol since i don't consume alcohol,

Doctor came, eye snatching pain, she couldn't make out what caused the pain, her English scrappy, i got annoyed by her approach.

She admitted me for observation.......luckely bloodtest were taken!!!!!!

next day discharged, and surprise of my life.....doctor had written i was intoxicated smelling 'like alcohol' NO mentioning of blood tests

BUPA refused to pay, I HAD to pay myself but took it to the management and challenged their proof (blood tests)

NOTHING DETECTED

Doctor fired, excuses from

Private Hospital AND BUPA who paid me within 24 hours

moral of the story.....

1, Lysterine smells like alcohol (and get you into trouble)

2. ALWAYS insist on a bloodtest when small legal amount of alcohol consumed.

FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS

HGMA

Edited November 13, 2015 by hgma

[Ben Nallay]

1, Listerine smells like alcohol (and get you into trouble)

2. ALWAYS insist on a bloodtest when small legal amount of alcohol consumed.

FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS

HGMA

I'm going through bottles of the stuff this week because it's a great mouthwash (the Green Tea flavour is my fave') and it's also a good solution for dipping the cotton buds into (once per end - no double-dipping) for cleansing the token knife-wound on the cheek because it IS alcohol. Water from the tap here is not a great substance to get into the cuts, but listerine seems to do the job well enough without access to isopropanol that I can't think how to ask for at the pharmacy.

If it's safe to sell at the 711 for people put in their mouths, which are sometimes known to have ulcers etc., then it's hopefully innocuous enough to cleanse a wound with too ... and it can make one a little tipsy if one drinks enough of it. It's sweet-flavoured alcohol as far as I know, although the label in Thai on the back of the little bottle is too small a print for me to read this early of a Saturday morning. Not recommended for parties though. Just emergencies like NYE if yer broke.

Thank you for your reply. I'll be hopefully heading back into the city this weekend to meet with the folks at the big hospital with the big bill, and see if they would like a copy of my insurance papers. I still haven't been locked up in the Immigration Detention Poor House yet, so maybe I ought to buy myself a blue short-sleeved buttoned collared shirt and some black leather shoes and work off the cost of these extortionate tests. That's probably trying a little TOO hard, eh?

[StevieDee]

OP, 13,000 Baht = 240GBP/360USD, surely such an amount for someone with funds to finance private health insurance, a motor bike, a night at the movies, drinks with friends, impending trip to Laos to complete "this year's tour of Thailand" should be considered a fair price to pay for the required, and necessary, care following a road-side accident resulting in concussion. Maybe the head trauma has blurred your reasoning along with the fact that you were guilty of drink-driving.

[NanLaew]

People who are "lucid and not drunk, per se, in the classical sense" don't order beer, suddenly get paranoid and do a runner before it's brought out.

But they do make some mind-numbingly, long-winded posts in a weak effort to justify their wrong-headed and rude behavior. Keep it up. You may just convince yourself that the whole thing is someone elses fault including walking on the hospital bill.

[Ben Nallay]

"a night at the movies"

Thank you for your kindness and concern. You are of course entirely correct except that I have a little 1TB external USB HDD by Seagate which I paid $89 AUD for a year ago and it has around 400 movies I collected not off BitTorrent but were given to me by two different friends in Noonamah which is around 80 kays south of Darwin in April 2012 and South Fremantle in July 2014, (I have quite a collection of 500Gb USB drives from over the years - beats cloud storage).

Papa Daa, The Big Man at the moobahn where my friend lives who had her 48th birthday last Monday and I had to ask permission on Friday morning to deliver a frangipani tree in a pot as a surprise present to her front verandah on the Monday morning whilst she was at work, has a wonderful daughter named Daa, who was very kind to me in 2553(2010) by translating Thai and English for the obligatory letter to the consulate when they used to have one in Perth, for my one-and-only Non-Imm B visa, and poor Daa has early-onset Parkinson's disease in her late 20s, so that was why I chose that "Love and Other Drugs" movie to watch on my celeron-powered Fujitsu that Friday night. Out of respect for Papa Daa and to wish good luck to Daa who is currently in Chiang Mai for reasons unbeknowns to me, and is apparently coping reasonably well with the shakes according to her father.

Thirteen thousand baht is fairly close to thirteen days total expenses in Thailand for a pauper such as I, if we except the usual extrordinary costs such as border runs and unexpected scooter repairs for a friend who never did a thing wrong to desrve the broken front indicator lense. Of course you are entirely correct about what a tiny amount that 13,000 is to a typical expat with work, so I'll just head down to the local expat bar in the city next week and pass my hat around for half an hour. I'm sure there are dozens of fellows willing to part a measly few thousand baht to help me out in a time of need, being such benevolent and courageous folks, us foreigners. How about you first, old mate?

[blackcab]

Their charges are fair.

Pay the bill.

[simon43]

Judging by the rubbish that you're spouting, I'd get straight back to the hospital and ask for more brain scans

[Ben Nallay]

Judging by the rubbish that you're spouting, I'd get straight back to the hospital and ask for more brain scans

Well, that concludes this episode of The Adventures of Ben Nallay in the Orient. Stay tuned on Twitter for the miniseries of the miseries, and don't forget to get insurance, just in case.

Thanks to all for your relentless help and advice.

[uptheos]

If you had a scan ask for the pictures or DVD, they are legally yours if you paid for them and they cannot refuse to give them to you + the results report.

[dutchisaan]

The price you have to pay for ordering a beer and not paying.