Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[mrrizzla]

Did the trail ever 'confirm' who the running shirtless man in the photo was?

Interesting that both the man and Nomsod have that bent arm characteristic.

[kcirtapyelrah]

Really: 2 Birmese boys versus the allmighty.

We all knew the outcome, only finally the verdict is hitting us hard.

Sure hit me with a not so merry xmas.

I feel very frustrated. Nothing we all can do not even protest.

We can keep showing our discontent and never forget the injustice of it. The only way to beat the injustice in Thailand is not to go there, but you need unity for that and that's never going to happen.

[berybert]

Davids inquest will be a rather strange affair. When it is proven that he wasn't killed by a hoe what will the family say. They must know how he was killed already, so that makes it even stranger as to why they are going along with the Thai farce.

[kcirtapyelrah]

Did the trail ever 'confirm' who the running shirtless man in the photo was?

Interesting that both the man and Nomsod have that bent arm characteristic.

This whole case is absurd, it's obvious who it is.

[007cableguy]

After seeing the video of gang of murderers in Kanchanburi where they carried out a horrific attack on the young defenseless guy using anything they could to kill him, (Did someone say no Thai's could do something so bad? Bang goes that theory!)

I'm 100% convinced there were more then two people .

Also it was not the B2

[iReason]

CCTV

3:44 am

4:48 am

4:51 am

Edited December 27, 2015 by iReason

[xylophone]

Going to take another tack here, so that some sort of focus can be brought to bear on a very important aspect that seems to have escaped the attention of some folk.

Let's agree to forget the following established points: –

– That the crime scene was contaminated; easy to see even by the uninitiated, and certainly backed up by Dr Pornthip and others with experience in this field.

– That important CCTV footage has gone missing (e.g. from the pier).

– That the actual DNA evidence presented in relation to semen being found in the poor girl's body was not viable evidence at all, with no chain of custody recorded, but was simply a piece of paper (with many alterations on it including incorrect dates) saying that it matched (much information on this and it is easy to understand).

– That the hoe photographed at the scene of the crime and supposedly shortly after, was not the one presented in court (there are photographs to prove this as the one photographed at the crime scene and supposedly used in the crime had a large piece missing from the top right-hand corner, whereas the one produced in court did not).

– That whichever hoe was tested, the DNA of the B2 was not shown to be present.

– That photographs of the back of David’s head showed there to be around eight small "stab like" wounds and nothing else.

The last point brings into focus something which is truly astounding, and that is that the judge(s) found that David was killed by the hoe! This when there was absolutely no correlation whatsoever between the small stab wounds and the hoe blade, yet exactly what that hoe blade could do was clearly seen in relation to poor Hannah.

This and this alone should cast grave doubts on the verdict, let alone the points I have listed above, and there are still many more which could be brought into the picture, which would surely show this to be an absolute travesty of justice, even by those who are trying to support the verdict.

The supporters can go on all they like about the B2 returning to the beach for this reason or that reason, and finding a phone, yet still overlook the most important points, some of which are highlighted above, which is quite amazing and will surely be the reason I will make this my last post, because where such folk are concerned, their inability to see past that which they want to believe has closed their eyes and minds to the strongest aspects of the case.

[greenchair]

Also on August 21, the defence withdrew a request to the court to have DNA tests re-taken on prosecution evidence. Up to that point defence lawyers had said that this was central to their case.

http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/national-news/16198-thai-police-confirm-british-cooperation-in-koh-tao-case.html

Seems to me, that when the defence saw that the DNA evidence implicated the B2 as being the murderers, they suddenly lost interest in this as it was so damaging to their cause rather than being able to aid it as hoped. In the first instance, they were screaming to high heaven to be allowed to see the DNA evidence, then all of the sudden they mysteriously buried it once they had been allowed to view it and it was to pay no more of a role in the defence case from this point on!!

I think that it was at this point that they realised that they were 'well and truly sunk' and facing the inevitable truth that the B2 were in fact guilty and facing the gallows. The judges could see through the ruses that proliferated the defence teams case and dismissed them one by one, preferring to look at real hard evidence as supplied by the prosecutors.

That's right. And everyone thought andy hall would go off to see the British coroner and get the bombshell evidence to exonerate the b2. But bam another dead end. And after much hallabaloo for the brits to share information. A British judge went through their reports and politely told andy there is nothing here that would help your case. We cannot give information as it might lead to the death penalty. It will be interesting to see how they will defend the concealment charge. "I was casually walking along the beach at 5am looking for my shoes that were left near a double murder. I looked down and there was a telephone, so I picked it up and took it home ".

"Then I heard about these murders that I know nothing about. So I tried to get rid of the phone, because it might belong to the victim "

"But I wasn't trying to hide it,I don't know who the phone belongs to "

[bunglebag]

Does anyone know what Buddhism says about conspiring to frame two innocents for murders they didn't commit? And what about Buddhists who don't come forward to tell the truth?

For months and months I was convinced that someone would come forward and speak the truth no matter what, because their religion speaks about doing good and the laws of karma but it never happened. Strange.

So of 100's of people on Koh Tao who actually know what really happened nobody came forward with their story? And all out of fear? It's impossible to cover up a story of this magnitude on such a small island! So it's kind of logical that many people know the real story. There must even be farangs who live and work on Tao who know the truth, either working in the diving industry or owning businesses. That nobody sticks their neck out for anyone anymore is maybe part of the time we live in. Can't imagine someone who knows the truth would be quiet and let 2 boys be sent to jail all their lives or even killed for a crime they didn't commit. That's impossible

Trust me it's happening. Plenty of people on Sairee know what happened and who did it.

The decent ones are genuinely scared for their lives so won't talk, and the bad ones are protecting the true culprits in various ways, some of them are on this thread. We all know who. Utter contempt for them.

[bunglebag]

David's head wounds looked like stab wounds from those ninja shurikens but more of a clover shaped blade designed to be put between your fingers for a stabbing motion. Also he had wounds on his fist indicating that he fought with his attackers before he was over powered. The court are saying that he was savagely attacked from behind, if so you would imagine that he wouldn't of been able to stand up to defend himself.

It is my belief that David had come to try and rescue Hannah and was beaten by the gang that were there hence the wounds to his fists. David tried his best but was overpowered by numbers. Plus one of Nomsod's possy was a big fella for a Thai guy. He didn't really stand a chance.

How David was killed was conveniently overlooked (or misinterpreted) by the court, when it ought to have taken precedence, and cast doubts on the ability of two small men being able to overpower and kill him while he was facing them. IMO, this is the biggest flaw in the prosecution's case. If the B2 were at the crime scene, I'd lay a pound to a penny that there were others - and I hope they will speak out and reveal the truth of what happened that night.

It's my belief that the B2 were there for clean up duty. Moving bodies and evidence and what not ordered by the real perps (the B2's employers, or family of their employers). I think that once the real culprits knew that the B2 could be put in a compromising position that the set up against them began.

This was a crime of hate. It had been reported that there was an incident in that bar the same night with Hannah rebuffing the advance of one of the locals. I think that perhaps Yaba was involved into making it into a jealous fit of rage and this local then took his local gang with him to 'correct' the embarrassment. It was a matter of wrong place, wrong time for Hannah, David and the B2.

It is certainly conceivable that the B2 may have been involved at some point - but no way were they responsible for this crime. If any involvement then most likely they were coerced by the killers, post mortem imo. Moving bodies and possibly even 'persuaded' to produce dna samples! No way are they going to argue with the big boys who run the island because there will only be one winner there. And unfortunately corruption seems to rule all the way to the top

[bunglebag]

After seeing the video of gang of murderers in Kanchanburi where they carried out a horrific attack on the young defenseless guy using anything they could to kill him, (Did someone say no Thai's could do something so bad? Bang goes that theory!)

I'm 100% convinced there were more then two people .

Also it was not the B2

1000%

[bunglebag]

Going to take another tack here, so that some sort of focus can be brought to bear on a very important aspect that seems to have escaped the attention of some folk.

Let's agree to forget the following established points: –

– That the crime scene was contaminated; easy to see even by the uninitiated, and certainly backed up by Dr Pornthip and others with experience in this field.

– That important CCTV footage has gone missing (e.g. from the pier).

– That the actual DNA evidence presented in relation to semen being found in the poor girl's body was not viable evidence at all, with no chain of custody recorded, but was simply a piece of paper (with many alterations on it including incorrect dates) saying that it matched (much information on this and it is easy to understand).

– That the hoe photographed at the scene of the crime and supposedly shortly after, was not the one presented in court (there are photographs to prove this as the one photographed at the crime scene and supposedly used in the crime had a large piece missing from the top right-hand corner, whereas the one produced in court did not).

– That whichever hoe was tested, the DNA of the B2 was not shown to be present.

– That photographs of the back of David’s head showed there to be around eight small "stab like" wounds and nothing else.

The last point brings into focus something which is truly astounding, and that is that the judge(s) found that David was killed by the hoe! This when there was absolutely no correlation whatsoever between the small stab wounds and the hoe blade, yet exactly what that hoe blade could do was clearly seen in relation to poor Hannah.

This and this alone should cast grave doubts on the verdict, let alone the points I have listed above, and there are still many more which could be brought into the picture, which would surely show this to be an absolute travesty of justice, even by those who are trying to support the verdict.

The supporters can go on all they like about the B2 returning to the beach for this reason or that reason, and finding a phone, yet still overlook the most important points, some of which are highlighted above, which is quite amazing and will surely be the reason I will make this my last post, because where such folk are concerned, their inability to see past that which they want to believe has closed their eyes and minds to the strongest aspects of the case.

Agree with all your points but the last I don't think is 100% accurate. I'd would have said that in addition to the smaller stab wounds there were a couple of larger gashes on the side / back of the head - too big for the stabbing weapon that caused many of his other injuries, but equally not done with the hoe blade as it looked like flesh damage but not bone damage - My guess would be a larger blunt instrument for these - possibly the blunt side of the hoe? or quite possibly another weapon as was first mentioned by the original man in charge before he was removed from the investigation. There is certainly no way the hoe made all the smaller puncture wounds though

Edited December 27, 2015 by bunglebag

[smedly]

since there are many accusations about the integrety of the DNA testing and results and the judge has asserted that the conviction was based on the DNA tests and a couple of posters on here also claim that the defence team refused to retest and that all original samples are still available, there seems to be a very obvious and simple solution.

If the defence team refused why didn't the prosecution/police have the DNA retested independently "from the original samples" (that some here claim they still have) at the Central Institute of Forensic Science a department of the ministry of justice in Bangkok, wouldn't that have removed once and for all the speculation surrounding the DNA, if the defence as claimed refused to do this then surely this would have been a slam dunk for the prosecution

Pretty simple really unless they had something to hide

[mrrizzla]

David's head wounds looked like stab wounds from those ninja shurikens but more of a clover shaped blade designed to be put between your fingers for a stabbing motion. Also he had wounds on his fist indicating that he fought with his attackers before he was over powered. The court are saying that he was savagely attacked from behind, if so you would imagine that he wouldn't of been able to stand up to defend himself.

It is my belief that David had come to try and rescue Hannah and was beaten by the gang that were there hence the wounds to his fists. David tried his best but was overpowered by numbers. Plus one of Nomsod's possy was a big fella for a Thai guy. He didn't really stand a chance.

How David was killed was conveniently overlooked (or misinterpreted) by the court, when it ought to have taken precedence, and cast doubts on the ability of two small men being able to overpower and kill him while he was facing them. IMO, this is the biggest flaw in the prosecution's case. If the B2 were at the crime scene, I'd lay a pound to a penny that there were others - and I hope they will speak out and reveal the truth of what happened that night.

It's my belief that the B2 were there for clean up duty. Moving bodies and evidence and what not ordered by the real perps (the B2's employers, or family of their employers). I think that once the real culprits knew that the B2 could be put in a compromising position that the set up against them began.

This was a crime of hate. It had been reported that there was an incident in that bar the same night with Hannah rebuffing the advance of one of the locals. I think that perhaps Yaba was involved into making it into a jealous fit of rage and this local then took his local gang with him to 'correct' the embarrassment. It was a matter of wrong place, wrong time for Hannah, David and the B2.

It is certainly conceivable that the B2 may have been involved at some point - but no way were they responsible for this crime. If any involvement then most likely they were coerced by the killers, post mortem imo. Moving bodies and possibly even 'persuaded' to produce dna samples! No way are they going to argue with the big boys who run the island because there will only be one winner there. And unfortunately corruption seems to rule all the way to the top

The village headman has some VERY interesting connections to certain powerful southern politicians. One in particular but I will not say whom because I doubt the post will stay up long. But it is all perfectly believable in LOS. Money rules all.

Edited December 27, 2015 by mrrizzla

[Tom Cahill]

Look, the Millar family have every right to say what they did, most of us may not agree with their opinion but they are entitled to have one. They have no more information than anyone here, but it must be understood that they are just an ordinary family, they are not lawyers or police, they have no experience of such things as courts - police procedures - evidence - DNA etc, they listened to and believed what they were told by Thai police and prosecutors, it is easy to see how they would accept that without question - that is what they are used to in the UK - police actually trying to solve a crime and put the right people in jail with no agenda other than pride and a sense of achievement , perhaps in time they may see the folly but for now it is what it is.

However what is rather disgusting is how the Thai authorities have used their statement to somehow endorse this verdict in the media, well the Millar family believe so it must be true, this is total nonsense and quite frankly disgraceful

The Millar family were told the DNA was a match, I would also have believed if the Thai police could have produced the evidence (original samples) and they stood up to verification and retest, but they could not do that, what's even worse is that these samples would have been plentiful and yet they claim they were used up, sorry but that is total nonsense, there should be numerous samples available taken at the crime scene and autopsy, these samples would have been huge in DNA terms, - The court stated they based their conviction on this DNA match, in the west this evidence would not have been allowed for various reasons but primarily because the evidence could not be produced to the court.

The prosecution did offer the defence samples of "processed" DNA that they claim was from the victim, this was turned down simply because there was no way to prove where these "already processed" samples originated - they could simply have been from the accused saliva - what would be the point of retesting such a sample - it would not verify or prove anything

We also have a UK coroner report stating that there was no evidence of a rape on Hannah's body, this is significant because it does two things.

1. The motive for these murders was not rape

2. The claim of DNA in Hannah's body (sperm from the accused) did not exist

Also the fact that the victims clothes were not examined for DNA - the sort of evidence that could be verified if claimed

Two phones were found, one at the crime scene and another at the residence of the accused, the phone found at the crime scene was displayed several times on TV footage, the police have never confirmed who owned this phone, at first they believed it belonged to Hannah but then retracted that when a friend produced Hannah's phone, then they find a phone at the residence of the accused and suddenly claim this was David's phone and ask the family the verify an EMEI number of "A" phone - what happened the other phone ?

Then we have the crime scene and the placement of the Hoe, how did Mon know that the Hoe was moved ? - who had it ? and why he told the gardener to return it to a specific location.

The injuries on David's body which should be revealed in the UK autopsy report once released - several small deep cuts about the size of a "shark tooth" on various locations, how did they happen ? as yet unexplained

As we all know there is more - a lot more, but these are key points for me

I would also say that the defence team did not do enough, putting the accused on the stand was a waste of 2 days, the fact that their forensic expert was not allowed to take the stand was also shocking to say the least but then at that point the prosecution had not submitted anything so in reality there was no evidence to cross examine - that very same "no evidence" the court based their convicted on

[bunglebag]

One thing that has become obvious from this case and trial is that the hope that *insert name here* was different and would try to clean up the corruption rife through the country was a forlorn one. Based on what's happened so far it would seem he is not really much better than the rest.

[iReason]

Mon front row in the crime scene. @10 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaiAXSuvW9g

Mon stepping over Police barrier to enter a closed crime scene:

[jucel]

A senior police official was just on Sorayuth Suthassanachinda's evening news show on Channel 3 and he explained exactly how they found David Miller's phone. He said they knew quickly that it was missing from his body from information gained from David's friends and relatives, but this was not made public. Later, after the two suspects were detained and they confessed to the crime, police asked about the phone. One of the suspects said he had left it with a friend and when the friend was questioned he led them to the phone. He had become suspicious of the origin of the phone and he threw it away behind his living quarters. Hannah'' phone, had earlier been returned to her relatives, the officer said.

Now the Myanmar Army Chief has asked for another review by Thailand as the anger increases over this deplorable decision. Only you and a few of your shills who are being paid to bait are in denial.

[jucel]

I bet the headman's bank is diminishing on a daily basis

[AleG]

Going to take another tack here, so that some sort of focus can be brought to bear on a very important aspect that seems to have escaped the attention of some folk.

Let's agree to forget the following established points: –

– That the crime scene was contaminated; easy to see even by the uninitiated, and certainly backed up by Dr Pornthip and others with experience in this field.

– That important CCTV footage has gone missing (e.g. from the pier).

– That the actual DNA evidence presented in relation to semen being found in the poor girl's body was not viable evidence at all, with no chain of custody recorded, but was simply a piece of paper (with many alterations on it including incorrect dates) saying that it matched (much information on this and it is easy to understand).

– That the hoe photographed at the scene of the crime and supposedly shortly after, was not the one presented in court (there are photographs to prove this as the one photographed at the crime scene and supposedly used in the crime had a large piece missing from the top right-hand corner, whereas the one produced in court did not).

– That whichever hoe was tested, the DNA of the B2 was not shown to be present.

– That photographs of the back of David’s head showed there to be around eight small "stab like" wounds and nothing else.

The last point brings into focus something which is truly astounding, and that is that the judge(s) found that David was killed by the hoe! This when there was absolutely no correlation whatsoever between the small stab wounds and the hoe blade, yet exactly what that hoe blade could do was clearly seen in relation to poor Hannah.

This and this alone should cast grave doubts on the verdict, let alone the points I have listed above, and there are still many more which could be brought into the picture, which would surely show this to be an absolute travesty of justice, even by those who are trying to support the verdict.

The supporters can go on all they like about the B2 returning to the beach for this reason or that reason, and finding a phone, yet still overlook the most important points, some of which are highlighted above, which is quite amazing and will surely be the reason I will make this my last post, because where such folk are concerned, their inability to see past that which they want to believe has closed their eyes and minds to the strongest aspects of the case.

Your established points are nothing that inbred misinformation. that CCTV footage is missing, the hoe being different, no DNA chain of custody, every single thing a malformed "fact" at the end of a chain of Chinese Whispers.

No wonder the people that believe such things are confused about the outcome of the trial.

[jucel]

Going to take another tack here, so that some sort of focus can be brought to bear on a very important aspect that seems to have escaped the attention of some folk.

Let's agree to forget the following established points: –

– That the crime scene was contaminated; easy to see even by the uninitiated, and certainly backed up by Dr Pornthip and others with experience in this field.

– That important CCTV footage has gone missing (e.g. from the pier).

– That the actual DNA evidence presented in relation to semen being found in the poor girl's body was not viable evidence at all, with no chain of custody recorded, but was simply a piece of paper (with many alterations on it including incorrect dates) saying that it matched (much information on this and it is easy to understand).

– That the hoe photographed at the scene of the crime and supposedly shortly after, was not the one presented in court (there are photographs to prove this as the one photographed at the crime scene and supposedly used in the crime had a large piece missing from the top right-hand corner, whereas the one produced in court did not).

– That whichever hoe was tested, the DNA of the B2 was not shown to be present.

– That photographs of the back of David’s head showed there to be around eight small "stab like" wounds and nothing else.

The last point brings into focus something which is truly astounding, and that is that the judge(s) found that David was killed by the hoe! This when there was absolutely no correlation whatsoever between the small stab wounds and the hoe blade, yet exactly what that hoe blade could do was clearly seen in relation to poor Hannah.

This and this alone should cast grave doubts on the verdict, let alone the points I have listed above, and there are still many more which could be brought into the picture, which would surely show this to be an absolute travesty of justice, even by those who are trying to support the verdict.

The supporters can go on all they like about the B2 returning to the beach for this reason or that reason, and finding a phone, yet still overlook the most important points, some of which are highlighted above, which is quite amazing and will surely be the reason I will make this my last post, because where such folk are concerned, their inability to see past that which they want to believe has closed their eyes and minds to the strongest aspects of the case.

Your established points are nothing that inbred misinformation. that CCTV footage is missing, the hoe being different, no DNA chain of custody, every single thing a malformed "fact" at the end of a chain of Chinese Whispers.

No wonder the people that believe such things are confused about the outcome of the trial.

Well you have misinformed, lied and baited for the last year or so. How you are still allowed to post is beyond me.

[docshock13]

Mon front row in the crime scene. @10 seconds.

Mon stepping over Police barrier to enter a closed crime scene:

Uncle Fixit dispatched to the crime scene without delay. Who sent him and why? What was his business there? Curious onlooker? Concerned citizen? Forensics expert? So many other questions that will likely go unanswered.

[bunglebag]

Mon front row in the crime scene. @10 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaiAXSuvW9g

Mon stepping over Police barrier to enter a closed crime scene:

Yes, despite not being a policeman Mon is all over this, allowed to go wherever he wants and oh dear he's helping to contaminate the scene.

But wait, didn't the policeman testify in court that he found the clothes all neatly stacked up, yet here they are scattered all over the place, and after the police have cordoned off the area. Someone's telling big fat porkies.

For one reason or another the judge only ever had one option open to him for a verdict I feel, regardless of the most farcical prosecution ever witnessed. I would wager it was driven be fear rather than money.

[jucel]

Mon front row in the crime scene. @10 seconds.

Mon stepping over Police barrier to enter a closed crime scene:

Uncle Fixit dispatched to the crime scene without delay. Who sent him and why? What was his business there? Curious onlooker? Concerned citizen? Forensics expert? So many other questions that will likely go unanswered.

There is actual footage of Mon consoling Nom Sod's father in one video on the morning of the murders. I can't find it but I 100% saw it when it was aired. Make no mistakes

[Tatsujin]

Reading through the last 10 pages of this thread, I really have to question the motives of some of the posters ... what/whose business interests are you trying to protect exactly? The same ones as the RTP?

[AleG]

Your established points are nothing that inbred misinformation. that CCTV footage is missing, the hoe being different, no DNA chain of custody, every single thing a malformed "fact" at the end of a chain of Chinese Whispers.

No wonder the people that believe such things are confused about the outcome of the trial.

Well you have misinformed, lied and baited for the last year or so. How you are still allowed to post is beyond me.

Nobody is stopping you from pointing out, specifically, were I have lied or misinformed people regarding this subject; I stand by every thing I have said.

I only know you from your last few posts, were you have accused another person of being a paid shill. Since you are so principled about people posting misinformation, lies and baiting I'm sure you can substantiate that serious accusation, can you?

[jucel]

Your established points are nothing that inbred misinformation. that CCTV footage is missing, the hoe being different, no DNA chain of custody, every single thing a malformed "fact" at the end of a chain of Chinese Whispers.

No wonder the people that believe such things are confused about the outcome of the trial.

Well you have misinformed, lied and baited for the last year or so. How you are still allowed to post is beyond me.

Nobody is stopping you from pointing out, specifically, were I have lied or misinformed people regarding this subject; I stand by every thing I have said.

I only know you from your last few posts, were you have accused another person of being a paid shill. Since you are so principled about people posting misinformation, lies and baiting I'm sure you can substantiate that serious accusation, can you?

Yes I can

[balo]

When you look at other crime scenes in Thailand , I am not surprised that Mon was able to walk around , after all he is the bar owner on that beach and he knew the police , everyone know eachother in a small community like this. The question remains if he did it on purpose to get rid of evidence if he was involved or was just a curious guy as most Thais would be when someone dies here.

[bunglebag]

Reading through the last 10 pages of this thread, I really have to question the motives of some of the posters ... what/whose business interests are you trying to protect exactly? The same ones as the RTP?

imo some, including Westerners, are protecting their own businesses and lifestyles on the island as well as gaining favour protecting the true killers as they have no morals and are happy to be shills and subservient to cold blooded killers, money could be changing hands - may even think they're pals but they'd be thrown under the bus before you could say boo to a goose if any situation ever required it. Some others outside of the island possibly paid shills or have links to RTP etc. and finally there's probably a few trolls who just enjoy winding folk up.

Edited December 27, 2015 by bunglebag

[Islandlife]

Reading through the last 10 pages of this thread, I really have to question the motives of some of the posters ... what/whose business interests are you trying to protect exactly? The same ones as the RTP?

imo some, including Westerners, are protecting their own businesses and lifestyles on the island as well as protecting the true killers as they have no morals and are happy to be shills and subservient to cold blooded killers, money could be changing hands - may even think they're pals but they'd be thrown under the bus before you could say boo to a goose if any situation ever required it. Some others outside of the island possibly paid shills or have links to RTP etc. and finally there's probably a few trolls who just enjoy winding folk up.

Just wow . [emoji17]