Koh Tao debacle: Shoddy work from beginning to end

[Tingtau]

"The investigation into the murder of two British backpackers on Koh Tao was, from the very start, a muddled affair"

Specially muddled by people airing uninformed opinions and the press happily playing along. Such as this:

"Irked government officials claimed the reaction was all a conspiracy to discredit the Royal Thai Police. It would be wonderful if it could be so easily imagined away."

That there are groups of people working to discredit the Koh Tao police investigation is a fact, they even set FB pages and websites for that purpose.

"The Koh Tao investigation was compromised from the beginning, when police failed to properly seal off the crime scene. A rumour that the attack was carried out by someone linked to influential figures on the island was summarily dismissed and investigators quickly focused on the migrant community, refusing to even contemplate the possibility that Thais might have been involved."

Except that they did name and question said influential figures, Thais and foreigners besides migrant workers. So, false again... what was that about muddled things?

"Respected forensic scientist Pornthip Rojanasunand, who has clashed with law-enforcement officials in the past, was denied access to the investigators' findings."

The defense was allowed to retest the evidence, Pornthip worked on it and reviewed the documentation. On top of that it was the defense that declined to retest the main DNA evidence, after asking for it.

"More doubts were raised over the failure to run comparative DNA tests the female victim's clothing and a hoe that was the purported murder weapon. Pornthip, acting on behalf of the defendants, conducted that test and found that the DNA on the hoe did not match that of the accused."

How about adding the factual nuance to that statement, for the sake of unmuddlying things? The initial police analysis found DNA from Witheridge on the hoe, Pornthip's analysis found also DNA from David Miller, and a third partial profile that matched 25% of the markers from one of the Burmese.

"The court presumably attached more credence to prosecution testimony that the suspects' semen was found on the female victim's body, even though analysis of the DNA samples of three people was, in the view of other witnesses, done too hastily."

Why wouldn't the judge attach more credence to people presenting actual evidence against biased opinions from the defense?

"Most troubling of all for the police case - and for the police force's reputation - is the fact the defendants, having withdrawn their confessions once a lawyer was belatedly provided, claimed they had admitted to the crime after being tortured. The court did not even take this point into consideration."

The court did take that into consideration, as anyone that reads the court ruling can see for themselves; so again muddle muddle muddle. The judge decided that there was no evidence of torture, in any case it's all moot since the ruling did not use the confessions to reach a decision(all of them, including to the Human Rights Commision, Myanmar embassy officials and other people)

"In spite of these many doubts and shortcomings, the national police chief, Pol Gen Jakthip Chaijinda, had the audacity to suggest that an unnamed political group had instigated the ensuing protests to discredit his men."

The very politically involved Ma Ba Tha sect that has been organizing the largest protests.

"The simple answer is that none of the other cases caught the interest of the foreign press, which stemmed from the fact that the victims in this murder were citizens of Britain, where the news media are not only highly opinionated but also alert to the hazards of Thai tourism."

This was not the first time Burmese murdered foreigners in Thailand, the difference is that in this case the defense team made every effort to, in their own words, have the case judged on the court of public opinion. Perhaps the should had focused on the court of law instead.

"Moreover, the story evoked an all-too-common narrative - defenceless migrant workers becoming ready scapegoats in criminal probes and the victims of the whims of the rich and powerful."

Bingo, it's all about the narrative, not what the facts dictate.

AlecG I have tried to answer your lengthy defence of the prosecution's case in as brief a fashion as possible...i.e. responding to your points with my response immediately following each point you make. I make no judgement nor do I intentionally criticize the Thai Court judge in any way for the decision made. It's too bad that only those who were allowed into the courtroom were in a position to judge the veracity of a witness nor, since no transcript of the proceedings is(to my knowledge) available to the public to know exactly what any witness actually stated, word for word!! This absence leads to the many questions which the public has and must remain unanswered. Transparency....no!! That's is the only opinion of which I feel no criticism can be levied against me!!

"Irked government officials claimed the reaction was all a conspiracy to discredit the Royal Thai Police. It would be wonderful if it could be so easily imagined away."

That there are groups of people working to discredit the Koh Tao police investigation is a fact, they even set FB pages and websites for that purpose.

There ARE groups of people who were and are working to expose what was, from the information released by the police at the time, a blatant mismanagement of the crime scene!! Just look at the photo of Montriwat Toowichian stepping over the rope containing the crime scene and then standing, unchallenged by the officer standing next to him, looking down at what probably was one of the two victims!!! No one needs to work to discredit the police investigation…..the police did a thorough job of that all by themselves!! If I, or a loved one, happen to be murdered and a similar quality of investigation takes place…I bloody well hope that there will be scores of people and groups of people making a similar effort to rectify the situation!!

"The Koh Tao investigation was compromised from the beginning, when police failed to properly seal off the crime scene. A rumour that the attack was carried out by someone linked to influential figures on the island was summarily dismissed and investigators quickly focused on the migrant community, refusing to even contemplate the possibility that Thais might have been involved."

Except that they did name and question said influential figures, Thais and foreigners besides migrant workers. So, false again... what was that about muddled things? You are partially correct, in that influential figures were questioned. But you appear to be ignoring the release that was initially made on September 23^rd 2014 - “Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon “ (Montriwat Toowichian, brother of village headman. Woraphan Toowichian); “He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said“; “He said both suspects (the both referring to Mon and Woraphan’s son, (Warot Toowichian (Nomsod) were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders“ Doesn’t sound to me as though the reporter could have misinterpreted the officer’s alleged comments! But then….all of a sudden, after Woraphan comes into the station and talks with the police, all evidence of complicity vapourizes, never existed….and even the stated implicating CCTV camera footage suddenly no longer exists!! Muddled thing…yesssss….but by whom? http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

"Respected forensic scientist Pornthip Rojanasunand, who has clashed with law-enforcement officials in the past, was denied access to the investigators' findings."

The defense was allowed to retest the evidence, Pornthip worked on it and reviewed the documentation. On top of that it was the defense that declined to retest the main DNA evidence, after asking for it. "More doubts were raised over the failure to run comparative DNA tests the female victim's clothing and a hoe that was the purported murder weapon. Pornthip, acting on behalf of the defendants, conducted that test and found that the DNA on the hoe did not match that of the accused." How about adding the factual nuance to that statement, for the sake of unmuddlying things? The initial police analysis found DNA from Witheridge on the hoe, Pornthip's analysis found also DNA from David Miller, and a third partial profile that matched 25% of the markers from one of the Burmese. By all means, let’s unmuddy things….starting with factual evidence! Did I miss that little tidbit….”initial police analysis found DNA on the hoe” Perhaps my eyes deceive me or the news reporter misunderstood, but my understanding of the sworn testimony of witnesses is that the police stated that they had NOT even tested the hoe for DNA but rather sought only fingerprints!! Please enlighten me if you have evidence to the contrary! My source is - http://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/learning-from-news/689964/koh-tao-murders-no-dna-match-says-dr-pornthip As for the your comment that it was the defence that “declined to retest……after asking for it” Yes, they did decline and for good reason!! Read the written words of an independent witness who attended every day of the trial and wrote down her best recollection (the relevant portion agrees completely with that of Andy Drummond) …starting at “ The defense team requested that the DNA be retested independently……………But what actually remained of the police's alleged DNA "evidence" to be retested was, in fact, merely the midway solution required in the actual DNA testing process itself. This midpoint solution will give an accurate profile; however, it CANNOT determine the actual ORIGINAL SOURCE of the DNA! Therefore, it will NOT show if original alleged DNA from the female decedent at the crime scene came from "semen" as the Royal Thai Police claim, or if it in fact came from oral mucosa, skin, hair, blood, saliva, cigarette butts, etc..and ending with “ For those two reasons, the defense team then; very wisely, declined retesting. “ Would you be willing to have anything to do with such “evidence”?? Better still, read the entire article…….

https://www.change.org/p/david-cameron-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-an-david-miller/u/14822666Koh And yes, by all means, let’s unmuddy things!!!

"The court presumably attached more credence to prosecution testimony that the suspects' semen was found on the female victim's body, even though analysis of the DNA samples of three people was, in the view of other witnesses, done too hastily." Why wouldn't the judge attach more credence to people presenting actual evidence against biased opinions from the defense? Ahhhh…do you think it possible that a reasonable person with a modicum of common sense would feel that a good reason thinking this would be that these “biased opinions” were those of eminently qualified persons in the field of evidence being relied upon, and NOT the evidence any of the investigators who had, to some of us, given the appearance of being both biased and unqualified in DNA matters? By the way, what is your justification for saying “biased opinions? Why their opinions “biased” and not the prosecution witnesses? What factual evidence do YOU possess that points toward such a conclusion?

"Most troubling of all for the police case - and for the police force's reputation - is the fact the defendants, having withdrawn their confessions once a lawyer was belatedly provided, claimed they had admitted to the crime after being tortured. The court did not even take this point into consideration."

The court did take that into consideration, as anyone that reads the court ruling can see for themselves; so again muddle muddle muddle. The judge decided that there was no evidence of torture, in any case it's all moot since the ruling did not use the confessions to reach a decision (all of them, including to the Human Rights Commision, Myanmar embassy officials and other people) ood No, in their ruling they made no written reference to using the confessions to reach a decision…instead, as I understand it, the sole evidence that they relied upon was what has been described as “a sloppy one page document replete with handwritten amendments and crossings out, including date changes. “ The reported words of the Judge in a curt reference to torture were “ there was no weight to the two men's claims that they had been tortured during interrogation by police. “ That does not translate for me as not having played any part in the conviction..but rather that the Judge opined that their claim “ have been tortured was baseless!

"In spite of these many doubts and shortcomings, the national police chief, Pol Gen Jakthip Chaijinda, had the audacity to suggest that an unnamed political group had instigated the ensuing protests to discredit his men."

The very politically involved Ma Ba Tha sect that has been organizing the largest protests. “Is it then your position that bad people cannot, even sometimes, do good things? I mean, sure I would rather, if I was believed to be innocent of a crime for which I had been convicted and sentenced to be put to death, that some group such as the ‘Benevolent Order of the Established Saints” were to be organizing a protest against the decision rather than an organization who were involved in what appears to be criminal activism, but…hey..beggars can’t be choosers! And, they can protest….can Thais flock to the streets in front of the Courthouse in Koh Samui? Hardly!! Read the following excerpt from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Thailand

” The judgment of Thai courts may not be criticized. After a controversial ruling in July 2006 in which a criminal court jailed three election commissioners, the court worked with the police to identify 16 individuals who were captured on TV news footage criticizing the judgement.^[73]The court later found all the individuals guilty and gave jail terms to 4 of them. The maximum jail sentence for the offence is seven years.^[74]” The simple answer is that none of the other cases caught the interest of the foreign press, which stemmed from the fact that the victims in this murder were citizens of Britain, where the news media are not only highly opinionated but also alert to the hazards of Thai tourism."

This was not the first time Burmese murdered foreigners in Thailand, the difference is that in this case the defense team made every effort to, in their own words, have the case judged on the court of public opinion. Perhaps they should had focused on the court of law in instead. Ha” And herein lies the dilemma, if one has no confidence in the impartiality and/or the competence of the relevant judicial system, where would YOU focus your attention. And, in any event, I thought from what I have seen that they DID focus on the court of law, but received a less than a welcome reception!

"Moreover, the story evoked an all-too-common narrative - defenceless migrant workers becoming ready scapegoats in criminal probes and the victims of the whims of the rich and powerful."

Bingo, it's all about the narrative, not what the facts dictate. BINGO, it was all about whose evidence was accepted and whose was not!! That is your real Bingo!

None of the above comments by me should be construed as a criticism of a Thai Court of Law…..if I have seemed critical, let me say simply this. It is unfortunate that one feels the need to state what I have just stated!!

[greenchair]

I totally agree with her. Dna evidence is not accepted as the sole source of evidence for conviction in a western court.

As the judge said, the dna evidence together with the circumstantial evidence collected surrounding the crime is how he based his decision. The most important evidence being the second defendant having stolen David's phone.

They were next to the crime scene and in the direct path of Hannah journey back to her room. They went back to the scene at 5am in the morning. As Jane taupin said, the courts must look at all the evidence,not just one piece. Their story, the dna, belongings left at the scene and their possession of the victims phone, all together had credibility in the end. Though I do believe there is at least one other person or more that should be with them. And at the very least they only proved rape. I don't think they proved who held the murder weapons.

[fitzcaraldo]

Here we go again

[metisdead]

A post containing a link to Bangkok Post has been removed:

26) The Bangkok Post and Phuketwan do not allow quotes from their news articles or other material to appear on Thaivisa.com. Neither do they allow links to their publications. Posts from members containing quotes from or links to Bangkok Post or Phuketwan publications will be deleted from the forum.

These restrictions are put in place by the above publications, not Thaivisa.com

In rare cases, forum Administrators or the news team may use these sources under special permission.

[M1keM1ke]

Just a sad day for justice oh right there is no justice in Thailand, cover up cover up!

[greenchair]

Aside from the dna ,there were 14 pieces of material evidence used.

1. David's phone.

2. The guitar.

3. Cigarette butts.

4. Video footage.

Does anyone know what all of the evidences were.

Just like to point out that the second defendants dna was found in 2 separate parts of the victims body. In the first part it was not mixed dna. It was in the other part of her that 2 dna and possibly 3 was identified. Dna (I believe) was also found on the cigarette butts that belonged to at least one of the defendants, and then there was 25% match to one defendant on the hoe found by pornthip herself.

[Khun Han]

^Yet more corrections: The police (who were caught out perjuring themselves repeatedly) claimed that there was DNA in and on Hannah's body that was a match to the B2. They never produced this original DNA for verification so it's an unsubstantiated claim. And a 25% match of DNA is meaningless, as has been pointed out many, many times on this forum: a 25% match can be a match to a piece of fruit (a banana has a 50% match to human DNA).

[greenchair]

^Yet more corrections: The police (who were caught out perjuring themselves repeatedly) claimed that there was DNA in and on Hannah's body that was a match to the B2. They never produced this original DNA for verification so it's an unsubstantiated claim. And a 25% match of DNA is meaningless, as has been pointed out many, many times on this forum: a 25% match can be a match to a piece of fruit (a banana has a 50% match to human DNA).

Still, there's no getting around the second defendant stole the victims phone. I not buyin, "I found it on the beach at 5am ".

They were there. Their belongings were there.

Everybody knows they were there.

Even you know they were there Khun Han. If they want out of the death penalty, they just better fess up.

[greenchair]

After thought.

So you're saying every single one of us would have a 25 % match on that hoe , after we eliminated the bananas.

Edited January 10, 2016 by greenchair

[MorristheRunt]

Talking of hoe's, why was the original not in court?

A nice new shiney and most important, sharp one was shown.

The original was old, well used, damaged and very blunt.

[Artisi]

Here we go again

The Village Glee Club are yet to arrive......

[Artisi]

Talking of hoe's, why was the original not in court?

A nice new shiney and most important, sharp one was shown.

The original was old, well used, damaged and very blunt.

Please don't ask silly questions ................

[MorristheRunt]

Talking of hoe's, why was the original not in court?

A nice new shiney and most important, sharp one was shown.

The original was old, well used, damaged and very blunt.

Please don't ask silly questions ................

Its a shame the defence team is not as stupid as me!

Edited January 11, 2016 by MorristheRunt

[greenchair]

Talking of hoe's, why was the original not in court?

A nice new shiney and most important, sharp one was shown.

The original was old, well used, damaged and very blunt.

Good question, and many people have asked.

It might be because the original hoe was used to test dna. It might even need to be used to test again at a later date. it would be useless once passed around the court for everyone to put their grubby little hands. It would also provide the defense with the perfect excuse as to why the b2 dna was on it after a retest.

I would hope, but not confident that anything that was used for dna in this case is being kept safely.

[MorristheRunt]

If the RTP are so sure of their investigation, just realease the original DNA samples from the victims and the DNA on the material evidence.

If the said DNA matches the defendents, then the conviction is good and total respect goes to the RTP and I hope the defendents die a slow and lingering death.

If not.........My word we have a problem

[greenchair]

I just don't understand why people keep going on about this dna as if it was the only evidence to base the conviction. As Jane taupin said, dna is just a scientific tool,that is sometimes open to different interpretation by different scientists. She said there must be other evidences to back it up. The verdict was based on many evidences, including the b2 own testimony. I don't think it's reasonable to focus only on one point, people should look at the whole picture from all sides, as the judge did.

[DM07]

I just don't understand why people keep going on about this dna as if it was the only evidence to base the conviction. As Jane taupin said, dna is just a scientific tool,that is sometimes open to different interpretation by different scientists. She said there must be other evidences to back it up. The verdict was based on many evidences, including the b2 own testimony. I don't think it's reasonable to focus only on one point, people should look at the whole picture from all sides, as the judge did.

Because- according to the judge- it was the most damning piece of evidence against the B2!

So if that pile of bovine excrement is the most damning part, why would anyone look at the rest of the "evidence", that is not as damning as the DNA?

[somo]

Aside from the dna ,there were 14 pieces of material evidence used.

1. David's phone.

2. The guitar.

3. Cigarette butts.

4. Video footage.

Does anyone know what all of the evidences were.

Just like to point out that the second defendants dna was found in 2 separate parts of the victims body. In the first part it was not mixed dna. It was in the other part of her that 2 dna and possibly 3 was identified. Dna (I believe) was also found on the cigarette butts that belonged to at least one of the defendants, and then there was 25% match to one defendant on the hoe found by pornthip herself.

Why do people here go on about the DNA evidence. None was presented at the trial. It had all been lost and it was just an assertion that it ever existed. There is no DNA evidence linking the defendants to the crime so can you and others please stop saying there was. It is confusing when false claims about conclusive evidence are made. There is none and making such claims only makes impartial readers suspicious of your motives thus reducing the impact of them.

Edited January 11, 2016 by somo

[Slip]

This thread seems to have been forgotten by most but it is being widely reported that Hannah's sister has posted publicly about the case for the first time.

I know facebook links are not usually allowed, but I think there may be an argument for special circumstances being applied in this case- if not mods please delete, and my apologies.

https://www.facebook.com/laura.witheridge/posts/10153150628116986

Edited January 11, 2016 by Slip

[greenchair]

Aside from the dna ,there were 14 pieces of material evidence used.

1. David's phone.

2. The guitar.

3. Cigarette butts.

4. Video footage.

Does anyone know what all of the evidences were.

Just like to point out that the second defendants dna was found in 2 separate parts of the victims body. In the first part it was not mixed dna. It was in the other part of her that 2 dna and possibly 3 was identified. Dna (I believe) was also found on the cigarette butts that belonged to at least one of the defendants, and then there was 25% match to one defendant on the hoe found by pornthip herself.

Why do people here go on about the DNA evidence. None was presented at the trial. It had all been lost and it was just an assertion that it ever existed. There is no DNA evidence linking the defendants to the crime so can you and others please stop saying there was. It is confusing when false claims about conclusive evidence are made. There is none and making such claims only makes impartial readers suspicious of your motives thus reducing the impact of them.

I totally agree with you. If there was no dna evidence then would they have been convicted with the other substantial evidence. I encourage the posters to please look at all evidence presented.

Such as how it came to be that defendants, by their own account had possession of David's phone.

And also by their account, why 2 of them were right next to the murder scene at the time of murders, and why 1 of them went back to the scene at 5am to retrieve belongings that had been left a stones throw from the murder scene. As you have pointed out, it is ludicrous to focus on only dna evidence that according to you is non evidence.

I think the other evidence is much more interesting. Thanks

[mrrizzla]

Have we seen the statements from Laura Witheridge the sister of Hannah? They are on Andrew Drummond's website. Suffice to say her and her family are NOT happy with the outcome of the trial and how they were treated.

So spin that one Koh Tao and RTP fan club.

[mrrizzla]

Some comments from the judges

* “why are you here? Why do you care? She is dead already”
* “why are you so bothered? Just go home and make another one”
* “why are you making such a fuss, she will be back in 30 days as
something else, she may have better luck next time”

Sounds to me like those judges got their brown envelopes and wanted this all over as soon as possible.

[MrTee]

What if I told you that I have had many death threats from thai people since they murdered my sister?

That they defaced photographs of me saying that the killers had only done ‘half the job’…

what if I told you that people commented on these photographs saying things like ‘there is still time’, and ‘tick tock tick tock’.

This is despicable..

As if the victim's families havn't been enough - why should they be exposed to this abuse..

[greenchair]

Have we seen the statements from Laura Witheridge the sister of Hannah? They are on Andrew Drummond's website. Suffice to say her and her family are NOT happy with the outcome of the trial and how they were treated.

So spin that one Koh Tao and RTP fan club.

Well, I went there and it was blocked. So I'll just take your word for it lol

[Darkknight666]

^ Agreed and I don't see how anyone can still believe the RTP with blind faith.

I do hope to see something similar from Maria Miller soon. Police have kept info relating to Luke's death unusually tight, IMO.

[MrTee]

Laura Witheridge says they were offered "Compensation" " to try and keep us quiet"..

[Darkknight666]

Have we seen the statements from Laura Witheridge the sister of Hannah? They are on Andrew Drummond's website. Suffice to say her and her family are NOT happy with the outcome of the trial and how they were treated.

So spin that one Koh Tao and RTP fan club.

Well, I went there and it was blocked. So I'll just take your word for it lol

Try a little harder, maybe just search her Facebook.

[mrrizzla]

Have we seen the statements from Laura Witheridge the sister of Hannah? They are on Andrew Drummond's website. Suffice to say her and her family are NOT happy with the outcome of the trial and how they were treated.

So spin that one Koh Tao and RTP fan club.

Well, I went there and it was blocked. So I'll just take your word for it lol

Use a proxy server. Drummond has long been blocked by this government. I wonder why

[greenchair]

What if I told you that I have had many death threats from thai people since they murdered my sister?

That they defaced photographs of me saying that the killers had only done half the job

what if I told you that people commented on these photographs saying things like there is still time, and tick tock tick tock.

This is despicable..

As if the victim's families havn't been enough - why should they be exposed to this abuse..

I am wondering if the threats came from b2 supporters .since all along the Witheridge family have said they were happy with the investigation. I can't see why b2 opposers would threaten them since they were of the same opinion.

[007cableguy]

What if I told you that I have had many death threats from thai people since they murdered my sister?

That they defaced photographs of me saying that the killers had only done half the job

what if I told you that people commented on these photographs saying things like there is still time, and tick tock tick tock.

This is despicable..

As if the victim's families havn't been enough - why should they be exposed to this abuse..

I am wondering if the threats came from b2 supporters .since all along the Witheridge family have said they were happy with the investigation. I can't see why b2 opposers would threaten them since they were of the same opinion.

Try taking your blinkers off!