British man found dead on Koh Tao

[SiSePuede419]

Are you sure?

https://youtu.be/PrJgFtnRfNU

OK. As soon as you get out of the hospital, I'm buying you a shot, Dave.

555

[kcirtapyelrah]

Are you sure?

https://youtu.be/PrJgFtnRfNU

OK. As soon as you get out of the hospital, I'm buying you a shot, Dave.

555

You know, very well, that he wouldn't have attempted such a stupid act if he wasn't egged on, your making a mockery out of this whole sad case.

[smedly]

many posting on this thread have been accused of speculating, what is clear is that the police are also speculating - they were not there but speculated as to what happened, nothing more than anyone else on this forum is doing, what the police supposedly found was a body floating in a swimming pool with injuries, they speculated how the disclosed injuries occurred, well that is all fine and good but is still speculation nothing beyond anything that anyone here might conclude unless the body had injuries that didn't match up - which the family are claiming........................so there is the problem

None of us here saw the body - the police did

- did the police exclude or ignore injuries that would not fit with their story (speculation) of what happened - the family say they did

- why were there no cctv cameras working ?

- why on earth would the guy do what the police claimed, looking at the photos of the pool I find it very hard to believe that he could have missed the water even if he did get up there and fall

- if he was so drunk (as claimed) how would he have even been able to climb up onto that roof as the police speculated he did

sorry but nothing fits with the police version of events no matter how I try and make it fit

The whole thing just stinks - Koh Tao stink

didn't proof read my post but I'm sure it is generally understood

[smedly]

^ Complaining about posters making suppositions, and countering them with a post full of suppositions.....interesting tactic.

Anyway, one thing you got right is no news about the autopsy report being released yet (I did a search last night). But then you spoiled even that by making a supposition that this means it supports the RTP vrsion of events. Oh well.....

What is more probable is that an altercation took place, the guy was beaten up and chucked in the pool to drown. Not murder per se but manslaughter.

If one was to accept your speculative scenario, it would be murder, not manslaughter. if someone is beaten and then thrown into a pool and left to drown, then the intent is to take their life, therefore it's murder. No motive, no suspects, no witnesses, no nothing and an autopsy announcing death by drowning. How about this scenario, the possibility of death by misadventure?

The friends and sister have gone very quiet. I wonder why? Also, the friends distanced themselves from the incident very quickly when confronted by police but then allegedly went out of their way to photograph the corpse (secretly) and then announce to the world they discovered marks not consistent with the police report. Now, what is their medical training to be able to make such remarks and did they have a copy of the autopsy and police reports to enable them to make such a comparison. Only asking.

well you lost me there, what exactly were you asking ?

does someone need a degree in the medical profession to take a photo

as for "going quiet" why are you posting if you have heard nothing new

run along

[SiSePuede419]

Are you sure?

OK. As soon as you get out of the hospital, I'm buying you a shot, Dave.

555

You know, very well, that he wouldn't have attempted such a stupid act if he wasn't egged on, your making a mockery out of this whole sad case.

Dave? Is that you?

[Moonsterk]

^ Complaining about posters making suppositions, and countering them with a post full of suppositions.....interesting tactic.

Anyway, one thing you got right is no news about the autopsy report being released yet (I did a search last night). But then you spoiled even that by making a supposition that this means it supports the RTP vrsion of events. Oh well.....

At least I said my theory was a supposition and did not state it as a fact or dismiss likely scenarios as "impossible"

What is more probable is that an altercation took place, the guy was beaten up and chucked in the pool to drown. Not murder per se but manslaughter.

How it that more probable than a known alcohol abuser having an accident?

You know, very well, that he wouldn't have attempted such a stupid act if he wasn't egged on, your making a mockery out of this whole sad case.

This post ^ gets the reward for supposition. Sorry, even if you knew the guy very well, you cannot read his mind and have no idea as to his motives.

But I'll add another supposition of my own- well no, I won't- far too much of it already on the thread.

One fact is the UK autopsy that was to definitively "prove" it was murder has not been produced, so I'm left to think it concurred with the Thai police version of events- which is simply their theory of course.

A climb up a few meters ( not knowing if he made it to the top or not) , a tumble down- scratched from barbed wire that was around the shack, bruises from the tumble and a hard landing, and his head hit on the edge of a pool, and simply was knocked out and rolled into the pool and drowned. A very unfortunate accident but one that was in no small way caused by his own behavior.

There is no proof whatsoever he was climbing up so as to, quoting a friend's post " dive into the pool....which he would never do... he was terrified of water."

-The family has gone silent, indeed not sure they ever asserted the murder theory, (it seemed to have originated from one specific party pal.)

- The " Justice for.." FB page has turned into a simple remembrance/ tribute page with lots of references to Luke's fondness for alcohol binges.

[Moonsterk]

^ Complaining about posters making suppositions, and countering them with a post full of suppositions.....interesting tactic.

Anyway, one thing you got right is no news about the autopsy report being released yet (I did a search last night). But then you spoiled even that by making a supposition that this means it supports the RTP vrsion of events. Oh well.....

What is more probable is that an altercation took place, the guy was beaten up and chucked in the pool to drown. Not murder per se but manslaughter.

If one was to accept your speculative scenario, it would be murder, not manslaughter. if someone is beaten and then thrown into a pool and left to drown, then the intent is to take their life, therefore it's murder. No motive, no suspects, no witnesses, no nothing and an autopsy announcing death by drowning. How about this scenario, the possibility of death by misadventure?

The friends and sister have gone very quiet. I wonder why? Also, the friends distanced themselves from the incident very quickly when confronted by police but then allegedly went out of their way to photograph the corpse (secretly) and then announce to the world they discovered marks not consistent with the police report. Now, what is their medical training to be able to make such remarks and did they have a copy of the autopsy and police reports to enable them to make such a comparison. Only asking.

well you lost me there, what exactly were you asking ?

does someone need a degree in the medical profession to take a photo

as for "going quiet" why are you posting if you have heard nothing new

run along

" Run along.."? How condescending.

No, you don't need a degree to take a photo, but making accusations of murder from pictures of a bruised up body certainly requires a bit of expertise, usually called a coroner- and even one of those would be hesitant to make assumptions from pictures.

The boy fell, and got bruises and scratches because he was drunk. It's part of the substance abuse culture to want to blame others when bad behavior leads to dire consequences.

[Si Thea01]

^ Complaining about posters making suppositions, and countering them with a post full of suppositions.....interesting tactic.

Anyway, one thing you got right is no news about the autopsy report being released yet (I did a search last night). But then you spoiled even that by making a supposition that this means it supports the RTP vrsion of events. Oh well.....

What is more probable is that an altercation took place, the guy was beaten up and chucked in the pool to drown. Not murder per se but manslaughter.

If one was to accept your speculative scenario, it would be murder, not manslaughter. if someone is beaten and then thrown into a pool and left to drown, then the intent is to take their life, therefore it's murder. No motive, no suspects, no witnesses, no nothing and an autopsy announcing death by drowning. How about this scenario, the possibility of death by misadventure?

The friends and sister have gone very quiet. I wonder why? Also, the friends distanced themselves from the incident very quickly when confronted by police but then allegedly went out of their way to photograph the corpse (secretly) and then announce to the world they discovered marks not consistent with the police report. Now, what is their medical training to be able to make such remarks and did they have a copy of the autopsy and police reports to enable them to make such a comparison. Only asking.

well you lost me there, what exactly were you asking ?

does someone need a degree in the medical profession to take a photo

as for "going quiet" why are you posting if you have heard nothing new

run along

[Khun Han]

Moonsterk,

"One fact is the UK autopsy that was to definitively "prove" it was murder has not been produced, so I'm left to think it concurred with the Thai police version of events- which is simply their theory of course."

Why are you left to think that, when it could be being kept back for all sorts of reasons?

You continue to complain about speculation that you don't agree with, whilst adding plenty of your own speculation. Bizarre.

[Khun Han]

"The boy fell, and got bruises and scratches because he was drunk."

Nothing quite like posting pure speculation as fact, is there?

[Moonsterk]

"The boy fell, and got bruises and scratches because he was drunk."

Nothing quite like posting pure speculation as fact, is there?

That is the police version of the incident which is a logical summation of the injuries and death

How's this for speculation - Luke was murdered, we all know it because, well just you know.. well because. And....well.....yeah, someone else was murdered 16 months ago- fer sure..

Where is the UK coroner report that was to prove this alleged murder? It was to have been available 3 days ago- I feel quite sure had there been an iota of evidence disproving the police accounting, it would have been plastered all over various social media.

Instead, platitudes involving tattoos, clouds and sunrises abound on various FB pages.

( Sunrises reportedly viewed on tail end of all night benders..)

[Moonsterk]

Moonsterk,

"One fact is the UK autopsy that was to definitively "prove" it was murder has not been produced, so I'm left to think it concurred with the Thai police version of events- which is simply their theory of course."

Why are you left to think that, when it could be being kept back for all sorts of reasons?

You continue to complain about speculation that you don't agree with, whilst adding plenty of your own speculation. Bizarre.

Maybe because my speculation is based on information available, ( and not a desire for fame.) Is there a UK coroner report available? It was widely reported there would be, last Monday. Where is it? Why has chatter on FB pages stopped mentioning murder...

These are facts which lead me to a conclusion, the UK coroner has found no evidence disproving the Police accounting.

A lot of what I've read is coming to a conclusion from both a desire for it to be so, and assumptions; "Luke was bruised, so it proves murder.."Luke would never____ so it proves murder..."Luke blah-blah...proves murder" is what is speculative.

Luke was a alcohol abuser, near a body of water is what all known facts indicate. That he was monkeying around at a height above concrete around a body of water is a logical conclusion from injuries and death by drowning and with no other evidence to point to a second party involvement.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Moonsterk

[Khun Han]

^ Try reading my replies again and answering them instead of going off on all sorts of unrelated tangents.

Not addressed to Moonsterk in particular, but just throwing it out there: there was some (unsubstantiated) speculation earlier in this thread, based on the fact that Luke had taken drugs the week before, that he was 'high' at the time of his death. And we can find many reports that drugs are freely available on Koh Tao, often being sold quite openly. Thailand has VERY strict anti- drugs laws, yet Koh Tao has an unofficial exemption from them. Why is that? Why are these highly criminal activities by business owners on Koh Tao ignored by Thailand's higher authorities? Such activities elsewhere, conducted so openly, would result in the most severe legal penalties. Why not on Koh Tao?

Edited February 4, 2016 by Khun Han

[luke000]

Maybe because my speculation is based on information available, ( and not a desire for fame.) Is there a UK coroner report available? It was widely reported there would be, last Monday. Where is it? Why has chatter on FB pages stopped mentioning murder...

These are facts which lead me to a conclusion, the UK coroner has found no evidence disproving the Police accounting.

The autopsy was carried out in the U.K .

If it was straight forward case of accidental death, the coroner would have given his ruling , made public and the body released for burial.

If there were suspicions of it being a criminal case, then there would be further enquires, done in private and the family would have been told not to release any information, because they could put any future Court case evidence in jeopardy

[Moonsterk]

^ Try reading my replies again and answering them instead of going off on all sorts of unrelated tangents.

Not addressed to Moonsterk in particular, but just throwing it out there: there was some (unsubstantiated) speculation earlier in this thread, based on the fact that Luke had taken drugs the week before, that he was 'high' at the time of his death. And we can find many reports that drugs are freely available on Koh Tao, often being sold quite openly. Thailand has VERY strict anti- drugs laws, yet Koh Tao has an unofficial exemption from them. Why is that? Why are these highly criminal activities by business owners on Koh Tao ignored by Thailand's higher authorities? Such activities elsewhere, conducted so openly, would result in the most severe legal penalties. Why not on Koh Tao?

You asked how I reached my conclusions and I have written them out clearly.

Now you are attempting to lay blame on Thai authorities for allowing drugs? Is this more of the substance abuse culture of blaming others when it all goes bad? Why don't you start a thread about it- seems a bit off topic on this thread seeing as how you were just complaining about the perceived unfairness of Luke being accused of being high as well as drunk.

Maybe because my speculation is based on information available, ( and not a desire for fame.) Is there a UK coroner report available? It was widely reported there would be, last Monday. Where is it? Why has chatter on FB pages stopped mentioning murder...

These are facts which lead me to a conclusion, the UK coroner has found no evidence disproving the Police accounting.

A lot of what I've read is coming to a conclusion from both a desire for it to be so, and assumptions; "Luke was bruised, so it proves murder.."Luke would never____ so it proves murder..."Luke blah-blah...proves murder" is what is speculative.

Luke was a alcohol abuser, near a body of water is what all known facts indicate. That he was monkeying around at a height above concrete around a body of water is a logical conclusion from injuries and death by drowning and with no other evidence to point to a second party involvement.

"The boy fell, and got bruises and scratches because he was drunk."

Nothing quite like posting pure speculation as fact, is there?

That is the police version of the incident which is a logical summation of the injuries and death

How's this for speculation - Luke was murdered, we all know it because, well just you know.. well because. And....well.....yeah, someone else was murdered 16 months ago- fer sure..

Where is the UK coroner report that was to prove this alleged murder? It was to have been available 3 days ago- I feel quite sure had there been an iota of evidence disproving the police accounting, it would have been plastered all over various social media.

Instead, platitudes involving tattoos, clouds and sunrises abound on various FB pages.

( Sunrises reportedly viewed on tail end of all night benders..)

[Moonsterk]

Maybe because my speculation is based on information available, ( and not a desire for fame.) Is there a UK coroner report available? It was widely reported there would be, last Monday. Where is it? Why has chatter on FB pages stopped mentioning murder...

These are facts which lead me to a conclusion, the UK coroner has found no evidence disproving the Police accounting.

The autopsy was carried out in the U.K .

If it was straight forward case of accidental death, the coroner would have given his ruling , made public and the body released for burial.

If there were suspicions of it being a criminal case, then there would be further enquires, done in private and the family would have been told not to release any information, because they could put any future Court case evidence in jeopardy

Really? Because an autopsy was carried out in Thailand before the body was released. Now I know a UK coroner was going to review the results- so the coroner disagreed with the CoD as drowning and ordered a whole new autopsy? Well, that is news. Why has not one media outlet reported it?

Please, please tell us how you know a full autopsy was carried out in the UK too? I don't think you do know- and this is par for the course of the weak-assed presumptions rampant in this case you don't know an autopsy from a hole in the ground.

So, I must ask, what information would need to be kept secret regarding any legal procedures- in Thailand? (I certainly hope the family has not put their trust in the FCO- they are all about preserving trade and the hell with citizens as Kirsty Jones mother will surely attest to.)

I note the FB page is now planning for a burial, and makes no mention of a new autopsy ordered by the UK coroner, information that would not divulge any.... secrets.

[bannork]

^ Try reading my replies again and answering them instead of going off on all sorts of unrelated tangents.

Not addressed to Moonsterk in particular, but just throwing it out there: there was some (unsubstantiated) speculation earlier in this thread, based on the fact that Luke had taken drugs the week before, that he was 'high' at the time of his death. And we can find many reports that drugs are freely available on Koh Tao, often being sold quite openly. Thailand has VERY strict anti- drugs laws, yet Koh Tao has an unofficial exemption from them. Why is that? Why are these highly criminal activities by business owners on Koh Tao ignored by Thailand's higher authorities? Such activities elsewhere, conducted so openly, would result in the most severe legal penalties. Why not on Koh Tao?

Weren't Koh Pha-gnan's Full Moon parties the mecca of hedonistic white recreational drug users? Or has the heat been turned on them by the police?

Islands are perfect for anything goes, the smaller the better I guess, less people to pay off.

[Moonsterk]

Thunder26, on 09 Jan 2016 - 02:15, said:

If I am not wrong this is his facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/luke.miller.319?fref=ts

On 30th December 2015 he posted that he had gone on a 2-day bender with mushroom shakes. It will be interesting to hear what he died of. Sad, all the same.

Good post! Reading the comments on his face book page revealed that Luke had a history of, let's say, poor judgement.

Try making that comment on one unrelated group discussion FB page. " Go kill yourself..," and other remarks of that ilk were the response to " What's the evidence he was murdered?"

Almost like they need it to have been a murder- his self admitted, even boastful poor judgment could not possibly have been cause of his demise.

[Kiwisailor]

Open verdict recorded by UK Coroner -"This verdict is due to insufficient findings do to the embalming" From Justice for Luke facebook page

[KunMatt]

Open verdict recorded by UK Coroner -"This verdict is due to insufficient findings do to the embalming" From Justice for Luke facebook page

Wonder what happened to the CCTV footage the family said they were getting or the photos of the injuries on the body? From that last post by Nicola it seems that the whole suspicionof Luke's death is based on past incidents on Thailand.

[stephenterry]

IMO, if it had been accidental there would have been witnesses plus Cctv as evidence. That's logical. The absence of such is not credible. Add the open verdict of the UK coroner's report plus photos taken by his friends, and it is a suspicious death.

[SoiBiker]

IMO, if it had been accidental there would have been witnesses plus Cctv as evidence. That's logical. The absence of such is not credible. Add the open verdict of the UK coroner's report plus photos taken by his friends, and it is a suspicious death.

I don't follow your logic at all. Could you elaborate? How does the absence of witnesses mean it can't be an accident?

[stephenterry]

IMO, if it had been accidental there would have been witnesses plus Cctv as evidence. That's logical. The absence of such is not credible. Add the open verdict of the UK coroner's report plus photos taken by his friends, and it is a suspicious death.

I don't follow your logic at all. Could you elaborate? How does the absence of witnesses mean it can't be an accident?

How long you lived in Thailand? There would be any number of Thais recounting the evening's progress. But another wall of silence. Not even ONE person willing to speak out or interviewed by the RTP. As to CCTV, that's also mysteriously not available.

Sorry, IMO, this death is suspicious, and I hope the family and friends pursue it, until they get the truth.

[kcirtapyelrah]

^ Complaining about posters making suppositions, and countering them with a post full of suppositions.....interesting tactic.

Anyway, one thing you got right is no news about the autopsy report being released yet (I did a search last night). But then you spoiled even that by making a supposition that this means it supports the RTP vrsion of events. Oh well.....

At least I said my theory was a supposition and did not state it as a fact or dismiss likely scenarios as "impossible"

What is more probable is that an altercation took place, the guy was beaten up and chucked in the pool to drown. Not murder per se but manslaughter.

How it that more probable than a known alcohol abuser having an accident?

You know, very well, that he wouldn't have attempted such a stupid act if he wasn't egged on, your making a mockery out of this whole sad case.

This post ^ gets the reward for supposition. Sorry, even if you knew the guy very well, you cannot read his mind and have no idea as to his motives.

But I'll add another supposition of my own- well no, I won't- far too much of it already on the thread.

One fact is the UK autopsy that was to definitively "prove" it was murder has not been produced, so I'm left to think it concurred with the Thai police version of events- which is simply their theory of course.

A climb up a few meters ( not knowing if he made it to the top or not) , a tumble down- scratched from barbed wire that was around the shack, bruises from the tumble and a hard landing, and his head hit on the edge of a pool, and simply was knocked out and rolled into the pool and drowned. A very unfortunate accident but one that was in no small way caused by his own behavior.

There is no proof whatsoever he was climbing up so as to, quoting a friend's post " dive into the pool....which he would never do... he was terrified of water."

-The family has gone silent, indeed not sure they ever asserted the murder theory, (it seemed to have originated from one specific party pal.)

- The " Justice for.." FB page has turned into a simple remembrance/ tribute page with lots of references to Luke's fondness for alcohol binges.

I was referring to the drunken fool climbing a shop front to sit on a bike in the link "SiSePuede419" posted and not Luke Miller, the implication was that his link is making a mockery of the whole sad case of Luke Miller. I don't profess to know anything about the night in question, but based on past events I am very suspicious of the RTP, the justice system and the powers that be in Thailand. If you were directly involved i.e. a direct member of you family was the person in question, you wouldn't be such a one sided verbal windbag on the subject.

[SoiBiker]

IMO, if it had been accidental there would have been witnesses plus Cctv as evidence. That's logical. The absence of such is not credible. Add the open verdict of the UK coroner's report plus photos taken by his friends, and it is a suspicious death.

I don't follow your logic at all. Could you elaborate? How does the absence of witnesses mean it can't be an accident?

How long you lived in Thailand? There would be any number of Thais recounting the evening's progress. But another wall of silence. Not even ONE person willing to speak out or interviewed by the RTP. As to CCTV, that's also mysteriously not available.

Sorry, IMO, this death is suspicious, and I hope the family and friends pursue it, until they get the truth.

That's not really a logical explanation, is it?

I'm not sure how the time I've lived in Thailand is relevant.

Personally, I take the Occam's razor approach. Dead guy in a pool? Probably drowned.

[stephenterry]

IMO, if it had been accidental there would have been witnesses plus Cctv as evidence. That's logical. The absence of such is not credible. Add the open verdict of the UK coroner's report plus photos taken by his friends, and it is a suspicious death.

I don't follow your logic at all. Could you elaborate? How does the absence of witnesses mean it can't be an accident?

How long you lived in Thailand? There would be any number of Thais recounting the evening's progress. But another wall of silence. Not even ONE person willing to speak out or interviewed by the RTP. As to CCTV, that's also mysteriously not available.

Sorry, IMO, this death is suspicious, and I hope the family and friends pursue it, until they get the truth.

That's not really a logical explanation, is it?

I'm not sure how the time I've lived in Thailand is relevant.

Personally, I take the Occam's razor approach. Dead guy in a pool? Probably drowned.

Up to you. However, please take into account the UK coroner's verdict which was 'open'. Clearly he/she must be in possession of more insight than you, yet couldn't reach a simple conclusion like yourself . So b*llo*ks to Occam's razor.

[SoiBiker]

IMO, if it had been accidental there would have been witnesses plus Cctv as evidence. That's logical. The absence of such is not credible. Add the open verdict of the UK coroner's report plus photos taken by his friends, and it is a suspicious death.

I don't follow your logic at all. Could you elaborate? How does the absence of witnesses mean it can't be an accident?

How long you lived in Thailand? There would be any number of Thais recounting the evening's progress. But another wall of silence. Not even ONE person willing to speak out or interviewed by the RTP. As to CCTV, that's also mysteriously not available.

Sorry, IMO, this death is suspicious, and I hope the family and friends pursue it, until they get the truth.

That's not really a logical explanation, is it?

I'm not sure how the time I've lived in Thailand is relevant.

Personally, I take the Occam's razor approach. Dead guy in a pool? Probably drowned.

Up to you. However, please take into account the UK coroner's verdict which was 'open'. Clearly he/she must be in possession of more insight than you, yet couldn't reach a simple conclusion like yourself . So b*llo*ks to Occam's razor.

That most likely just means that there was insufficient evidence to draw any solid conclusions.

[TheLobster]

"An open verdict is NOT an answer that we are happy with nor one Luke will be laid to rest with. This verdict is due to insufficient findings do to the embalming and so we wait with baited breath for the reports from the Thai authorities. An open verdict can also be given on the basis that a death is suspicious but there are insufficient findings to ascertain why or how it has happened. So our fight will continue until we get the answers we know are there. There have been too many stories told to us already, to many lies and too many fabrications. We are all prepared to fight for Luke and we will get answers." Nichola Gissing Justice for Luke (Facebook)

[SoiBiker]

Seems less like a quest for the truth and more like a desire to get an answer they want to hear. Understandable given the tragic circumstances, I guess, but I'm not sure all the talk of murder and conspiracy is ultimately going to help them find peace.

[Khun Han]

^ You make a good point that the easy way out for Luke's family and friends is to just accept the accidental death scenario, and at least some of them must realise this. The fact that they are not doing so is telling and pertinent.

A British coroner does not come to an 'open verdict' decision comfortably or easily. Such a verdict on a death that occurred on home soil often opens up a big can of worms. If the UK police had been pushing an accidental death scenario, they would very likely have to re-open the case. Obviously, the Thai police did the investigating (fwiw), and they are not going to take this any further.

This is going to remain a suspicious death. And I strongly suspect that the suspicious deaths will continue on Koh Tao and elsewhere until Thailand gets a government that is willing to tackle the Mafias that create these scenarios. It won't be anytime soon though, because the current incumbents appear to be part of the problem rather than offering any solutions.