Turkey 'shoots down' warplane near Syrian-Turkish border

[JHolmesJr]

Putins spent a lifetime fishing with his shirt off, wrestling bears and riding half naked on a horse to build his macho image….he has an image to protect in russia…if he does nothing his approval rating will plummet…wow these turks sure don't know shit. What have they done?

[manarak]

Me and almost all of my leftist and secularist Turkish friends are cheering for Putin now. We have had enough of this Erdogan guy and his thugs. He has been dragging Turkey lower and lower, in relation to democracy, human rights and diplomatic relations. Almost every week, Turkey's name appears on the headlines for all the bad reasons, due to these extreme right-wing thugs.

Putin will probably respond with the 'natural gas' and 'tourism' card, for now. But if even just one more such incident happens, he will respond militarily for sure.

Erdogan is probably relying on the cold West-Russia relations (especially due to Ukraine stuff). But I think it is just a matter of time before the West's support for him ends.

I think Putin will respond militarily anyway.

If I were Turkmen I'd be running for cover right now.

He has no targets. He will wait until the Turks cross the line.

[mcfish]

Hey, if he was bombing them then son num na.

US and NATO and now Russia has been bombing ISIS for a long time now so maybe we should say that the attack in Paris and on the Russian airliner son num na too?!

And the bombing in BKK that must clearly be son num na as Thailand did send those Uighurs to China where the Uighurs are classified as terrorists killing unarmed people with swords and so on...

Don't get all silly.

I just said that if these pilots were trying to kill them, then you can't really blame them for wanting to kill the pilots, can you?

In a "normal" war perhaps but ISIS makes HD vids of prisoners burned alive, or drowned alive all on film , Paris etc.

Who"s side are you on anyway?

[Morch]

Where the plain crashed, where it was shot down and the location at the time of the first warning issued are all different things. The pilots could have ended up quite far from the wreckage.

Operating that near to the border, not hard to imagine the crew blundering, not identifying their targets and ending up on the wrong side. Wondering how much actual combat experience this Russian pilots have, and how good are their intel, navigation and targeting systems. On the other side of the border, the Turks would rightly be alarmed when it comes to any aircraft invading their space (or heading their way). It is very likely that there were similar incidents which did not had such an outcome, so things were already tense - and command mistakes could be made by the intercepting side as well. The radar data could be verified by NATO, but this is more about diplomacy than facts.

One of the first things Russia did as it went on its air campaign was coordinate things with neighboring countries and other forces operating in the area. Found references to Lebanon, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel, USA and the Coalition in general, but nothing specific about Turkey. If there is no firm coordination, such incidents are bound to happen.

I doubt that there will be a a direct or full military confrontation between Russia and Turkey. Not in the interests of either, right now. More muscles flexed, perhaps, but the main action will be on the media and on diplomatic channels.

[Morch]

For a diplomatic start:

1) Syria should tell Turkey no longer more to fly into Syrian Airspace. If they do Russian Airforce will get the green light to shot down any Turkish plane flying over Syria. Iraq might extend as well the no fly zone for any Turkish jets into Iraqi airspace.

2) All Russian tourists to be evacuated from Turkey and a total ban of Russian tourists from entering Turkey for the next 2 years. Stop issuing visas to any Turks to Russia.

3) Recall the Russian Ambassador from Turkey.

4) Ban on all imports from Turkey to Russia.

5) Develop Russian cooperation with Armenia.

6) Pull out all Russian investment from Turkey.

In today's world Turkey is a nobody and they keep sending 10,000 migrants a day into Europe. Turkey is not a partner of Europe but the biggest enemy Europe can have.

If I were Russia, I would even go further and have airstrikes inside Turkey and forget NATO, they would not go into war with Russia for another Muslim country where the president itself is a Islamic fanatic. If Ataturk would be still alive he would have hanged that Sultan Erdogan bastaxd himself.

Sounds like a recipe for further escalating things rather than a finding a diplomatic solution.

Turkey is hardly a nobody. Location location location. and masses of refugees that would otherwise head to Europe, just to name two factors.

What would Russia gain at this time by opening yet another front?

[manarak]

In a related incident, Syrian rebels claimed to have shot down a Russian helicopter searching for the downed pilots, using U.S.-supplied TOW missiles, according to multiple media outlets citing the London-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. All 10 occupants of the craft evacuated safely, the Observatory's Rami Abdulrahman told The Guardian.

:-/

that's not going to help either.

[Morch]

Me and almost all of my leftist and secularist Turkish friends are cheering for Putin now. We have had enough of this Erdogan guy and his thugs. He has been dragging Turkey lower and lower, in relation to democracy, human rights and diplomatic relations. Almost every week, Turkey's name appears on the headlines for all the bad reasons, due to these extreme right-wing thugs.

Putin will probably respond with the 'natural gas' and 'tourism' card, for now. But if even just one more such incident happens, he will respond militarily for sure.

Erdogan is probably relying on the cold West-Russia relations (especially due to Ukraine stuff). But I think it is just a matter of time before the West's support for him ends.

Thing is Erdogan thrives on outside pressure. Just gives him someone to rile against and blame for everything. Because if Russia would actually do something like that who get hurt? Some random Turkish soldiers, civilians as collateral damage. And who rushes to politically profit from such things?....yeah.

[manarak]

For a diplomatic start:

1) Syria should tell Turkey no longer more to fly into Syrian Airspace. If they do Russian Airforce will get the green light to shot down any Turkish plane flying over Syria. Iraq might extend as well the no fly zone for any Turkish jets into Iraqi airspace.

2) All Russian tourists to be evacuated from Turkey and a total ban of Russian tourists from entering Turkey for the next 2 years. Stop issuing visas to any Turks to Russia.

3) Recall the Russian Ambassador from Turkey.

4) Ban on all imports from Turkey to Russia.

5) Develop Russian cooperation with Armenia.

6) Pull out all Russian investment from Turkey.

In today's world Turkey is a nobody and they keep sending 10,000 migrants a day into Europe. Turkey is not a partner of Europe but the biggest enemy Europe can have.

If I were Russia, I would even go further and have airstrikes inside Turkey and forget NATO, they would not go into war with Russia for another Muslim country where the president itself is a Islamic fanatic. If Ataturk would be still alive he would have hanged that Sultan Erdogan bastaxd himself.

Sounds like a recipe for further escalating things rather than a finding a diplomatic solution.

Turkey is hardly a nobody. Location location location. and masses of refugees that would otherwise head to Europe, just to name two factors.

What would Russia gain at this time by opening yet another front?

Turkey has been playing a dirty game there for too long and particularly Erdogan has been extremely annoying in the past years with his Islamist agenda. He needs to be taught a lesson, I hope the Russians can do it without risk for stability.

Yes, I think Russia will ignore Turkey proper and instead annihilate the Turkmen militia in the region and maybe seize future opportunities to shoot down Turkish airplanes bombing Kurds.

I think Turkey will allow the militia to retreat inside Turkey, which could possibly force Russia to station ground troops there to keep the Turkey border region under control, otherwise the militias could just attack from Syria.

It wouldn't be a bad thing if Russia was controlling that border, because Turkey still lets many terrorists through to join rebel islamist ranks in Syria.

Edited November 24, 2015 by manarak

[mpa]

This is BIG.

Vlad will be mightily pissed.

i have been saying for years now that Turkey is cruising for a bruising with the Mad Sultan in office

Will Russia reply with force?

Russia wasn't flying in Turkish airspace.

It was bombing Turkmen villages in Syria that have rebelled against Assad, with the support of Turkey, and eyeing some kind of Independence if conditions allow.

..so..basically The Mad Sultan was acting in support of his Turkic cousins.

..and talking about airspace violations, a Greek friend was telling me recently that Turkey has been sending fighter jets almost daily into Greek airspace for the last 30 years.

NATO allies...<deleted>?

Correct and ironic at the same time.

Turkey and Greece are NATO members -considered allies- with Turkay violating Greek air space since like forever.

Cyprus invasion took place under the NATO umbrella as well.

[Lukecan]

For a diplomatic start:

1) Syria should tell Turkey no longer more to fly into Syrian Airspace. If they do Russian Airforce will get the green light to shot down any Turkish plane flying over Syria. Iraq might extend as well the no fly zone for any Turkish jets into Iraqi airspace.

2) All Russian tourists to be evacuated from Turkey and a total ban of Russian tourists from entering Turkey for the next 2 years. Stop issuing visas to any Turks to Russia.

3) Recall the Russian Ambassador from Turkey.

4) Ban on all imports from Turkey to Russia.

5) Develop Russian cooperation with Armenia.

6) Pull out all Russian investment from Turkey.

In today's world Turkey is a nobody and they keep sending 10,000 migrants a day into Europe. Turkey is not a partner of Europe but the biggest enemy Europe can have.

If I were Russia, I would even go further and have airstrikes inside Turkey and forget NATO, they would not go into war with Russia for another Muslim country where the president itself is a Islamic fanatic. If Ataturk would be still alive he would have hanged that Sultan Erdogan bastaxd himself.

Sounds like a recipe for further escalating things rather than a finding a diplomatic solution.

Turkey is hardly a nobody. Location location location. and masses of refugees that would otherwise head to Europe, just to name two factors.

What would Russia gain at this time by opening yet another front?

Turkey has been playing a dirty game there for too long and particularly Erdogan has been extremely annoying in the past years with his Islamist agenda. He needs to be taught a lesson, I hope the Russians can do it without risk for stability.

Yes, I think Russia will ignore Turkey proper and instead annihilate the Turkmen militia in the region and maybe seize future opportunities to shoot down Turkish airplanes bombing Kurds.

I think Turkey will allow the militia to retreat inside Turkey, which could possibly force Russia to station ground troops there to keep the Turkey border region under control, otherwise the militias could just attack from Syria.

It wouldn't be a bad thing if Russia was controlling that border, because Turkey still lets many terrorists through to join rebel islamist ranks in Syria.

Erdogan is the only western aligned leader which has refused to impose sanctions on Russia. Putin hasn't got a clue about what he's doing. He annexed Ukraine, now he opened a front in Syria, and finally he's messing with us.

By the way this all will be forgotten in the near future. Russia is one of Turkeys biggest trading partner. We're their biggest customer of natural gas after Germany, and a big lot of Russian tourists come to Turkey to enjoy the sun. Theres a huge Russian community inside Turkey, and they've integrated very well unlike the Kurds.

I just hope that those two pilots are returned safely to Russia.

[manarak]

For a diplomatic start:

1) Syria should tell Turkey no longer more to fly into Syrian Airspace. If they do Russian Airforce will get the green light to shot down any Turkish plane flying over Syria. Iraq might extend as well the no fly zone for any Turkish jets into Iraqi airspace.

2) All Russian tourists to be evacuated from Turkey and a total ban of Russian tourists from entering Turkey for the next 2 years. Stop issuing visas to any Turks to Russia.

3) Recall the Russian Ambassador from Turkey.

4) Ban on all imports from Turkey to Russia.

5) Develop Russian cooperation with Armenia.

6) Pull out all Russian investment from Turkey.

In today's world Turkey is a nobody and they keep sending 10,000 migrants a day into Europe. Turkey is not a partner of Europe but the biggest enemy Europe can have.

If I were Russia, I would even go further and have airstrikes inside Turkey and forget NATO, they would not go into war with Russia for another Muslim country where the president itself is a Islamic fanatic. If Ataturk would be still alive he would have hanged that Sultan Erdogan bastaxd himself.

Sounds like a recipe for further escalating things rather than a finding a diplomatic solution.

Turkey is hardly a nobody. Location location location. and masses of refugees that would otherwise head to Europe, just to name two factors.

What would Russia gain at this time by opening yet another front?

Turkey has been playing a dirty game there for too long and particularly Erdogan has been extremely annoying in the past years with his Islamist agenda. He needs to be taught a lesson, I hope the Russians can do it without risk for stability.

Yes, I think Russia will ignore Turkey proper and instead annihilate the Turkmen militia in the region and maybe seize future opportunities to shoot down Turkish airplanes bombing Kurds.

I think Turkey will allow the militia to retreat inside Turkey, which could possibly force Russia to station ground troops there to keep the Turkey border region under control, otherwise the militias could just attack from Syria.

It wouldn't be a bad thing if Russia was controlling that border, because Turkey still lets many terrorists through to join rebel islamist ranks in Syria.

Erdogan is the only western aligned leader which has refused to impose sanctions on Russia. Putin hasn't got a clue about what he's doing. He annexed Ukraine, now he opened a front in Syria, and finally he's messing with us.

By the way this all will be forgotten in the near future. Russia is one of Turkeys biggest trading partner. We're their biggest customer of natural gas after Germany, and a big lot of Russian tourists come to Turkey to enjoy the sun. Theres a huge Russian community inside Turkey, and they've integrated very well unlike the Kurds.

I just hope that those two pilots are returned safely to Russia.

They both have been killed by your buddies the "Turkmen" rebels who speak Arabic on the video.

Now someone somewhere has to do some quick thinking... are the rebels there Turkmens or Arabs ?

Edited November 24, 2015 by manarak

[Lukecan]

^

That's another incident, according to latest news the pilots of the jet are safe and sound, the Turkish Intelligence Agency is trying to get them back from the rebels as we speak.

[Morch]

Turkey doesn't get top of the line avionics from the US. Doesn't say much for the latest Russian fighters if a Turkish F16 shot one down.

F16 was taken in to service 1978, the Russian SU-24 was taken in to service 1971 so it's even an older plane than the F16!

The Russian Su-24's in Syria are Su-24M2, meaning they had at least a couple of upgrades,(circa 2000).

The Turkish F-16 are locally made, and if front-line, should be block 50, but probably modified. Not too shabby.

[heina]

^

That's another incident, according to latest news the pilots of the jet are safe and sound, the Turkish Intelligence Agency is trying to get them back from the rebels as we speak.

Pilots have been shoot dead by Turkoman`s "Turkish brothers".

[manarak]

^

That's another incident, according to latest news the pilots of the jet are safe and sound, the Turkish Intelligence Agency is trying to get them back from the rebels as we speak.

indeed, I just read that as well.

let's hope it is true!

but it is almost too good to be true, because this could let Putin save face.

Edited November 24, 2015 by manarak

[Basil B]

here is the village of Yamadi (crash site) and its situation relative to the Turkish-Syrian borderyamadi.png

Looking at the map, I would find it hard to believe that the plane did not overfly Turkey... and was probably over Turkish airspace when the missile was fired.

Seems OK for Russia to blast civilian planes out of the sky (Korean Air flight 007 & Malaysian flight 17), but they cry foul when a military aircraft that invades air space of another country after repeated warnings not to is shot down.

[Lukecan]

here is the village of Yamadi (crash site) and its situation relative to the Turkish-Syrian borderyamadi.png

Looking at the map, I would find it hard to believe that the plane did not overfly Turkey... and was probably over Turkish airspace when the missile was fired.

Seems OK for Russia to blast civilian planes out of the sky (Korean Air flight 007 & Malaysian flight 17), but they cry foul when a military aircraft that invades air space of another country after repeated warnings not to is shot down.

Turkish Military released the radar footage, the planes violated the airspace several times. They've been warned plenty too.

[Lukecan]

^

That's another incident, according to latest news the pilots of the jet are safe and sound, the Turkish Intelligence Agency is trying to get them back from the rebels as we speak.

indeed, I just read that as well.

let's hope it is true!

I hope its true as well, I hate ISIS or DAESH. But those Turkmens are not alligned with ISIS, just because they say allahu ekber doesn't mean they support ISIS. You need some kind of motivation when you're fighting a war . Turkmens have been fighting both ISIS and the Kurds.

[manarak]

here is the village of Yamadi (crash site) and its situation relative to the Turkish-Syrian borderyamadi.png

Looking at the map, I would find it hard to believe that the plane did not overfly Turkey... and was probably over Turkish airspace when the missile was fired.

Seems OK for Russia to blast civilian planes out of the sky (Korean Air flight 007 & Malaysian flight 17), but they cry foul when a military aircraft that invades air space of another country after repeated warnings not to is shot down.

well, I think the Turks behaved like asses, read my other posts after that one

from the Guardian's website:

White House: 'Russian incursion into Turkish airspace lasted seconds'

Russia’s operation in Syria will continue despite the downing of a Russian fighter jet by the Turkish air force, the Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov has said. Meanwhile, a US official has said that initial indications are that the Russian incursion into Turkish airspace lasted a matter of seconds.

[manarak]

^

That's another incident, according to latest news the pilots of the jet are safe and sound, the Turkish Intelligence Agency is trying to get them back from the rebels as we speak.

indeed, I just read that as well.

let's hope it is true!

I hope its true as well, I hate ISIS or DAESH. But those Turkmens are not alligned with ISIS, just because they say allahu ekber doesn't mean they support ISIS. You need some kind of motivation when you're fighting a war . Turkmens have been fighting both ISIS and the Kurds.

Look, something doesn't add up here. If the Turkmen militias are so anti-ISIS, why do they let terrorists pass through their territory and why do they let the arms trade happen and why do they let tankers full of ISIS oil pass ?

[Andaman Al]

For a diplomatic start:

1) Syria should tell Turkey no longer more to fly into Syrian Airspace. If they do Russian Airforce will get the green light to shot down any Turkish plane flying over Syria. Iraq might extend as well the no fly zone for any Turkish jets into Iraqi airspace.

2) All Russian tourists to be evacuated from Turkey and a total ban of Russian tourists from entering Turkey for the next 2 years. Stop issuing visas to any Turks to Russia.

3) Recall the Russian Ambassador from Turkey.

4) Ban on all imports from Turkey to Russia.

5) Develop Russian cooperation with Armenia.

6) Pull out all Russian investment from Turkey.

In today's world Turkey is a nobody and they keep sending 10,000 migrants a day into Europe. Turkey is not a partner of Europe but the biggest enemy Europe can have.

If I were Russia, I would even go further and have airstrikes inside Turkey and forget NATO, they would not go into war with Russia for another Muslim country where the president itself is a Islamic fanatic. If Ataturk would be still alive he would have hanged that Sultan Erdogan bastaxd himself.

Sounds like a recipe for further escalating things rather than a finding a diplomatic solution.

Turkey is hardly a nobody. Location location location. and masses of refugees that would otherwise head to Europe, just to name two factors.

What would Russia gain at this time by opening yet another front?

Turkey has been playing a dirty game there for too long and particularly Erdogan has been extremely annoying in the past years with his Islamist agenda. He needs to be taught a lesson, I hope the Russians can do it without risk for stability.

Yes, I think Russia will ignore Turkey proper and instead annihilate the Turkmen militia in the region and maybe seize future opportunities to shoot down Turkish airplanes bombing Kurds.

I think Turkey will allow the militia to retreat inside Turkey, which could possibly force Russia to station ground troops there to keep the Turkey border region under control, otherwise the militias could just attack from Syria.

It wouldn't be a bad thing if Russia was controlling that border, because Turkey still lets many terrorists through to join rebel islamist ranks in Syria.

Erdogan is the only western aligned leader which has refused to impose sanctions on Russia. Putin hasn't got a clue about what he's doing. He annexed Ukraine, now he opened a front in Syria, and finally he's messing with us.

By the way this all will be forgotten in the near future. Russia is one of Turkeys biggest trading partner. We're their biggest customer of natural gas after Germany, and a big lot of Russian tourists come to Turkey to enjoy the sun. Theres a huge Russian community inside Turkey, and they've integrated very well unlike the Kurds.

I just hope that those two pilots are returned safely to Russia.

Well they refused to impose sanctions because Russia would have cut off supplies of natural Gas.

Yes, until today Turkey WAS a number 1 destination for Russian tourists - that will stop very quickly

There is always another customer for Russia's natural gas. I hope Putin turns the pipeline off tonight.

Putin has more of a clue what he is doing than all the clues of all the other western leaders put together.

[lee b]

That's another turkey that will be getting roasted this Christmas

How can you think this is some kind of joke? If the s hits the fan we will all be roasted!!

[Lukecan]

@Andaman

Turkey has plenty of options to buy natural gas from unlike Europe, we can get it from Azerbaijan or Iran. The reason why we're buying the bulk from Russia is because of the competitive prices they've been offering lately. Regarding Russian tourists, where will they go? Egypt? They can't afford Pattaya anymore because of the strong baht, lucky for them Turkish Lira weakened in a similar way to the ruble.

West is winning the war against Putin, Ruble devalued from 30 to 70 without US lifting their arm, with only very basic sanctions. Russian economy is dependant on commodities, and they're out of luck, commodity prices are at the bottom. They're expected to be in recession for at least 3 more years, and losing Turkey as a customer will screw them more up. What's holding them together right now is the patriotic feelings, but they've gotten 50% more poorer compared to last year.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Lukecan

[manarak]

Putins spent a lifetime fishing with his shirt off, wrestling bears and riding half naked on a horse to build his macho image….he has an image to protect in russia…if he does nothing his approval rating will plummet…wow these turks sure don't know shit. What have they done?

Exactly what Russia did with MH17 and KAL007.

Why?

no, the situations are quite different.

KAL007 was still during the analog era and during the boneheaded cold war, so not even worth comparing.

Regarding MH17, I am convinced it was a honest error made due to stupidity and not an intentional attack to bring down a civilian airliner. They just can't admit it.

Minutes after the downing, the separatist rebel leader there proclaimed proudly that they just had shot down a Ukrainian large body jet.

The Turks have deliberately shot down the Russian SU-24 that was no threat to Turkey simply as a petty payback for the Russian attacks on Turkey-aligned Syrian militias, because of the Russian's plane repeated 15 seconds incursions over a minuscule stretch of Turkish land, 2.3 Km in width...

Edited November 24, 2015 by manarak

[Morch]

For a diplomatic start:

1) Syria should tell Turkey no longer more to fly into Syrian Airspace. If they do Russian Airforce will get the green light to shot down any Turkish plane flying over Syria. Iraq might extend as well the no fly zone for any Turkish jets into Iraqi airspace.

2) All Russian tourists to be evacuated from Turkey and a total ban of Russian tourists from entering Turkey for the next 2 years. Stop issuing visas to any Turks to Russia.

3) Recall the Russian Ambassador from Turkey.

4) Ban on all imports from Turkey to Russia.

5) Develop Russian cooperation with Armenia.

6) Pull out all Russian investment from Turkey.

In today's world Turkey is a nobody and they keep sending 10,000 migrants a day into Europe. Turkey is not a partner of Europe but the biggest enemy Europe can have.

If I were Russia, I would even go further and have airstrikes inside Turkey and forget NATO, they would not go into war with Russia for another Muslim country where the president itself is a Islamic fanatic. If Ataturk would be still alive he would have hanged that Sultan Erdogan bastaxd himself.

Sounds like a recipe for further escalating things rather than a finding a diplomatic solution.

Turkey is hardly a nobody. Location location location. and masses of refugees that would otherwise head to Europe, just to name two factors.

What would Russia gain at this time by opening yet another front?

Turkey has been playing a dirty game there for too long and particularly Erdogan has been extremely annoying in the past years with his Islamist agenda. He needs to be taught a lesson, I hope the Russians can do it without risk for stability.

Yes, I think Russia will ignore Turkey proper and instead annihilate the Turkmen militia in the region and maybe seize future opportunities to shoot down Turkish airplanes bombing Kurds.

I think Turkey will allow the militia to retreat inside Turkey, which could possibly force Russia to station ground troops there to keep the Turkey border region under control, otherwise the militias could just attack from Syria.

It wouldn't be a bad thing if Russia was controlling that border, because Turkey still lets many terrorists through to join rebel islamist ranks in Syria.

I don't think anyone, neither the Russians nor the coalition, really trusts Turkey or supports its actions. The Turks are simply in a position to do as they will, as long as its not overly obvious. Both the West (EU/NATO) and the Russians stand to lose too much by messing relationship with Turkey, which is why I think there will be nothing major. Then again, when you got the Middle East, Erdogan and Putin on the same OP, "volatile" is a mild way to describe things.

Concur Russia will not cease attacking in the area and Turkey allowing retreat into its territory. As for intercepting Turkish planes - maybe, but probably not as in actually shooting down, there are several ways to send a message without going that far. Russian ground troops on the border? Unlikely. Too much manpower, to much of an easy target for whomever. Also, this would further hurt Assad's already minimal prestige, so depends on which angle he is played.

I doubt Putin actually wants to maintain a massive long term ground presence in Syria - "Never get involved in a land war in Asia".

[manarak]

For a diplomatic start:

1) Syria should tell Turkey no longer more to fly into Syrian Airspace. If they do Russian Airforce will get the green light to shot down any Turkish plane flying over Syria. Iraq might extend as well the no fly zone for any Turkish jets into Iraqi airspace.

2) All Russian tourists to be evacuated from Turkey and a total ban of Russian tourists from entering Turkey for the next 2 years. Stop issuing visas to any Turks to Russia.

3) Recall the Russian Ambassador from Turkey.

4) Ban on all imports from Turkey to Russia.

5) Develop Russian cooperation with Armenia.

6) Pull out all Russian investment from Turkey.

In today's world Turkey is a nobody and they keep sending 10,000 migrants a day into Europe. Turkey is not a partner of Europe but the biggest enemy Europe can have.

If I were Russia, I would even go further and have airstrikes inside Turkey and forget NATO, they would not go into war with Russia for another Muslim country where the president itself is a Islamic fanatic. If Ataturk would be still alive he would have hanged that Sultan Erdogan bastaxd himself.

Sounds like a recipe for further escalating things rather than a finding a diplomatic solution.

Turkey is hardly a nobody. Location location location. and masses of refugees that would otherwise head to Europe, just to name two factors.

What would Russia gain at this time by opening yet another front?

Turkey has been playing a dirty game there for too long and particularly Erdogan has been extremely annoying in the past years with his Islamist agenda. He needs to be taught a lesson, I hope the Russians can do it without risk for stability.

Yes, I think Russia will ignore Turkey proper and instead annihilate the Turkmen militia in the region and maybe seize future opportunities to shoot down Turkish airplanes bombing Kurds.

I think Turkey will allow the militia to retreat inside Turkey, which could possibly force Russia to station ground troops there to keep the Turkey border region under control, otherwise the militias could just attack from Syria.

It wouldn't be a bad thing if Russia was controlling that border, because Turkey still lets many terrorists through to join rebel islamist ranks in Syria.

I don't think anyone, neither the Russians nor the coalition, really trusts Turkey or supports its actions. The Turks are simply in a position to do as they will, as long as its not overly obvious. Both the West (EU/NATO) and the Russians stand to lose too much by messing relationship with Turkey, which is why I think there will be nothing major. Then again, when you got the Middle East, Erdogan and Putin on the same OP, "volatile" is a mild way to describe things.

Concur Russia will not cease attacking in the area and Turkey allowing retreat into its territory. As for intercepting Turkish planes - maybe, but probably not as in actually shooting down, there are several ways to send a message without going that far. Russian ground troops on the border? Unlikely. Too much manpower, to much of an easy target for whomever. Also, this would further hurt Assad's already minimal prestige, so depends on which angle he is played.

I doubt Putin actually wants to maintain a massive long term ground presence in Syria - "Never get involved in a land war in Asia".

Okay, the question is on the table: who will secure that area once the Russians have bombed the shit out of everything there?

Because if the border is not tight, Turkey will likely knife Syria in the back.

I don't think Assad got enough manpower to keep the border tight.

[Andaman Al]

^

That's another incident, according to latest news the pilots of the jet are safe and sound, the Turkish Intelligence Agency is trying to get them back from the rebels as we speak.

So what 'other incident' is this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IZ-TALZtGw

The guy on the ground is a jet pilot. Doesn't look like Turkish Intelligence (an oxymoron) agencies will get him home safe and sound!

[Andaman Al]

@Andaman

Turkey has plenty of options to buy natural gas from unlike Europe, we can get it from Azerbaijan or Iran. The reason why we're buying the bulk from Russia is because of the competitive prices they've been offering lately. Regarding Russian tourists, where will they go? Egypt? They can't afford Pattaya anymore because of the strong baht, lucky for them Turkish Lira weakened in a similar way to the ruble.

West is winning the war against Putin, Ruble devalued from 30 to 70 without US lifting their arm, with only very basic sanctions. Russian economy is dependant on commodities, and they're out of luck, commodity prices are at the bottom. They're expected to be in recession for at least 3 more years, and losing Turkey as a customer will screw them more up. What's holding them together right now is the patriotic feelings, but they've gotten 50% more poorer compared to last year.

Well good luck with buying anything from Iran if you are an ex-customer of Russia. Russian tourists will go wherever they can but they will not go where their country prohibits them to go Yes Russia needs to generate more cash from resources, I guess a few well placed nukes now will extend the Russian border considerably They will stop the refugees coming into Europe.

Whatever your arguments, Turkey has made a big big mistake and whether Putin decides to act now whilst in rage or if he believes revenge is a dish best served cold, mark his words on the interview. Turkey will pay for what happened today. I hope that alongside side his intentions it further motivates him to eradicate ISIS from the face of the planet.

If Carson and Trump drop out is it too late to get Putin a slot? I have heard birth certificates are no issue

Edited November 24, 2015 by Andaman Al

[Lukecan]

^

That's another incident, according to latest news the pilots of the jet are safe and sound, the Turkish Intelligence Agency is trying to get them back from the rebels as we speak.

So what 'other incident' is this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IZ-TALZtGw

The guy on the ground is a jet pilot. Doesn't look like Turkish Intelligence (an oxymoron) agencies will get him home safe and sound!

That's an another incident, they also shot a chopper down. It's a chopper pilot. The prime minister has confirmed that both of the pilots are alive and well.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/dusurulen-ucagin-olen-rus-pilotlari-esir-alinmak-istenmis-40018254

This is the source, its in Turkish tho.

[Andaman Al]

^

That's another incident, according to latest news the pilots of the jet are safe and sound, the Turkish Intelligence Agency is trying to get them back from the rebels as we speak.

So what 'other incident' is this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IZ-TALZtGw

The guy on the ground is a jet pilot. Doesn't look like Turkish Intelligence (an oxymoron) agencies will get him home safe and sound!

That's an another incident, they also shot a chopper down. It's a chopper pilot. The prime minister has confirmed that both of the pilots are alive and well.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/dusurulen-ucagin-olen-rus-pilotlari-esir-alinmak-istenmis-40018254

This is the source, its in Turkish tho.

The guy's parachuting are not parachuting from a 'chopper' and the guy on the ground is not a 'chopper' pilot. He is a jet pilot. They wear different clothes don't you know And chopper pilots do not wear G-pants.