Rice-pledging scheme helped the country, Wattana insists

[waitforusalso]

Wattana makes many valid points. The tax revenue figures are certainly evidence that something was stimulating spending & income. More than we can say for the economic malaise caused by the coup. Were the huge losses incurred from the coup's effect on tourism & trade included in the budget? The usual TVF yellow cheer-leading squad that swallow the whole Suthep/Prayuth playbook, repeat it here ad nauseam. We heard it from the PRDC stage & don't need your 2nd hand accounts of something you know little about.

What's largely ignored but hugely significant in the whole deal is the drastic fall in world rice prices just after implementation. If prices had maintained their 2010 levels the scheme would have been a lot less costly & small increases in prices could have seen it as self-funding.

In addition PTP had already announced adjustments to the pledging price to be made for the next growing season, showing an awareness for the market situation, not negligence. Large state programs are always subject to bureaucracy & inefficiencies, especially in developing countries. The use of the rice scheme as a facade for the coup and a tool for political persecution of opponents is blatantly obvious to all.

[Skywalker69]

Did he receive a check from Dubai?

[Skywalker69]

So those farmers who committed suicide due to non-payment from this wonderous rice scam were just a misunderstanding?

He can lie straight face while they hung?

All PTP supporters should read this article.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/thailand-thaksin-regime-turns-on-its-own-supporters/5366749?print=1

[silent]

So those farmers who committed suicide due to non-payment from this wonderous rice scam were just a misunderstanding?

He can lie straight face while they hung?

You're not supposed to think of collateral damage. It's the integrity of the mission and end results that are important to understand.

[BuriramDevelopers]

If it was right or not. Also stating poor farmers did not benefit at all. I am not sure about the details, not that into Thai politics , but one thing i do know. A lot of farmers in different expertise area's. And somehow they are hurting a lot more the last 2 years , than the years before. No income and the moneyflow seems to have dried up. desperate times.

[sendintheclowns]

Wattana makes many valid points. The tax revenue figures are certainly evidence that something was stimulating spending & income. More than we can say for the economic malaise caused by the coup. Were the huge losses incurred from the coup's effect on tourism & trade included in the budget? The usual TVF yellow cheer-leading squad that swallow the whole Suthep/Prayuth playbook, repeat it here ad nauseam. We heard it from the PRDC stage & don't need your 2nd hand accounts of something you know little about.

What's largely ignored but hugely significant in the whole deal is the drastic fall in world rice prices just after implementation. If prices had maintained their 2010 levels the scheme would have been a lot less costly & small increases in prices could have seen it as self-funding. B

Capture.JPG

In addition PTP had already announced adjustments to the pledging price to be made for the next growing season, showing an awareness for the market situation, not negligence. Large state programs are always subject to bureaucracy & inefficiencies, especially in developing countries. The use of the rice scheme as a facade for the coup and a tool for political persecution of opponents is blatantly obvious to all.

What is blatant here, is your misrepresentation of the FACTS.

Immediately prior to the Juky 2011 election, former PM Thaksin put his name and approval to a scheme to endure that former PM Yingluck and Thaksin's renamed political party would win the election. It was a not only a scheme, it was a enormous gamble, on the world markets. Guarantee the buying price of rice paddy for farmers at THB 15,000 per ton. This was 4,000 baht above the rate set by the previous Democrat Party and almost 50 percent above the global market price. Since almost 40 percent of Thailands labor force is in agriculture, and the majority of those are in rice, Yingluck sailed to victory and was sworn into office on August 10, 2011.

The strategy was a simplistic but unrealistic three-step process: Buy rice from farmers at inflated prices, stockpile it to reduce global supply and drive up global prices, and resell it later at a higher price to recover the initial outlay.

At the time, Thailand was the largest rice exporter in the world, controlling 30 percent of the market. Shinawatra thought this market share was large enough to manipulate global prices. Whether it was naivety, political pandering, poor judgment, or likely a combination of all three, this plan backfired spectacularly as other countries, notably India and Vietnam, promptly filled the Thai void from the end of 2011 to 2013.

As Thailand began to stockpile rice, it had to build new warehouses to hold this large, extra tonnage. Closing stocks from the 2011-2012 harvest jumped 68 percent over the 2010-2011 harvest. The following year, stockpiles jumped an additional 34 percent. By the end of 2013, Thailand was holding onto 17.5 million metric tons of rice, running out of places to store it, and confidence, on the world markets, about its quality was diminishing by the month globally. Concurrently, exports decreased 35 percent from 2011 to 2012 and bottomed out in 2013 at 39 percent lower compared to the 2011 year.

As for the need for the coup, you'd have to have had your head in the sand, to not have seen the real possibility of the country heading for a civil war.

[sendintheclowns]

I have to acknowledge much of the numbers I used came from an article at diplomat.com, prepared by scholars at the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy, Singapore;

[trogers]

So those farmers who committed suicide due to non-payment from this wonderous rice scam were just a misunderstanding?

He can lie straight face while they hung?

You're not supposed to think of collateral damage. It's the integrity of the mission and end results that are important to understand.

I love the words 'integrity' and 'end results'!

[than]

Rice-pledging scheme helped the country, Wattana insists

Yes, help Country to loose 500 Billion Bt

Mr Wattana, where money promise to farmers ?

YL regime has just cheating farmers just for gain power......

[LannaGuy]

Wattana makes many valid points. The tax revenue figures are certainly evidence that something was stimulating spending & income. More than we can say for the economic malaise caused by the coup. Were the huge losses incurred from the coup's effect on tourism & trade included in the budget? The usual TVF yellow cheer-leading squad that swallow the whole Suthep/Prayuth playbook, repeat it here ad nauseam. We heard it from the PRDC stage & don't need your 2nd hand accounts of something you know little about.

What's largely ignored but hugely significant in the whole deal is the drastic fall in world rice prices just after implementation. If prices had maintained their 2010 levels the scheme would have been a lot less costly & small increases in prices could have seen it as self-funding.

Capture.JPG

In addition PTP had already announced adjustments to the pledging price to be made for the next growing season, showing an awareness for the market situation, not negligence. Large state programs are always subject to bureaucracy & inefficiencies, especially in developing countries. The use of the rice scheme as a facade for the coup and a tool for political persecution of opponents is blatantly obvious to all.

they don't want the truth it's a waste of time the Junta have done a magnificent spin job and they are to be congratulated that they have convinced some, normally sane and fairly intelligent people, to actually believe this 'rice' story

[waitforusalso]

So those farmers who committed suicide due to non-payment from this wonderous rice scam were just a misunderstanding?

He can lie straight face while they hung?

All PTP supporters should read this article.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/thailand-thaksin-regime-turns-on-its-own-supporters/5366749?print=1

Really, an article from the yellow shirt AltThaiNews.

That is like asking you to read the UDD website to get their perspective.

You must be ashamed to post a link to a news group that expresses its outright support for Buddha Issara & his actions.

If you really need a good laugh have a read of some of theor other articles.

http://altthainews.blogspot.my/search/label/solutions

[halloween]

Wattana makes many valid points. The tax revenue figures are certainly evidence that something was stimulating spending & income. More than we can say for the economic malaise caused by the coup. Were the huge losses incurred from the coup's effect on tourism & trade included in the budget? The usual TVF yellow cheer-leading squad that swallow the whole Suthep/Prayuth playbook, repeat it here ad nauseam. We heard it from the PRDC stage & don't need your 2nd hand accounts of something you know little about.

What's largely ignored but hugely significant in the whole deal is the drastic fall in world rice prices just after implementation. If prices had maintained their 2010 levels the scheme would have been a lot less costly & small increases in prices could have seen it as self-funding.

Capture.JPG

In addition PTP had already announced adjustments to the pledging price to be made for the next growing season, showing an awareness for the market situation, not negligence. Large state programs are always subject to bureaucracy & inefficiencies, especially in developing countries. The use of the rice scheme as a facade for the coup and a tool for political persecution of opponents is blatantly obvious to all.

Are you referring to the adjustments cancelled due to political pressure?

Or are you saying that after more than 2 years PTP finally realised that their expensive boondoggle was unsustainable? As hundreds of billions of baht had already been lost, wouldn't that justify charges of negligence?

[rubl]

I have not seen the budget nor am I surprised it was implemented poorly and was a disaster. We don't know all the facts and Wattana presents some important points. Nearly everyone on here buries them without giving them a chance of a defence and that is political not about rice. I have little doubt this is not about rice and the present government will be giving billions away with it's new 'give tax back to the amply rich' scheme, but that's not 'popularist' right?

I have checked the budget, and the problem was that even though everone told them they should have included it in the budget they did not., That is negligence. The cost (not 800 billion i divide that by 4 as it stretches out over a few years) is equal to that of the health budget for a year (almost).

So even though it cost as much as the health budget for 1 year they did not include it. They did not do it because otherwise they could not implement other policies as the budget would be too much in deficit. So it was deliberate and they were warned. So its negligence too. So no excuses they are guilty.

Billions or 800 billion.. hmmm just a small difference.

it was supposed to be self-funding and why "deliberate" what's the conspiracy theory? I'm afraid it's not about rice it's about censored

Usual deflection.

Mr. Wattana says the scheme had strict financial and monetary controls. He also says appropriate actions were taken to deal with operational issues.

PTP now have the chance to prove this in the Supreme Court - simply produce audited accounts, which should be easy if the controls were as strict as he says; and produce the meeting minutes detailing issues, actions, follow ups and resolutions.

We await to see if PTP will do this. Or simply lie, deflect, delay and expect everyone to believe them when they say it's all a misunderstanding and everything was good really.

So from 'subsidy' we've come back to the truth and 'self-financing' for this scheme. Properly documented? Well, Minister of (little white lies and) Finance said a day before the scam started

"Mr Kittiratt said the 430 billion baht budget is not a one-off payment but the state would gain it back when selling the milled rice.

...

Up to 3.2 million of farm households have registered with the Agriculture and Cooperatives Ministry to bring paddy they planted on nearly 60 million rai to pledge with the state, from tomorrow, when the government’s rice pledging scheme starts, until the end of February."

http://en.isnhotnews.com/?p=14909

Of course two months ago Pheu Thai stated they 'aimed' at 3.2m rice farming families and a week later we heard 1.4m actually participated.

Edited January 4, 2016 by rubl

[Skywalker69]

So those farmers who committed suicide due to non-payment from this wonderous rice scam were just a misunderstanding?

He can lie straight face while they hung?

All PTP supporters should read this article.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/thailand-thaksin-regime-turns-on-its-own-supporters/5366749?print=1

Really, an article from the yellow shirt AltThaiNews.

That is like asking you to read the UDD website to get their perspective.

You must be ashamed to post a link to a news group that expresses its outright support for Buddha Issara & his actions.

If you really need a good laugh have a read of some of theor other articles.

http://altthainews.blogspot.my/search/label/solutions

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1390992870&section=11&typecate=no

[Manu75]

Rice-pledging scheme helped the country, Wattana insists

In his dream, he and those friends have ruined the country with their corrupt program

[GOLDBUGGY]

I think the Heart was in the right place with the intention to add extra income to the Farmers Income. Considering that over 40% of the employed people in Thailand are still Small Farmers and World Rice Prices were very low then,so something may have been needed to be done. If 40% of your population doesn't have money to buy anything, the whole country suffers. But like many "Good Intentions" things don't always go according to plan.

I remember while living in Saudi Arabia once the government decided they didn't want anyone to starve in Saudi Arabia, so they decided to help the poor. Besides the huge Government Subsidy on Fuel and Fertilizer, and assisting with Farm Irrigation, they put a heavy subsidy on staple food, like Arabic Bread and Imported Rice. So on the outside looking in, this sounds like a noble and worthy cause.

But after a few years of these Subsidies, the Saudi Government noticed something very strange. That the Food Subsidy was far higher than any of them ever expected, and especially on Imported Rice. Since the Imported Rice Price had not changed that much they searched further and found out the the consumption rate of Rice in Saudi Arabia had tripled in just 2 short years. It was then they discovered that with such a huge Subsidy on Imported Rice, Farmers were using it as Chicken Feed, because now this was cheaper. So a good example of Good Intentions gone bad.

Not having the money to pay for this Rice right away and stockpiling it for better days, was a bad idea for Thailand. The plan was that by hoarding all this Rice the price would go up, and it did temporarily. But this only allowed other Rice Exporting Countries to dump all of there stockpiled rice, causing the price to come back down again. So every other country benefited from this although Thailand took all the risk, and since it could not sell this Rice at the expected price, they got left with huge stockpiles.

This plan, without strict watch dogs, also opened the door for corruption. No proper accounting for inventory and stock piles was taken. A lot of Rice was purchased from other Rice Exporting Countries and sold to the Thai Government for double the Market Price and then Stockpiled. So like the Saudis, they ended up with a cost that far exceeded there expectations.

Will Thai Farmers survive this years without assistance with low crop production and low rice prices? I don't know! It is going to be tough!

[rubl]

I think the Heart was in the right place with the intention to add extra income to the Farmers Income. Considering that over 40% of the employed people in Thailand are still Small Farmers and World Rice Prices were very low then,so something may have been needed to be done. If 40% of your population doesn't have money to buy anything, the whole country suffers. But like many "Good Intentions" things don't always go according to plan.

I remember while living in Saudi Arabia once the government decided they didn't want anyone to starve in Saudi Arabia, so they decided to help the poor. Besides the huge Government Subsidy on Fuel and Fertilizer, and assisting with Farm Irrigation, they put a heavy subsidy on staple food, like Arabic Bread and Imported Rice. So on the outside looking in, this sounds like a noble and worthy cause.

But after a few years of these Subsidies, the Saudi Government noticed something very strange. That the Food Subsidy was far higher than any of them ever expected, and especially on Imported Rice. Since the Imported Rice Price had not changed that much they searched further and found out the the consumption rate of Rice in Saudi Arabia had tripled in just 2 short years. It was then they discovered that with such a huge Subsidy on Imported Rice, Farmers were using it as Chicken Feed, because now this was cheaper. So a good example of Good Intentions gone bad.

Not having the money to pay for this Rice right away and stockpiling it for better days, was a bad idea for Thailand. The plan was that by hoarding all this Rice the price would go up, and it did temporarily. But this only allowed other Rice Exporting Countries to dump all of there stockpiled rice, causing the price to come back down again. So every other country benefited from this although Thailand took all the risk, and since it could not sell this Rice at the expected price, they got left with huge stockpiles.

This plan, without strict watch dogs, also opened the door for corruption. No proper accounting for inventory and stock piles was taken. A lot of Rice was purchased from other Rice Exporting Countries and sold to the Thai Government for double the Market Price and then Stockpiled. So like the Saudis, they ended up with a cost that far exceeded there expectations.

Will Thai Farmers survive this years without assistance with low crop production and low rice prices? I don't know! It is going to be tough!

I doubt the heart was in the right place.

According to Pheu Thai the scheme was meant to help poor rice farmers and aimed at 3.7 million rice farming families representing 23% of the Thai population. Only 1.4 million rice farming families participated. On the 22nd of October 2015 Pheu Thai party also claimed in a statement that 870 billion baht have been paid directly into the pockets of rice farmers “without any leaks or without any other people benefiting from the scheme.” That's over a period of almost two and a half years (2011-10-07 - 2014-04-??).

Those 1.4 million rice farming families who did participate were divided into small, medium and large income households with brackets at 100,000 and 500,000 Baht. Only 10,000 were put in the 'large income households'. Pheu Thai didn't provide specifics on how much the three groups got, no data on average, nor on totals per group.

Now assume most of the 870 billion went to small and medium income households. Furthermore assume we had 700,000 small income households, 700,000 medium income households and only 10,000 large income households. Assume each year 300 billion was paid out. Assume small income households got 80,000 average, medium 330,000 average, large 1,000,000 average.

With these assumptions on a yearly base large income households got 10 billion total for their paddy, medium 231 billion and small 56 billion. Total 297 billion per year.

Imagine what would have happened if all those 3.7 million rice farming families had participated as with only 37% participating the Yingluck government already lost 500++ billion Baht on their 'self-financing' scheme.

BTW if a small income rice farming family receives 80,000 in a year for their rice crop we still need to deduct costs of producing that rice crop and have to hope some money is left to keep the family alive for 12 months. Of course with all properly administrated those families will also be required to start fill in income tax forms.

It would seem that this type of handouts isn't really helping much but costs the state an enormous amount of money.

I'm aware I made assumptions which may be incorrect. If someone can provide more accurate figures based on the data provided by Pheu Thai, please do so.

[billd766]

Wattana makes many valid points. The tax revenue figures are certainly evidence that something was stimulating spending & income. More than we can say for the economic malaise caused by the coup. Were the huge losses incurred from the coup's effect on tourism & trade included in the budget? The usual TVF yellow cheer-leading squad that swallow the whole Suthep/Prayuth playbook, repeat it here ad nauseam. We heard it from the PRDC stage & don't need your 2nd hand accounts of something you know little about.

What's largely ignored but hugely significant in the whole deal is the drastic fall in world rice prices just after implementation. If prices had maintained their 2010 levels the scheme would have been a lot less costly & small increases in prices could have seen it as self-funding.

Capture.JPG

In addition PTP had already announced adjustments to the pledging price to be made for the next growing season, showing an awareness for the market situation, not negligence. Large state programs are always subject to bureaucracy & inefficiencies, especially in developing countries. The use of the rice scheme as a facade for the coup and a tool for political persecution of opponents is blatantly obvious to all.

they don't want the truth it's a waste of time the Junta have done a magnificent spin job and they are to be congratulated that they have convinced some, normally sane and fairly intelligent people, to actually believe this 'rice' story

I have to agree with you wholeheartedly. They did such a good spin job that they convinced the World Bank, the IMF, many respected financial institutions and journalists years before the PTP finally released their tight fisted grip on power and government.

In fact they spun it so well that it was not only known in Thailand but many countries around the world. They even managed to convince the Indian and Vietnamese governments to increase their rice exports at world market prices so that the PTP could buy and store more rice (at 40% over the market price) for the future sales at even lower world rice market prices.

Thank you 3 times for opening my eyes to this dastardly spin.

[GOLDBUGGY]

I think the Heart was in the right place with the intention to add extra income to the Farmers Income. Considering that over 40% of the employed people in Thailand are still Small Farmers and World Rice Prices were very low then,so something may have been needed to be done. If 40% of your population doesn't have money to buy anything, the whole country suffers. But like many "Good Intentions" things don't always go according to plan.

I remember while living in Saudi Arabia once the government decided they didn't want anyone to starve in Saudi Arabia, so they decided to help the poor. Besides the huge Government Subsidy on Fuel and Fertilizer, and assisting with Farm Irrigation, they put a heavy subsidy on staple food, like Arabic Bread and Imported Rice. So on the outside looking in, this sounds like a noble and worthy cause.

But after a few years of these Subsidies, the Saudi Government noticed something very strange. That the Food Subsidy was far higher than any of them ever expected, and especially on Imported Rice. Since the Imported Rice Price had not changed that much they searched further and found out the the consumption rate of Rice in Saudi Arabia had tripled in just 2 short years. It was then they discovered that with such a huge Subsidy on Imported Rice, Farmers were using it as Chicken Feed, because now this was cheaper. So a good example of Good Intentions gone bad.

Not having the money to pay for this Rice right away and stockpiling it for better days, was a bad idea for Thailand. The plan was that by hoarding all this Rice the price would go up, and it did temporarily. But this only allowed other Rice Exporting Countries to dump all of there stockpiled rice, causing the price to come back down again. So every other country benefited from this although Thailand took all the risk, and since it could not sell this Rice at the expected price, they got left with huge stockpiles.

This plan, without strict watch dogs, also opened the door for corruption. No proper accounting for inventory and stock piles was taken. A lot of Rice was purchased from other Rice Exporting Countries and sold to the Thai Government for double the Market Price and then Stockpiled. So like the Saudis, they ended up with a cost that far exceeded there expectations.

Will Thai Farmers survive this years without assistance with low crop production and low rice prices? I don't know! It is going to be tough!

I doubt the heart was in the right place.

According to Pheu Thai the scheme was meant to help poor rice farmers and aimed at 3.7 million rice farming families representing 23% of the Thai population. Only 1.4 million rice farming families participated. On the 22nd of October 2015 Pheu Thai party also claimed in a statement that 870 billion baht have been paid directly into the pockets of rice farmers “without any leaks or without any other people benefiting from the scheme.” That's over a period of almost two and a half years (2011-10-07 - 2014-04-??).

Those 1.4 million rice farming families who did participate were divided into small, medium and large income households with brackets at 100,000 and 500,000 Baht. Only 10,000 were put in the 'large income households'. Pheu Thai didn't provide specifics on how much the three groups got, no data on average, nor on totals per group.

Now assume most of the 870 billion went to small and medium income households. Furthermore assume we had 700,000 small income households, 700,000 medium income households and only 10,000 large income households. Assume each year 300 billion was paid out. Assume small income households got 80,000 average, medium 330,000 average, large 1,000,000 average.

With these assumptions on a yearly base large income households got 10 billion total for their paddy, medium 231 billion and small 56 billion. Total 297 billion per year.

Imagine what would have happened if all those 3.7 million rice farming families had participated as with only 37% participating the Yingluck government already lost 500++ billion Baht on their 'self-financing' scheme.

BTW if a small income rice farming family receives 80,000 in a year for their rice crop we still need to deduct costs of producing that rice crop and have to hope some money is left to keep the family alive for 12 months. Of course with all properly administrated those families will also be required to start fill in income tax forms.

It would seem that this type of handouts isn't really helping much but costs the state an enormous amount of money.

I'm aware I made assumptions which may be incorrect. If someone can provide more accurate figures based on the data provided by Pheu Thai, please do so.

It is not that anyone can contest your numbers, as accurate ones are hard to come by. It is just that your numbers don't add up.

You say the Government spent 870 Billion Baht of this Rice Scheme. You further stated that only 1.4 Million Rice Farming Families participated in this Rice Scheme. So what you are really saying then is that each family received 870 Billion Baht / 1.4 Million Families = 621,5000 Baht/ Family.

Which of course they didn't receive near this much and why your figures do not add up.

I think you are missing a zero someplace.

[metisdead]

An off topic post about WoMD has been removed as well as the replies.

[rubl]

I think the Heart was in the right place with the intention to add extra income to the Farmers Income. Considering that over 40% of the employed people in Thailand are still Small Farmers and World Rice Prices were very low then,so something may have been needed to be done. If 40% of your population doesn't have money to buy anything, the whole country suffers. But like many "Good Intentions" things don't always go according to plan.

I remember while living in Saudi Arabia once the government decided they didn't want anyone to starve in Saudi Arabia, so they decided to help the poor. Besides the huge Government Subsidy on Fuel and Fertilizer, and assisting with Farm Irrigation, they put a heavy subsidy on staple food, like Arabic Bread and Imported Rice. So on the outside looking in, this sounds like a noble and worthy cause.

But after a few years of these Subsidies, the Saudi Government noticed something very strange. That the Food Subsidy was far higher than any of them ever expected, and especially on Imported Rice. Since the Imported Rice Price had not changed that much they searched further and found out the the consumption rate of Rice in Saudi Arabia had tripled in just 2 short years. It was then they discovered that with such a huge Subsidy on Imported Rice, Farmers were using it as Chicken Feed, because now this was cheaper. So a good example of Good Intentions gone bad.

Not having the money to pay for this Rice right away and stockpiling it for better days, was a bad idea for Thailand. The plan was that by hoarding all this Rice the price would go up, and it did temporarily. But this only allowed other Rice Exporting Countries to dump all of there stockpiled rice, causing the price to come back down again. So every other country benefited from this although Thailand took all the risk, and since it could not sell this Rice at the expected price, they got left with huge stockpiles.

This plan, without strict watch dogs, also opened the door for corruption. No proper accounting for inventory and stock piles was taken. A lot of Rice was purchased from other Rice Exporting Countries and sold to the Thai Government for double the Market Price and then Stockpiled. So like the Saudis, they ended up with a cost that far exceeded there expectations.

Will Thai Farmers survive this years without assistance with low crop production and low rice prices? I don't know! It is going to be tough!

I doubt the heart was in the right place.

According to Pheu Thai the scheme was meant to help poor rice farmers and aimed at 3.7 million rice farming families representing 23% of the Thai population. Only 1.4 million rice farming families participated. On the 22nd of October 2015 Pheu Thai party also claimed in a statement that 870 billion baht have been paid directly into the pockets of rice farmers “without any leaks or without any other people benefiting from the scheme.” That's over a period of almost two and a half years (2011-10-07 - 2014-04-??).

Those 1.4 million rice farming families who did participate were divided into small, medium and large income households with brackets at 100,000 and 500,000 Baht. Only 10,000 were put in the 'large income households'. Pheu Thai didn't provide specifics on how much the three groups got, no data on average, nor on totals per group.

Now assume most of the 870 billion went to small and medium income households. Furthermore assume we had 700,000 small income households, 700,000 medium income households and only 10,000 large income households. Assume each year 300 billion was paid out. Assume small income households got 80,000 average, medium 330,000 average, large 1,000,000 average.

With these assumptions on a yearly base large income households got 10 billion total for their paddy, medium 231 billion and small 56 billion. Total 297 billion per year.

Imagine what would have happened if all those 3.7 million rice farming families had participated as with only 37% participating the Yingluck government already lost 500++ billion Baht on their 'self-financing' scheme.

BTW if a small income rice farming family receives 80,000 in a year for their rice crop we still need to deduct costs of producing that rice crop and have to hope some money is left to keep the family alive for 12 months. Of course with all properly administrated those families will also be required to start fill in income tax forms.

It would seem that this type of handouts isn't really helping much but costs the state an enormous amount of money.

I'm aware I made assumptions which may be incorrect. If someone can provide more accurate figures based on the data provided by Pheu Thai, please do so.

It is not that anyone can contest your numbers, as accurate ones are hard to come by. It is just that your numbers don't add up.

You say the Government spent 870 Billion Baht of this Rice Scheme. You further stated that only 1.4 Million Rice Farming Families participated in this Rice Scheme. So what you are really saying then is that each family received 870 Billion Baht / 1.4 Million Families = 621,5000 Baht/ Family.

Which of course they didn't receive near this much and why your figures do not add up.

I think you are missing a zero someplace.

For one I didn't state, Pheu Thai stated. My part is where I start with "now assume".

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/864866-pheu-thai-issues-statement-in-defence-of-ms-yingluck-over-rice-pledging-scheme/

Data on small, medium and large income families and 10,000 large income families I took from a post by Eric Loh, but I cannot find it at the moment.That info had the division in three groups nd was 'used' to indicate that 'only' 10,000 large income households participated. I just divided the 870 billion over three years of 297 billion and into the 'income groups' as were indicated.

BTW using only Pheu Thai figures I also have

"Mr Niwatthamrong claimed that farmers had earned over 10,000 baht for each kwien of paddy they sold under the scheme instead of just 7,000 baht and, overall, farmers throughout the country earned 140 billion baht/year from their rice crops.

On top of that, he claimed that farmers’ spending from their increased earnings had generated an addition of 350 -357 billion baht/annum in circulation in the economic system hence contributing to one percent increase of the GDP per year.

Last but not least, he claimed that the Finance Ministry managed to collect an addition of 100 billion baht annually in VAT and corporate income taxes."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/869475-niwatthamrong-defends-ms-yingluck-over-rice-pledging-scheme/

That seems to suggest that with 140 billion Baht earnings farmers manage to generate 350-357 billion Baht circulation even with 100 billion of that circulation going to the taxman.

As I wrote, data provided by Pheu Thai is a bit lacking in details although some of the figures seem to be used to suggest 'details'. It doesn't really add up.

[Skywalker69]

I think the Heart was in the right place with the intention to add extra income to the Farmers Income. Considering that over 40% of the employed people in Thailand are still Small Farmers and World Rice Prices were very low then,so something may have been needed to be done. If 40% of your population doesn't have money to buy anything, the whole country suffers. But like many "Good Intentions" things don't always go according to plan.

I remember while living in Saudi Arabia once the government decided they didn't want anyone to starve in Saudi Arabia, so they decided to help the poor. Besides the huge Government Subsidy on Fuel and Fertilizer, and assisting with Farm Irrigation, they put a heavy subsidy on staple food, like Arabic Bread and Imported Rice. So on the outside looking in, this sounds like a noble and worthy cause.

But after a few years of these Subsidies, the Saudi Government noticed something very strange. That the Food Subsidy was far higher than any of them ever expected, and especially on Imported Rice. Since the Imported Rice Price had not changed that much they searched further and found out the the consumption rate of Rice in Saudi Arabia had tripled in just 2 short years. It was then they discovered that with such a huge Subsidy on Imported Rice, Farmers were using it as Chicken Feed, because now this was cheaper. So a good example of Good Intentions gone bad.

Not having the money to pay for this Rice right away and stockpiling it for better days, was a bad idea for Thailand. The plan was that by hoarding all this Rice the price would go up, and it did temporarily. But this only allowed other Rice Exporting Countries to dump all of there stockpiled rice, causing the price to come back down again. So every other country benefited from this although Thailand took all the risk, and since it could not sell this Rice at the expected price, they got left with huge stockpiles.

This plan, without strict watch dogs, also opened the door for corruption. No proper accounting for inventory and stock piles was taken. A lot of Rice was purchased from other Rice Exporting Countries and sold to the Thai Government for double the Market Price and then Stockpiled. So like the Saudis, they ended up with a cost that far exceeded there expectations.

Will Thai Farmers survive this years without assistance with low crop production and low rice prices? I don't know! It is going to be tough!

I doubt the heart was in the right place.

According to Pheu Thai the scheme was meant to help poor rice farmers and aimed at 3.7 million rice farming families representing 23% of the Thai population. Only 1.4 million rice farming families participated. On the 22nd of October 2015 Pheu Thai party also claimed in a statement that 870 billion baht have been paid directly into the pockets of rice farmers “without any leaks or without any other people benefiting from the scheme.” That's over a period of almost two and a half years (2011-10-07 - 2014-04-??).

Those 1.4 million rice farming families who did participate were divided into small, medium and large income households with brackets at 100,000 and 500,000 Baht. Only 10,000 were put in the 'large income households'. Pheu Thai didn't provide specifics on how much the three groups got, no data on average, nor on totals per group.

Now assume most of the 870 billion went to small and medium income households. Furthermore assume we had 700,000 small income households, 700,000 medium income households and only 10,000 large income households. Assume each year 300 billion was paid out. Assume small income households got 80,000 average, medium 330,000 average, large 1,000,000 average.

With these assumptions on a yearly base large income households got 10 billion total for their paddy, medium 231 billion and small 56 billion. Total 297 billion per year.

Imagine what would have happened if all those 3.7 million rice farming families had participated as with only 37% participating the Yingluck government already lost 500++ billion Baht on their 'self-financing' scheme.

BTW if a small income rice farming family receives 80,000 in a year for their rice crop we still need to deduct costs of producing that rice crop and have to hope some money is left to keep the family alive for 12 months. Of course with all properly administrated those families will also be required to start fill in income tax forms.

It would seem that this type of handouts isn't really helping much but costs the state an enormous amount of money.

I'm aware I made assumptions which may be incorrect. If someone can provide more accurate figures based on the data provided by Pheu Thai, please do so.

It is not that anyone can contest your numbers, as accurate ones are hard to come by. It is just that your numbers don't add up.

You say the Government spent 870 Billion Baht of this Rice Scheme. You further stated that only 1.4 Million Rice Farming Families participated in this Rice Scheme. So what you are really saying then is that each family received 870 Billion Baht / 1.4 Million Families = 621,5000 Baht/ Family.

Which of course they didn't receive near this much and why your figures do not add up.

I think you are missing a zero someplace.

The storage of the rice costed 192 millions a year and are still costing money. Edited January 5, 2016 by Skywalker69

[sendintheclowns]

So those farmers who committed suicide due to non-payment from this wonderous rice scam were just a misunderstanding?

He can lie straight face while they hung?

All PTP supporters should read this article.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/thailand-thaksin-regime-turns-on-its-own-supporters/5366749?print=1

Really, an article from the yellow shirt AltThaiNews.

That is like asking you to read the UDD website to get their perspective.

You must be ashamed to post a link to a news group that expresses its outright support for Buddha Issara & his actions.

If you really need a good laugh have a read of some of theor other articles.

http://altthainews.blogspot.my/search/label/solutions

A more balanced report ?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/thai-rice-subsidy-leaves-junta-in-a-quandary-1403104286#livefyre-comment

You find more, all over the international press, in particular, the Economist