Visit visa question

[rasg]

I spent an hour in a phone queue trying to get through to the UKBA today and I've given up.

I am looking for a little bit of reassurance please.

The girlfriend is currently in Thailand with a visit visa that runs out on the 12th December 2015. She was granted a new two year visit visa a few weeks ago that starts on the 1st December 2015.

After booking flights on a flexi ticket with BA for the 1st December she says that she wants to come over in the next week and I am a little bothered that her current visa may have been cancelled when they issued the new one. Nothing on her visa or in her passport indicates this but I would hate for her to turn up at Heathrow and find that she cant enter the UK!

Is it normal that the first visit visa is still available to use or is it normal that an existing Visitor Visa is cancelled when a new one is issued. How would I know if the first has been cancelled? She has spent a total of 14 weeks in the UK this year.

Or am I worrying over nothing?

TIA.

[rasg]

Hmmm.

148 views and no replies.

Can nobody answer my question? Please?

[theoldgit]

Most people on here are not, or no longer, professionals, so are understandably reluctant to answer unless they absolutely know the definitive answer, the Immigration Act is very complex, the last Statement of Changes, published earlier this year was 215 pages long.

My gut feeling is that only the most recent visa is valid, but I don't know for sure.

You might want to call BA and see if they would carry her in the first place

I will try to get you a definitive answer.

[theoldgit]

I've just spoken to a Border Force Officer, who currently sits at a desk at Heathrow, and this was his response:

"I would have no trouble letting this lady land as I can think outside the Box and as long as she's has a visa to cover the period of stay and return flight details, with plenty of money it shouldn't be a problem...... But some officers make up their own rules etc.... And get away with it"

This may explain why the guys on here were reluctant to offer a response.

I would be inclined to call BA and check if they would allow her to board their flight.

[Tony M]

It's an interesting question. Guidance to ECO's says this :

Applicants who already hold one form of entry clearance may submit applications for further entry clearance. It should be noted that applicants are not allowed to have two forms of leave at the same time.

Should the applicant fall to be issued, and the applicant is happy for their extant leave to be cancelled then the new entry clearance can be put in the same passport as the previous leave. If the applicant does not wish to have their previous entry clearance cancelled then, as long as the new visa is for a short time i.e. six months or less, then the entry clearance officer may issue both forms of leave.

If the application is granted then the extant leave should be struck out by writing “Recommend cancel without prejudice” diagonally across the redundant visa (in red ink), make a note in Proviso and then grant fresh leave. Should the application fall for refusal, the refusal notice should be processed as usual and the applicant should be advised not to travel without new leave (unless they can show to the Immigration Officer that their circumstances have not changed).

In certain circumstances, for example, if the second application for entry clearance is refused under general grounds, then the extant leave should be revoked. For more information regarding how to revoking entry clearance please see ECB18.

ECB18 deals with "revocation" of visas. It says this ( but you need to read the whole guidance ) :

An ECO should have clear evidential grounds in order to cancel or revoke an entry clearance.

For visit visas, the grounds are V 9.2, 9.4, 9.6 and 9.7 of Appendix V. The further grounds of cancellation in Part V9 should not be applied by ECOs and are to be applied by Immigration Officers or in-country staff whether the person is abroad or on arrival in the UK. These are:

• V 9.3 – change of purpose
• V 9.5 – medical reasons
• V 9.8-12 – are grounds for curtailment which can only be exercised in the UK.

For other types of entry clearance the grounds are under paragraph 30A.

The link to ECB18 is :

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/revocation-of-an-entry-clearance-ecb18/revocation-of-an-entry-clearance-ecb18

Edited November 15, 2015 by Tony M

[rasg]

I have just seen your latest reply. Hiting the send on this any way so I can read your reply!

I understand. Thank you so much for checking for me. It is really appreciated.

What is the question that I need to ask BA or am I being dense?

Both visas in her passport are clean. No lines through or defacing marks. I have no idea if that means anything or whether they are both in the computer system or if, by issuing the new visa that starts on the 1st December, it "killed" the current visa.

[rasg]

There have not been any change in circumstances and I am her sponsor and financially support her.

I originally booked a flexi ticket with BA so that she would arrive at Heathrow on the 1st December with a return date on the 27th May next year. If she arrives this coming Tuesday she will be coming on her old visa that runs out on the 12th December. Presumably she would have to leave on the 12th December as she didn't enter the UK on the new two year visa that starts on the 1st December?

I didn't realise that this could be so complicated!

[rasg]

Any visit visa can be cancelled by an ECO if the visitor is outside the UK. This includes long term visit visas (eg a 2, 5 or 10 year multiple entry visit visa). ECOs should use the process set out below in ECB18.4 to exercise this power.

I know nothing about this but a few things jump out at me that I would love an answer to if possible please?

The above paragraph. Does that mean that she is still in Thailand or is sitting at Heathrow waiting to be allowed in?

ECOs cannot revoke entry clearance that has taken effect as leave to enter (i.e. once the person has arrived in UK), or revoke, cancel or curtail that leave.

Does that mean that she will be allowed to enter the UK if she is allowed to leave Thailand? And the reason you suggest that I call BA?

Cheers, Richard

[Tony M]

I did say that it was an interesting question !

The obvious solution is to tell your girlfriend that she can't travel until the new visa becomes valid, and that is only about 2 weeks away. More important is how long your girlfriend has been in the UK in the past few months. You have said that she has been in the UK for 14 weeks already this year, and that she will be in the UK for around 6 months ( from 1st December). You should be careful that she hasn't been spending too long in the UK recently. There is no limit on how long a a person can stay in the UK as a visitor, but the norm is that a person should not spend more time in the UK than in their own country in any 12 month period. Presumably the ECO looked at this when he issued the visa, and if you stated that your girlfriend was going to stay 6 months, then the ECO should be aware of the period(s) that she is spending in the UK. If your girlfriend requested a short(er) visit, then you must be prepared for her to be questioned on that when she arrives in the UK. If the immigration officer suspects that the visit visa is being used for her to "live" in the UK by using visit visas to do so, then he can look at refusing her entry.

[rasg]

I think you are right.

She has spent 14 weeks here over the summer and I have spent 9 weeks in thailand. Interesting that she didn’t receive an exit stamp when she left. Is that normal?

She wants to get away right now but a two week wait is fine. Like me she will not be doing anything to jeopardise a future visa.

It does make me wonder why they issued her with a two year visitor if you can’t actually use it. I was a little cheeky applying for two years in the first place because a one year was the same cost. At least it saves schlepping to and from Bangkok.

Many thanks for your help. It's really appreciated.

[Tony M]

I think you are right.

She has spent 14 weeks here over the summer and I have spent 9 weeks in thailand. Interesting that she didn’t receive an exit stamp when she left. Is that normal?

She wants to get away right now but a two week wait is fine. Like me she will not be doing anything to jeopardise a future visa.

It does make me wonder why they issued her with a two year visitor if you can’t actually use it. I was a little cheeky applying for two years in the first place because a one year was the same cost. At least it saves schlepping to and from Bangkok.

Many thanks for your help. It's really appreciated.

Then be careful how much time she spends in the UK on this visit. For instance, if has has stayed in the UK for 3 months or so since June this year, and she intends to stay for 6 months until May next year, then she will have spent 9 months in the UK in the 12 - month period from June 2015 to may 2016. She could well have a problem when she gets to UK.

I should qualify my earlier reply to you, where I said "There is no limit on how long a a person can stay in the UK as a visitor, but the norm is that a person should not spend more time in the UK than in their own country in any 12 month period.". I meant that a person can stay as long as they like, as long as each visit is not more than 6 months, and in theory there is nothing to stop them from returning to the UK at any time after they have left. But, they cannot just spend as much time in the UK as they want on a two-year visa, and they are still bound by the fact that the ECO, or IO on arrival in the UK, will be looking at the total time that they have spent in the UK in the previous 12 moths, and in total on recent visits. The guidance to ECO's states :

Assessing residence through successive visits

You must consider the following factors to assess whether the visitor is residing in the UK because of frequent, successive visits:

 The purpose of the visit and intended length of stay stated on the visitor’s visa application form or to the Border Force officer.

 The number of visits made over the past year (rolling 12 month period), including:

o the length of stay on each occasion

o the time elapsed since the last visit, and

o whether this amounts to the individual spending more time in the UK than in their home country.

 The purpose of return trips to the visitor’s home country and whether this is used only to be readmitted to the UK.

 The links they have with their home country such as:

o main residence

o employment

o family or other long term commitments

o where they are registered for tax purposes.

 Evidence the UK is their main place of residence such as:

o Have they registered with a general practitioner (GP)?

o Are their children in UK schools?

 Previous applications made:

o Are they using the visitor route to avoid the rules in place for family migrants joining British or settled persons in the UK?

o For example, if the visitor has previously been refused under the family rules and subsequently wants to enter as a visitor.

[bobrussell]

The main question for BA is whether they will let the visa holder fly! For the sake of their bank balances, airlines are reluctant to allow someone to fly if there are even the slightest issues over visas. They face costs returning the refused arriver plus some pretty hefty fines.

Once allowed on the flight I would hope the Immigration officer would use common sense. Not sure that I would be happy to count on that! Interested that TOG has a contact that believes some IO's interpret rules 'differently', not a surprise to me!!

If the applicant stays 9 months of a year it would be no surprise for a future visa to be refused and a very high risk this one would be cancelled on the grounds that these are not visits. Better not to push luck IMO - a cancelled or refused visa will not make life easy in the future.

[rasg]

I was hoping that the two year visit visa would postpone the need for an engagement/marriage visa for a while, bearing in mind, we did only meet in very late January this year. I can't imagine life without her.

It seems that isn’t the case at all but an extra few months will make our minds up.

[7by7]

Many people have valid reasons why they want or need to make regular visits to the UK over a period of time.

Therefore, in addition to the basic 6 months visit visa, terms of 1, 2, 5 and 10 years are available.

However, regardless of the term of their visa, a standard visitor can only spend a maximum of 6 months per visit in the UK.

Although not an actual rule, there is a convention that a standard visitor should not spend more than 6 months out of any 12 in the UK. If it appears to immigration that a standard visitor may exceed this, then they may question them as to their intentions and could refuse entry if not satisfied that the person has acceptable reasons for spending so long in the UK.

I'm sorry, but "I want to spend more time with my boyfriend" would not be seen as an acceptable reason!

[rasg]

On that basis, bearing in mind that with a visit visa, the visitor can't work, can't study for more than a few weeks, I wonder what reasons they might have to come to the UK on a visit visa?

Interesting that it's a convention and not a rule and seems to be down to the individual officer when a visitor tries to enter the UK. A long way to come to be turned away.

Only in England...

Thanks for the information.

[bobrussell]

Someone living in the UK for a nine month period is not really a visitor for visa purposes. There really is no visa type for someone staying for that time. Visit or settlement and nothing in between.

Makes no difference whether it is a convention or rule when the cancelled stamp goes across the visa and entry is refused. It may be a long way to come to be sent back but that is the real risk.

Not quite sure how you got the two year visa, that was doing well in itself!

[rasg]

I was surprised when the two year visa was granted too! I pointed out in my sponsor letter that two years was the same as the cost of applying for one and we didn’t want to rush to get married. At the time I didn’t realise the limitations of the two year visitor visa or any of the visitor visas. Amazing how much you learn along the way.

The visa system isgeared to forcing people into a six month time frame to get married and is probably a factor in so many failed marriages between thai women and to UK men. We did only meet in very late January and I don't want to be one of those statistics if I can possibly avoid it.

[7by7]

On that basis, bearing in mind that with a visit visa, the visitor can't work, can't study for more than a few weeks, I wonder what reasons they might have to come to the UK on a visit visa?

Lots of reasons; the most obvious one being that they make regular trips to the UK to visit their British spouse/partner's family.

See Long-term visit visas (multiple entry) for the factors taken into account by ECOs when considering applications for long term visit visa.

Interesting that it's a convention and not a rule and seems to be down to the individual officer when a visitor tries to enter the UK. A long way to come to be turned away.

Some people may have legitimate reasons for spending more than 6 months out of 12 in the UK as a visitor.

An extreme example: just returned home after a lengthy visit only to be informed that a close family member, British and/or UK resident, is seriously ill, maybe terminally, and so they need to return to be with them.

Hence this flexibility of not making the "only 6 months out of 12" a hard and fast rule.

I note, though, that the guidance (Frequent or successive visits – how to assess if an applicant is making the UK their main home or place of work) now says, as Tony M did above,

the number of visits made over the past 12 months, including the length of stay on each occasion, the time elapsed since the last visit, and if this amounts to the individual spending more time in the UK than in their home country....

There is no specified maximum period which an individual can spend in the UK in any period such as ‘6 months in 12 months’. However, if it is clear from an individual’s travel history that they are making the UK their home you should refuse their application.

Note that is the guidance to ECOs when they are considering a visa application. The guidance to IOs to use when considering whether to refuse entry at the border more or less says the same.

But individual IOs cannot refuse a person entry on a whim; they have to have a valid reason for so doing and also need to have their decision confirmed by a senior officer.

<snip>

The visa system isgeared to forcing people into a six month time frame to get married and is probably a factor in so many failed marriages between thai women and to UK men.

I have no idea how you reached that conclusion. No one, least of all the British government, is forcing a couple to marry after they have known each other for 6 months!

Visit visas are for visits and are not to be used as a way of living in the UK in a manner similar to using visa runs to live in Thailand. Which, the more you post, seems to be what you want your girlfriend to be able to do!

I have often said, and will always believe, that a couple should never marry in order to get a visa. They should marry because they love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together.

If at the end of this visit the two of you are not sure that you want this, then wait until you are.

Yes, long distance relationships can be difficult and do require work. With modern ways of communicating such as Skype and Line it's a lot easier to maintain and develop a long distance relationship than it was for my wife and I: all we had whilst apart before we married and she moved to England was the telephone, email and snail mail.

[rasg]

Visit visas are for visits and are not to be used as a way of living in the UK in a manner similar to using visa runs to live in Thailand. Which, the more you post, seems to be what you want your girlfriend to be able to do!]

I don't think my four trips to Thailand and her one to the UK show that at all. I do have a business to run too to finance the good stuff, hence my four shortish trips. It's the lack of freedom for us to come and go as we please that applies to so many other nationalities that bugs me. If it is a genuine relationship and is proven to be so, in my opinion, if a visit visa is granted, the terms should not be so onerous. If a visitor isn’t using public funding at all, I just don't see why things are made so difficult.

Another difficulty for me is that you spend hours or days putting a visa application together, pay your money, and spend time waiting for a yes or no. You have the visa granted and you then have to go through the same interrogation, when you arrive in the UK. You've been through all that to get the visa. Why oh why, does it have to be done again when that visa has been granted? It's a poor system.

I have often said, and will always believe, that a couple should never marry in order to get a visa. They should marry because they love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together.

My thoughts exactly and a lot of what you just said I put in my sponsorship letter...

If at the end of this visit the two of you are not sure that you want this, then wait until you are.

But you can’t actually do that with an engagement/marriage visa. You have to get married in that six month period the way I understand it. Presumably you can change your mind and everybody simply goes home?

Yes, long distance relationships can be difficult and do require work. With modern ways of communicating such as Skype and Line it's a lot easier to maintain and develop a long distance relationship than it was for my wife and I: all we had whilst apart before we married and she moved to England was the telephone, email and snail mail.

I agree 100% with this. I spent two years with a girl who was English but was living in Los Angeles back in the late 1980s. I remember a phone bill for a one hour telephone call was £50! Maybe I should find somebody closer to home.

Edited November 17, 2015 by rasg

[rasg]

Sorry. It's me again. )

The other thing I find very frustrating is that the wording in so much of the guidance can be very misleading and it is the reason why I went for the two year visa in the first place. We wanted at least another six months or so together in the UK before we decided to marry. It was also the same cost as the one year...

Here it is. This is all over the web and also in the UKBA guidelines.

Validity of Visitor Visa



With a visitor visa you can usually enter and leave the UK any number of times while the visa is still valid. You cannot stay for longer than six months on each visit. Visit visas can be valid for six months, one year, two years, five years or 10 years. You can apply for a visa valid for any of these periods. The Entry Clearance Officer may decide to make your visa valid for a shorter time than you have asked for, for example if you are not a regular traveler or have never visited the UK before.

I read this to mean you can stay in the UK for six months, leave the country, say to Turkey, for a months holiday in the summer, come back to the UK and stay another couple of months. There is nothing to say that six months in one year is the maximum and could be refused entry.

If I hadn't been fortunate enough to get the second visa and have the "two visit visa conundrum" that I originally asked about I would have never known about the "guidelines" that are not rules. We could have come back from Turkey, or wherever we went, and my girlfriend could have been refused entry back into the UK and would have probably had trouble returning at all.

For me, it's all too vague.

[7by7]

That it is called a visit visa should, to me at least, make it fairly obvious that it is intended for visits, not for living long term in the UK!

But we will have to agree to disagree on that.

If at the end of this visit the two of you are not sure that you want this, then wait until you are.

But you can’t actually do that with an engagement/marriage visa. You have to get married in that six month period the way I understand it. Presumably you can change your mind and everybody simply goes home?

You have misunderstood the purpose of a fiance/engagement/marriage visa (all unofficial terms).

This type of visa is a category of settlement visa.

It is intended for, and should only be used by, people who have already decided to marry and want to do so in the UK and then apply for settlement (Further Leave to Remain) after the marriage; which needs to take place within the 6 months validity of the marriage.

The requirements for this, and the fee, are the same as for other forms of settlement visa, e.g. spouse; including the financial and language requirements and paying the NHS surcharge. Except for a spouse you need to show that you are already married, for a fiance you need to show that the marriage will take place within the validity of the visa.

That is why you will find guidance for this type of visa on the settlement pages of the UKVI site, not the visit ones!

There is also a marriage visit visa, which is for people who wish to visit the UK to marry but not settle and so will return home after the marriage. This type of visa, like other categories of visit visa, cannot be converted to settlement inside the UK.

Neither of these are designed to enable a couple to "see how we get along and then decide if we want to marry."

They are specifically designed for, and should only be used by, couples who have already made the decision to marry and wish to do so in the UK.

[bobrussell]

I have commented a number of times that the government are missing a trick or two here. There is no visa category that allows this sort of stay but really there should be. A longer visit visa that allows a stay of up to a year perhaps. Not convertible at any stage to settlement.

Could be pricey so a good revenue source. Health Surcharge at a suitable rate to cover the period. Requirement to pay council tax etc but no right to work.

Anyone trying to use a 2 year visa to do this is going to come a cropper as soon as someone picks up on it.

[rasg]

7by7.

You have explained more to me about the system in a few paragraphs than you can ever find on the official website because you have explained it so well. I think you should write the UKBA website for them.

Thank you for your help. Without it we would have been in trouble.

I am fortunate that I have a business that gives me the freedom and money to be able to visit Thailand reasonably frequently based around my workload. I feel sorry for the people who work hard for a living on a salary that only just hits the £18,600 threshold who struggle to get any type of visa in the first place.

That it is called a visit visa should, to me at least, make it fairly obvious that it is intended for visits, not for living long term in the UK!

I honestly don't see the difference between a one month trip to the UK and an eight month visit to the UK if the person is in a position to do it.

Validity of Visitor Visa



With a visitor visa you can usually enter and leave the UK any number of times while the visa is still valid. You cannot stay for longer than six months on each visit. Visit visas can be valid for six months, one year, two years, five years or 10 years. You can apply for a visa valid for any of these periods. The Entry Clearance Officer may decide to make your visa valid for a shorter time than you have asked for, for example if you are not a regular traveler or have never visited the UK before.

And this paragraph is downright misleading to somebody who is thinking of applying for a longer visit visa than six months or already has one.

Bob. I think you are right. From the responses I have had, everybody who commented, here and elsewhere, was surprised that we actually got a two year visit visa in the first place. It is s a shame to find out it is no more use than a 6 month visit visa apart from the lack of schlepping to and from Bangkok. This forum has the most knowledge, by a long way, by the way.

I don't think that visas should be any kind of revenue source, by the way. At all. I foolishly tried an official helpline last week to get some more information last week. £1.37 a minute! A disgrace as the information the woman provided was as much use as a chocolate teapot. She simply couldn’t answer my questions.

Edited November 18, 2015 by rasg

[bobrussell]

Visas should generate revenue to cover the costs of a good, workable immigration system. I doubt the present system covers the true costs of the UKVI and all the linked bureaucracy although they cover significantly more than the actual processing costs in most categories.

I have little complaint with visa processing being more than self-financing but I do have complaints about the standards of service. Someone moving to the UK is going to use resources and it is not inappropriate that they should pay for that.

The international helpline is a complete waste of time as soon as you ask a real question. The EU line is manned by far more knowledgable staff in my experience.

[rasg]

Once again, I have found out about something I didn’t know!

The EU line?

This was a very interesting read, by the way.

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2007/jan/uk-ho-immig-decision-making-study.pdf

Once granted a visa, I had no idea that UKBA essentially, can take the visa holder through the whole thing again, if they are the mood to do so, when you try and use that visa.