Moken sea gypsies beaten up by men who try to seize their land in Phuket

[nikmar]

I am sure I read a story like this several years ago, and as there is no date reference with this story perhaps it is "History" rather than "News" ?

I stayed in Ko lak just after the tsunami where I heard gunfire at night time due to "mafia" types intimidating locals of land that had been ruined by the water. They had been living there for generations and after the tsunami they tried to return and rebuild their lives and were scared off by people who wanted to make 5 star golf courses.

Im not sure what happened in the end but I didnt hold much hope for the poor souls who just wanted a place to live.

[grumpyoldman]

Lets look at the argument.

On the developer's side, they claim to have bought the land and they have legal Chanote. As one poster said lets be transparent, how did you come to have title and ownership? Who did you pay for this land? How much did you pay for the land?

On the Moken's side, they can prove that they have been there prior to there being land title laws. They can dig up bones of their people dating prior to 1954.

Frankly, for those saying the developers are in the right here because they have "legal title" remember where we are, this ain't Kansas Toto, ain't know office to go to to check title history.

BTW-I guess ol boy Thaksin is back?

RE for Edit: wrong Wizard of Oz character in quotation

Edited January 28, 2016 by grumpyoldman

[SOTIRIOS]

.......nice....

[Lupatria]

I am sure I read a story like this several years ago, and as there is no date reference with this story perhaps it is "History" rather than "News" ?

You forgot? According to a leading professor and consultant to the education ministry its only history when it happened more than 50 years ago.

[kiwikeith]

It's very easy to take sides for the Moken, and also how the news is worded. However, the fact still resides with the Law, has nothing to do with greed. People who oppose greed are usually those who are not doing well financially. Greed is never wrong, unless with ill intentions. People complain about rich people being greedy, could you prove to the world that a poor man if given an opportunity for high income, he would reject the offer?

The Moken has been living in these areas for a long time because they could, but they never owned the land. The developer has full rights to the land and how they purchased it is their business. From this viewpoint, the police, military, government will all uphold the rights of the developer and not the Moken. The exercise of physical assault is another matter, both sides should be responsible for their actions, neither side is "good". The way I see it, the developer continue their business AND the Moken gypsies WARNED and EDUCATED that they have to follow the law and can't take hold of any land they deem fit at their will.

working for a high income and greed are two totally different things. As for HOW the developers obtained (purchased) the land is very relevant on an island rife with criminal land claims etc. If the Moken did indeed " take hold" of the land previous to 1952 then in the same way land was assessed prior to laws governing land purchases. They own the land!

If there is no recorded ownership then the state would own the land, however indigenous people would lay claim to it, I am not sure how that works in LOS.

The state must have sold the land to the developers or whoever did this recieved payment.

In New Zealand the Maori land claims and compensation fights have been ongoing since the signing of the Waitangi Treaty back in 18 something, the indigenous people own the land and as in most countries world wide they have been slaughtered and smashed and conned into handing over their land, a few blankets and a rifle was all it took to secure thousands of acres.

If these people have leagal rights they should be recognised, not slagged by thoughtless drones.

If indeed this is the case then they should in the least be compensated by the amount that the developers paid for the land, then that could be tricky to count as some of the total may not be included in the figures.

[springheeled jack]

its up to the authorities to sort this problem out bully boy tactics obviously used by a developer who wants to develop the beach front it should be stopped now before it gets worse .

[mikiea]

99% of Thai's practice Buddhism , go figure ..................

[mikiea]

I am sure I read a story like this several years ago, and as there is no date reference with this story perhaps it is "History" rather than "News" ?

You forgot? According to a leading professor and consultant to the education ministry its only history when it happened more than 50 years ago.

lupa , i gotta tell you , you are talking outta your keester (a leading professor ? hahaha) there are 3 times , future , present , past , past is what you call history , it could be 10 years or 1 hour ago , it is in the past . you need to look to the future , ehhhh.... maybe read a little more and try to understand the context of what you are reading before you willy nilly throw out a misleading non truth . oh well this is history for me now , see how that works ?

[Dante99]

In who's name is the deed?

Typical. Bring a hundred guys.

the guy who paid for it got his name on the deed

who did he pay for it?

[Gandtee]

Where is our leader who wants happiness for the people. Support these people who have occupied this land for generations and not the greedy land grabbing developers who are destroying the country, with support it seems by the people who are are supposed to protect us. I feel ashamed.

[steelepulse]

Not sure if it is related, but just saw 3 toyota police trucks in convoy and a few cars heading towards Rawai, then turned off to laem ka beach.

[sebastion]

The King visited these Gypsies back in the early 50's before land titles were around and all land was the Kings.

There are some photos circulating of his visit to that village.

I hope that he can help them.

Edit: http://m.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/VIDEO-REPORT-HM-Kings-historic-visit-may/22015

Edited January 28, 2016 by sebastion

[phuketrichard]

this has been going on since I moved here in 1985;

same goes for over in Koh Serey

[Old Croc]

I'm a little confused as to exactly what land is in dispute.

Does the claimed land include the seafood market, restaurants and the large village behind?

Or, is it only the cleared land to the east of that area which contains the abandoned Piscina project?

i.e., The land beyond this wall:

It would affect my thoughts on the matter.

[jobsworth]

my understanding of thai land laws is that anybody could squat an unoccupied piece of land and register it as a tor tor sam.

after 10 years the tor tor sam could be concverted to a chanut.

in the case of beach front land it was usual to acquire a length, say 100 metres of sea shore, and that extended inland for a long way.

that is why you see all those long slim condos at right angles to the sea in pattaya.

what may have happened is that the gypsies did something like this but then urgently needed some money

and so used the chanut as collateral. then of course they did not pay the interest

and so the debt multiplied as it was traded around.

so the present owner probably bought the land from a bank as a foreclosure.

just a guess but this happens a lot in cambodia.

[Old Croc]

Further to my post above, it appears, from the picture below, that the dispute is about the cleared land to the east of the village.

I note there is a soccer goalpost in the picture suggesting the locals have made use of the vacant land for recreation purposes, and it may not be part of their ancestral land.

If anyone can clarify I would be grateful.

[GAZZPA]

More crooked heavy handed tactis by corrupt businessmen where are the police on this.

Unfortunately it looks as if the Moken have no title to the land. If that is the case, and the construction company has a legitimate title, then the Moken have no case, despite their long occupation of the site.

You're right of course, they have no title and assuming (big assumption I know) that the land is legally owned by this company then they have a right to develop it. Problem is that the tactics used are almost inhuman. if these people have been on the land for decades and have ancestors buried on site then it begs the question why have they been permitted to stay so long? has this company recently acquired the land? Either way, if the land is going to be developed by the owners the right thing to do is look at relocating the village to a place where they can live in peace with access to fishing.

This 100 man mob is just a typical response of a big, greedy corporation and it stinks of Thai corruption where money comes first and people, and their lives always second.

Sad story indeed.

[webfact]

PM orders probe of legitimacy of original land title deed issuance



BANGKOK: -- Deputy Prime Minister Gen Prawit Wongsuwan today ordered authorities to investigate the land title deeds of land developers if they were legally acquired after they engaged in a dispute with the Moken sea gypsies in Phuket yesterday.

The action followed order from the prime minister after several Moken sea gypsies were beaten up by about 100 men as they tried to stop the men from blocking the entrance and exit of beach front land in Phuket’s Muang district where they have been dwelling for years.

Gen Prawit said authorities must probe the legitimacy of the original land title deeds if they were lawfully issued.

Yesterday about 100 men of the land development firm came at the public beach front in Tambon Rawai with a backhoe and trucks loaded with huge rocks.

They unloaded the rocks to block the entrance and exit of the land occupied by several families of Chao Ley for several decades. The land has been used to dock their small fishing boats and a burial ground for their ancestors.

The sea gypsies however protested the trespassers prompting the latter to starting beating up the normally peaceful sea nomads. Several of them were reported to be injured.

The violent attack against the Chao Ley stemmed from a lengthy land conflict between the ethnic people and a group of land developers who have wanted to develop the land but could not do so due to the presence of the Chao Ley.

Beach front land in Phuket is hard to find, commands very expensive price and is highly sought after by real estate developers.

After the incident, local authorities intervened and a tripartite meeting was held to defuse the tension.

However no settlement was reached.

But as a temporary relief of the sea men, local authorities told the developer to open a two metre wide path for the sea men to access to the sea.

Another meeting was scheduled on February 2.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/content/148567


-- Thai PBS 2016-01-28

[steelepulse]

PM orders probe of legitimacy of original land title deed issuance

BANGKOK: -- Deputy Prime Minister Gen Prawit Wongsuwan today ordered authorities to investigate the land title deeds of land developers if they were legally acquired after they engaged in a dispute with the Moken sea gypsies in Phuket yesterday.

The action followed order from the prime minister after several Moken sea gypsies were beaten up by about 100 men as they tried to stop the men from blocking the entrance and exit of beach front land in Phuket’s Muang district where they have been dwelling for years.

Gen Prawit said authorities must probe the legitimacy of the original land title deeds if they were lawfully issued.

Yesterday about 100 men of the land development firm came at the public beach front in Tambon Rawai with a backhoe and trucks loaded with huge rocks.

They unloaded the rocks to block the entrance and exit of the land occupied by several families of Chao Ley for several decades. The land has been used to dock their small fishing boats and a burial ground for their ancestors.

The sea gypsies however protested the trespassers prompting the latter to starting beating up the normally peaceful sea nomads. Several of them were reported to be injured.

The violent attack against the Chao Ley stemmed from a lengthy land conflict between the ethnic people and a group of land developers who have wanted to develop the land but could not do so due to the presence of the Chao Ley.

Beach front land in Phuket is hard to find, commands very expensive price and is highly sought after by real estate developers.

After the incident, local authorities intervened and a tripartite meeting was held to defuse the tension.

However no settlement was reached.

But as a temporary relief of the sea men, local authorities told the developer to open a two metre wide path for the sea men to access to the sea.

Another meeting was scheduled on February 2.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/content/148567

-- Thai PBS 2016-01-28

Good news. It would be nice to see how this "legit" chanote came into being and with pm watching, there might actually be an outcome.

[GAZZPA]

More crooked heavy handed tactis by corrupt businessmen where are the police on this.

Unfortunately it looks as if the Moken have no title to the land. If that is the case, and the construction company has a legitimate title, then the Moken have no case, despite their long occupation of the site.

You're right of course, they have no title and assuming (big assumption I know) that the land is legally owned by this company then they have a right to develop it. Problem is that the tactics used are almost inhuman. if these people have been on the land for decades and have ancestors buried on site then it begs the question why have they been permitted to stay so long? has this company recently acquired the land? Either way, if the land is going to be developed by the owners the right thing to do is look at relocating the village to a place where they can live in peace with access to fishing.

This 100 man mob is just a typical response of a big, greedy corporation and it stinks of Thai corruption where money comes first and people, and their lives always second.

Sad story indeed.

[CoreanoOzzie]

What are the odds that these greedy land developers are thai-chinese?

[shirtless]

Follow the ownership deeds , and get to the bottom of this ,

[tubby johnson]

More crooked heavy handed tactis by corrupt businessmen where are the police on this.

The police are the crooks.

[madpat]

So the development company has the land rights and they have the papers. Regular forum readers will remember the Sukhumvit are a long time ago when someone came up with, land papers and proceeded to knock down about 13 bars only years later to be found to be a lying robbing bastard. Is this is what is happening here ? obviously it will not take long to harass and abuse the Gypsies off the land because money will change hands on high and when thr truth is out it will be too late for the Gypsies.

The authorities will show a helping hand initially but dont expect them to be around everyday

[KenKadz]

Who were the 100 men? Army? Police?

[Tom Cahill]

If there is a title deed than there is. End of story. What I only do not understand how a developer would think that this area ( I know it very well ) is a good place to build luxury see view villas. Its close to the "Sea gypsy Slum". Who would like to live there ? Foreign tourists ? Sorry but this area down in Rawai is a stinky dump. Any squatter area in Yangon ( Myanmar ) smells nicer.

Title's a legality. As in it's an administrative piece of paper to allow things to run smoothly. Just like you have company registrars where you attain company information. If it turns out that the informaiton provided's false by accident, false via fraud, or unknowingly contested or superceeded by other laws, then it's not a fact at all.

I take your point about it being an odd choice, but in Thailand things work slowly in increments---which will certainly be relevant to how they've managed to get the land title dealt with above---so what they'll do is get that land, then either build a big wall or something, or, they'll be after more of the land that they're on. They won't expect to build for next year's tourist high season, or the next and won't care about the next either, but as some stage they'll be intent on going full bore and short of a boycott of their business, they'll have the place up and running at some opportune future date.

What makes me wonder is why people don't develop all of the other coast line that's all round most of the country. That really confuses me. There are airports all over the place, so it wouldn't be that hard to get tourists to start going to all of the other better places.

[stoffel45]

Phuket - it really seems like a place to avoid.

[LostDemocracy]

More crooked heavy handed tactis by corrupt businessmen where are the police on this.

In the developer's back pocket.

[laocowboy2]

More crooked heavy handed tactis by corrupt businessmen where are the police on this.

In the pockets of the developers

[fiddlehead]

I was just there 2 days ago and all seemed normal.
The sea-gypsy men were building many crab traps and we watched, amazed at how they do this.
It is an art.
To see this kind of native culture squashed for just another high end villa, (or a few), would be such a shame.

I hope justice prevails and having proved they've been there more than 100 years has protected them in the past.
But, the armys in charge now.
So, does that make a difference?

Anything is possible in Thailand.