UK Benefits Farce.

[nontabury]

Expat Brits living in Thailand express outrage over foreigners going to live in the UK.

555

The difference is: Expats in Thailand pay their way,there is no Benefits in Thailand for Expats!

Provide the evidence that foreigners in the UK do not pay their own way?!

You seem to be saying that Foreigners living in the UK pay their own way and do not claim Benefits, as is the case with Expats in Thailand??? which was my point!

We can prove easily that Expats do not claim Benefits from Thailand because there are none available!

Unless the expat is using the Thai government health service or sending his/her children to Thai government schools.

If a Farang is using the Thai health service, surely they have to pay for it?

I personally do not know of any Farangs who send their Farang children to a Thai state school. Not saying it does't happen,but if so few. Even most children from a Thai/Farang relationship, attend either a fee paying private school or an international school. And looking at the number of Thai children who are educated at the expense of their Farang step father, leads me to think that Thailand is by far the gainer.

[jpinx]

Unless the expat is working in Thailand and paying Thai taxes.

Just like the vast majority of immigrants in the UK who work and pay taxes. (But unlkke ghe vast majority of expats in Thailand)

What "vast majority"? Quote your references -- idle speculation does not constitute "fact". Where do you get the figures for immigrants in UK who pay taxes, and expats in Thailand who use Thai "benefits" but don't pay Thai Taxes?

Edited December 31, 2015 by jpinx

[GuestHouse]

Let's start with some research from UCL .... Rather than the rabbid rantings of hypocritical expat xenophobes.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institute/highlights/2013-14/immigration

[jpinx]

Let's start with some research from UCL .... Rather than the rabbid rantings of hypocritical expat xenophobes.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institute/highlights/2013-14/immigration

Why should we take the figures conjured up by the socialist UCL?

Where is your reference for the numbers conjectured for expats in Thailand?

Keep it civil and non-personal, or lose the point. No-one is behaving in a rabid way.

There's nothing hypocritical in requiring the source of purported facts.

"expat xenophobes" is a misnomer, since to be a xenophobe one needs to live in the country one is trying to keep everyone else out of.

[AyG]

Let's start with some research from UCL .... Rather than the rabbid rantings of hypocritical expat xenophobes.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institute/highlights/2013-14/immigration

That paper only covers immigrants from the European Economic Area - not the large numbers of immigrants from the Indian subcontinent and northern Africa who are typically very poorly educated, lack employable skills, and are highly dependent upon state handouts.

[chiang mai]

Expat Brits living in Thailand express outrage over foreigners going to live in the UK.

555

The difference is: Expats in Thailand pay their way,there is no Benefits in Thailand for Expats!

Provide the evidence that foreigners in the UK do not pay their own way?!

You seem to be saying that Foreigners living in the UK pay their own way and do not claim Benefits, as is the case with Expats in Thailand??? which was my point!

We can prove easily that Expats do not claim Benefits from Thailand because there are none available!

Unless the expat is using the Thai government health service or sending his/her children to Thai government schools.

L

I know many many Europeans ,Brits and Americans living here,not one used the Thai 30 baht scheme,and all either do or have sent their children to private schools ,however if they are married to an Ethnic Thai person and their child was born here why should they not ,they have intermarried and assimilated,how many Muslims in the west do that , pass me a postage stamp and I will start a list

There was a thread recently where several posters said they were using the government health system in Petchabun Province, all they had to do was to produce their yellow tabien bahn and they were treated for free - at first I didn't believe it but others came along and said they were doing the same thing, I sense there may be others doing similar in different provinces. Another aspect of this is the number of farangs who receive treatment and cannot pay, all of which stresses the system and made headlines nationally quite recently. I personally know of a Belgian in Phuket who avoided payment on a 350k hospital bill and then left the country.

So whilst those examples are not exactly benefits it's clear that many expats who live here think they can and will benefit from the Thai system whilst not being eligible. On the subject of eligibility, many farang expats are still convinced they have a right to benefits they used to have in their home country, the NHS in particular, at the heart of this is the fact they paid NI contributions for many years and many feel this gives them the right to all manner of things in the UK whereas in reality it does not. for example. " Stop worrying ,do you honestly think the NHS or any other dept is watching to see where pensioners go ? they will look only if they are looking for you ,i know someone who lives near me who is at this moment having an operation on the NHS ,rather than pay here ,he paid in all his life so good for him". http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/813369-uk-expats-liable-for-cost-of-nhs-treatment/page-4#entry9473286

So which is the better way, to live in a country and legally use the benefits you are entitled to, the ones offered and managed by government or to live in another country and continue to use benefits to which you're no longer entitled? I think the answer to that is an individual and personal one but what I know for sure is this, UK expats living in Thailand and using any part of the UK benefits systems are in no position to whine and moan about Muslims or any other group of people who are UK resident and use those benefits legally, even if they use all of them!

[Liquorice]

Let's start with some research from UCL .... Rather than the rabbid rantings of hypocritical expat xenophobes.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institute/highlights/2013-14/immigration

That paper only covers immigrants from the European Economic Area - not the large numbers of immigrants from the Indian subcontinent and northern Africa who are typically very poorly educated, lack employable skills, and are highly dependent upon state handouts.

The fact is Europeans are largely Migrants who come to the UK looking for work and are entitled to benefits under EU laws.

Outside of Europe, overseas Immigrants who move to the UK have 'no recourse to public funds'.

Although they are often wrongly blamed for the demise of the NHS and the Benefits system, they in fact are not the problem.

Overseas Immigrants have to jump through hoops to live in the UK.

For a Thai wife, it would be a 5 year route to get indefinite leave to remain in the UK. You as the sponsor must meet financial requirements and your wife must meet the English language requirements. She isn't entitled to any benefits.

To many judge by the colour of skin and immediately class them as Immigrants when in fact most Asian, African, Chinese ethnicities were actually born in the UK and are just as much a British citizen as you and I.

I'm guessing 'white' British are actually the biggest Benefit claimers, in percentage of ethnic ratios.

Asylum seekers and Refugees cost the British taxpayer a fortune. They are not entitled to Benefits as such, so the true cost is conveniently hidden from public view and isn't reflected in Benefit payment statistics. The cost is regarded as Humanitarian Aid and paid for through the Social Services budget.

[chiang mai]

It's worth pointing out that the Thai spouse of a UK citizen who is subject to a settlement visa is also required to buy an insurance policy from government which costs GBP 200 per year, that allows the spouse complete access to all NHS facilities, there is therefore no financial burden placed on the NHS by such people.

It's worth pointing out here that visiting/returning UK expats who are non-UK resident are not allowed the same luxury and must pay 150% of the cost of any NHS services that they use and I think this is the crime of the century.

[i claudius]

Unless the expat is working in Thailand and paying Thai taxes.

Just like the vast majority of immigrants in the UK who work and pay taxes. (But unlkke ghe vast majority of expats in Thailand)

What "vast majority"? Quote your references -- idle speculation does not constitute "fact". Where do you get the figures for immigrants in UK who pay taxes, and expats in Thailand who use Thai "benefits" but don't pay Thai Taxes?

I have given up ,there are none so blind as those who do not want to see for a start,the amount of non Thai people living here is tiny compared to the immigration into the west,many of us have married Thai women, unlike immigrants to the west who by and large marry their own people , we have integrated ,but those on here who champion the cause of the Muslims etc ,will always shout as do those on the left in the UK they just go on and on unroll they get their way

[chiang mai]

According to Wiki, UK foreign born population is around 7.9 million whereas Thailand has 3.7 million, the former is likely to be accurate, the latter is likely to be very understated - not exactly "tiny".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population

[nontabury]

Let's start with some research from UCL .... Rather than the rabbid rantings of hypocritical expat xenophobes.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institute/highlights/2013-14/immigration

Re-read post 41 on this thread. Do you consider the Muslim council of Britain to be the rantings of hypocritical expat xenophobes?

Personally I don't give a dam about the religion or colour of a reciperant of health service or benefits. What I do feel very strongly is, have those people paid into the system, or are they just sponges, and this applies equally to native white,so called Christian Brits.

You keep implying that we ex-pats are in receipt of some sort of Thai welfare, well if so,I am completely unaware of any. Unlike you Guesthouse I am not in employment here in Thailand therefore I do not pay Thai income tax ( the same as the Vast majority of Thais) yet the money I bring into Thailand every month is to the Benefit of the Thai economy.

In short Thailand gains from the presence of Farangs here in Thailand in so many different ways,unfortunately I cannot say the same regarding the UK and the benefits of having unrestricted boarders for so many non productive people.

[MaeJoMTB]

According to Wiki, UK foreign born population is around 7.9 million whereas Thailand has 3.7 million, the former is likely to be accurate, the latter is likely to be very understated - not exactly "tiny".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population

Most of the 3.7M in Thailand will be Burmese/Cambodian/Indonesian. Generally indistinguishable from the Thai population.

Whereas the 7.9M in the UK will be from totally different cultures and religions.

[nontabury]

According to Wiki, UK foreign born population is around 7.9 million whereas Thailand has 3.7 million, the former is likely to be accurate, the latter is likely to be very understated - not exactly "tiny".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population

Maybe you're misreading the quoted figures. There are estimates of far greater numbers of illegal immigrants now living in the UK. Even the UK boarder force admit to not knowing the full numbers.

For Thailand the figure of 3.7 million foreigners, includes the vast majority of other Asians, Cambodians,Burmese etc who are working here ( many exploited ) who certainly will not be entitled to any Thai state benifits.

Perhaps you can provide a reference to the amount of Thai benefits received by Farang expats,the majority of whom report to immigration on a regular basis.

Me thinks Thailand have got it right,certainly not the UK.

[Ace of Pop]

Portugal had a few colonies one time but unlike the stupid Brits we don't do handouts to Alina's and very little for our own

[loppylugs1]

According to Wiki, UK foreign born population is around 7.9 million whereas Thailand has 3.7 million, the former is likely to be accurate, the latter is likely to be very understated - not exactly "tiny".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population

Maybe you're misreading the quoted figures. There are estimates of far greater numbers of illegal immigrants now living in the UK. Even the UK boarder force admit to not knowing the full numbers.

For Thailand the figure of 3.7 million foreigners, includes the vast majority of other Asians, Cambodians,Burmese etc who are working here ( many exploited ) who certainly will not be entitled to any Thai state benifits.

Perhaps you can provide a reference to the amount of Thai benefits received by Farang expats,the majority of whom report to immigration on a regular basis.

Me thinks Thailand have got it right,certainly not the UK.

What is needed are ID cards,population of UK halved overnight.

Knight in shining armour comes forth IDS with Universal Credit, the households the OP opened with are in for the shock of their lives,Bradford here I (don't ) come,mass rioting at receiving sod all

Like to know where the baroness flather FoI statement went,was easily accessible a couple of years ago ,now nothing

[chiang mai]

According to Wiki, UK foreign born population is around 7.9 million whereas Thailand has 3.7 million, the former is likely to be accurate, the latter is likely to be very understated - not exactly "tiny".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population

Most of the 3.7M in Thailand will be Burmese/Cambodian/Indonesian. Generally indistinguishable from the Thai population.

Whereas the 7.9M in the UK will be from totally different cultures and religions.

I agree, the objective of my post was to confirm that the number of non Thai residents is not tiny, that's all, my guess is that the real number is probably double that.

[jpinx]

According to Wiki, UK foreign born population is around 7.9 million whereas Thailand has 3.7 million, the former is likely to be accurate, the latter is likely to be very understated - not exactly "tiny".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population

Most of the 3.7M in Thailand will be Burmese/Cambodian/Indonesian. Generally indistinguishable from the Thai population.

Whereas the 7.9M in the UK will be from totally different cultures and religions.

I agree, the objective of my post was to confirm that the number of non Thai residents is not tiny, that's all, my guess is that the real number is probably double that.

What's that got to do with the benefit scammers in UK?

[chiang mai]

According to Wiki, UK foreign born population is around 7.9 million whereas Thailand has 3.7 million, the former is likely to be accurate, the latter is likely to be very understated - not exactly "tiny".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population

Most of the 3.7M in Thailand will be Burmese/Cambodian/Indonesian. Generally indistinguishable from the Thai population.

Whereas the 7.9M in the UK will be from totally different cultures and religions.

I agree, the objective of my post was to confirm that the number of non Thai residents is not tiny, that's all, my guess is that the real number is probably double that.

What's that got to do with the benefit scammers in UK?

A poster tried to make the comparison between the resident non-national population of both countries and stated that the Thai non-resident number was tiny, the attempted argument being that the higher volume of non-nationals was the reason for the higher level of benefit fraud in the UK - my post simply corrected the idea that the number of non-national residents in Thailand was very small.

Could you not read the earlier posts or what!

[GuestHouse]

Post 41 revisited.

It seems eminently believable to me, given that only 19.8% of Moslems in the UK are in full time employment. The source is the Muslim Council of Britain, so pretty reliable, I would think.

http://www.mcb.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/MCBCensusReport_2015.pdf

Elsewhere we learn thanks to Wikileaks that 31% of working-age Moslem men were economically inactive, as were 69% of working-age Moslem women.

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8304838/UK-MUSLIM-DEMOGRAPHICS-C-RE8-02527.html

Clearly a large proportion of Moslems in the UK is being subsidised by government handouts.

Let's get some real data:

From the 2011 census results UK office of National Statistics

Data Table for Figure 6 Relgion and economic activity, England and Wales , 2011 Percentages Other religion Sikh Muslim Jewish Hindu Buddhist Christian No religion Economically active 68 69 55 61 70 67 60 74 Economically inactive 32 31 45 39 30 33 40 26 Source: Census 2011, Office for National Statistics

So the Muslims are 55/45% economically active and Christians are 60/40% economically active.

But of course believe the data that supports your own bias, no matter where it comes from.

[jpinx]

So there is some data, but it doesn't address the issue at hand - how to stop the serious scamming of the UK benefits system. The whole system of benefits is open to abuse and needs replacing by the flat rate per head. The problem these days is that all the benefits systems are incredibly complicated and can only be understood by people who have the time to immerse themselves in the finest details of the regulations. Look at the unholy mess of rules governing the pension system alone. No amount of debating the breakdown of populations by race, employment, gender, etc, is going to change anything. If the system is not available to abuse, the population will adjust itself.

[GuestHouse]

So there is some data, but it doesn't address the issue at hand - how to stop the serious scamming of the UK benefits system. The whole system of benefits is open to abuse and needs replacing by the flat rate per head. The problem these days is that all the benefits systems are incredibly complicated and can only be understood by people who have the time to immerse themselves in the finest details of the regulations. Look at the unholy mess of rules governing the pension system alone. No amount of debating the breakdown of populations by race, employment, gender, etc, is going to change anything. If the system is not available to abuse, the population will adjust itself.

I agree entirely, and in that respect the focus of so many in this discussion on Muslims is a detraction.

The single biggest recipient of welfare handouts UK Business.

Welfare has been used to subsidise low wages to the point that employees cannot maintain themselves on the low wages being paid.

The argument given by the UK Business is that if they are forced to pay living wages then they would move their business and jobs overseas. Except of course the businesses paying low wages are predominantly in the direct service sector.

So UK Business is banking fat profits, dodging taxes, dodging NI contributions and having its payroll subsidised by welfare support.

But let's rant against Muslims.

[chiang mai]

So there is some data, but it doesn't address the issue at hand - how to stop the serious scamming of the UK benefits system. The whole system of benefits is open to abuse and needs replacing by the flat rate per head. The problem these days is that all the benefits systems are incredibly complicated and can only be understood by people who have the time to immerse themselves in the finest details of the regulations. Look at the unholy mess of rules governing the pension system alone. No amount of debating the breakdown of populations by race, employment, gender, etc, is going to change anything. If the system is not available to abuse, the population will adjust itself.

And I also can agree entirely with what you wrote.

[MaeJoMTB]

Unless the expat is working in Thailand and paying Thai taxes.

Just like the vast majority of immigrants in the UK who work and pay taxes. (But unlkke ghe vast majority of expats in Thailand)

Out of the 70M adult Thais, only 4M pay income tax.

So the vast majority of everyone don't pay income tax in Thailand.

On the other hand, everyone pays VAT and import tax.

[huawei]

Unless the expat is working in Thailand and paying Thai taxes.

Just like the vast majority of immigrants in the UK who work and pay taxes. (But unlkke ghe vast majority of expats in Thailand)

Out of the 70M adult Thais, only 4M pay income tax.

So the vast majority of everyone don't pay income tax in Thailand.

On the other hand, everyone pays VAT and import tax.

70m adult Thais..are you sure. The population in total is about 70 million.

[chiang mai]

Population = 67 mill., 2014 estimate 84% over age 19 or 56 mill.

Edited January 1, 2016 by chiang mai

[jpinx]

So there is some data, but it doesn't address the issue at hand - how to stop the serious scamming of the UK benefits system. The whole system of benefits is open to abuse and needs replacing by the flat rate per head. The problem these days is that all the benefits systems are incredibly complicated and can only be understood by people who have the time to immerse themselves in the finest details of the regulations. Look at the unholy mess of rules governing the pension system alone. No amount of debating the breakdown of populations by race, employment, gender, etc, is going to change anything. If the system is not available to abuse, the population will adjust itself.

I agree entirely, and in that respect the focus of so many in this discussion on Muslims is a detraction.

The single biggest recipient of welfare handouts UK Business.

Welfare has been used to subsidise low wages to the point that employees cannot maintain themselves on the low wages being paid.

The argument given by the UK Business is that if they are forced to pay living wages then they would move their business and jobs overseas. Except of course the businesses paying low wages are predominantly in the direct service sector.

So UK Business is banking fat profits, dodging taxes, dodging NI contributions and having its payroll subsidised by welfare support.

But let's rant against Muslims.

The topic was really about the ridiculous way money is disbursed in an uneven way to people claiming housing, family, feeding or similar problems of an personal nature.

It is going to be very interesting to see how Finland fares with a flat rate payment.

[nontabury]

Post 41 revisited.

It seems eminently believable to me, given that only 19.8% of Moslems in the UK are in full time employment. The source is the Muslim Council of Britain, so pretty reliable, I would think.

http://www.mcb.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/MCBCensusReport_2015.pdf

Elsewhere we learn thanks to Wikileaks that 31% of working-age Moslem men were economically inactive, as were 69% of working-age Moslem women.

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8304838/UK-MUSLIM-DEMOGRAPHICS-C-RE8-02527.html

Clearly a large proportion of Moslems in the UK is being subsidised by government handouts.

Let's get some real data:

From the 2011 census results UK office of National Statistics

Data Table for Figure 6 Relgion and economic activity, England and Wales , 2011 Percentages Other religion Sikh Muslim Jewish Hindu Buddhist Christian No religion Economically active 68 69 55 61 70 67 60 74 Economically inactive 32 31 45 39 30 33 40 26 Source: Census 2011, Office for National Statistics

So the Muslims are 55/45% economically active and Christians are 60/40% economically active.

But of course believe the data that supports your own bias, no matter where it comes from.

This depend on you accepting figures that are voluntarily given to the census.

You can fill in the form and enter whatever you like,there is no checking as far as I'm aware of. The same applies to omitting true full information from the form.I am aware of instances where only a few adults where recorded at one address, yet later it became knowledge that there were in fact far more people residing at that property,including people who were claiming benifits.

[nontabury]

There are no benefit cheats in the UK

[jpinx]

Post 41 revisited.

It seems eminently believable to me, given that only 19.8% of Moslems in the UK are in full time employment. The source is the Muslim Council of Britain, so pretty reliable, I would think.

http://www.mcb.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/MCBCensusReport_2015.pdf

Elsewhere we learn thanks to Wikileaks that 31% of working-age Moslem men were economically inactive, as were 69% of working-age Moslem women.

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8304838/UK-MUSLIM-DEMOGRAPHICS-C-RE8-02527.html

Clearly a large proportion of Moslems in the UK is being subsidised by government handouts.

Let's get some real data:

From the 2011 census results UK office of National Statistics

Data Table for Figure 6 Relgion and economic activity, England and Wales , 2011 Percentages Other religion Sikh Muslim Jewish Hindu Buddhist Christian No religion Economically active 68 69 55 61 70 67 60 74 Economically inactive 32 31 45 39 30 33 40 26 Source: Census 2011, Office for National Statistics

So the Muslims are 55/45% economically active and Christians are 60/40% economically active.

But of course believe the data that supports your own bias, no matter where it comes from.

This depend on you accepting figures that are voluntarily given to the census.

You can fill in the form and enter whatever you like,there is no checking as far as I'm aware of. The same applies to omitting true full information from the form.I am aware of instances where only a few adults where recorded at one address, yet later it became knowledge that there were in fact far more people residing at that property,including people who were claiming benifits.

Most censuses (censii?) are based on voluntary submissions, it's one of the biggest problems of getting real data for analysis. They do some sample checking, but nothing like enough especially in ghettos where there is a huge vested interest in obfuscation.

[loppylugs1]

Why the universal credits is taking so long to roll out is amazing,but 2020 is noted for completion day ,just unrolling it piece meal at the moment.

The ghetto structures,cram dozens under one roof are in for a particularly bad time,that one roof ,one address is limited to £23000 inc housing benefit,probably being reduced further,a lot of disquiet will follow, no job? tough