Our Fish Farming Experiment....

[Chris.B]

Aprroximately 11 weeks ago my wife and I had two concrete tanks constructed in the back garden of our home in Nakhon Sawan province. Each tank has the following dimensions:- 3m long x 2.5m wide x 1m high. We filled these tanks with water from a well we already had in our garden. In to each tank we put 4000 catfish 'fingerlings'. That is 8000 catfish total! Cost of the catfish where 0.8 baht/fingerling for 6000 fingerlings and 0.75 baht/fingerlings for the final 2000 fingerlings.

We are feeding the fish with approximately 20 kg of fish food a week which costs about 395 baht/20 kg bag. We change the water regular and use 'medicine' when necessary. Even though we are using water from the well on a few occasions we had to use 'bubba', i.e. water from the Water Company supply, this appeared to have no ill effects.

Now 11 weeks on and the fish appear to be growing well but some are growing faster than others. We are now moving onto the next stage which is finding buyers for the fish.

This shows our concrete tanks with sunshade erected over, also to keep out debris.

Inside the tanks.

This picture shows our well.

Concrete rings intended to grow fry into fingerlings but being used as a 'hospital' for fish.

Edited October 7, 2006 by Chris.B

[malcolminthemiddle]

When I was working in Laos I got involved indirectly with alternative sustainable farming to replace paddy fields that were needed for a new road connecting Northern Thailand with Sourthern China.

Small scale fish farming was a popular choise using all male Tapia fingerlings which helps the process since fish are not interested in feeding when they are spawning, seemingly.

[Somtham]

Now 11 weeks on and the fish appear to be growing well but some are growing faster than others. We are now moving onto the next stage which is finding buyers for the fish.

11 weeks sounds really fast to sell marketable fish. From what I have seen there are 3 types of catfish produced locally. Big Ooi, Latsia, and Ooi Na. Big Ooi is a breed from the last 2 with the dad being Latsia and the mom being Ooi Na. I understand the Ooi Na are very difficult to raise and have not been able to find fingerlings. The Latsia are cannibalistic and grow faster than the Big Ooi.

Not sure which fish you're growing but with all the recent flooding prices have dropped due to availability of natural fish. Latsia are selling for around 23-24 baht per kilo this week and Big Ooi around 29 baht per kilo. Buyers prefer fish at 4 fish per kilo. 3-5 is good. You should go back to the place where you boought the fingerlings and they can tell you who will come and buy the fish. there are plenty of folks in your area.

[Nawtilus]

Keep us updated, always interested to hear first hand how projects like this work out and the final success...or not and the costs versus income etc.

[Chris.B]

11 weeks sounds really fast to sell marketable fish. From what I have seen there are 3 types of catfish produced locally. Big Ooi, Latsia, and Ooi Na. Big Ooi is a breed from the last 2 with the dad being Latsia and the mom being Ooi Na. I understand the Ooi Na are very difficult to raise and have not been able to find fingerlings. The Latsia are cannibalistic and grow faster than the Big Ooi.

Not sure which fish you're growing but with all the recent flooding prices have dropped due to availability of natural fish. Latsia are selling for around 23-24 baht per kilo this week and Big Ooi around 29 baht per kilo. Buyers prefer fish at 4 fish per kilo. 3-5 is good. You should go back to the place where you boought the fingerlings and they can tell you who will come and buy the fish. there are plenty of folks in your area.

Thanks for the info Somtham, really useful! I have quizzed the wife and she recognizes two names, Big Ooi and Pla Dook Oui, the latter is what I think you are calling Ooi Na. She doesn't recognize the term Latsia, anyone know that in Thai? I think we have Ooi Na as they are the smaller catfish. My wife says when their skin is tinged with yellow they are alloy mak mak

My wife has mentioned another name which is Pla Dook N which she says is mai alloy.

When I was in Thailand 10 weeks ago Big Ooi where selling at 45 baht/kilo, this was in Kampeng Phet. If the price has dropped due to abundance of wild fish in the floods then it may be prudent to hold off selling until the floods subsides.

Edited October 9, 2006 by Chris.B

[Somtham]

Thanks for the info Somtham, really useful! I have quizzed the wife and she recognizes two names, Big Ooi and Pla Dook Oui, the latter is what I think you are calling Ooi Na. She doesn't recognize the term Latsia, anyone know that in Thai? I think we have Ooi Na as they are the smaller catfish. My wife says when their skin is tinged with yellow they are alloy mak mak

My wife has mentioned another name which is Pla Dook N which she says is mai alloy.

When I was in Thailand 10 weeks ago Big Ooi where selling at 45 baht/kilo, this was in Kampeng Phet. If the price has dropped due to abundance of wild fish in the floods then it may be prudent to hold off selling until the floods subsides.

The Latsia may be Ra-Sia and starting next month it will be the only catfish you can buy as the Big Ooi mommas stop laying eggs this month. I suspect you have Big Ooi and not the Ooi Na if you purchased your fry in NS. Nobody that I can find is able to grow the Ooi Na in NS. They buy them from either Anthong or Suphanburi. Apparently they are very difficult to grow and prone to disease. If you find out that in fact you have Ooi Na I would like to know where you bought them as I want to give them a try. The females sell for B250/kg!!

Regarding the B45 at KPP are you looking at the markets? If you want to sell your fish on the road in front of your house you may get B45 but I don't think anyone will pay you that to come get your fish. Those people at the market have to pay monthly rent for their space and that's why the price is high. They probably make about B10/kg and are buying their fish from wholesalers.

Your right on waiting. The price will go up maybe 7-10B when the weather starts getting colder. remember though, that if your fish get bigger than 3 per kg you may not be able to sell them.

Here's some more pics

Concrete pond used to raise fry to about 2 months before transfer to dirt pond. ~60 sq m

Dirt pond fish are transferred to. ~175 sq m

Our settling pond. All the ponds drain into this pond. The solids settle to the bottom and an overflow pipe at the surface drains low BOD water to the klong. We also use this pond for watering the garden and fishing while having a cold Chang.

rgds

[aqua]

Aprroximately 11 weeks ago my wife and I had two concrete tanks constructed in the back garden of our home in Nakhon Sawan province

Nice little set up CB

What's your current FPK? (fish per kg) That will help to determine potential markets and prices

[Chris.B]

Thanks for the photos Somtham. You seem to have some operation there!

I am now totally confused now what fish we have. Yes, the 45baht /kilo was the price selling fish in the markets.

I like your last pond, i.e. for fishing and drinking beer chang.

Aqua.... not sure yet what the fish/kilo rate is. Wife is saying 5 but I am not sure. Will find out soon.

Edited October 17, 2006 by Chris.B

[Tim207]

-->

QUOTE(Chris.B @ 2006-10-18 04:25:09) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aqua.... not sure yet what the fish/kilo rate is. Wife is saying 5 but I am not sure. Will find out soon.

I have some experience with fish farming (not catfish) and this sounds like something I might want to do as a hobby in the future. I would be interested to know what size the fingerlings were when you got them. There is a large size range that refers to fingerlings and the early growth is fairly slow. Before someone jumps on me I am referring too weight gain. It takes a lot longer to put 1 ounce on a 2 ounce fish compared to a 4 ounce fish.

I am trying to figure your growth rate and get an idea of your conversion rate. With the high cost of food and low sale price the conversion rate will be key. 1.2 would be about the best I think you could do all factors being ideal, I expect the actual rate will be much higher. This means that for every 1.2 killos of food you put in you get 1 killo of gained fish weight. At 20 baht per kilo for food you are paying 24 baht per kilo of fish weight gain. Bump that up to a more reasonable 1.8 you are paying 36 baht per kilo gain. If you have no experience or have not done a lot of reading your ratio could be much higher. If you are doing this for fun great but if you are counting on profits I think you will be dissapointed considering the numbers I have seen here.

For comparison, you are paying approximately the same for food as you would pay in the US. The problem is that where you are looking at a RETAIL sales price for the fish of 45 baht, here the WHOLESALE sale price is around 190 baht. Yes, different fish, different sales market, but that doesn't matter. The point is your feed inputs are the same cost with a far tighter margin. You need to maximize conversion (as anybody does) and lower feed costs. There has to be a cheaper food supplier, especially if you buy in bulk.

[Nawtilus]

Anyone ever looked at the fish famrs and how much they sell for...just interested as returning from Pattaya many times have seen the larger ponds on each side of the highway as you get closer to Bangkok.

Talking about the large earth ponds like in the last photo, only several times bigger.

Would love to know what a property like this sells for out of interest.

[Somtham]

-->

QUOTE(Chris.B @ 2006-10-18 04:25:09) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the photos Somtham. You seem to have some operation there!

I am now totally confused now what fish we have. Yes, the 45baht /kilo was the price selling fish in the markets.

I like your last pond, i.e. for fishing and drinking beer chang.

Aqua.... not sure yet what the fish/kilo rate is. Wife is saying 5 but I am not sure. Will find out soon.

Thanks Chris. One of the large NS farmers came by earlier this week to sell me some of his fish due to the flooding. anyway we were talking prices and he says the retailers at the market get B10/kg, the wholsalers get B5/kg so you can expect to get somewhere around B15 less than the price you see at the markets. This sounds right as we harvested 2000kg from one pond this week at B31 and 2500kg from 2 others at B29.

Tim has hit the nail on the head. It all comes down to feed costs. I think the people that make the money in this business are the feed manufacturers and maybe the wholesalers. Certainly not the farmers. I use a FCR of 1.5 but honestly don't keep good enough records of how much feed goes into each pond. I track total feed costs and fish sales and am now cash flow positive with maybe a very small profit. FYI we planted our first fish at the end of February.

B395 per bag is very high. I buy feed #2, 30% protein, at just under B18/kg and around 300+ bags per month. When the rains stop I will give a go at making our own feed. I figure the cost will drop to somewhere around B12/kg for material only.

rgds

[teletiger]

Somtham, is that 300+bags per month, or kilos per month? If bags, what is the weight per bag?

Regards

[Somtham]

Somtham, is that 300+bags per month, or kilos per month? If bags, what is the weight per bag?

Regards

It is 300 bags at 20kg per bag or 6000kg per month

[Tim207]

B395 per bag is very high. I buy feed #2, 30% protein, at just under B18/kg and around 300+ bags per month. When the rains stop I will give a go at making our own feed. I figure the cost will drop to somewhere around B12/kg for material only.

rgds

I did a search for catfish growth rates the other day and came across a study that might interest you. A hatchery in Kenya, I believe, increased growth rates dramatically by adding fats to their food mix. While not the best additive, palm oil was a very beneficial additive. I think they were getting conversion ratios approaching 1.2. They also gave their feed formulas for the experiment. It struck me as I read that palm oil could be a cheap additive in Thailand. If you can't find the study let me know and I will try to recreate the search I found it with. (I think it was something simple like "catfish growth rate" but I may have added more parameters.

[teletiger]

Somtham, is that 300+bags per month, or kilos per month? If bags, what is the weight per bag?

Regards

It is 300 bags at 20kg per bag or 6000kg per month

So you need to produce 4000 kilos of fish per month to break even?

Regards

[Nawtilus]

Thats a lot of fish a month.

What exactly is fish feed made up of ?? can you make/grow your own from what ??

[Somtham]

So you need to produce 4000 kilos of fish per month to break even?

Regards

Not really. What it means is that if I pump 6000kg of feed into the ponds each month I will get a total increase in fish mass of 4000kg. If my only expense was fish food then to break even I would need to sell fish at B18/kg of feed x FCR of 1.5 or B27/kg.

[Somtham]

I did a search for catfish growth rates the other day and came across a study that might interest you. A hatchery in Kenya, I believe, increased growth rates dramatically by adding fats to their food mix. While not the best additive, palm oil was a very beneficial additive. I think they were getting conversion ratios approaching 1.2. They also gave their feed formulas for the experiment. It struck me as I read that palm oil could be a cheap additive in Thailand. If you can't find the study let me know and I will try to recreate the search I found it with. (I think it was something simple like "catfish growth rate" but I may have added more parameters.

Thanks Tim. I searched multiple parameters today on Google and could not find the article. Although I did see several articles on using catfish fat as a biofuel!! If you have the time I would appreciate a link.

rgds

[Somtham]

Thats a lot of fish a month.

What exactly is fish feed made up of ?? can you make/grow your own from what ??

Actually, about 6 weeks ago we were pumping 20 bags a day into the ponds. At B7K per day I was getting a bit nervous so discussed it with the wife and we cut the feeding regimen from twice a day back to once a day. B3.5K/day was certainly more palatable for a newbie!

Just before the rains came this year I dabbled with making the food as it became very apparent early on that if we wanted to make money at this we would need to make our own food. I got a recipe from FAO which I tried and although it wouldn't float the fish were eating it. It was made from:

Soybeans: 45%

Broken rice ( khao plai): 24%

Fish meal: 15%

Rice bran (lam khao): 10%

Leucaena meal (ga tin): 3%

Bone meal: 1%

and Vitamen/minerals mix (which I ignored): 2%

Next round I will replace 5% of the broken rice with mun sapalang as act as a binder.

rgs

[Tim207]

Thanks Tim. I searched multiple parameters today on Google and could not find the article. Although I did see several articles on using catfish fat as a biofuel!! If you have the time I would appreciate a link.

rgds

The search was,

conversion ratio catfish "growth rate"

There were several interesting pages you might find helpful that came up.On the second page was this link to the study.

http://www.bioline.org.br/request?ja02024

At the bottom of the page are links to images. The images are scans of their various data, including growth rate tables and food mixture composition.

[Maizefarmer]

Going to add my bit here..............

Fish farming has great potential in thailand if you get it right.

As a protien food source when compared to other protien food sources fish farming is very efficient i.e. the conversion rate from feed to protien in the case of red meat (i.e. cattle, shep, goats ect...) is horribly inefficent at around something silly in the region of 10 - 20%.

In the case of chicken it is better, but not as good as fish.

Warm fresh water fish offer conversion rates of up to 70 - 75% - amnogst the highest efciencies that can be achieved from farming "live animals".

Get it right and you can earn a lot of money from it in Thailand.

Tim.

[Somtham]

The search was,

conversion ratio catfish "growth rate"

There were several interesting pages you might find helpful that came up.On the second page was this link to the study.

http://www.bioline.org.br/request?ja02024

At the bottom of the page are links to images. The images are scans of their various data, including growth rate tables and food mixture composition.

Thank you. The highest growth rates and lowest FCRs were with lipids derived from soy beans while the palm oil lipids weren't much better than the control group. Seems palm oil is about as good for fish as it is for people.

MF - any info you have that can leads us to "getting it right" would be much appreciated.

rgds

[Tim207]

Thank you. The highest growth rates and lowest FCRs were with lipids derived from soy beans while the palm oil lipids weren't much better than the control group. Seems palm oil is about as good for fish as it is for people.

Addmittedly palm oil was the lowest performing experimental additive but it still lowered the FCR by 20% and raised growth rates significantly. I know palm oil is a Thai product that you should be able to obtain easily. I am not sure how easy it would be to obtain Porklard or shea butter oil. The only thing that troubled me was the increased mortality.

[Maizefarmer]

The search was,

conversion ratio catfish "growth rate"

There were several interesting pages you might find helpful that came up.On the second page was this link to the study.

http://www.bioline.org.br/request?ja02024

At the bottom of the page are links to images. The images are scans of their various data, including growth rate tables and food mixture composition.

Thank you. The highest growth rates and lowest FCRs were with lipids derived from soy beans while the palm oil lipids weren't much better than the control group. Seems palm oil is about as good for fish as it is for people.

MF - any info you have that can leads us to "getting it right" would be much appreciated.

rgds

SOMTHAM

When I joined this forum I learn,t (quickly) you get shouted down if you comment on a subject you dont know about - and quite honestly, all I know about fish is how to pick the flesh off the bones once it on my plate.

I know nothing about the fish farming business except that like most farming in Thailand the word "subsitance" is often used, and what you want to do is replace that word "subsistance"with "business"

When adopting a farming practise or farming idea one of the first things you want to do is to take a close look at it and ask yourself - is this subsitance farming or is this making money - enough for me to make a business out of it (especially so in the case us farangs who in 99% of cases, were it not for a realtionship with a member of the fairer sex, would not be doing it).

I know a lot of people do not like to hear that - but if we are to be honest with ourselves, its often the case and thats where the problem comes in: - its often right from the start the motives and methodolgy let down an otherwise potentialy very good agrcicultural project,

This really is a subject for another thread but keep that in the back of your mind.

That was very much an across the board statement and nothing to do with the subject of Makua or fish farming any more or less than it applies to any other type of farming.

But I do know about one problem that is associated with fish farming in Thailand and that is oxygenation of water: warm water does not hold 02 as well as cool water and many fish farms in Thailand suffer low/poor fish growth rates and final yields because an attempt is made to reduce costs by not spending money on oxgenating the water. In the final anlysis, its often a counter productive cost saving effort i.e. the farmer would have earned more had he spent more on ensuring the water had sufficient oxygen.

Tim

Edited October 20, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[Somtham]

SOMTHAM

When I joined this forum I learn,t (quickly) you get shouted down if you comment on a subject you dont know about - and quite honestly, all I know about fish is how to pick the flesh off the bones once it on my plate.

Ha, prior to 9 months ago my fish farming experience consisted of a backpacking trip to the Sierras 25 years ago when I slaughtered a couple of dozen golden trout!!

I know nothing about the fish farming business except that like most farming in Thailand the word "subsitance" is often used, and what you want to do is replace that word "subsistance"with "business"

With 200K+ fish it's definately a business with financial gain as the goal.

But I do know about one problem that is associated with fish farming in Thailand and that is oxygenation of water: warm water does not hold 02 as well as cool water and many fish farms in Thailand suffer low/poor fish growth rates and final yields because an attempt is made to reduce costs by not spending money on oxgenating the water. In the final anlysis, its often a counter productive cost saving effort i.e. the farmer would have earned more had he spent more on ensuring the water had sufficient oxygen.

Our original intentions were to farm fresh water prawns but decided to cut capital costs and go through the learning curve with catfish as they are more tolerant to our mistakes. Rather than use aeration if the O2 drops to low I replace water....sometimes quite frequently.

Thanks for the advice. See you on makuas!

[Maizefarmer]

Interesting you say that - my inclination was towards fresh water prawns as I felt that the margin both financialy and for error were greater for prawns than with fish, but yes, catfish certainly can take a beating as far as the conditiions in which they are kept go.

How do they rank financially from an income point of view alongside other freshwater farmed fish in Thailand - do they offer a greater return for less imput?

Tim

[Somtham]

Interesting you say that - my inclination was towards fresh water prawns as I felt that the margin both financialy and for error were greater for prawns than with fish, but yes, catfish certainly can take a beating as far as the conditiions in which they are kept go.

How do they rank financially from an income point of view alongside other freshwater farmed fish in Thailand - do they offer a greater return for less imput?

Tim

Fish farming is new to us and we're learning as we go. There are several reasons I backed of on the prawns.

1. The minimum DO (dissolved oxygen) levels required for catfish is around 2 mg/l and for Macrobrachium around 6 which means definate aeration for the prawns and more capital to install it.

2. We moved here from Malaysia and live prawns there were selling for around B350/kg. Here you can buy them regularly for B280. A let down :-(

3. Feed for prawns is about twice the cost per kilo as catfish feed and a good FCR for prawns is 1.7, less than catfish which the other Tim pointed out as capable of 1.2.

4. A typical stocking desnity for prawns would be ~20-25/m^2 with aeration and netting compared to the Thai Fisheries Dept number of 40-125 for catfish.

5. Grow out to a marketable size animal is around 6 months for prawns and 3-4 months for catfish.

I haven't run all the numbers for both species through Excel so I cannot give you a definative answer on the financials but for above reasons we decided to start with the CF. I love a fresh bbq'd prawn and I have one pond earmarked for prawns that we'll plant next Spring. these puppies will be strictly for the bar-b and not for sale.

rgds

[Pond Life]

Somtam

Do you have any leads for buying macrobrachium juveniles in the north ?

I have a hankering for a BBQ to, but havnt managed to track down young ones in the Chiang Mai area.

Ta

[Maizefarmer]

SOMTAM - r u sure about those stocking density figures quoted? I had in my mind (note - in my mind) that the stocking densities for prawn would be considerably higher.

But that aside, if your other figures are accurate, well then its a "no brainer".

Tim

[Somtham]

SOMTAM - r u sure about those stocking density figures quoted? I had in my mind (note - in my mind) that the stocking densities for prawn would be considerably higher.

But that aside, if your other figures are accurate, well then its a "no brainer".

Tim

MF - 99.9% sure on the numbers. Our last 6 months in Malaysia the wife and I spent working wekends on a fresh water prawn farm, visiting hatcheries, talking with dept of Fisheries folks, and I read a stack of books a meter high (mostlyFAO).

"Do you have any leads for buying macrobrachium juveniles in the north ?"

Pondlife - last year I was given 2000 juveniles, ~PL15, from the Dept of Fisheries in Tak. They sell them for B0.15 each. For some reason the Dept head just gave them to us. Unfortunately, that guy has been transferred down south, I think Narathiwat, and the new folks are not to responsive, at least over the phone. They have a large hatchery operation with the main purpose of stocking PL in the rivers. They also sell PL to the public by the millions.

rgds