Moken sea gypsies beaten up by men who try to seize their land in Phuket

[fiddlehead]

I was just there 2 days ago and all seemed normal.
The sea-gypsy men were building many crab traps and we watched, amazed at how they do this.
It is an art.
To see this kind of native culture squashed for just another high end villa, (or a few), would be such a shame.

I hope justice prevails and having proved they've been there more than 100 years has protected them in the past.
But, the armys in charge now.
So, does that make a difference?

Anything is possible in Thailand.

[biggles45]

It is nice that the PM has ordered an investigation BUT wont the same Phuket officials who issued the land title be the ones who investigate ??

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

Where's Chuwit?

[stevenl]

Where's Chuwit?

Yes, he got things done, these guys are too soft .

[Johpa]

 

It's very easy to take sides for the Moken, and also how the news is worded. However, the fact still resides with the Law, has nothing to do with greed. People who oppose greed are usually those who are not doing well financially. Greed is never wrong, unless with ill intentions. People complain about rich people being greedy, could you prove to the world that a poor man if given an opportunity for high income, he would reject the offer?

Has everything to do with greed. Greed is always wrong which is why it is a focus of just about every major religion. And data analysis (see the book "The Spirit Level", a wonk data focused book not suggested by the title) that shows the correlation between inequality and most social ills. Who writes the laws? How did the law give title to those who did not reside there in the first place?

These land issues happen not just in Phuket. Look up north to the hills where the Karen are relocated from their traditional lands by nothing other than greed, laws written by the greedy and supported by their apologists. As bad as it is in Thailand, where a local Karen land-rights activist was simply disappeared, it is becoming even worse in neighboring Burma.

And the tired right-wing meme that the "poor" are just simply jealous, or in your words "People who oppose greed are usually those who are not doing well financially" is ridiculous although I am sure it gives you a false sense of protection from critique. I oppose greed as much as anyone else and I am not in any financial distress. But I understand that the laws, including the tax and property laws, are written by the greedy to keep their wealth in place at the expense of the poor. Thailand may not really be much of a hub of anything despite the claims of ridiculous government officials, but it is one of the hubs of greed and venality and it attracts too many expats of the same mentality. I am an atheist, but I am tempted to covert to Catholicism so that I can tell all the greedy and their apologists that they are destined for Hades. Greed is always wrong.

[JacChang]

 

It's very easy to take sides for the Moken, and also how the news is worded. However, the fact still resides with the Law, has nothing to do with greed. People who oppose greed are usually those who are not doing well financially. Greed is never wrong, unless with ill intentions. People complain about rich people being greedy, could you prove to the world that a poor man if given an opportunity for high income, he would reject the offer?

Has everything to do with greed. Greed is always wrong which is why it is a focus of just about every major religion. And data analysis (see the book "The Spirit Level", a wonk data focused book not suggested by the title) that shows the correlation between inequality and most social ills. Who writes the laws? How did the law give title to those who did not reside there in the first place?

These land issues happen not just in Phuket. Look up north to the hills where the Karen are relocated from their traditional lands by nothing other than greed, laws written by the greedy and supported by their apologists. As bad as it is in Thailand, where a local Karen land-rights activist was simply disappeared, it is becoming even worse in neighboring Burma.

And the tired right-wing meme that the "poor" are just simply jealous, or in your words "People who oppose greed are usually those who are not doing well financially" is ridiculous although I am sure it gives you a false sense of protection from critique. I oppose greed as much as anyone else and I am not in any financial distress. But I understand that the laws, including the tax and property laws, are written by the greedy to keep their wealth in place at the expense of the poor. Thailand may not really be much of a hub of anything despite the claims of ridiculous government officials, but it is one of the hubs of greed and venality and it attracts too many expats of the same mentality. I am an atheist, but I am tempted to covert to Catholicism so that I can tell all the greedy and their apologists that they are destined for Hades. Greed is always wrong.

I am an atheist myself, there are many things wrong according to religion. Interesting you bring up religion when the topic is quite controversial itself, how has religion proven itself in this modern world of religious wars. I am not going into that topic with you, as you can easily debate with anyone on this planet for years with no resolution. Fact of the matter is, we live in a society governed by law and order, regardless of your belief in greed is wrong or whatever religion you believe in. You can believe in greed is wrong, and be a pretender such as a hypocrite. Are you aware of the number of people who require emergency aid and basic necessities in life? Do you wear shoes? There is one living thing on the other side of this planet that needs your shoe much more than you do. Will you be so kind and please give that shoe to that person? I believe you are a non-greed person, I truly believe in you.

Back to the topic, the country is govern by law and order, written by those with power (greed). Everyone has to abide by them. We don't live in a land of greedless people and we get to conquer whatever land we want anytime. We follow the law, we earn money, we strive to earn more, survival of the fittest, in the end we acquire more and more assets and land.

[JacChang]

It's very easy to take sides for the Moken, and also how the news is worded. However, the fact still resides with the Law, has nothing to do with greed. People who oppose greed are usually those who are not doing well financially. Greed is never wrong, unless with ill intentions. People complain about rich people being greedy, could you prove to the world that a poor man if given an opportunity for high income, he would reject the offer?

The Moken has been living in these areas for a long time because they could, but they never owned the land. The developer has full rights to the land and how they purchased it is their business. From this viewpoint, the police, military, government will all uphold the rights of the developer and not the Moken. The exercise of physical assault is another matter, both sides should be responsible for their actions, neither side is "good". The way I see it, the developer continue their business AND the Moken gypsies WARNED and EDUCATED that they have to follow the law and can't take hold of any land they deem fit at their will.

Your previous post assumes the title deed (chanote) was issued in accordance with the law. For this to be the case, the process has to be transparent. What has transpired here is anything but transparent.

The developer claims to have the title deed. Your post assumes the title deed was issued illegally against the law, and it was acquired without transparency. Do you have any other evidence to support your claims with me, and the police, and the court?

[JacChang]

It's very easy to take sides for the Moken, and also how the news is worded. However, the fact still resides with the Law, has nothing to do with greed. People who oppose greed are usually those who are not doing well financially. Greed is never wrong, unless with ill intentions. People complain about rich people being greedy, could you prove to the world that a poor man if given an opportunity for high income, he would reject the offer?

The Moken has been living in these areas for a long time because they could, but they never owned the land. The developer has full rights to the land and how they purchased it is their business. From this viewpoint, the police, military, government will all uphold the rights of the developer and not the Moken. The exercise of physical assault is another matter, both sides should be responsible for their actions, neither side is "good". The way I see it, the developer continue their business AND the Moken gypsies WARNED and EDUCATED that they have to follow the law and can't take hold of any land they deem fit at their will.

working for a high income and greed are two totally different things. As for HOW the developers obtained (purchased) the land is very relevant on an island rife with criminal land claims etc. If the Moken did indeed " take hold" of the land previous to 1952 then in the same way land was assessed prior to laws governing land purchases. They own the land!

Exactly, thank god, you and me are looking at this issue objectively. Whether or not today these guys are rich or poor, greedy or not, the land dispute still resides with the side that has legal title to the land. Other countries have the exact problems, we all have other people living in the country, and that is up to the government to decide how the land is to be used. They could reserve it for these "special people" and not sell the state land to developers. However, once they have sold the land, the developer has full rights and power to claim the land. The only resolution I see is that the government should relocate these people and negotiate how these people should live. In their favor, the government sold the land where these people have been living for a long time, so the government should provide them another land to stay at and pay some compensation.

[JacChang]

It's very easy to take sides for the Moken, and also how the news is worded. However, the fact still resides with the Law, has nothing to do with greed. People who oppose greed are usually those who are not doing well financially. Greed is never wrong, unless with ill intentions. People complain about rich people being greedy, could you prove to the world that a poor man if given an opportunity for high income, he would reject the offer?

The Moken has been living in these areas for a long time because they could, but they never owned the land. The developer has full rights to the land and how they purchased it is their business. From this viewpoint, the police, military, government will all uphold the rights of the developer and not the Moken. The exercise of physical assault is another matter, both sides should be responsible for their actions, neither side is "good". The way I see it, the developer continue their business AND the Moken gypsies WARNED and EDUCATED that they have to follow the law and can't take hold of any land they deem fit at their will.

working for a high income and greed are two totally different things. As for HOW the developers obtained (purchased) the land is very relevant on an island rife with criminal land claims etc. If the Moken did indeed " take hold" of the land previous to 1952 then in the same way land was assessed prior to laws governing land purchases. They own the land!

If there is no recorded ownership then the state would own the land, however indigenous people would lay claim to it, I am not sure how that works in LOS.

The state must have sold the land to the developers or whoever did this recieved payment.

In New Zealand the Maori land claims and compensation fights have been ongoing since the signing of the Waitangi Treaty back in 18 something, the indigenous people own the land and as in most countries world wide they have been slaughtered and smashed and conned into handing over their land, a few blankets and a rifle was all it took to secure thousands of acres.

If these people have leagal rights they should be recognised, not slagged by thoughtless drones.

If indeed this is the case then they should in the least be compensated by the amount that the developers paid for the land, then that could be tricky to count as some of the total may not be included in the figures.

True. Personally I hope the government would reserve some land for these people and respect each other, each living within their own beliefs. But modern world governments claim full power and will take power by force.

[stevenl]

It's very easy to take sides for the Moken, and also how the news is worded. However, the fact still resides with the Law, has nothing to do with greed. People who oppose greed are usually those who are not doing well financially. Greed is never wrong, unless with ill intentions. People complain about rich people being greedy, could you prove to the world that a poor man if given an opportunity for high income, he would reject the offer?

The Moken has been living in these areas for a long time because they could, but they never owned the land. The developer has full rights to the land and how they purchased it is their business. From this viewpoint, the police, military, government will all uphold the rights of the developer and not the Moken. The exercise of physical assault is another matter, both sides should be responsible for their actions, neither side is "good". The way I see it, the developer continue their business AND the Moken gypsies WARNED and EDUCATED that they have to follow the law and can't take hold of any land they deem fit at their will.

working for a high income and greed are two totally different things. As for HOW the developers obtained (purchased) the land is very relevant on an island rife with criminal land claims etc. If the Moken did indeed " take hold" of the land previous to 1952 then in the same way land was assessed prior to laws governing land purchases. They own the land!

Exactly, thank god, you and me are looking at this issue objectively. Whether or not today these guys are rich or poor, greedy or not, the land dispute still resides with the side that has legal title to the land. Other countries have the exact problems, we all have other people living in the country, and that is up to the government to decide how the land is to be used. They could reserve it for these "special people" and not sell the state land to developers. However, once they have sold the land, the developer has full rights and power to claim the land. The only resolution I see is that the government should relocate these people and negotiate how these people should live. In their favor, the government sold the land where these people have been living for a long time, so the government should provide them another land to stay at and pay some compensation.

Hmm, you know 'these people' have a land title for that land, predating the one from the developer?

[pistachios]

I may be wrong but i remember having read some story on this forum few years ago that the Moken had a legal land title but their village chief or something sold it 10 or 20 years ago and quickly spent all the money.

[JacChang]

In that case, the story just got more interesting.

[Jim walker]

The greed in Thailand is starting to disgust me I used to think that the Thai people were lovely so kind and gentle people but now its all about greed and money and as for attacking people it can never be one to one in Thailand now one to a hundred just to try and even things up a bit these sea gypsies must be a tough lot that they need 99 more people to back them up in a fight. Lucky these gypsies dont play Bridge or it might have been another 80 police and soldiers to fight off.

[pistachios]

In that case, the story just got more interesting.

I couldn't find anything remotely close to that in the forum's history. I was pretty sure I remembered it but it's probably another land dispute story.