Why so many openings at Prem?

[orang37]

Wow, all of those words with no substance. Newsflash, people change jobs! However, if we look at the job listings, and assume they are vacant positions from people leaving their posts, I will guarantee it is SIGNIFICANTLY higher compared to years past at PREM, if that info is available.

Well, for someone who questions (as I would) the various extrapolated statements of causality ... from correlations extrapolated from limited data ... on this thread, I wonder how it is that you can "guarantee" the relative magnitude of data for this year is higher ... when that's based on "info" you imply you have not seen.

If someone says to me: "the horses in the stable are restless," I'd want to get it from the horses' mouths, and direct observation of what's happening in the stable.

~o:37;

p.s. I do not assume you do not have psychic powers.

Edited December 25, 2015 by orang37

[Mapguy]

"Why so many openings at Prem."

Well, from the start, that sort of "loaded" thread title, we could tell a lot about the OP and where the discussion was supposed to go, according to OP. Then there have been some very uninformed posters, some of whom don't seem to have graduated from school but have masters degrees in ThaiVisa posting. Fortunately, there have been some sensible posts, as well.

Further, for OP to take the opinion of one "straight-up guy" who is made to appear like some sort of malcontent is not my idea of a meaningful source about a school, especially presented secondhand. An insinuation that the head of school or "executive staff" are pricks is less than helpful.

Looking more broadly, comparably, Prem is the class act in town --- and you pay for it. The diplomas provided by other schools in Chiang Mai don't "travel" as well as an IB qualification or experience in this school. The qualifications to sustain an IB program are numerous and expensive for a school. That is one reason it is relatively expensive. Other reasons are the amenities, of which there are many, plus the fact that Prem does take in and educate children with different levels of ability (but not all). To do this Prem is in the market for and expects to hire and pay for better-qualified teachers. And they are expected to work. Yes, additional duties expected, which is routine for any private school.

For Chiang Mai, there are other international schools plus a couple who claim to be international, meaning that they have some sort of "international qualification" program. Don't be fooled. On the other hand, it does not mean that children can't do quite well out of NIS, CMIS, or Lanna --- but, generally, don't expect diplomas from those schools to travel anywhere nearly as well as one from Prem.

By the way, having five vacancies is not high annually for a staff that size, and I know that over time Prem has sustained quite a favorable retention rate given the nomadic nature of teachers in the international school biz.

And the above is not hearsay.

Maybe it is time to have another go-round about Chiang Mai schools. There hasn't been one for quite a while. But I suggest a topic title that is not provocative as this one, and, if I read it correctly, just into trouble-making.

[bangmai]

I suppose asking about the SAT scores is a loaded, slanted question?

[Dante99]

Mapguy:

Yes an IB Diploma has value but

What percentage of last years graduating class earned an IB Diploma? and the year before last?

It is a misconscption that if you graduate from Prem you will get an IB Diploma, many do not.

[MESmith]

"Why so many openings at Prem." Well, from the start, that sort of "loaded" thread title, we could tell a lot about the OP and where the discussion was supposed to go, according to OP. Then there have been some very uninformed posters, some of whom don't seem to have graduated from school but have masters degrees in ThaiVisa posting. Fortunately, there have been some sensible posts, as well. Further, for OP to take the opinion of one "straight-up guy" who is made to appear like some sort of malcontent is not my idea of a meaningful source about a school, especially presented secondhand. An insinuation that the head of school or "executive staff" are pricks is less than helpful. Looking more broadly, comparably, Prem is the class act in town --- and you pay for it. The diplomas provided by other schools in Chiang Mai don't "travel" as well as an IB qualification or experience in this school. The qualifications to sustain an IB program are numerous and expensive for a school. That is one reason it is relatively expensive. Other reasons are the amenities, of which there are many, plus the fact that Prem does take in and educate children with different levels of ability (but not all). To do this Prem is in the market for and expects to hire and pay for better-qualified teachers. And they are expected to work. Yes, additional duties expected, which is routine for any private school. For Chiang Mai, there are other international schools plus a couple who claim to be international, meaning that they have some sort of "international qualification" program. Don't be fooled. On the other hand, it does not mean that children can't do quite well out of NIS, CMIS, or Lanna --- but, generally, don't expect diplomas from those schools to travel anywhere nearly as well as one from Prem. By the way, having five vacancies is not high annually for a staff that size, and I know that over time Prem has sustained quite a favorable retention rate given the nomadic nature of teachers in the international school biz. And the above is not hearsay. Maybe it is time to have another go-round about Chiang Mai schools. There hasn't been one for quite a while. But I suggest a topic title that is not provocative as this one, and, if I read it correctly, just into trouble-making.

Paragraphs, please, or I ain't reading your post...

[bangmai]

Perhaps, a simple list of what unis the seniors will be attending in the Fall? A school in BKK did it, and published it in the BKK Post.

[millwall_fan]

The trouble with the IB is that a significant amount of it is teacher assessed and not fully internationally moderated. IGCE is exam based and externally marked to UK standards, so much less chance of rich parents putting pressure on schools for good results. This is also a problem in Thai universities where significant numbers bribe their way in, get others to write essays for them and pay for top marks.

[CMKiwi]

Hey Mapguy, do you have a vested interest in Prem or are you just trying to defend the place?

Then you have a go at some members of TV forum about their schooling or lack of it. Even when information is stated as told you want to find fault with it, or perhaps if I got the teacher to 'come on line' and repeat what has been said you still wouldnt believe it.

Of course we all have to be careful in what we say and write, as slander is a very big issue (possibly more so in this country as it doesnt matter if allegations are founded or not).

Your points are noted and I also take into account that one mans'/teachers' viewpoint maybe tarnished as he was subject to the ill treatment/management. However when I hear of other staff being likewise 'disappointed' then I see a pattern emerging. And they cant all be wrong.

For the sake of Prem school and their students, I hope this 'matter' is resolved and not just swept under the mat. It has been a great school in the past and I do wish it has successful future.

Like any great voyage you need to have someone strong at the helm to steer the ship. However respect from those whom help with the voyage (Subordinates) has to be earnt, its not a given.

[Dante99]

Perhaps, a simple list of what unis the seniors will be attending in the Fall? A school in BKK did it, and published it in the BKK Post.

Prem used to do it but have not seen anything recently. No news is not always good news.

[Mapguy]

Mapguy:

Yes an IB Diploma has value but

What percentage of last years graduating class earned an IB Diploma? and the year before last?

It is a misconscption that if you graduate from Prem you will get an IB Diploma, many do not.

This is true. But there are other factors. I mentioned that Prem is selective on admissions, but it still takes on students with less academic potential, some with learning problems and disabilities. These students aren't up to a full-bore IP program and are not expected to be. Some have the promise but still choose not to go that route. But they are not cheated. They benefit, too, from the general learning and curricular values of the school.

One other point. IB schools worldwide have similar standards that compare very favorably with other International schools and curriculum transportability. That means a lot to many families. In fact, developing a quality transportable "system" was the original aim when the program was established.

All this is not to say that Prem has five-star teachers and administrators across the board -- and that the school, like any school, doesn't get parental pressure some of the time. Nor is Prem the best place for all teachers. Then there is the founder's unique approach to an intergenerational learning community. You can Google that.

The Thai and local expat community have an unusual number of choices to make. Some are quite fine, but Prem is comparably very strong, but you are going to have to pay more. I'll repeat what I said about the questionable value of some programs: caveat emptor.

[Mapguy]

I suppose asking about the SAT scores is a loaded, slanted question?

No, it isn't a loaded question except to say that there has actually been quite a stir in recent years about American SATs, ACTs and other standardised tests including the UK versions. Their value is questioned, especially among quality universities some of which no longer request such test scores. Their appropriate proportionate share in the admissions process has been argued for years. Edited December 26, 2015 by Mapguy

[Dante99]

Mapguy babbles on but as usual does not answer the questions he has been asked. What is wrong, the answers do not support the babble? Same evasive sh..t the marketers provide.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Dante99

[Mapguy]

Mapguy babbles on but as usual does not answer the questions he has been asked. What is wrong, the answers do not support the babble? Same evasive sh..t the marketers provide.

Sounds a bit grumpy to me!

Not sure what specific questions you refer to. If it is about actual SAT scores --- that sort of thing --- then call the school --- any school. Fine, call them all. That is their business to publish or not to publish.

I am not marketing for Prem. My babble, as you put it, is to try to provide some context. One-liners aren't particularly useful all the time.

Returning to my comments on the original post, I stand by them. ANd I'd repeat a call for more general "school talk" on TV Chiang Mai if parents are interested. There are previous archived discussions if TV hasn't trashed them since they go back some time.

Short enough post for you? Enough paragraph breaks for ease of reading? Spelling ok?

[Ricardo]

The trouble with the IB is that a significant amount of it is teacher assessed and not fully internationally moderated. IGCE is exam based and externally marked to UK standards, so much less chance of rich parents putting pressure on schools for good results. This is also a problem in Thai universities where significant numbers bribe their way in, get others to write essays for them and pay for top marks.

The IB-Diploma exams, which my older son took 18-months ago, were marked overseas in-full, perhaps it's the internal termly/semester reports, which are assessed in-house at Prem, and that surely happens at every school ? He scraped a pass, got his IB-Diploma, and is now at a very good Canadian university, who were pleased to take him provided he got I.B., and held a place to within a few weeks of the course commencing.

Interestingly he now says he feels, that some other (Canadian-educated) fellow-students were not as well-prepared for university-life as he was by Prem, for whatever that's worth.

Prem does compare itself to other international-schools, for example I just received back the results for my other child, from an International Schools Assessment last September, where individual children are compared to 64,000 students in 312 international schools from 78 countries. He did quite well, compared to the OECD's Programme for International Student Assessment, and has certainly improved at Prem.

I'd be more concerned about local UK-standards, and US-standards, if he were at a school teaching UK-system (like Lanna, which I hear good things about), or planning on going to further-study in the USA. But we've found that I.B. is perfectly acceptable, round the world, and have no complaints. It's not GCSE or SAT, it's I.B., a different (and possibly more-international ?) system.

There always seems, in this sort of thread, to be a lot of prejudice against Prem, because it's not a familiar UK/US system or because it's perceived as being somehow hi-so, or overly-expensive. While I do agree that it costs more than other local international-schools, it's nowhere near the level that one previous poster claimed, and I certainly don't regard myself as 'hi-so'. I chose Prem because it delivers an internationally-accepted qualification, at a price I can just-about afford, and because I don't see anywhere else better in Chiang Mai, for a broad international-education. Up to me !

Which isn't to say that there aren't other good schools locally, but they all have their pros & cons, which I won't re-hash, so I would agree that maybe it's time for a new non-knocking thread, to deliver the latest views and experiences on education in Chiang Mai, which is something we all care about.

[Loaded]

I suppose asking about the SAT scores is a loaded, slanted question?

No, it isn't a loaded question except to say that there has actually been quite a stir in recent years about American SATs, ACTs and other standardised tests including the UK versions. Their value is questioned, especially among quality universities some of which no longer request such test scores. Their appropriate proportionate share in the admissions process has been argued for years.

Bangmai

Just so that you know, suggest a question is 'slanted' in the UK and you'll be accused of racism. Letters would be written to the BBC.

[millwall_fan]

The trouble with the IB is that a significant amount of it is teacher assessed and not fully internationally moderated. IGCE is exam based and externally marked to UK standards, so much less chance of rich parents putting pressure on schools for good results. This is also a problem in Thai universities where significant numbers bribe their way in, get others to write essays for them and pay for top marks.

The IB-Diploma exams, which my older son took 18-months ago, were marked overseas in-full, perhaps it's the internal termly/semester reports, which are assessed in-house at Prem, and that surely happens at every school ? He scraped a pass, got his IB-Diploma, and is now at a very good Canadian university, who were pleased to take him provided he got I.B., and held a place to within a few weeks of the course commencing.

Interestingly he now says he feels, that some other (Canadian-educated) fellow-students were not as well-prepared for university-life as he was by Prem, for whatever that's worth.

Prem does compare itself to other international-schools, for example I just received back the results for my other child, from an International Schools Assessment last September, where individual children are compared to 64,000 students in 312 international schools from 78 countries. He did quite well, compared to the OECD's Programme for International Student Assessment, and has certainly improved at Prem.

I'd be more concerned about local UK-standards, and US-standards, if he were at a school teaching UK-system (like Lanna, which I hear good things about), or planning on going to further-study in the USA. But we've found that I.B. is perfectly acceptable, round the world, and have no complaints. It's not GCSE or SAT, it's I.B., a different (and possibly more-international ?) system.

There always seems, in this sort of thread, to be a lot of prejudice against Prem, because it's not a familiar UK/US system or because it's perceived as being somehow hi-so, or overly-expensive. While I do agree that it costs more than other local international-schools, it's nowhere near the level that one previous poster claimed, and I certainly don't regard myself as 'hi-so'. I chose Prem because it delivers an internationally-accepted qualification, at a price I can just-about afford, and because I don't see anywhere else better in Chiang Mai, for a broad international-education. Up to me !

Which isn't to say that there aren't other good schools locally, but they all have their pros & cons, which I won't re-hash, so I would agree that maybe it's time for a new non-knocking thread, to deliver the latest views and experiences on education in Chiang Mai, which is something we all care about.

Thank you for sharing your experience and please believe me, I am not in any way anti-Prem. I would be delighted for my son to go there if we could afford it and in the past I have considered applying for a job there - which is one reason I have heard the rumours about increased workload and reducing benefits for teachers which is kind of what this thread is about. My concern is that the IB, perhaps more so than IGCE depends on a level of academic integrity that simply does not exist in Thailand - if it did, the highly patriotic elite and upper middle classes would not put their kids through 'foreign' school programmes in their own country and then to overseas universities.

I'm not in any way insinuating that your son's IB through Prem came about by anything other than hard work, but there are ways for the rich to circumvent the need for intelligence. Delighted to hear that your son is doing well at uni in Canada and good luck to him with the rest of his studies.

[LarryBird]

I suppose asking about the SAT scores is a loaded, slanted question?

No, it isn't a loaded question except to say that there has actually been quite a stir in recent years about American SATs, ACTs and other standardised tests including the UK versions. Their value is questioned, especially among quality universities some of which no longer request such test scores. Their appropriate proportionate share in the admissions process has been argued for years.

Oh, ok. So if one group of 100 students has an average sat score in the 95th percentile, and 100 students from another school average in the 40th percentile, you couldn't pick a side to come out a head if they all played chess against each other?

On an individual basis, a standardized test isn't going to paint the entire picture, but it certainly gives some information..

[LarryBird]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that enrollment might be significantly increasing. One thing I was told about Prem is that there are a lot of Chinese students at the school now. If the school has become an attractive option to the Chinese, then it seems reasonable enrollment could rapidly increase.

[naboo]

...it could be that there is a large influx of Chinese students to Chiang Mai currently and Prem is therefore expanding its, so needs more staff.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that enrollment might be significantly increasing. One thing I was told about Prem is that there are a lot of Chinese students at the school now. If the school has become an attractive option to the Chinese, then it seems reasonable enrollment could rapidly increase.

Cough, cough.

[bangmai]

Here's three years of SAT scores for every school in my county. Took me less than one minute to find it. A lot of realtors keep a copy, with them.

http://www.fcps.edu/cco/pr/satact/2014/Table2.pdf All public, by boudaries, except for TJ, which is a magnet school, and often considered the best in the US.

[bangmai]

I suppose asking about the SAT scores is a loaded, slanted question?

No, it isn't a loaded question except to say that there has actually been quite a stir in recent years about American SATs, ACTs and other standardised tests including the UK versions. Their value is questioned, especially among quality universities some of which no longer request such test scores. Their appropriate proportionate share in the admissions process has been argued for years.

Agreed, there have always been people making excuses for the students, who don't do well on standardized tests. But, wouldn't that be a good reason to publish a list of where the little geniuses will attend university? Isn't that the best marketing tool a school can have, even better than an indoor swimming pool?

Edited December 26, 2015 by bangmai

[Dante99]

The trouble with the IB is that a significant amount of it is teacher assessed and not fully internationally moderated. IGCE is exam based and externally marked to UK standards, so much less chance of rich parents putting pressure on schools for good results. This is also a problem in Thai universities where significant numbers bribe their way in, get others to write essays for them and pay for top marks.

The IB-Diploma exams, which my older son took 18-months ago, were marked overseas in-full,

IB Diploma exams are externally graded but IB grades are not based 100% on those exam scores, there is a component of the grade which is based on other work over a two year period and that is where local grading influences outcomes. The portion of the grade that is exam based varries from course to course but generally it is large compared to the other work.

It is a very complicated grading system, multiple criteria weighted differently for different courses. A friend's son just missed the IB Diploma by a point or two and requested that 3 of his exams be regraded and paid a fee for that. Two of the exam scores were changed, one by several points on something like a 7 point scale, which resulted in him getting his IB Diploma. Makes one wonder.

Congratulations to son for earning the IB Diploma, it is not easily done.

[LarryBird]

Every time Prem gets mentioned on here, there is always the ensuing mud flinging. Unsubstantiated generalizations about the student body being the most common one. It's always difficult to have an opinion about a school until you've actually spent some time there, whether it be as faculty, or as a student. I commend what they're trying to do there. It seems like they pay their teachers well, with the intention of getting a well qualified faculty. It can't be easy to build a boarding school.

I think we can all imagine that if we built an International School in Chiang Mai, that it might struggle getting out of the gates. I think it would be hard to build a strong academic reputation immediately, given that the first priority would be to pay the bills and get students in the seats. Let's be honest, ultimately, the students make the school, not the teachers. If you put a bunch of random teachers in front of the children of doctors, lawyers and engineers, those students will tend to have good SAT scores and other academic standards. The teachers matter, most of us can think of those teachers that inspired us to learn more, but I would say they're the least important ingredient compared to student, parents, peers. At the end of the day though, that's the ingredient that is probably easiest for Prem to control. Hopefully if the speculation that Chinese are applying is correct, then the school can afford to be more selective with its applicants.

[Puwa]

I like Prem because it keeps property values in the area relatively high and stable, it employs dozens upon dozens of local people, creating a very farang-friendly atmosphere, and it keeps 1000 rai of beautiful land from being developed foolishly.

As for the academic side of things, that's for the students, faculty, and families to evaluate and address.

[millwall_fan]

I like Prem because it keeps property values in the area relatively high and stable, it employs dozens upon dozens of local people, creating a very farang-friendly atmosphere, and it keeps 1000 rai of beautiful land from being developed foolishly.

As for the academic side of things, that's for the students, faculty, and families to evaluate and address.

Good to see you're alright Jack!

[Puwa]

I like Prem because it keeps property values in the area relatively high and stable, it employs dozens upon dozens of local people, creating a very farang-friendly atmosphere, and it keeps 1000 rai of beautiful land from being developed foolishly.

As for the academic side of things, that's for the students, faculty, and families to evaluate and address.

Good to see you're alright Jack!

Right back at ya, Cupcake!

[Rimkok]

A teaching gig at prem is pretty much the most coveted gig in the region, outside of getting a cushy spot at a consulate. The OP asks a reasonable question, only to be bombarded with unrelated suppositions. If there are really that many people leaving at the school, it is highly unlikely it is simply up to a coincidence of many teachers wanting to return home, or leave for another common reason. There has likely been something significant to occur if it looks like that many teachers are leaving one of the highest paying jobs in the region.

Assuming that a 'gig' is a teaching position, If you would care to re read what people have posted above, it is perfectly normal in international schools for there to be a high turnover. International school teachers throughout the world are generally on 2 year contracts and as they tend to be younger, part of the attraction of the job is to experience living and working in different parts of the world. I am currently on my second contract as I am older and my son has a free place at my school and is very happy there. Whether I move on next contract or become, as Naboo says, part of the furniture will depend on a number of factors including, but not restricted to, the salary I am offered.

Good luck to you. I remember you from the Olde Bell. I am glad to hear you are still here and landed a teaching job. Merry Christmas.