Father Leaving with Kids

[MaeJoMTB]

I'm still none the wiser. One says I need translated official letters and won't even get into the UK without it even though we are both citizens. He has yet to confirm if the child has his name and how old the child was. Hasn't replied to a PM which makes me think there were some unusual irregularities but who knows.

Where can I find out for sure? Immigration or amphur? Does anyone know the actual law? British airways say the child(13) could travel by herself. I am confused. I think I'll write a letter in Thai and English and get my wife to sign both and hope that will be more than enough. I'll also ask Immigration when I go to do my 90 day reporting. Maybe there is an national immigration number I can phone who could answer my questions?

The people you are asking have no information on the subject.

Thai immigration are interested in people entering the country.

But that won't stop them giving you random answers (each person you ask will make up some story).

This isn't a nanny state, they don't care who does what with whose children.

Unless there's money in it for them.

Same for the airlines .... Thai staff = don't care = random answers to questions.

[Apiwan2]

I'm still none the wiser. One says I need translated official letters and won't even get into the UK without it even though we are both citizens. He has yet to confirm if the child has his name and how old the child was. Hasn't replied to a PM which makes me think there were some unusual irregularities but who knows.

Where can I find out for sure? Immigration or amphur? Does anyone know the actual law? British airways say the child(13) could travel by herself. I am confused. I think I'll write a letter in Thai and English and get my wife to sign both and hope that will be more than enough. I'll also ask Immigration when I go to do my 90 day reporting. Maybe there is an national immigration number I can phone who could answer my questions?

Let us know when you find out please

[Forethat]

I'm still none the wiser. One says I need translated official letters and won't even get into the UK without it even though we are both citizens. He has yet to confirm if the child has his name and how old the child was. Hasn't replied to a PM which makes me think there were some unusual irregularities but who knows.

Where can I find out for sure? Immigration or amphur? Does anyone know the actual law? British airways say the child(13) could travel by herself. I am confused. I think I'll write a letter in Thai and English and get my wife to sign both and hope that will be more than enough. I'll also ask Immigration when I go to do my 90 day reporting. Maybe there is an national immigration number I can phone who could answer my questions?

I wrote the following in another thread (can be found here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/800455-mother-of-children-leaving/page-2?hl=hague ):

Different surnames appears to be the triggering factor for being asked to provide documentation when you attempt to depart a country with young children as a single parent.

After 3,5 years of doing exactly this I believe I've gathered enough statistical evidence to form a qualified opinion, and here it is:

If you travel with young children who doesn't have your surname you WILL be asked to show the correct documentation when you leave Thailand. Furthermore, when you enter UK you WILL be asked to show the correct documentation again. In fact, I have NEVER left Thailand or entered UK without having to do this. Not once. Fact.

If you travel to or from a country who has signed the Hague Abduction Convention, you will need the birth certificate and an affidavit from the other parent confirming that the child may travel with that you, copies of the ID card or passport of the mother, and her contact details. Read more here:

http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=text.display&tid=21

Here's a list of participating countries:

http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conventions.status&cid=24

However, and this needs to be considered by anyone who for any reason ends up in a situation like OP: even if you manage to get her to sign documents at the amphur and leave Thailand with the child/children you will end up in a legal vacuum since documentation from a Thai amphur is more or less disqualified as evidence of single custody. This will, for instance, create a massive issue when you need to renew their passports as signatures from both parents are required.

Here is another thread on the topic with some interesting info:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/724114-how-to-stop-a-child-dissapearing-from-thailand/?p=7794741&hl=immigration

Interpreting and enforcing international laws and rules in combination with contradicting domestic laws is never easy. Understandably, a Thai immigration officer will struggle with this. Departing or entering a country with small children who don't have your family name(especially Thai children) is likely to raise a red flag. I solved this by always bringing the birth certificate as well as a signed affidavit and a copy of the missus passport.

[MaeJoMTB]

Interpreting and enforcing international laws and rules in combination with contradicting domestic laws is never easy. Understandably, a Thai immigration officer will struggle with this. Departing or entering a country with small children who don't have your family name(especially Thai children) is likely to raise a red flag. I solved this by always bringing the birth certificate as well as a signed affidavit and a copy of the missus passport.

But,

This thread isn't about that, you've hijacked it to suit your abnormal family situation.

Most men have children with their surname on the birth certificate.

And for those man, none of your nonsense is required.

[Forethat]

Sorry, I got the impression that the thread was about departing Thailand with children as a single father. If you do, you're likely having to prove your relationship with the child, especially when the child doesn't have the same family name as the father.

I am keen to learn about experiences from situations where a Thai national single mother departs Thailand with a child who doesn't have HER family name. But THAT is a different thread...

[kingalfred]

So if the Thai mother wanted to leave Thailand with a child alone would immigration contact the Non Thai father to check if it was"okay"?

[Forethat]

So if the Thai mother wanted to leave Thailand with a child alone would immigration contact the Non Thai father to check if it was"okay"?

If the procedures were enforced equally regardless of which parent departs you would think that was the case. But somehow, I don't think so...

[Deserted]

Ditto, to some degree airline policy has an effect, some are stricter than others.

Nothing to do with the airlines.

As in any country, you would not have any problems unless your wife has asked for a travel restrictions for the children (by court order, which will pop up on the immigration computer when they scan the children's passports).

Read the thread before you comment.

Many people, myself included were not asked to show anything. Flew to London with Thai Airways, no questions asked though had all documentation required, flew there with Singapore Airlines too, all documents required and they wanted to speak to the mother.

Not all airlines adhere to policy, some officials don't even know what they are. Any experienced flyer can tell you that.

You mean the AIRLINE wanted to talk to the mother??? I worked for and with airlines many years - no such policy. Airlines check for visa or permit to enter the destination point. That is their only concern. I flew with my kids alone, my wife flew with the kids alone, never ever any of us were asked about permission from the other parent. According to a post above, you need a specific format of letter to prove you didn't abduct the child. So basically you need the same when you take the child to a movie or an ice cream.

Does any parent anywhere in the world needs to have such a letter when traveling with a child? How about a couple traveling together - do they need to carry the child's birth certificate to prove parenthood? Or to show a court order that they are the legal guardians of the children? Is it only required in Thailand? Is it only for foreigners traveling with their Thai children or also to Thai fathers traveling with children?

There are thousands of passengers going through immigration daily. They might ask some of those single parents if they suspect something, but not on a regular basis. If there is a dispute between the parents and 1 side thinks the other might take the children out of the country without permission, they would get a court order to restrict the child's travel - and that will pop up on the immigration computer.

Long ago I worked for a tour operator that organized overseas group tours for youngsters (students and teens). Part of my duty was to see them out at the airport. I remember one case that a young girl was not allowed out of the country as her parents were divorced and one of them has requested a travel restriction without telling the child or the other parent. It was an unpleasant surprise for the child, but she had to get her parents to sort it out and remove the court order before she could join the group

Singapore Airlines did yes. They wanted to confirm that she had signed the letter that I presented them with as she was at work at the time and not at the airport. They were actually quite good and I didn't mind as it only took a few seconds. It was Nok Air that were the real problem, they wanted the same documentation even though we weren't leaving the country.

[Apiwan2]

Ditto, to some degree airline policy has an effect, some are stricter than others.

Nothing to do with the airlines.

As in any country, you would not have any problems unless your wife has asked for a travel restrictions for the children (by court order, which will pop up on the immigration computer when they scan the children's passports).

Read the thread before you comment.

Many people, myself included were not asked to show anything. Flew to London with Thai Airways, no questions asked though had all documentation required, flew there with Singapore Airlines too, all documents required and they wanted to speak to the mother.

Not all airlines adhere to policy, some officials don't even know what they are. Any experienced flyer can tell you that.

You mean the AIRLINE wanted to talk to the mother??? I worked for and with airlines many years - no such policy. Airlines check for visa or permit to enter the destination point. That is their only concern. I flew with my kids alone, my wife flew with the kids alone, never ever any of us were asked about permission from the other parent. According to a post above, you need a specific format of letter to prove you didn't abduct the child. So basically you need the same when you take the child to a movie or an ice cream.

Does any parent anywhere in the world needs to have such a letter when traveling with a child? How about a couple traveling together - do they need to carry the child's birth certificate to prove parenthood? Or to show a court order that they are the legal guardians of the children? Is it only required in Thailand? Is it only for foreigners traveling with their Thai children or also to Thai fathers traveling with children?

There are thousands of passengers going through immigration daily. They might ask some of those single parents if they suspect something, but not on a regular basis. If there is a dispute between the parents and 1 side thinks the other might take the children out of the country without permission, they would get a court order to restrict the child's travel - and that will pop up on the immigration computer.

Long ago I worked for a tour operator that organized overseas group tours for youngsters (students and teens). Part of my duty was to see them out at the airport. I remember one case that a young girl was not allowed out of the country as her parents were divorced and one of them has requested a travel restriction without telling the child or the other parent. It was an unpleasant surprise for the child, but she had to get her parents to sort it out and remove the court order before she could join the group

Singapore Airlines did yes. They wanted to confirm that she had signed the letter that I presented them with as she was at work at the time and not at the airport. They were actually quite good and I didn't mind as it only took a few seconds. It was Nok Air that were the real problem, they wanted the same documentation even though we weren't leaving the country.

WHAT !.

On a domestic flight you need to prove your the father ?

Seems hard to believe .but you never know .

[Deserted]

I needed passports and letter of consent yes! I questioned the necessity of both, the compromise was that the mother would bring our child's passport. That settled it. But to answer your question yes. Have I flown with Nok air since? NO.

[Deserted]

Some staff are completely useless btw. Even my last flight from swampy was via Emirates. A guy questioned the validity of my visa because I had a different haircut!!!! I kid you not. He even had someone else come and check it, who then told him not to worry!!

[Apiwan2]

I am very interested in this thread.

Because I plan to move back to the UK soon.

What I don't get is. Is it the same if daddy takes kids on holiday to Spain from the UK

With the kids having the same surname , and the kids happy with daddy at say LHR or Gatwick ?

Or is this just prevalent in SE Asia ?

Edited December 30, 2015 by Apiwan2

[Deserted]

That I don't know. Suspect it is a SE Asia thing for reasons already mentioned in the thread.

[Chuckles78]

My wife has never asked about this when commuting between Thailand and Europe with my son on the many occasions. Perhaps it's different when the father travels with children?

[nontabury]

My wife has never asked about this when commuting between Thailand and Europe with my son on the many occasions. Perhaps it's different when the father travels with children?

If your wife is Farang the same as you, that would be expected, if on the other hand she is a Thai person traveling with mixed race children, who also have a Farang name she should be stopped and asked for proof that she has your permission to take the children out of Thailand. But as we all know the rules are not the same for everybody.

[Sawan Chan 7]

My wife has never asked about this when commuting between Thailand and Europe with my son on the many occasions. Perhaps it's different when the father travels with children?

If your wife is Farang the same as you, that would be expected, if on the other hand she is a Thai person traveling with mixed race children, who also have a Farang name she should be stopped and asked for proof that she has your permission to take the children out of Thailand. But as we all know the rules are not the same for everybody.

Why should she be stopped? There is no law that states this. When I go with my daughter, there is no law that says I need my wife's permission unless there is a court order to prevent me from doing so. This is my understanding after researching about this. if the officer has any reason to suspect something then he can ask so it may be wise to have a letter just in case.

Has anyone ever been refused from leaving the country with their children?

[Apiwan2]

This is the bit I don't get.

Why should it be any different for any parent not travelling without the other yet with children.

I'm sure immigration round the world do not ask or check.

but if and only if the surnames are not the same then a check should be made.

Also when after my divorce. and the kids with me I had to go back to the UK .

Firstly to clear the overstay and get new non O visa.

Also to finalise sale of a property.

What was interesting the immigration officer said to other in Thai.wgukst I was paying the fine

Something to the extent of

" he must have a good reason he's got kids here.etc etc.

So what exactly is on the system?

The kids are definitely linked to me on their system.

[offset]

My wife has never asked about this when commuting between Thailand and Europe with my son on the many occasions. Perhaps it's different when the father travels with children?

If your wife is Farang the same as you, that would be expected, if on the other hand she is a Thai person traveling with mixed race children, who also have a Farang name she should be stopped and asked for proof that she has your permission to take the children out of Thailand. But as we all know the rules are not the same for everybody.

Why should she be stopped? There is no law that states this. When I go with my daughter, there is no law that says I need my wife's permission unless there is a court order to prevent me from doing so. This is my understanding after researching about this. if the officer has any reason to suspect something then he can ask so it may be wise to have a letter just in case.

Has anyone ever been refused from leaving the country with their children?

If you only have 50% parental rights each neither of you have the final say in what happens with the child you both have to agree what is best for the child and that is what to immigration are trying to make sure that is happening

[Chuckles78]

My wife has never asked about this when commuting between Thailand and Europe with my son on the many occasions. Perhaps it's different when the father travels with children?

If your wife is Farang the same as you, that would be expected, if on the other hand she is a Thai person traveling with mixed race children, who also have a Farang name she should be stopped and asked for proof that she has your permission to take the children out of Thailand. But as we all know the rules are not the same for everybody.

My wife is Thai and we never had a problem. Here is the reason why/when a married couples don't need a signature when departing from EU, thailand I'm not sure about the policy but again we were never asked (Translated from EU justice website):

"In which cases a child may be brought by a parent without the consent of the other parent in another country?":

Each parent is entitled to travel with the child during the period in which the child lives with him or visiting him, without the consent of the other parent temporarily abroad.

Short breaks (z. B. the ride to neighboring countries for shopping) or long trips (eg. As in the holidays) may be made without the consent of the other parent, if they take place during the period in which the child will be entitled to have access perceives with that parent.

Which identity cards or other documents shall accompany such a trip depends on the legal regulations that apply in the destination country.

"In which cases the consent of the other parent is required to spend the child in another country are allowed?":

For each permanent removal of the child, the consent of both parents is imperative, regardless of whether they are entitled to the custody is shared or not.

The transfer of residence or permanent residence abroad is considered permanent spending and requires the consent of both parents.

The consent of both parents is also required for the temporary removal of the child from serious reasons (eg. As important medical treatment).

For reasons of traceability, parents must give their consent in writing. Parents can create the document itself. If the destination country requires, the parents can certify their agreement in court.

https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_lawful_removal_of_the_child-289-lu-maximizeMS_EJN-de.do?member=1

Edited January 1, 2016 by Chuckles78

[Sawan Chan 7]

^^^^

Thanks for the above what still baffles me is a previous post by Steveb2

At London Heathrow LHR .... err I assumed that with us both being UK citizens and passport holders that entry would be easy. NOT SO.
Immigration wanted to know where the mother was and why she wasn't travelling with us together. We were both taken out the Que and interrogated. Shit got very real very quickly.
It was looking very much like we were not going to be let us into the UK and would have to return to Thailand.
Then, I showed them the FMB letter and its official English translation - then suddenly all the peaked hats smiled and wished us good luck and we were on our way.

[nontabury]

^^^^

Thanks for the above what still baffles me is a previous post by Steveb2

At London Heathrow LHR .... err I assumed that with us both being UK citizens and passport holders that entry would be easy. NOT SO.

Immigration wanted to know where the mother was and why she wasn't travelling with us together. We were both taken out the Que and interrogated. Shit got very real very quickly.

It was looking very much like we were not going to be let us into the UK and would have to return to Thailand.

Then, I showed them the FMB letter and its official English translation - then suddenly all the peaked hats smiled and wished us good luck and we were on our way.

X2

[Deserted]

^^^^

Thanks for the above what still baffles me is a previous post by Steveb2

At London Heathrow LHR .... err I assumed that with us both being UK citizens and passport holders that entry would be easy. NOT SO.

Immigration wanted to know where the mother was and why she wasn't travelling with us together. We were both taken out the Que and interrogated. Shit got very real very quickly.

It was looking very much like we were not going to be let us into the UK and would have to return to Thailand.

Then, I showed them the FMB letter and its official English translation - then suddenly all the peaked hats smiled and wished us good luck and we were on our way.

X2

Doesn't surprise me.

[Chuckles78]

^^^^

Thanks for the above what still baffles me is a previous post by Steveb2

At London Heathrow LHR .... err I assumed that with us both being UK citizens and passport holders that entry would be easy. NOT SO.

Immigration wanted to know where the mother was and why she wasn't travelling with us together. We were both taken out the Que and interrogated. Shit got very real very quickly.

It was looking very much like we were not going to be let us into the UK and would have to return to Thailand.

Then, I showed them the FMB letter and its official English translation - then suddenly all the peaked hats smiled and wished us good luck and we were on our way.

X2

Doesn't surprise me.

Random interviews/interrogations can happen. I'm sure they would have been satisfied with a proper explanation. No need to get worked up about it if you have all the proper paper work (passports etc).

Edited January 2, 2016 by Chuckles78

[Johnniey]

^^^^

Thanks for the above what still baffles me is a previous post by Steveb2

At London Heathrow LHR .... err I assumed that with us both being UK citizens and passport holders that entry would be easy. NOT SO.

Immigration wanted to know where the mother was and why she wasn't travelling with us together. We were both taken out the Que and interrogated. Shit got very real very quickly.

It was looking very much like we were not going to be let us into the UK and would have to return to Thailand.

Then, I showed them the FMB letter and its official English translation - then suddenly all the peaked hats smiled and wished us good luck and we were on our way.

X2

Doesn't surprise me.

Random interviews/interrogations can happen. I'm sure they would have been satisfied with a proper explanation. No need to get worked up about it if you have all the proper paper work (passports etc).[/q

What is the proper paper work? Just passports? I'd recommend taking the child's birth certificate in case.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Johnniey

[Sawan Chan 7]

What is the proper paper work? Just passports? I'd recommend taking the child's birth certificate in case.

This is the big question - nobody seems to know for sure.

[Apiwan2]

I'm thinking of asking at the airport next time I go through .

After you pass immigration.

There's a table for paying your overstay.

These are immigration officers.

Surely if anyone should know it would be them.

Because they are the people to stop you.

Thoughts ?

[Sawan Chan 7]

I'm thinking of asking at the airport next time I go through .

After you pass immigration.

There's a table for paying your overstay.

These are immigration officers.

Surely if anyone should know it would be them.

Because they are the people to stop you.

Thoughts ?

Please let us know.

My wife is going to the local Amphur and going to ask someone there if they know what, if anything is required.

[nontabury]

I'm thinking of asking at the airport next time I go through .

After you pass immigration.

There's a table for paying your overstay.

These are immigration officers.

Surely if anyone should know it would be them.

Because they are the people to stop you.

Thoughts ?

Please let us know.

My wife is going to the local Amphur and going to ask someone there if they know what, if anything is required.

You can ask two Thai officials sitting at adjacent desks,and be assured of two opposite answers.

[Sawan Chan 7]

https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control/before-you-leave-for-the-uk

[Johnniey]

I went to the UK this week and was asked for nothing. My daughter is 13 but could pass for older.

Leaving Thailand we were in different queues.

Entering the UK, I asked the immigration guy and he said because we had the same surname, there was no problem.

We could have gone through at different times. I wonder if there is an age limit where a kid can travel alone. With BA is allowed.