What qualifies as an experienced rider?

[papa al]

Very "clever" of you to find that which has nothing to do with the topic !

We are discussing Road Riding NOT rock hopping !

The Topic Title - What qualifies as an experienced rider?

The guy in the vid = not experienced! got it.

[MyFriend You]

Someone that knows how to fall, get back up and ride away.........a controlled crash is a beautiful thing. always have the correct safety gear, and be aware of your surroundings. SE Asia, yiou have to ride defensively, like everyone else is wanting to run you off the road.

[CarolJadzia]

It has been said that the difference between a Expert and a Novice is the expert has tried and failed more times than the novice has tried.

Pushing a motorcycle to the limit can be dangerous, but you don't know where the limit is till you go to it. I have found the limit many times, as I have got older I do not tend to push it as much as I used to. Don't bounce so well these days.

There has been lots of research done into what differs Experts from Novices, heres one paper than sums some of it up - http://www.nap.edu/read/9853/chapter/5

If you want to know more then there is much on how human perception and learning effects riding on the No Surprise resources page nosurprise.org.uk/research-papers-and-resources-library

[BBJ]

BBJ

Try your fancy riding technique in Australia and it will not be long before you lose the license and get hit with convictions and large fines !

Standing on pegs means you are not in full control of the bike, cannot change gear or effectively operate the brakes !

You are, in fact , a disaster waiting to occur.

Lets hope no one else is killed/injured .

Wise words from an inexperienced rider, I presume!

[BBJ]

A great reason for standing on the pegs. On a recent trip I came across a road covered in potholes. Standing on the pegs not only takes the jolt away from your body and prevents possible injury, it also allows you to see well ahead of the road for more obstacles taking away unnecessary impacts from the bike that could possibly damage it.

Additionally, the chances are someone in a panic who is seated, would hit the brakes, throwing them over the bike if they hit one of these hole. Standing, you could, if you wanted to, blast over these holes while standing and you would not fall off.

You could of course (lord hope you're not night riding) slow to snail pace assuming you have noticed the holes and weave your way around, hoping in the meantime that the pickup behind doesn't take you out because they can't wait for you!

Let's just say having various skills on a bike is beneficial.

These potholes went on for about 5km

And before anyone says "why didn't you keep to the right" Before the image there were potholes on both side. Standing allow me to plot the best route for me and the bike.

Edited December 9, 2015 by BBJ

[Ace of Pop]

Seems EGO rules here.Safe riders don't say much .

[BBJ]

^Thought safe riders pass their experience on. Are you saying your lack of words speaks volumes of your experience.

Anyway, new riders can at least take various points and use them.

[papa al]

nice try, but,

i have to reject your well reasoned argument

as it contradicts my dogma.

[fang37]

One who can carry 3 passengers whilst combing his hair thru the rear-vision mirror.

[papa al]

A great reason for standing on the pegs. On a recent trip I came across a road covered in potholes. Standing on the pegs not only takes the jolt away from your body and prevents possible injury, it also allows you to see well ahead of the road for more obstacles taking away unnecessary impacts from the bike that could possibly damage it.

Additionally, the chances are someone in a panic who is seated, would hit the brakes, throwing them over the bike if they hit one of these hole. Standing, you could, if you wanted to, blast over these holes while standing and you would not fall off.

You could of course (lord hope you're not night riding) slow to snail pace assuming you have noticed the holes and weave your way around, hoping in the meantime that the pickup behind doesn't take you out because they can't wait for you!

Let's just say having various skills on a bike is beneficial.

These potholes went on for about 5km

pothole hell.jpg

And before anyone says "why didn't you keep to the right" Before the image there were potholes on both side. Standing allow me to plot the best route for me and the bike.

Ya, keep you speed up and jump the holes...

Works better with lighter bikes.

[BuriramDevelopers]

After 100k Km's on thai roads (big and small bike). Yes i know my bikes and how they handle , very well.

I know theThai very well and the state of the roads.

Am i experienced. i'd like to think so, but many times feel i'm not.

I know my bike ,is still able to perform on a level, i can not. Extreme that is. I am not Rossi.

So always have to be carefull to not let myself be outperformed by my bike.

I still take great care in turns etc as if it was my first month on a bike. just because of the road conditions and their constant change due to traffic and wheater.

Not because i drive bad, but road conditions change so much that my experience will help me sure, but so many factors are changing constantly that you can never feel relaxed and totally comfortable.

This is Road driving not a cirquit..

I think only 1 % is experienced to the level they can push their bike to the absolute limit and feel comfprtable with it. That's totally experienced.

The rest has to have a deep respect for their machine

Happy driving

[CarolJadzia]

Stand up - sit down!

All comes down to the style of bike you are riding and your riding style.

Some bikes do not have proper seats and are designed to be ridden standing up.

Hearing all this talk of standing up makes me remember the 80's and Junior Kickstart on the Telly.

[BBJ]

^brings back some memories along with the game I had on Atari I think. But that annoying music is going to be in my head for days now!

[jing jing]

What's the problem with standing up on footpegs? In certain situations it's done by reflex; for example, when absorbing the impact of potholes that are seen too late to be avoided. Other than that it would rarely be of any use in normal street riding situations, but hardly qualifies as a dangerous or reckless maneuver.

I'm an experienced rider by most anyone's standards, and can slice through tight city traffic as easily as drag a knee round a fast sweeper, but I believe the real key to survival on a bike is knowing when to dial it back. Bad things will happen when, for whatever reason, a rider continues to push the envelope beyond whatever his own margin of error may be.

The trick to minimizing risk is in maintaining the highest possible level of awareness and ANTICIPATING hazards before it's too late to avoid them. Thai driving customs are different from what most Westerners are used to, and we need to know that everything we would LEAST expect to happen is almost guaranteed to happen.

Yes, that huge debris-filled lorry WILL pull out directly in front you at the last second, and the faster you're going, the more likely it is.

[chrissables]

Surely an experienced rider is a person who has riding experience?

Every mile / km you ride adds to that experience. Every problem you deal with adds to your experience. It's a continually evolving process.

I have ridden a lot here and don't even think about it, just ride and enjoy. Building more experience as you go.

There are no short cuts to gaining experience. Personally i would not be interested in going on a course to learn to be better, but each to their own.

I just do things my way, and for sure many members here would ridicule me if the saw my safety kit, or extreme lack of. I am 8,000 + km into a bike trip at the moment, completed in shorts and sandals, a coat if it's cold and old waterproofs if raining. I trust in my experience to ride how the road allows. This on a Versys.

edit, i do where a helmet. Wear, in fact.

Edited December 9, 2015 by chrissables

[harrry]

An experenced rider is one who has survived to die of something other than an accident.

[papa al]

This has actually been raised as an issue in regard to testing standards or in fact the current way of obtaining a full licence anywhere in the world.

I spent many years doing Direct Access Test training, 5 days on average from total novice to full licence. People could and still can pass their tests without having ridden on a wet road. No motorway or night driving included either. Yet the driving test is where the standard is set. In all my years of training very few of the people who have come through the system have ever done any post test training, yet the full licence is classed as there qualification as an experienced rider.

I have friends who have been riding for years who will not ride in the rain, or some even take their motorcycles off the road for the winter months.

I have also worked with qualified Instructors who do not ride in cities as they find it too much.

Sounds like a brilliant program.

How i sign up?

Kidding.

Papa prefer laissez-faire Thai approach.

Sure some attrition but, Darwin, &c.

& reincarnation.

Don't worry.

[CarolJadzia]

There are no short cuts to gaining experience. Personally i would not be interested in going on a course to learn to be better, but each to their own.

There has always been a problem with the language used by 'advanced' riders in the UK. The suggestion that doing an advanced course makes you a 'better' rider.

About twenty years ago I decided that as We were offering advanced training I would do one of the major group assessments so contacted the Institute of Advanced Motorists about doing an Advanced Test with them. The guy on the phone insisted that as I was "only" a test Instructor I would need training in order to get to IAM standard. I respectfully told him what he could do with his training and just booked the test. I was followed for 50 miles by a Police Officer assessor who corrected me on one point - overtaking on Chevrons. Not that I had broken and laws, just as a member of the IAM I should be setting the example to others and someone following me "might not be so safe"!

People who have done the IAM or ROSPA advanced training often feel they are superior to others, it is a shame as they are still just as open to accidents as anyone else and sometimes the arrogance of the title puts them in more danger. An example of this is the expectation to 'make progress' when riding. They assume their higher skill level and advanced observations mean they can use their skills to constantly be 'making progress' past slower vehicles.

However our 'No Surprise' view says deciding if a decision to overtake was possibly wrong when you are already overtaking is probably a bit late. Lets look at if it's safe to overtake from the following position first. Rather than just trying to 'Make Progress'.

To suggest training makes someone better is wrong, what we are about is sharing skills so we all have the best ammunition to stay safe while riding.

[papa al]

So training doesn't make a better rider.

Ok.

[CarolJadzia]

So training doesn't make a better rider.

Ok.

Yes.

Training does not make you a better rider, your own actions and experience make you a better rider.

I can 'Train' people to pass a Test, but they have to pass it. I train people to conform to a set of test rules, that depends on the test.

Advanced defensive riding is not about right and wrong, it's about justifying your actions - "I was at position 'A' because it gave me a better view, but you were at position "B' because it was a better position to corner from" not right and wrong, just discussing various options. Working out what is best. Sharing ideas on how to stay alive.

After all if we get it wrong it can be game over very quickly.

[papa al]

Going out quick on a bike is not a terrible option for an old codger like papa.

[expatbrit]

Going out quick on a bike is not a terrible option for an old codger like papa.

As long as it is just you that "goes out" then OK

Do not kill or injure others.

[papa al]

Ran over a snake in Cambodia.

Feel bad about that.

Hopefully it had a good reincarnation.

[puukao]

race. the ONLY way to get better....

then get on a racing circuit......

if not, you will never ride properly

[eeeya]

pin it to win it..

everyone else is just a looser

[expatbrit]

race. the ONLY way to get better....

then get on a racing circuit......

if not, you will never ride properly

Racetrack skills are very different to those required to ride safely on the road.

In fact wannabe Valentino Rossi's are a menace to both themselves and others on the road.

[CarolJadzia]

Everyone has to learn to ride on the road, Including GP riders.

We can learn a lot from track racing, cornering skills and braking. However so much is not covered like observations or positioning to get the best view on blind corners.

Racetracks do not normally have trees or bus stops on the corners, or potholes, or drivers coming the other way.

I have raced fellow instructors who have told me how much better riders they are than me because they have done track days and obviously Police Roadcraft Skills are all about "Going safely and slowly".

They then have had to eat their words. As many who has tried to out-run a British Police Rider will verify.

Like I said above training does not make you a Better Rider, but if you are going to play a game it's better to play knowing all the cheats as well!

[expatbrit]

Everyone has to learn to ride on the road, Including GP riders.

DELETED

We can learn a lot from track racing, cornering skills and braking. However so much is not covered like observations or positioning to get the best view on blind corners.

Racetracks do not normally have trees or bus stops on the corners, or potholes, or drivers coming the other way.

I have raced fellow instructors who have told me how much better riders they are than me because they have done track days and obviously Police Roadcraft Skills are all about "Going safely and slowly".

They then have had to eat their words. As many who has tried to out-run a British Police Rider will verify.

Like I said above training does not make you a Better Rider, but if you are going to play a game it's better to play knowing all the cheats as well!

I have ridden with motorcycle Police riders from Australia, New Zealand , the USA and the UK.

The Wannabe "track " rider is no match for the ladies/gents who Police the roads on motor cycles. The wannabe "racers" are always apprehended but most "run out of road" before they are handcuffed.

Edited December 10, 2015 by seedy
utube in post above

[papa al]

...hence the desirability of off-road skills?

[BBJ]

...hence the desirability of off-road skills?

Exactly. Coppers have no chance of catching the UK chavs burning through the woods until they bring out the chopper-copper!