Uk Birth Registration - Daughter Born Los

[vent-it-los]

I'm married to a Thai national and we've a single daughter of seven months. I'm a British national. I've been told by another British national that it is of the utmost necessity to get the birth registered in the UK and also get the five year UK passport for the infant. In addition to this i've been told that when my daughter is ready to travel to the UK she must travel on her Thai Passport in order for future travel to be non-problematic. Is all i've typed correct and is there any other information I should be aware of? I know of the costs which are excessive, but any other info re travel for the kiddy? THANX.

VENT-IT-LOS.

[vinny]

See also Consular Birth Registration.

She should use her Thai passport to exit and enter Thailand.

A British baby may apply for a British passport or/and a certificate of entitlement to the right of abode to be placed in her Thai passport. She should use this to enter/exit the UK.

Edited October 18, 2006 by vinny

[Maizefarmer]

I'm married to a Thai national and we've a single daughter of seven months. I'm a British national. I've been told by another British national that it is of the utmost necessity to get the birth registered in the UK and also get the five year UK passport for the infant. In addition to this i've been told that when my daughter is ready to travel to the UK she must travel on her Thai Passport in order for future travel to be non-problematic. Is all i've typed correct and is there any other information I should be aware of? I know of the costs which are excessive, but any other info re travel for the kiddy? THANX.

VENT-IT-LOS.

I'm not clear at what age you are talking about when you say "when your daughter travels she must travel on her Thai Passoprt)

In any event - this is how my kids travel: they leave and enter Thailand on their Thai Passports and they enter the Uk or where they are going, on their foreign passports. They then leave that country on their foreign passports and come back into Thailand on the Thai passport.

If its the UK and she has a UK passport she will have to enter the UK on her UK passport as the Embassy will not issues a Visa to a dual National that holds a UK passport. Its the same in the USA - in fact not only will the USA not issue a visa, it is illegal to enter the USA on a foreign passport if you are a USA passport holder.

And last but not least, its just common sense to go into the UK or USA on your UK or USA passport - it gives you all the rights you are entitled to as a citizen of that country.

You will need to have the birth registered in the UK before she is 16 years of age (i think that's still the case) if you want her to be able to exercise her default right to UK citizenship. Leave it till after 16 years of age, and there are a whole set of new hoops & hurdles to jump through (though it is still possible in just about all cases). So yes - the sooner its done the easier and better it will be.

Tim

Tim

Edited October 18, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[the scouser]

If its the UK and she has a UK passport she will have to enter the UK on her UK passport as the Embassy will not issues a Visa to a dual National that holds a UK passport.

The embassy will issue a visa to a dual national if he/she chooses to travel on the non-British passport.

You will need to have the birth registered in the UK before she is 16 years of age (i think that's still the case) if you want her to be able to exercise her default right to UK citizenship. Leave it till after 16 years of age, and there are a whole set of new hoops & hurdles to jump through (though it is still possible in just about all cases).

There is no requirement for the birth to be registered before the child's 16th birthday: in fact there's no requirement for the birth to be registered at all.

For the OP's daughter to be automatically British, he will have to demonstrate that he is married to the mother and that he is British otherwise than by descent (for births on or after 1.7.06, it's sufficient to just show that the father is British otherwise than by descent). Once that is established, the child will have a life-long entitlement to British citizenship and you are under no compulsion to register the birth with the British authorities, but it is beneficial to do so as the OP's daughter will be then be issued with a UK-format birth certificate. Registration of the birth will have to be at the British embassy (see the link Vinny gave).

Moved to visas and migration to other countries forum.

Scouse.

[Maizefarmer]

If its the UK and she has a UK passport she will have to enter the UK on her UK passport as the Embassy will not issues a Visa to a dual National that holds a UK passport.

The embassy will issue a visa to a dual national if he/she chooses to travel on the non-British passport.

You will need to have the birth registered in the UK before she is 16 years of age (i think that's still the case) if you want her to be able to exercise her default right to UK citizenship. Leave it till after 16 years of age, and there are a whole set of new hoops & hurdles to jump through (though it is still possible in just about all cases).

There is no requirement for the birth to be registered before the child's 16th birthday: in fact there's no requirement for the birth to be registered at all.

For the OP's daughter to be automatically British, he will have to demonstrate that he is married to the mother and that he is British otherwise than by descent (for births on or after 1.7.06, it's sufficient to just show that the father is British otherwise than by descent). Once that is established, the child will have a life-long entitlement to British citizenship and you are under no compulsion to register the birth with the British authorities, but it is beneficial to do so as the OP's daughter will be then be issued with a UK-format birth certificate. Registration of the birth will have to be at the British embassy (see the link Vinny gave).

Moved to visas and migration to other countries forum.

Scouse.

Sorry - I am going to take issue with you on both those points:

I have a a daughter on a Thai and UK passport. She wanted to travel to the UK on her Thai passport and applied for a Visa to do so.

She was declined and told to travel on her UK passport.

Secondly - when applying for her British Passport one of the documents that was supplied amongst the pile given to us by the Embassy was a VA 217 REGISTRATION OF OF OVERSEAS BIRTH - that information is drawn off the Thai birth certificate, which also has to be supplied - of course to demonstrate parentage. Note:my comment here is in respect of getting a UK passport for a child - otherwise what the need for birth certificates and reg is/are is another matter.

As for been able to apply for UK citizenship at any stage, after the age of 16, - yes, yes, all parent know that ....... my contribution was really in respect of children and perhaps should have put it in context and qualified what I was saying by adding that it is from the age of 16 onwards that the child can no longer travel on their parents passport - at least in respect of UK children or are you going to tell me that I am wrong on that as well, er Scouser!

Tim

Edited October 18, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[the scouser]

I have a a daughter on a Thai and UK passport. She wanted to travel to the UK on her Thai passport and applied for a Visa to do so. She was declined and told to travel on her UK passport.

I doubt very much if she was declined, i.e. refused a visa. It is more likely that they adopted the common sense approach and advised her not bother as she also has a British passport. Can you please provide a link to the relevant legislation which states that the British authorities are not allowed to endorse a visa in the non-British passport of a dual national? Although not a visa, per se, the British authorities will endorse a certficate of entitlement to the right of abode in a non-British passport which confirms the holder's right to live and settle in the UK (see Vinny's link).

Secondly - when applying for her British Passport one of the documents that was supplied amongst the pile given to us by the Embassy was a VA 217 REGISTRATION OF OF OVERSEAS BIRTH - that information is drawn off the Thai birth certificate, which also has to be supplied - of course to demonstrate parentage. Note: my comment here is in respect of getting a UK passport for a child - otherwise what the need for birth certificates and reg is/are is another matter.

As I said in my intial post, registering the child's birth with the embassy is not a prerequisite of the child being issued with a British passport. The embassy requires to see the Thai birth certificate, the parents' marriage certificate (where appropriate), and the birth certificate of the parent transmitting British citizenship. As the British embassy website says:

Birth registration is not compulsory

You might care to check out the link, again provided by Vinny.

As for been able to apply for UK citizenship at any stage, after the age of 16, - yes, yes, all parent know that ....... my contribution was really in respect of children and perhaps should have put it in context and qualified what I was saying by adding that it is from the age of 16 onwards that the child can no longer travel on their parents passport - at least in respect of UK children

Children can no longer travel on a parent's passport. The law changed about 7-8 years ago. See The UK Passport Agency website

or are you going to tell me that I am wrong on that as well, er Scouser!

I believe I just have.

Scouse.

[Maizefarmer]

I feel almost as if I am providing you with the chance to use this forum as an advertising platform for your services................

No she was declined - it was made clear to us that she had to travel on her Britsh passport, I am quite clear on that as I subsequently tried to challenge them on the desicion, believeing as you say that she was not obliged to. What I will say though is I am talking about a minor and the appliction of the rule may well be different in respect of adults, or inrespect of minor travelling alone - which on that occassion she was (she was joining up with mom who was already in the UK).

But while you comment on the subject, I'll take this oppurtnity to ask you to educate me - what is mean't when you say that a visa in a non-British passport cannot be endorsed in the case of a dual national (and dual national meaning in this case the 2nd passport is a UK passport - Correct/Incorrect)

As for kids not been able to travel on parents passports - my daughter traveled to the UK with mom in December 2005 on moms passport (age 7years 4 months), so please do not tell me I am wrong - I have the experiance (well mom does) and I have the documentry evidance to demonstrate it.

For the record - although she now has her UK passport, she is still in moms passport (but that is another matter altogether as when the passport is renewed in Jan 2010 or 2011 - cant remember of-hand unles I dig it out and look - it will of course no longer include junior)

Tim

[manjara]

If its the UK and she has a UK passport she will have to enter the UK on her UK passport as the Embassy will not issues a Visa to a dual National that holds a UK passport.

The embassy will issue a visa to a dual national if he/she chooses to travel on the non-British passport.

You will need to have the birth registered in the UK before she is 16 years of age (i think that's still the case) if you want her to be able to exercise her default right to UK citizenship. Leave it till after 16 years of age, and there are a whole set of new hoops & hurdles to jump through (though it is still possible in just about all cases).

There is no requirement for the birth to be registered before the child's 16th birthday: in fact there's no requirement for the birth to be registered at all.

For the OP's daughter to be automatically British, he will have to demonstrate that he is married to the mother and that he is British otherwise than by descent (for births on or after 1.7.06, it's sufficient to just show that the father is British otherwise than by descent). Once that is established, the child will have a life-long entitlement to British citizenship and you are under no compulsion to register the birth with the British authorities, but it is beneficial to do so as the OP's daughter will be then be issued with a UK-format birth certificate. Registration of the birth will have to be at the British embassy (see the link Vinny gave).

Moved to visas and migration to other countries forum.

Scouse.

I probably asked this question before on here for my first daughter, but as I've now had a second, I'd like to know how easy it is to get them both UK Passports.

My first daughter is now 2.5 years old and the second is 9 months. My wife and I were living together, but not officially married at the time of the first birth, but we married in Thailand shortly afterwards (3 months). My name is on the birth certificate for both daughters. We have been lving together all the time since before both kids, and have made one extended visit (4 months) to the UK with daughter no.1.

Looking at the forms from the embassy, it seemed that it would be subject to a decision from the UK foreign office, i.e. it wasn't easily approved, in the case of my first daughter, born before we were married.

If I apply for both daughters at the same time, will that make it easier or is each case treated individually?

Is there a chance that one will be accpeted and the other rejected?

cheers

/Paul

[the scouser]

I feel almost as if I am providing you with the chance to use this forum as an advertising platform for your services................

If you check my member status, you'll see I'm in the sponsors group. If you have issues with me posting here, then that's your look out. I would advise you to use your ignore function to block all my posts.

But while you comment on the subject, I'll take this oppurtnity to ask you to educate me - what is mean't when you say that a visa in a non-British passport cannot be endorsed in the case of a dual national (and dual national meaning in this case the 2nd passport is a UK passport - Correct/Incorrect)

If you re-read my posts, you'll find I didn't say that. You stated that:

the Embassy will not issues a Visa to a dual National that holds a UK passport

and my point is that this is just not so. I invited you to provide me with a reference to the legislation which backs up your assertion, but I was toying with you, and I know full well that there is none. In other words, the is no legal impediment to the British authorities placing a visa in the non-UK passport of a dual national.

my daughter traveled to the UK with mom in December 2005 on moms passport (age 7years 4 months), so please do not tell me I am wrong

I should have been clearer. Yes, a child may travel on a parent's passport if they are already included in it. Once the passport expires, they will have to get their own irrespective of their age.

I probably asked this question before on here for my first daughter, but as I've now had a second, I'd like to know how easy it is to get them both UK Passports.

My first daughter is now 2.5 years old and the second is 9 months. My wife and I were living together, but not officially married at the time of the first birth, but we married in Thailand shortly afterwards (3 months). My name is on the birth certificate for both daughters. We have been lving together all the time since before both kids, and have made one extended visit (4 months) to the UK with daughter no.1.

Looking at the forms from the embassy, it seemed that it would be subject to a decision from the UK foreign office, i.e. it wasn't easily approved, in the case of my first daughter, born before we were married.

If I apply for both daughters at the same time, will that make it easier or is each case treated individually?

Is there a chance that one will be accpeted and the other rejected?

cheers

/Paul

Paul,

As you were married at the time of your second daughter's birth, she will automatically be British providing that you are British otherwise than by descent. On the assumption that you are British by virtue of having been born in the UK, you will fall into this category.

With regard to your first daughter, it is likely that your subsequent marriage will have legitimised her birth, but you will have to attend the embassy to complete a domicile questionnaire in order to establish that you have maintained some links to the UK.

As a personal preference, I'd kill two birds with one stone and submit all the papers in respect of both daughters at the same time. Your second daughter's application should be a formality and the first, as you say, will take longer as the matter has to be referred back to London.

It is unusual for someone to be deemed non-domiciled, but if your first daughter were to be refused British citizenship, she could seek registration as a British citizen (not the same as registration of the birth) from the Home Office. On the assumption that both of your daughters get their British passports, they will both be British by descent which means that any children they may have in the future, if born outside of the UK, will not have an automatic entitlement to British citizenship.

Scouse.

[samran]

I feel almost as if I am providing you with the chance to use this forum as an advertising platform for your services................

If you check my member status, you'll see I'm in the sponsors group. If you have issues with me posting here, then that's your look out. I would advise you to use your ignore function to block all my posts.

although he is too modest to admit it, ole scouse was an immigration officer at Gatwick and sometime ECO at British diplomatic posts before going into private enterprise.

He's also helped numerous members, free of charge by vitue of his kind advice on this board, which others would charge an arm and a leg for. I short, he really knows his stuff, and the immigration rules.

He is also 6 foot 2 inches, weight 185 pounds, and is an Aquairian.

[Maizefarmer]

My comment regards "advertising" was very much tounge in cheek, I note though you didn't miss the oppurtunity to ......forget it, now I making the same mistake.

Back to the ORIGINAL members question...

Having just taken the liberty to phone a UK mission staff member in Bkk, and relaying to them the orignal question (word for word), devoid of all the extra issues now raised by my learned friend (lawyers are great ones for complicating issues and ading a whole host of variables whether or not they are applicable to the case in hand)

Not withstanding the rules as they are written, the relpy was as follows (and the assumption is made that the minors parent(s) is/are British Citizens with right of abode, which is what the memebr stated - and from that I make the assumption that if they were holding dependant territory passport with restirction on right of UK abode they would of course know that the issue is reliavnt in respect of their children and have made a note of that in their original contribution):

- your child is entitled to a UK passport with right of abode. Marriage is not the issue.

- the Bangkok UK embassy will not issue visa's to children who are dual Thai/UK nationals and who

have a UK passport, They will be told to travel on their UK passports.

- in the case of dual Thai/UK minors who do not have a UK passport buthave their Thai passport,

their passport will be stamped with words to the effect that leave to enter is granted (something

along those lines - I dont recall the exact words) Again let me state the assumption is made

that all matters relating to the entitlement to UK nationality/or abode are clear.

- in the case of a child who has no passport, the embassy will issue the minor with a restricted

passport (5 years or otherwise), or in the case of an urgent need to travel will stamp the parents

passport accordingly (i.e. will allow the child to travel on the parents passport).

- the case of a dual national (Thai / UK) who is for example in the USA and needs to or is travelling

from there to the UK but only has a Thai passport - then yes, a visa will be issued

Moving on to birth registration.........

- there is no need to register birth when traveling to the UK, irrepsective of weather the minor is on

a UK passport, a Thai passport or stamped into a parents passport.

- its no need to register the birth when applying for a UK passport, but of course proof of birth must

be supplied (to verify parentage)

The issue of 16years of age.

- scouser is correct, it is no longer the requirement that births need to be registerd by the 16th

birthday as part of any formailtiy related to travel or the issuance of a passport

- 16 years of age is no longer a requirement in respect of dual UK/Thai minor applying of a UK

passport

- 16 years of age is only relivant in so far as it used to be the limit up untill which a UK child could

travel on their parents passport.

Lastly

- dual UK/Thai applicants exercising their "right" to apply for a British - there is a differance between the way adult applicants are dealt with and children are deal't with. In the case of children their is never any consideration of the parents domicility (i.e. how long they have resided outside the UK), but in the case of an dult who, for example only applies when he/she is say 40 or 50 years of old, they will find that when applying they will need to jump through alot more hops and hurdles to get their UK citizenship and/or passport formalised.

In respect of the need to get things done by the age of 16, I was incorrect and and my learned friend Scouser's correction is noted.

I repeat what I said in my first posting:

Leave it till after 16 years of age, and there are a whole set of new hoops & hurdles to jump through (though it is still possible in just about all cases). So yes - the sooner its done the easier and better it will be.

With respect to everything els I said (e.g. the issue of getting avisa stamped into a passport ect ect....), I stand by it - not withstanding the actual written rule, it is my experaince and it is what has been told to me this evening how things are practised by the Uk embassy in Thailand.

Tim

[the scouser]

I'm not going to re-hash all the arguments, but suffice to say that if you genuinely did speak to a member of the UK mission, they're in dire need of attending a training course.

Scouse.

[Maizefarmer]

You may beleive what you want - but that aside, well - fine, you feel its wrong advise/comment - okay, fair enough - please share with me (and for the benefit of all others) just what in the above you feel is incorrect and wrong.

I really would appreciate your input and corrections.

Tim

[samran]

- the Bangkok UK embassy will not issue visa's to children who are dual Thai/UK nationals and who

have a UK passport, They will be told to travel on their UK passports.

- in the case of dual Thai/UK minors who do not have a UK passport buthave their Thai passport,

their passport will be stamped with words to the effect that leave to enter is granted (something

along those lines - I dont recall the exact words) Again let me state the assumption is made

that all matters relating to the entitlement to UK nationality/or abode are clear.

It is a bit contradictory, cause the British embassy will stick an 'right of abode' sticker in the Thai passport for those with British nationality. Technically, I think it falls into the category of "visa's" - or entry clearance in the British parlance. Plenty parents of dual nationals have posted on this site saying that they got the sticker in the Thai PP as insurance for when they go through Thai immigration (not all are confortable doing the passport swapsie trick), but they also have the British PP as well for when they travel.

[geoffphuket]

I've recently been in touch (by PM) with two of our members that obtained British citizenship for their children born out of wedlock in Thailand.

They were advised that there's no-longer any need to prove domicility regarding the UK and that not being married is no-longer an issue - this was changed sometime around June I believe.... Apparently the British Embassy website had not been updated to reflect the changes.

I can provide a phone number of the embassy staff concerned with dealing with the application - should anyone want it please PM me.

geoffphuket

[Maizefarmer]

Samran raises a valid point - and I have to eat humble pie big time on this - because in all honesty, while making a big issue that a visa will not be issued (and I stand by that - it will not be issued), I was told at the same time about the Right of Abode entry sticker/stamp, but failed to mention it in my earlier posting.

Tim

Edited October 18, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[samran]

Samran raises a valid point - and I have to eat humble pie big time on this - because in all honesty, while making a big issue that a visa will not be issued (and I stand by that - it will not be issued), I was told at the same time about the Right of Abode entry sticker/stamp, but failed to mention it in my earlier posting.

Tim

I think it is a technicality really, but not without precedence. Scouse will know for sure in the case of the UK, but in the case of the US for instance, embassies are not able to issue visa for those who have dual nationality.

I had a friend who married an American woman, and they tried to get visas in their childrens non-US passports, and the visa applications were rejected as the children have been registered as US nationals.

As I understand, our little one as to be careful travelling to OZ or NZ. As a citizen of both, while she (like the EU) has the unrestricted right to live in the other country on only one passport (ie Aussies and Kiwi's can move freely between the two), our daughter still needs to enter each country on her respective passports. If she'd tried entering OZ on a NZ passport, she'd have trouble, as Australia does't issue visa's it its own citizens.

[the scouser]

All the answers that the OP needs are contained in the links posted by Vinny. It was you who muddied the waters by posting misleading comment. I, therefore, do not intend to re-hash what has already been said.

I am, however, concerned by the poor and grossly inaccurate advice which you claim to have been given by an embassy official. It has no foundation in current law. This is an extremely serious situation and I think it behoves you to disclose their name, so that i can take the matter up in my professional capacity at a senior level with UK Visas. If you do not wish to publish the name on the open forum, then you may send it to me by PM.

Scouse.

[the scouser]

I've recently been in touch (by PM) with two of our members that obtained British citizenship for their children born out of wedlock in Thailand.

They were advised that there's no-longer any need to prove domicility regarding the UK and that not being married is no-longer an issue - this was changed sometime around June I believe.... Apparently the British Embassy website had not been updated to reflect the changes.

I can provide a phone number of the embassy staff concerned with dealing with the application - should anyone want it please PM me.

geoffphuket

1 July 2006 was the effective date. Although, if the child was born before this date, the old rules apply; i.e. the father does need to demonstrate a continued connection to the UK.

Scouse.

[Maizefarmer]

Scouser

I think it a little strong to use the forum to voice off your opinion regards someones else contribution (and critisize it in the manner you did), but at the same time decline the oppurtunity to correct that contribution when invited to do so.

I am as entitled to post a contribution to this forum as you are - it is not a platform for you or anyone else in particular, and its very nature is that you are going to encounter things you may not agree with (rightly or wrongly). Thats the nature of the animal.

You invited me to address my comments, I done so - now it would be quite right, having critised my contribution the way you did, that you now reply as I asked you to, and correct those points above which I asked you to do. At which point I may well offer that name up - as I actually nearly did earlier by way of a PM - untill you allowed it to get to you at a personal level, which made me hold back - but go, on - Iam asking you now to correct the quotations I posted.

Thank you

Tim

[the scouser]

I wasn't criticising your contribution, but, rather, the ill-informed advice which you state was given by a member of the embassy staff. I presume you informed the member of staff that you were to post their comments on an internet forum and that their advice was to be construed as official. As I wrote, upon receipt of their name I shall take the matter up with UK Visas.

The points which you made clear were yours, have already been addressed and, as already stated, the advice which the OP requested can be accessed by clicking on the links provided by Vinny.

Scouse.

[Maizefarmer]

I did advise the individual that I was replying to a question on a public forum.

To say my contribution (quite regardless of the source) can be construed as official in any way is incorrect. Read the small print under the ThaiVisa Terms & Conditions, and the status - legal, construed or otherwise - will be clear as it applies to comments.

It is on your part Scouser, a selective use of words in an attempt to put my contribution into a context that enables to use an argument that has nothing to do with the issue I am trying to resolve with you.

What you wrote a thinly disguised critism - it does not take a rocket scientist to understand that. The "tone" was all but obvious to even the dimmest reader.

Scouser you, use this forum to make a lot of contributions, which are (and I will blow the trumpet on this point) good professional replies, and I say that without a hint of sarcism - your contributions add tremendous value to the subject.

At the same time, you are quick to take issue with errors in statement, fact, insinuation, or otherwise - as you did with me, and have done with others when the occassion has arisen (rightly or wrongly).

To want others to qualify and correct their contributions (as you asked of me), but to then decline to do so yourself when asked is one sided.

You wil forgive me for seeing your response now as an effort to move the goal posts further form the original issue (and you say I muddied the waters!), because after I acknowldged my original errors - there really was little to tackle me on in the manner in which you chose to do so.

I'll leave it that and wont ask you anymore, but will say this - you do yourself no favour when asked to reply to what was clear critism of someone else's comments.

To the member who asked the original question, I extend my apologies to you for anything you feel I have done that has distracted from the original question you posted, and for the way your question has drifted - and there is no condition to that apology.

Tim

Edited October 18, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[the scouser]

I think members will draw their own conclusions.

Whilst all are entitled to their own opinions, your post (#3) strayed into statements of supposed fact which were misleading, and it is those that I addressed. That you took umbridge at being contradicted is evident. If you care to re-read what has been written, you will see that nowhere have I directly criticised your comments, only sought to correct them so that the OP would not be misled. Members do not come to this forum for conjecture about what may happen to their applications, they want, as far as possible, guidance which then allows them to draw their own conclusions.

You then claim to have spoken to an embassy official at shortly before 20:47 hours which, whilst not impossible, is highly unlikely. However, accepting for the purposes of this discussion that you did speak to him/her, the advice which you say they gave is erroneous and it is that which I criticised. To have a member of staff so poorly trained is beyond lamentable and does need raising with UK Visas. As I have said, if the person exists, by all means PM their name and job title to me.

Anyway, this one could run and run, so a timely closure is in order. If the OP wants a definitive answer to his question about how to get his daughter a British passport, he should follow the links given in Vinny's post. Whatever he does, evidently he should not speak to an embassy member of staff .

Scouse.