Koh Tao debacle: Shoddy work from beginning to end

[z42]

I don't know why greenchair thinks the B2 story is so far fetched. If this person had cared to read some of the earlier explanations given by the B2 before the trial kicked off then they would probably find their account easier to understand.

They played guitar on the beach until at least 1am. Yes.

They smoked some cigarettes and threw the ends onto the beach near to where they played guitar.

They had some items of clothing moved supposedly while they were in the water (by whom not sure, but not beyond realms of possibility)

They walked back home on the beach minus their shoes (possible, easier to walk on a beach without them, or even think to put them on if they're only flip flops)

They were drunk (if they were drinking a bottle of wine between 3 people probably likely)

They went to sleep tipsy / drunk not really thinking too seriously they might have left stuff of theirs on the beach.

They wake up more sober than when they arrived home, and think it's probably a good idea to have a look on the beach for the items they left / forgot as they are unlikely to have been moved due to few people being on the beach during night time hours. Items such as flip flops are quite pricey for Burmese earning 200-330 baht a day tops, so I guess they will take a little walk to check and see if they are still lying around.

On the way to retrieve shoes, wei phyo finds a phone on the beach. Picks it up and takes it with him. I don't condone this but it certainly doesn't mean he has stolen it.

He tries to get the phone working, but is unable to do it so decides to destroy it.

For the judge to be so dismissive about any of this stuff shows a lack of sincerity, common sense, or an agenda. I personally sense all 3, the third being most prevalent.

While this is not proof, it is certainly as plausible as going from normal guitar playing people having a laugh to psychotic, homicidal, rapists / necrophiliacs in the space of minutes. And ask any criminologist, people don't rape for sexual pleasure, they do because of a lust for power and control, and would almost certainly not come equipped with condoms

[scorecard]

stephenterry, on 24 Jan 2016 - 10:25, said:

I think at least one of the b2 is implicated in the crimes, and that is enough for the Rtp to convince the Miller family. However I don't think any of the b2 committed the crimes. Had that been the case the Rtp would not have lost or used up the DNA evidence, nor the hair and Hannah's clothes. That tells me that there are other killers that have not been apprehended because the main official priority was to close the case asap to protect tourism. If persons of interest were involved it wouldn't have been closed in my lifetime.

The only thing that convinced the Millers was the phone. I wonder what the outcome of the trial would have been if Wei Phyo had not found (sorry, taken) that phone?

Seems to me - 'they had the phone therefore they are instantly guilty of 2 murders'.

Hopefully none of us would be convicted of anything let alone murder on such grounds.

[greenchair]

Island, do you have the old map showing ac bar, AC2 and Maya beach bar

[greenchair]

So, they were just walking along in the rain and decided to jump in the sea with their clothes on.

Perfectly normal thing to do ?

[jayjay78]

The strange case of the vanishing wine bottle. Here's one sure thing, if it contained the dna or fingerprints of the B2 it would have been in court as evidence. But as it is, this bottle has never been seen or heard of again and disappeared from all other crime scene photos. Strange that eh, someone took it away pretty rapidly, now who were the first people on the scene. Seems to come back to Mon again

[greenchair]

JayJay how can you make the jump from there is a wine bottle in some photos and then not mentioned / to mon must have taken it and hidden it is mind boggling.

To me more to the point is, it just implicates the b2 as having been at the scene once again. I remember the days when we all thought the b2 only drank 1 bottle of beer between them. Therefore the pancake man must be lying about a wine bottle that did not exist. Then we find out that yes indeedy, the b2 did buy wine. And where does that wine bottle turn up? ??right near the bodies.

Go on say it. Mon planted it there for the picture, then changed his mind and hid it to cover up for the B2 that of course were nowhere near the crime.

[Khun Han]

The strange case of the vanishing wine bottle. Here's one sure thing, if it contained the dna or fingerprints of the B2 it would have been in court as evidence. But as it is, this bottle has never been seen or heard of again and disappeared from all other crime scene photos. Strange that eh, someone took it away pretty rapidly, now who were the first people on the scene. Seems to come back to Mon again

An odd thing, jayjay, is that it appears to be sitting on wet sand. What are the chances of it being in that location throughout the flowing and ebbing tide cycle that we know occured?

[rockingrobin]

So, they were just walking along in the rain and decided to jump in the sea with their clothes on.

Perfectly normal thing to do ?

GC

What evidence is their to actually disprove their account.

As for normal behaviour , is it normal to commit a double murder , steal one of the victims phone and then just give it away

[iReason]

“Deputy national police chief General Somyot Pumpunmuang is now flying down to personally inspect the crime scene and speak to investigators.”

"We will ask the FBI to help identify the DNA in the semen we found – whether it belonged to an Asian or European," the Nation newspaper quoted him as saying.”

Whatever happened about that?

"Residents of normally quiet Koh Tao have donated to a reward fund for tip-offs that might help solve the murders."

Whatever happened to the 700,000 Baht that was donated?

Curiously, that was the same amount allegedly used to bribe a local Taxi driver to lie for the "police".

Who also claims he was beaten and fears for his life because he turned it down.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/20/thai-police-koh-tao-fbi-british-backpacker-murders

[greenchair]

So, they were just walking along in the rain and decided to jump in the sea with their clothes on.

Perfectly normal thing to do ?

GC

What evidence is their to actually disprove their account.

As for normal behaviour , is it normal to commit a double murder , steal one of the victims phone and then just give it away

I believe every word they said, except as aleg says they left out "and then we murdered them, and this is how it happened "

[jayjay78]

The strange case of the vanishing wine bottle. Here's one sure thing, if it contained the dna or fingerprints of the B2 it would have been in court as evidence. But as it is, this bottle has never been seen or heard of again and disappeared from all other crime scene photos. Strange that eh, someone took it away pretty rapidly, now who were the first people on the scene. Seems to come back to Mon again

An odd thing, jayjay, is that it appears to be sitting on wet sand. What are the chances of it being in that location throughout the flowing and ebbing tide cycle that we know occured?

Good point Khun Han

What it shows to me is clear evidence of crime scene manipulation, the bottle whether planted or in its original spot has vanished.

So we now have a bottle with no dna or fingerprints from the B2, a hoe and the clothes of David and Hannah lacking any forensic evidence to connect the B2.

Clothes and bottled not presented in court, bottle never heard of again and clothes never heard of again.

Now if that does not stink of a cover up then nothing does.

[rockingrobin]

So, they were just walking along in the rain and decided to jump in the sea with their clothes on.

Perfectly normal thing to do ?

GC

What evidence is their to actually disprove their account.

As for normal behaviour , is it normal to commit a double murder , steal one of the victims phone and then just give it away

I believe every word they said, except as aleg says they left out "and then we murdered them, and this is how it happened "

I am somewhat confused,

You claim their story is implausible , and now you believe every word they said with the exception this is how we did it

I can only conclude you cannot give any evidence to disprove their statements and thus are making it up as you go along

[somo]

So, they were just walking along in the rain and decided to jump in the sea with their clothes on.

Perfectly normal thing to do ?

Perfectly normal for young fun loving people in a hot climate yes.

I have done it myself before and similar crazy things as I am sure many others have. It's called having a good time in case you have never had one.

[Khun Han]

^ Yes Robin. These Koh Tao threads are hard enough to follow as it is, without the incessant, inane, 'goldfish' wittering from one particular poster .

[boomerangutang]

I would just be very interested to know what clothes the b2 wore back to their room?

What clothes were allegedly stolen.

What they allegedly went back for?

So far it is mm tshirt, the guitar.

Wp shoes.

And where did they leave these things? ?

To me, all this talk of clothes and a shoe (or shoe) and guitar is secondary at best. If anything, it indicates Zaw was not at the scene early morning when the crime took place. It may indicate MM was hanging around in the crime area (within 100 meters?) in the early morning. It signifies very little compared to other more important things, like......

>>> why did police not follow up with 3 islander fast boat operators, two of whom were too drugged to talk. One of them slept in a cave on the night of the murder (Monday) and when asked by police what he knew, could only say, "I didn't murder anyone!" or words to that effect.

>>> Why did police allow Mon to withhold potentially crucial CCTV. It may have included footage showing the B2 going home before the time of the crime. It may have included Nomsod and some of his tough-guy buddies who wear weaponized rings, and pose on FB coddling guns and toy hoes. The same sorts who have been reported for rape and date-rape (but the cops just laugh it off each time). The same sorts who islanders and visitors say deal drugs. Again, the cops laugh that stuff off.

I can hear it now from island cops: "Date-rape drugs, ha ha ha. Farang chicks wearing bikinis probably crave sex, with or without drugs, ha ha ha. They're lucky to score with some of our handsome brown boys. ha ha ha."

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts and replies have been removed. Keep it civil and on topic please.

[iReason]

"It quoted Pol Lt-Colonel Somsak Noorod, who led the original investigation, as saying that some of the original DNA samples had been "used up",

while the hair sample found in Witheridge's hand was among samples that was lost.”

"There's nothing left. It was all used up when we tested the first time," he was quoted as saying.

“Meanwhile, national police chief Pol General Somyot dismissed reports that the DNA evidence in the case could not be re-tested as some of it had either been "used up" or lost.”

These lead investigators seem to have gotten it all wrong in many instances.

Until Somyot came along and sorted it all out...

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Forensic-evidence-not-lost-police-chief-30264238.html

[greenchair]

Any day now, their lawyers are going to come out with

"Yes, they are guilty " but they are so young and sweet. We must forgive them and give them a new life. Wait for it.

[jayjay78]

Any day now, their lawyers are going to come out with

"Yes, they are guilty " but they are so young and sweet. We must forgive them and give them a new life. Wait for it.

Keep waiting sweetie, just published: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/content/148185

Lawyers Council to appeal Koh Tao suspects’ death sentence and seek their transfer to Bangkok

[007cableguy]

Any day now, their lawyers are going to come out with

"Yes, they are guilty " but they are so young and sweet. We must forgive them and give them a new life. Wait for it.

That would make your day Sweetie!! But sadly for you and your buddies not going to happen!!

[jimmybkk]

Oh please, where did you get that she wasn't raped and that the brits found no dna.

The brits have been very tight lipped. They had nothing that would of helped the b2.

I absolutely agree with you. The 1st defendant was at the beach playing guitar. He took a swim. Went back to his room and went to sleep. Apparently his dna mixed with another was in the victims second passage. But there was no supporting evidence and mixed dna is controversial.

I think they should have had separate lawyers and separate trials. If the 2nd defendant and Muang Muang story was the same, I would support them. But their story is quite different. I don't believe their lame explaination.

Hey, Greenchair - last year if I remember correctly you were going to go into production with tee-shirts that supported the innocence of the Burmese men. You were asking people on TV for design ideas - I take it you have shelved that idea?

It's a classic ploy that's been used in advertising campaigns for years.

Anyone remember Shirley, full-time housewife from Dagenham. Essex? As a mother of 2 young boys, Sam, 7 and Jacob, 9, Shirley understood the importance of using a top-quality washing powder, nothing but the best was good enough for Shirley which is why she used Brand X. So when a TV crew from Dazzle showed up at her door to ask Shirley if she'd like to try a box of the new and improved Dazzle she was having none of it - she was perfectly happy with her Brand X powder and had no intention of switching. Only when the folks from Dazzle offered to swap her old box of Brand X for 2 new boxes of Dazzle did Shirley reluctantly agree to give it a try. Fast forward a week and the Dazzle crew show up on Shirley's doorstep again with her old box of Brand X powder and ask her if she'd like to swap back. "No chance!" says Shirley, clutching a box of Dazzle firmly to her chest and promptly slamming the door in the faces of the TV crew who are left looking somewhat despondent and bemused, unsure quite what they should do with Shirley's old box of Brand X.

Now, Shirley didn't quite go so far as offering to produce Dazzle t-shirts, but I think you get the point...

Ad campaign basics: If choosing to use a "convert" in your ad campaign, it is essential to demonstrate the loyalty of the convert to their former brand to maximize the impact of their "conversion".

Ohho, I don't know about this Shirley mumbo jumbo. but I am glad you mentioned about the tshirt, because just the other day someone accused me of always being against the b2, when in fact, I even donated to their defense fund. I did waver for a short time, as berybert pointed out. But was firm in my belief after that. When I found out I was lied to by omission by the defense team, I saw red. Now I might make t shirts to campaign to keep them in there. That poor girl. Wouldn't upset me if they got some of their own medicine.

We shall have to take your word for it about donating to the defense fund, but if you did I salute you. Now, regarding those t-shirts that you're glad I mentioned - how far did you get with them exactly? You were in the B2's corner for at least a year (minus a short time of wavering). In all that time I'm guessing you must have finalized a design...? got some quotes from suppliers...? got a few samples made up...? That kind of thing. Would you mind posting some pics of what you accomplished? I mean, assuming you were genuine when you mentioned it originally, and weren't just paying lip service to the supporters of the B2 as an outward display of loyalty to "Brand X"...

The reason I ask is because you said that you might now make t-shirts in support of their conviction, and if for some bizarre reason I was to follow your lead and make a u-turn to fall into the pro-guilty camp then I would quite like to get one of the t-shirts and I would hate to get my hopes up if it turned out that what you were prone to posting complete nonsense on this forum and you never had any intention of making those t-shirts the first time round...

[IslandLover]

greenchair, on 26 Jan 2016 - 05:32, said:

Island, do you have the old map showing ac bar, AC2 and Maya beach bar

I've plenty of maps but I'm not going to post them here yet again. Google is your friend.

[berybert]

I would just be very interested to know what clothes the b2 wore back to their room?

What clothes were allegedly stolen.

What they allegedly went back for?

So far it is mm tshirt, the guitar.

Wp shoes.

And where did they leave these things? ?

I cant believe people still bother to answer you as there is no doubt you are a troll.

But just to prove how much of a troll I have to ask you a question. Why are you so obsessed with what the Burmese guys where wearing yet couldn't give a hoot about what happened to Hannah's clothes. Does the fact they might have the killers DNA on them mean they are of no consequence to you.

Troll away, oh and don't worry about the floors in the Burmese story. there was only one they lived in a bungalow.

[boomerangutang]

I would just be very interested to know what clothes the b2 wore back to their room?

What clothes were allegedly stolen.

What they allegedly went back for?

So far it is mm tshirt, the guitar.

Wp shoes.

And where did they leave these things? ?

I cant believe people still bother to answer you as there is no doubt you are a troll.

But just to prove how much of a troll I have to ask you a question. Why are you so obsessed with what the Burmese guys where wearing yet couldn't give a hoot about what happened to Hannah's clothes. Does the fact they might have the killers DNA on them mean they are of no consequence to you.

Troll away, oh and don't worry about the floors in the Burmese story. there was only one they lived in a bungalow.

Not only did RTP forensics lose Hannah's clothes and the hair (and only they know what else), they also didn't test the following:

>>> blood on the sand

>>> handle of the hoe (they said they looked at it with a magnifying glass. It was 10 months later when Ms Pontip found several DNA samples on it). I would expect better form 8 yr olds with a classroom microscope.

>>> Hannah's clothes before they lost them. Same for hair.

>>> Other clothing strewn on the beach - but quickly folded and stacked on a nearby rock.

>>> bottle

>>> places near the crime scene where clothes could be washed - sinks, faucets, washing machines, etc

>>> Mon's room. Nomsod's room. Hoeman's room. Stingray Man's room. Big Ears cop's room. None of those were looked at.

>>> The one room 'shag room' with no windows next to AC bar. The only thing in there is one dirty mattress on the floor.

>>> The phone which was reported found at the crime scene. It wasn't Hannah's because H's was given to island cops right after the crime by a friend of H's.

.....and that's just a partial list. RTP should be hauled up for dereliction of duty and given stiff fines and sentences commensurate on rank and degree of involvement in the shabby cover-up. If I was Chief of Police or PM, I would not hesitate to get to the bottom of this fiasco and mete out stiff punishment to everyone involved, not just the top brass. The repercussions of this botched case could reach Serpico-like dimensions. Serpico was a NYC cop who wound up revealing corruption throughout the ranks of the NYC police force. When the smoke cleared in the investigation of the police, many cops got busted, fined, jailed. Even some high ranking commissioners got in trouble. Serpico's life was obviously in danger, but he fled to Switzerland where he lived awhile longer. Thailand doesn't have a Serpico-like person, so it's up to us netizens to try to expose the problems, and hope some regulatory force applies its focus. Yet, how courageous and objective can a Thai regulatory committee be in Thailand? I don't think there's an answer to that without cynical chuckles.

[IslandLover]

TheLobster, on 24 Jan 2016 - 19:57, said:

Seems like misdirection and posts by trolls & shills have diverted the focus of some people:

According to the CCTV footage, the Second Deceased was found walking into the AC Bar with her friends at 00.15 hrs, whereas the Second Deceased walked into the AC Bar at 02.08.37 hrs. Thereafter, both Deceased were never found walking out of the Bar until their bodies were found.

Moreover on the same morning, the investigating officers took the two Defendants into custody to notify that the two Defendants had been charged.

As the lawyers that the inquiry officials had contacted to witness the inquiry of the two Defendants had not yet arrived, and the tide was rising to almost the point of the crime scene, which would have made it impossible to take the two defendants to the crime scene to reenact the crime in complement to their confession, the investigating officers therefore took the two Defendants to the reenactment at the crime scene first.

Afterwards, Police Lieutenant Colonel Thanongsak informed the two Defendants of their rights as the accused and informed them of the charges against them, stipulated in the arrest warrants for the two Defendants, through a Translator and in the presence of a lawyer.

The results of the DNA tests on the exhibited cigarette butts indicated that the second defendant and Mr Mau Mau had smoked the exhibited cigarettes, which was confirmed by the testimonies of the two defendants that they took it in turns to smoke the same exhibited cigarettes.

This indicates that the examination conducted by the Central Forensic Bureau was accurate and correct thus giving weight to the credibility of the test results and indicating that the test results are admissible.

even after the crime has been committed Mr O continued to use the exhibited hoe before it was sent off for examination

Even though the report of the results of the DNA tests conducted by the Institute of Forensic Science according to Document number Lor. 29 summarises the results and conclusions of the examination that the DNA of the two Defendants did not match the mixed DNA of a male found on the exhibited hoe, this is not significant or inconsistent because the mixed DNA of a male that was found on the hoe matched the DNA of the First Deceased.

Under the testimony of both Defendants that claimed that after drinking beer they both wanted to go home and so decided to walk home, but that then both went for a swim in the sea late at night while it was raining lightly, as the First Defendant has testified, this is unusual for normal people to do under such circumstances, and thus the testimonies are not credible. This gives rise to the belief that their behaviour must instead have been conducted in a way to destroy evidence on the bodies of both the Defendants.

There is a lot of evidence that wasn't present or is ignored in the report which to a layman like me would seem significant such as the hair found in Hannah's hand ....

even after the crime has been committed Mr O continued to use the exhibited hoe before it was sent off for examination

When is it ever acceptable in a murder investigation for the police to allow the suspected murder weapon to continue to be used in normal operation after the crime? Honestly, the mind boggles. It should have been immediately bagged as evidence by the RTP and taken away to a secure location. Don't tell me they didn't know it was the murder weapon, it had blood all over it! The press had photographed it within hours of the bodies being discovered and the blood was clearly visible.

[IslandLover]

somo, on 26 Jan 2016 - 08:42, said:

greenchair, on 26 Jan 2016 - 05:36, said:

So, they were just walking along in the rain and decided to jump in the sea with their clothes on.

Perfectly normal thing to do ?

Perfectly normal for young fun loving people in a hot climate yes.

I have done it myself before and similar crazy things as I am sure many others have. It's called having a good time in case you have never had one.

It was only raining slightly, if at all that night (no puddles of water or evidence of rain in the CCTV footage, although it was windy). And yes, it is perfectly normal for Asian men to go swimming with their clothes on. They don't like to strip off like farangs do. Before you ask, Wei Phyo took his shirt off because it didn't belong to him, it belonged to Maung Maung, and he obviously didn't want to get a borrowed shirt wet.

[jimmybkk]

My hair is already short. BTW has anyone spoken with the 3 young women to the right in this (now snipped) photo who saw anything of what you have postulated in the last 16 months or so about person or persons who where there that night and then made a hasty escape?

Original at: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11117396/Last-picture-of-British-backpackers-murdered-on-Thai-island.html

Quite possibly the British cops have spoken to them. It was reported that after the Brit team returned to the UK from Thailand they set about interviewing friends of the deceased who were with them on the island at that time. What the friends may have told them remains a mystery however because: a) This case involves the death penalty and Britain has a policy of not interfering in such cases, and "The Chilling Effect" that could damage relations between the 2 police forces if the British police were to reveal to the defense team their findings.

Apparently the British police gave details of these interviews to the Thai police instead...

I would imagine most of David & Hannah's friends would have been interviewed by police before they were allowed to leave the island. Whether these young ladies or any of their other friends made any mention of a person or persons who made a hasty escape being present that night is a mystery. Whether or not the statements given by the friends of the deceased, or others interviewed in the 9 days following the murders, was in any way related to the police publicly naming the person they claimed they had been tracking since the murders took place, whom they claimed had been on the island at the time, whom they alleged had made a hasty escape from the island and whom they announced was their prime suspect is also unknown. Maybe it was prompted by what they had seen of the CCTV footage from the island that night... or maybe they were just acting on a hunch... Who knows...?

What is known is that the newspaper that published the police statement that named their prime suspect was immediately sued and subsequently lost a defamation case brought about by the family of the person named by the police, and consequently had to make a settlement payment. Now, whether that action caused any person or persons who may have seen a person or persons who made a hasty escape to decide against making a public statement about who they may or may not have seen on the island is also a mystery.

There are just so many mysteries still surrounding the events of that night and the subsequent police investigation - perhaps that it why it has caught the public's attention so...

[JLCrab]

So they also haven't spoken with anyone like Reprieve or any of the UK newspaper/tabloid to the matter that, even though the Prosecution testified in the early stages of the trial that nobody was observed that evening following or confronting the late Ms. Witheridge, those in the photo above or maybe others in UK personally observed that not to be the case.

[rockingrobin]

I agree with somo and some others. The case was shoddy.

The police had everything they needed. Witnesses, dna everywhere , video footage of the suspects, belongings of the suspects at the scene, belongings of the victims at the suspects. They had everything and still they let one go.

I am shocked and angry about that. That beautiful lady was held down and raped in the worst possible way. And there are posters here that would like to see them out on a technicality. You are all correct, there was no need for torture . there was no need for a confession. And that has stained the case and gives posters fodder to defend them.

GC

' They still let one go ' I am presuming you mean Muang Muang

Now why would they let MM go, the RTP detained and questioned him and found he was not involved.

The reason I changed my mind is Wei Phyo story got to difficult to explain anymore. Muang Muang story is a carbon copy of Wei Phyo. The only difference is he didn't have the phone. He is there at 2am. He is back at 5am. It is his shoe left at the scene. He is on video walking around with one shoe. the oldest alibi in the world. I was with my girlfriend. not to mention that he has kept very quiet about all this

Strangely, I find the 2nd defendant story quite plausible. He went to the beach, and went to his bungalow to sleep. I think the first theory is correct, there were at least 3 people there. Muang Muang fits into all of it like a jigsaw.

GC

If you dont mind can you clarify how you know it is Muang Muang shoe left at the scene

[007cableguy]

I agree with somo and some others. The case was shoddy.

The police had everything they needed. Witnesses, dna everywhere , video footage of the suspects, belongings of the suspects at the scene, belongings of the victims at the suspects. They had everything and still they let one go.

I am shocked and angry about that. That beautiful lady was held down and raped in the worst possible way. And there are posters here that would like to see them out on a technicality. You are all correct, there was no need for torture . there was no need for a confession. And that has stained the case and gives posters fodder to defend them.

GC

' They still let one go ' I am presuming you mean Muang Muang

Now why would they let MM go, the RTP detained and questioned him and found he was not involved.

The reason I changed my mind is Wei Phyo story got to difficult to explain anymore. Muang Muang story is a carbon copy of Wei Phyo. The only difference is he didn't have the phone. He is there at 2am. He is back at 5am. It is his shoe left at the scene. He is on video walking around with one shoe. the oldest alibi in the world. I was with my girlfriend. not to mention that he has kept very quiet about all this

Strangely, I find the 2nd defendant story quite plausible. He went to the beach, and went to his bungalow to sleep. I think the first theory is correct, there were at least 3 people there. Muang Muang fits into all of it like a jigsaw.

GC

If you dont mind can you clarify how you know it is Muang Muang shoe left at the scene

Hopefully he won't be back after making a mug out of himself!