Learn to read Thai in six days (workshop: Dec 14-19, Chiang Mai)

[Richard W]

As long as 100% thais pronounce go gai as a clear G and understand go gai as a G sound perfectly i will stick to the sound that is understood by thai instead of confusing them by trying to be fancy and using K for a G sounding letter thus having them guess what the hell im trying to mean because im mispronouncing every single word with go gai.

I'm having trouble unravelling the sarcasm here. I think Johpa got confused earlier.

All I'm saying is that a funny farang accent which mispronounces Thai /k/ as [ɡ] (or better, [ɡ̊]) is easier for a Thai to understand than one that mispronounces it as [kʰ]. For many, the goal is communication, not to pass oneself off as Thai. That reduces the struggle to recognising and pronouncing recognisable /p/ and /t/. (จ v. ช is the same as ก v. ค, except that perfectionists will note that the hushing isn't quite the same as in English.) I can remember my girlfriend (now my wife) explaining that one shouldn't expect farangs to manage to say /p/ properly. I was rather horrified when I realised that Fundamentals of the Thai Language did not distinguish /p/ and /pʰ/. I didn't notice for a long time, for I was using the transliterations to resolve ambiguities in the Thai spelling.

I wonder if the course covers words like บัณฑิต [M]ban[L]dit. What sort of ladyboy is tho nang montho? It could spend a lot of a time on words like สัตวแพทย์ [L]sat[L]ta[H]wa[F]paet - Thais seem to have problems with some of these words! Reading out sentences is going to be tricky without a moderate vocabulary.

[bearpolar]

Not saying this as an attack but i just saw this quote from you on thai-language

"So many of us, including myself, find it difficult to distinguish between the initial ป and บ sounds and between the initial ต and ด sounds."

Having seen that i think you have a hearing problem or have not been exposed to enough languages to be able to prononce english letters in different ways than your learned accent.

Those letters are very very very easy to distinguish when a thai speaks.

Your grammar knowledge seems off-the-chart but every post you have on the site about transliteration is off imo, you have been trying to change go gai to the letter K since 2003 or even before from what i have seen and people still dont agree

I see a lot of other controversial post from you about จ, ฉ , ซ and ศ that make no sense to my hear or anyone else's ive sent the links to including thais who are completely fluent in english

[DavidHouston]

Mr. Bearpolar,

I believe that quote from 2003 was mine, not Richard's. I'm very happy that your hearing is acute enough to distinguish the differences in all Thai sounds. Alas, my hearing remains defective. I have learned never to comment on transcription rules.

[Richard W]

To be fair the ad for this does not claim just how many words you will be able to read, about 12 I would think

I'm pretty sure it covers well over half the commonest 5,000 words. I couldn't see whether it enables one to read sentences, or tonal booby traps like ตำรวจ​ but สำเนียง.

This looks great how often do you do the seminars...30k bht for a 6 day intensive wowwow does it come with an ed visa?

I'm pretty sure you can do it on visa waiver or any tourist visa. The Thais do not regard study as incompatible with tourism. You don't need a long-stay visa. Hint: This course is for those who want to learn.

[bearpolar]

I forgot to point out that i have very bad hearing and im almost tone deaf. I don't know if my ability comes from listening to a lot of thais or from my native language

Like this is senseless to me. ตา is obviously dTaa. There is a massive difference between taa and dtaa

Once again a thai will not understand me if i say taa instead of dtaa. My gf makes sure to make my life hell if i dont prononce a word the exact way it has to be. I dont know if shes doing it because she really cant understand or just to piss me off but the end result is that i know for a fact that theres a massive difference between all those letters.

I think these phonetic thai kings are simply bored old men trying to pass their own senseless agenda onto everyone to feel in power as they are going against all thais fluent in english that are writting books, and the rest of the country as well.

55million against a couple guys. Just like in french. Plural of cheval was cheveau for years.. People kept saying chevals. well after a while the elitist that handle the dictionaries finaly caved in and followed the people, the people are the language.

[Richard W]

As long as 100% thais pronounce go gai as a clear G and understand go gai as a G sound perfectly i will stick to the sound that is understood by thai instead of confusing them by trying to be fancy and using K for a G sounding letter thus having them guess what the hell im trying to mean because im mispronouncing every single word with go gai.

It's a few of you vs 55millions others.

I'm disappointed to see you weren't actually being sarcastic.

The IPA phonetic notation for what you identify as Thai 'G' is [k] and the phonetic notation for 'K' is [kʰ]. For the corresponding phonemic notation, common practice is to simplify the symbols, so we may have /k/ and /kʰ/ or /k/ and /kh/, chosen in accordance with taste and typographic limitations. Note that these symbols denote sounds that by default lack any voicing. Now Pattani Malay has a 3-way contrast, [ɡ] v. [k] v. [kʰ]. The Royal Institute's คู่มือระบบเขียนภาษามลายูปาตานี อักษรไทย Handbook for Writing Pattani Malay in the Thai Script describes the contrast using those symbols and prescribes that the sounds be distinguished in normal writing as <กฺ> v. <ก> v. <ค>. Note that plain <ก> corresponds to [k], not [g]. Like Thai, Pattani Malay has the 3-way contrast [d] v. [t] v. [tʰ] (described that way), and the handbook prescribes that they be distinguished in normal writing as <ด> v. <ต> v. <ค>, just as in Thai. You presumably think of these sounds as 'D' v. 'DT' v. 'T'. It is a shame that you can't perceive that your Thai G v. K contrast corresponds to the 'DT' v. 'T' contrast, rather than the 'D' v. 'T' contrast.

Is there any point in my trawling the Internet for some spectrograms to show you that phonetically syllable-initial Thai ก belongs with ต and ป rather than with ด and บ.

[Richard W]

<> denotes a citation of a writing system, e.g. words or letters in the wider sense.
// denotes a phoneme or a sequence of phonemes, i.e. sounds written in a way that needs knowledge of the language for the finer details.
[] denotes sounds - the precise sounds can be reasonably well approximated without knowing the language.

After a chart showing that ต and ฏ are pronounced /t/,

Like this is senseless to me. ตา is obviously dTaa. There is a massive difference between taa and dtaa

I don't hear any voicing in the onset of ตา. Clearly there is no /d/ there.

Many languages only have a difference of /d/ v. unaspirated /t/. When there writing systems are used to write the sound of Th​​ai​ ท, a common technique has been to write it as /t/ followed by /h/. This trick was used in the early adaptation of the Phoenician script for Greek, in Latin for Greek (before the aspirates became fricatives) and in the Arabic script for Punjabi. The same technique is used in the IPA to represent (url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant]aspiration[/url], but with the 'h' superscripted for preference, for /h/ can follow other consonants in some languages, e.g. Thai นกฮูก /nókhûːk/ 'owl'. This is not the same as hypothetical */nókʰûːk/, which would be written *โนะคูก. Some analyses would say this was impossible, for an omitted glottal stop should be written.)

This system has been unattractive when the writing system is being adapted from a languages with a word-initial contrast of [d] v. [tʰ]. For Thai, a popular system is to use <d> v. <dt> v. <t> for /d/ v. /t/ v. /tʰ/. For Chinese, <d> v. <t> is used to represent /t/ v. /tʰ/. Extending this to systems with the 3-way contrast can lead to <dd> v. <d> v. <t> and worse. IPA is a portable and public system for representing pronunciation, but some people prefer systems tied into a particular language. If the language has an almost faithful writing system, one naturally hears calls to use it, e.g. 'The proper Thai-specific symbol to represent the sound of ต is ต itself".


So, if we were to translate what BearPolar said to an IPA-based scheme, we would have something like,

This chart uses 't' for the pronunciation of ต and ฏ. Like this is senseless to me. ตา is obviously taa. There is a massive difference between thaa and taa

This would be nonsense. BearPolar should understand that the people he objects to are using a different system to the one he likes. They may well be using IPA because they want to be understood by people who work with multiple languages.

[thaiduncankk]

I think I will stick with my English and pidgin Thai.

[bearpolar]

You may use any system you like but if you are not sounding a small d when pronouncing do dtao then you are speaking improperly unless your roman T is spoken with an accent that puts a D in front. That would make all your thai consonant similar to to tung wrong though unless you again switched those letters to an other letter than T

Seeing as you have a hard time hearing difference between many of these sounds from thais then wouldnt it make sense that you are going about it all wrong with the IPA and conditioning your hearing wrongly by reading/pronouncing words inccorectly because of it?

[ravip]

"By the end of the week you will be able to recognize just about any Thai word and sound it out accurately with the correct tone. "

Would this apply to any language on this planet?

I see many language schools closing down in the near future!

[Richard W]

You may use any system you like but if you are not sounding a small d when pronouncing do dtao then you are speaking improperly unless your roman T is spoken with an accent that puts a D in front. That would make all your thai consonant similar to to tung wrong though unless you again switched those letters to an other letter than T

What, prithee, is a 'roman T'? Do you mean the sound Cicero uttered for a <T>? The evidence suggests that word-initially, his <T> was pronounced the same as Thai to tao, his <D> the same as do dek, and his <TH> the same as tho thahan.

Word-initially, my English <t> seems to match tho thahan, though it properly needs longer aspiration for Thai. If I used the sound of my English word-initial <t> in to tao, it would be wrong.

Seeing as you have a hard time hearing difference between many of these sounds from thais then wouldnt it make sense that you are going about it all wrong with the IPA and conditioning your hearing wrongly by reading/pronouncing words inccorectly because of it?

The problem I have on hearing is the natural tendency to hear word-initial [t] as /d/ or /t/; remember that voiceless [d̥] falls within the ranɡe of variation of English /d/. I have to hear it clearly enough to register it as a strange sound. On production, I learnt to make [t] by chopping off the aspiration of English /t/, and sometimes I failed to chop it off. I don't know how good my production is now; my hearing may suggest that it actually came out as /d/, because I've switched voicing on too soon.

Incidentally, what is your native language?

[konying]

I want someone to teach me how to write.

I learned how to read, not well but can.

When i attended a very prestigious language school which guarantees results and asked to be taught how to write, i was told just to copy what i see.

Problem is i can not draw, i really am terrible. When i try to copy, my drawings do not even resemble what Thai looks like.

I am certain, there has to be a way, where one learns how to write Thai

[Richard W]

I see a lot of other controversial post from you about จ, ฉ , ซ and ศ that make no sense to my hear or anyone else's ive sent the links to including thais who are completely fluent in english

What controversial posts do you have in mind? If they're on Thai-language.com, make a response there. Cross-forum links, except within Thaivisa, are prohibited.

[Richard W]

Problem is i can not draw, i really am terrible. When i try to copy, my drawings do not even resemble what Thai looks like.

Have you tried the children's exercise books which allow you to trace the letters on dotted lines? The ones I can remember had a picture of a cock on the front. The usual rule is to start at the little circle at the end of a line. You only lift the pen for the clearly disconnected pieces in ฐ​​ tho than and ญ yo ying.

I can't draw either, while my wife can, but she often gets me to write the addresses in Thai for letters and parcels to Thailand!

[AyG]

I want someone to teach me how to write.

I learned how to read, not well but can.

When i attended a very prestigious language school which guarantees results and asked to be taught how to write, i was told just to copy what i see.

Problem is i can not draw, i really am terrible. When i try to copy, my drawings do not even resemble what Thai looks like.

I am certain, there has to be a way, where one learns how to write Thai

I'd suggest you get the J. Marvin Brown writing book. It starts with an angular style of writing which is easier to master than the more rounded form which you can develop later once you've mastered the proportions of the characters. The accompanying reading book is also well worth buying. It's the only English language book I know of which deals with the challenges of reading handwritten Thai.

Here's an Amazon link to the book, but you can also buy it in Thailand.

http://www.amazon.com/A-U-A-Language-Center-Thai-Course/dp/0877275122

I personally didn't learn to write using this book, but used specially ruled notebooks (made for Thai children) that help you get the vertical proportions of the letters correct and consistent. It does force you to write quite large, but at the early stages that isn't a drawback in my opinion.

[Richard W]

You only lift the pen for the clearly disconnected pieces in ฐ​​ tho than and ญ yo ying.

Correction: You also lift the pen for the strokes that distinguish ศ so sala from ค kho khwai and ษ so ruesi from บ bo bai mai. It's possible to write ส so suea by adding a stroke to ล lo ling, but it's normally added as a loop or by going back over upper portion.

[konying]

I want someone to teach me how to write.

I learned how to read, not well but can.

When i attended a very prestigious language school which guarantees results and asked to be taught how to write, i was told just to copy what i see.

Problem is i can not draw, i really am terrible. When i try to copy, my drawings do not even resemble what Thai looks like.

I am certain, there has to be a way, where one learns how to write Thai

I'd suggest you get the J. Marvin Brown writing book. It starts with an angular style of writing which is easier to master than the more rounded form which you can develop later once you've mastered the proportions of the characters. The accompanying reading book is also well worth buying. It's the only English language book I know of which deals with the challenges of reading handwritten Thai.

Here's an Amazon link to the book, but you can also buy it in Thailand.

http://www.amazon.com/A-U-A-Language-Center-Thai-Course/dp/0877275122

I personally didn't learn to write using this book, but used specially ruled notebooks (made for Thai children) that help you get the vertical proportions of the letters correct and consistent. It does force you to write quite large, but at the early stages that isn't a drawback in my opinion.

Thank you and also RichardW thank you, will look into both, as this one thing that really drives me crazy, not being able to write and my ก after me trying to copy it looks like a face with a huge nose

[naboo]

All the problems with transliteration come down to accent. ก sounds nothing like the g in the way an American would say "go" but exactly the way a middle Englander would pronounce the g in "go".

Think of the difference between how Northern and Southern Englishmen pronunce "bath" (as in the tub you clean yourself in, not the misspelt Thai money). A southerner pronouncing บาท with that vowel would say "bart" whereas a northerner would get it correct (well, maybe not the vowel length).

I recommend people learn to read Thai to get the sounds clear, but the transliteration is entirely dependent on the person's accent, and none of us here will have the same accent so this discussion of g vs k for chicken is pointless. Its ก.

[Richard W]

All the problems with transliteration come down to accent. ก sounds nothing like the g in the way an American would say "go" but exactly the way a middle Englander would pronounce the g in "go".

Which American? Which 'Middle Englander'? You appear to be suggesting that my English /b/ and /d/ are the same as Tai /p/ (i.e. ป) and /t/ (i.e. ต).

Think of the difference between how Northern and Southern Englishmen pronunce "bath" (as in the tub you clean yourself in, not the misspelt Thai money). A southerner pronouncing บาท with that vowel would say "bart" whereas a northerner would get it correct (well, maybe not the vowel length).

Amusingly for your comment, Se-Ed's Modern English-Thai Dictionary gives the pronunciation of English bath as บาธ. (He uses ธ for English /θ/.)

More seriously, southerners' /ɑː/ overlaps Thai /a:/ (i.e. อา). While the English northerners' vowel in "bath" may overlap Thai /a:/ in quality, I'm not at all convinced that it overlaps Thai /a/ (i.e. อั).

I recommend people learn to read Thai to get the sounds clear, but the transliteration is entirely dependent on the person's accent, and none of us here will have the same accent so this discussion of g vs k for chicken is pointless. Its ก.

An aim of IPA is that a phonetic transcription should not depend on the listener's accent. Now, while there can be a problem if a system is defined so that 'g' represents the hard sound of <g> in the author's English, there ought not to be this problem if the IPA is used in a phonetic rôle. When the IPA is used in a phonemic rôle, it ought to be accompanied by a description of the specific sounds of the phoneme. Sometimes, however, a statement expressed phonemically might be intended to apply to all Thai accents, and so such a description can be represented by reference to Thai spelling, which is sufficiently regular for this purpose.

So far as I am aware, there is no justification for a system of Thai transcription purporting to use IPA to use /ɡ/ for the syllable-initial sound represented in Thai by ก. However, Mary Haas's scheme of using the voiced consonant symbols for final consonants is justified by the refusal to associate the final consonants with any of the initial consonants. Challenges should be directed to that refusal.