This is why you have to avoid travelling by bus in Thailand!

[CarolJadzia]

If you do not drive yourself and could choose between a car, a minivan or a bus , I'll take the bus any day .

It just gives you a better chance to survive an accident , that's all.

Interesting that you think buses are safer. An untrained driver, no safety belt and often poor coach building and maintenance.

Also for the amount of coaches compared to other vehicle types suggests Coach and minibus accidents are disproportionately high in Thailand.

With the amount of reported accidents that involve buses it is wrong to assume they are safer than other vehicle types.

Total registered vehicles for 2012 32 476 977

Cars and 4-wheeled light vehicles 11 829 221

Motorised 2- and 3-wheelers 19 169 418

Heavy trucks 901 014

Buses 137 609

Other 439 715

( Source - http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/road_safety_status/2015/Country_profiles_combined.pdf?ua=1 )

Currently if we go by the daily road accident reports the safest vehicle type is the big bike! There is usually at least one coach accident every day and always a load of small bike accidents every day. Then next is the car's, lorries and pick ups. Only ever see a big bike accident every few days.

No I am not suggesting for everyone to go and buy a big bike, I know there are a lot fewer of them on the road as well. It's just an observation from the reports.

But having witnessed the bus driving I would prefer to be self reliant on my transport preferences when possible.

I do not agree with you.

You can still survive a bus accident. In a front collision between a bus and a car, who do you think have a better chance to survive, the passengers in the car or the passengers in the bus ?

Fatal bus accidents are not that common compared with how many people die on their bikes and in cars/vans ,

So again . if I could choose between a mini van to Bangkok or a big bus , I'll choose the bus any day ,

Your question is far too simplistic to answer. What time of car? Who built the coach? How did the accident happen?

A modern car, especially one from the likes of Volvo or such like, has a proper fitted roll cage and every model has been tested to destruction.

Where as there are regular reports about many Thai coach builders using substandard materials and coaches not being built to international standards.

What about the risks as a pedestrian getting to and from the bus stop?

Also there are thousands more cars and motorcycles on Thai roads than there are buses. But buses, coaches and minibuses feature disproportionally high in the daily reports of accidents around Thailand.

Then we come back to the training aspect. I have spent a big part of my life being trained and gaining experience in driving and riding a huge range of vehicles. It has also been my job for many years to teach people to ride motorcycles. Now maybe it's because I am a bit autistic, but I cannot help but watch how other road users drive and ride, comes with the job! I cannot expect everyone to be perfect in their driving. In fact if you have read any of my other posts on TV you will see I have been arguing that for a while. Normal people doing normal things are the ones who have most of the accidents.

I will trust a pilot to fly me around the world because I know they have been through a huge training programme and have had to pass a host of exams and simulated situations before being allowed to take control. I also know there will be a co-pilot and the Pilot will have had many hours of experience.

On the other hand all a Thai Bus driver requires is a normal everyday driving licence that they could have possibly bought! Even if they have passed a test it did not include anything about driving a coach. Excuse me if I show concern about entrusting my life to them.

Airplanes have to be safe because every large aircraft accident hits international headlines. But compared to road fatalities the aviation industry is far safer. Only because road fatalities happen all the time to individuals and small groups does the impact of this go unnoticed. Yes of course the odds are that we will all go out and successfully be transported around our daily lives without incident, that is another reason why we tend to think we have nothing to worry about.

This all reads like I am a safety nut. That's not the case. I love riding in Thailand, some say I am mad as it is so dangerous (others just say I am mad!) but I enjoy the freedom of riding my bike. My time spent on Thai public transport has never been so relaxed. Drivers overtaking on blind corners, drivers having long conversations on mobile phones, poorly maintained vehicles with bald tyres, large cracks in the windscreens and excessive speed. Aggressive driving, overtaking and forcing others to take evasive action.

Now I am not suggesting that all Thai drivers do drive like that. I am not even suggesting that they are all bad drivers. Just currently they are not trained in the skills required to undertake the job that they do.

I do not look down on someone who comes to me and ask's me to teach them to ride a motorcycle. I will do my best to teach them what they need to know in order to ride a bike as safely as possible. When somebody is being expected to take responsibility for the lives of others should we not expect the same standards from them before we entrust our lives to them?

Yes of course I am in danger when I ride my bike. The point is that I am in control. I make the choices about what I do and how I react. I also make the choice about who I trust to do that on my behalf. Thai drivers are far more experienced than me at driving on Thai roads and I respect that too. But as the OP post and the thousands of others like it clearly demonstrate and will continue to on a daily basis - Without better training unnecessary and often life changing bus and coach accidents will continue happening at a disproportionally high rate on Thai roads.

[midas]

Interesting that you think buses are safer. An untrained driver, no safety belt and often poor coach building and maintenance.

Also for the amount of coaches compared to other vehicle types suggests Coach and minibus accidents are disproportionately high in Thailand.

With the amount of reported accidents that involve buses it is wrong to assume they are safer than other vehicle types.

Total registered vehicles for 2012 32 476 977

Cars and 4-wheeled light vehicles 11 829 221

Motorised 2- and 3-wheelers 19 169 418

Heavy trucks 901 014

Buses 137 609

Other 439 715

( Source - http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/road_safety_status/2015/Country_profiles_combined.pdf?ua=1 )

Currently if we go by the daily road accident reports the safest vehicle type is the big bike! There is usually at least one coach accident every day and always a load of small bike accidents every day. Then next is the car's, lorries and pick ups. Only ever see a big bike accident every few days.

No I am not suggesting for everyone to go and buy a big bike, I know there are a lot fewer of them on the road as well. It's just an observation from the reports.

But having witnessed the bus driving I would prefer to be self reliant on my transport preferences when possible.

I do not agree with you.

You can still survive a bus accident. In a front collision between a bus and a car, who do you think have a better chance to survive, the passengers in the car or the passengers in the bus ?

Fatal bus accidents are not that common compared with how many people die on their bikes and in cars/vans ,

So again . if I could choose between a mini van to Bangkok or a big bus , I'll choose the bus any day ,

Your question is far too simplistic to answer. What time of car? Who built the coach? How did the accident happen?

A modern car, especially one from the likes of Volvo or such like, has a proper fitted roll cage and every model has been tested to destruction.

Where as there are regular reports about many Thai coach builders using substandard materials and coaches not being built to international standards.

What about the risks as a pedestrian getting to and from the bus stop?

Also there are thousands more cars and motorcycles on Thai roads than there are buses. But buses, coaches and minibuses feature disproportionally high in the daily reports of accidents around Thailand.

Then we come back to the training aspect. I have spent a big part of my life being trained and gaining experience in driving and riding a huge range of vehicles. It has also been my job for many years to teach people to ride motorcycles. Now maybe it's because I am a bit autistic, but I cannot help but watch how other road users drive and ride, comes with the job! I cannot expect everyone to be perfect in their driving. In fact if you have read any of my other posts on TV you will see I have been arguing that for a while. Normal people doing normal things are the ones who have most of the accidents.

I will trust a pilot to fly me around the world because I know they have been through a huge training programme and have had to pass a host of exams and simulated situations before being allowed to take control. I also know there will be a co-pilot and the Pilot will have had many hours of experience.

On the other hand all a Thai Bus driver requires is a normal everyday driving licence that they could have possibly bought! Even if they have passed a test it did not include anything about driving a coach. Excuse me if I show concern about entrusting my life to them.

Airplanes have to be safe because every large aircraft accident hits international headlines. But compared to road fatalities the aviation industry is far safer. Only because road fatalities happen all the time to individuals and small groups does the impact of this go unnoticed. Yes of course the odds are that we will all go out and successfully be transported around our daily lives without incident, that is another reason why we tend to think we have nothing to worry about.

This all reads like I am a safety nut. That's not the case. I love riding in Thailand, some say I am mad as it is so dangerous (others just say I am mad!) but I enjoy the freedom of riding my bike. My time spent on Thai public transport has never been so relaxed. Drivers overtaking on blind corners, drivers having long conversations on mobile phones, poorly maintained vehicles with bald tyres, large cracks in the windscreens and excessive speed. Aggressive driving, overtaking and forcing others to take evasive action.

Now I am not suggesting that all Thai drivers do drive like that. I am not even suggesting that they are all bad drivers. Just currently they are not trained in the skills required to undertake the job that they do.

I do not look down on someone who comes to me and ask's me to teach them to ride a motorcycle. I will do my best to teach them what they need to know in order to ride a bike as safely as possible. When somebody is being expected to take responsibility for the lives of others should we not expect the same standards from them before we entrust our lives to them?

Yes of course I am in danger when I ride my bike. The point is that I am in control. I make the choices about what I do and how I react. I also make the choice about who I trust to do that on my behalf. Thai drivers are far more experienced than me at driving on Thai roads and I respect that too. But as the OP post and the thousands of others like it clearly demonstrate and will continue to on a daily basis - Without better training unnecessary and often life changing bus and coach accidents will continue happening at a disproportionally high rate on Thai roads.

It sounds like you read the road conditions and anticipate potential mishaps. I do the same. In fact as I'm using the road 80 to 90% of the time I'm constantly asking myself what stupid move is the next person likely to make? And I'm very seldom disappointed

but I really don't believe many Thai road users think this way. I have no idea what many of them are thinking about but they are not concentrating on road conditions ahead of them.

[CarolJadzia]

It sounds like you read the road conditions and anticipate potential mishaps. I do the same. In fact as I'm using the road 80 to 90% of the time I'm constantly asking myself what stupid move is the next person likely to make? And I'm very seldom disappointed

but I really don't believe many Thai road users think this way. I have no idea what many of them are thinking about but they are not concentrating on road conditions ahead of them.

Yes you are right, we teach defensive riding. Only more recently with new understanding and ways to improve the way we do things, we are now talking about a new approach that we call No Surprise / No Accident. Although the guys I am working with on the idea are applying the principles on UK roads, the approach works just as well when applied to Thailand.

To just say all Thai drivers are the same is a bit too simplistic. Some Thai drivers are really good, some have been trained abroad, some have many years of experience and a wish to learn.

We can also generalise about things like age. Many young drivers and riders along with lacking experience, also enjoy going fast and being reckless. We know this, although there are also now scientific studies to prove it as well. That applies anywhere in the world and the reason for the stepped licensing scheme adopted by the UK Government for motorcyclists for example.

When you talk about what stupid move is someone going to do next we call it prediction. Or more often we refer to an accident being caused by prediction failure. The OP Coach driver probably failed to predict the turning circle of the coach he was driving. We can address this by making sure all people who wish to drive a coach commercially have had extra training on how to drive a coach, including how to allow for the extra length when traversing a corner!

Unfortunately there are no requirements currently for Thai coach drivers to undertake such training. We are not even at the stage of getting all people to a standard generally expected around the world for full licence holders. The result is that many Thai's drive and ride by the rules they grew up with, comparable to the ones we all use as pedestrians. Add then self learned tactics applied for self preservation - E.G. Not stopping at red traffic lights for fear of being shunted from behind.

If then we also add into the mix the beliefs in reincarnation and spirit protection. Along with a good mix of 'Mai pen rai' and we can start to build a picture of why the situation is so bad.

Many Thai Drivers and Riders are trying their best, they have simply not been taught anything better.

[Tolley]

As dangerous as the roads might be in Thailand I found them much safer than when I was driving in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia is really off the charts for dangerous madcap driving behaviour.

I saw over a number of years numerous bodies sprawled on the sides of the highway.

Completer mayhem.

[CarolJadzia]

As dangerous as the roads might be in Thailand I found them much safer than when I was driving in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia is really off the charts for dangerous madcap driving behaviour.

I saw over a number of years numerous bodies sprawled on the sides of the highway.

Completer mayhem.

Yes I have been chatting with some road safety guys who are working with the Saudi government on addressing the situation.

They have been reporting on how bad it is and that they are also struggling to address it.

However statistically it is not as bad as Thailand.

WHO estimated road traffic accident fatality rate per 100 000 population - Saudi Arabia - 27.4 / Thailand - 36.2

http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/road_safety_status/2015/Country_profiles_combined.pdf?ua=1

[midas]

It sounds like you read the road conditions and anticipate potential mishaps. I do the same. In fact as I'm using the road 80 to 90% of the time I'm constantly asking myself what stupid move is the next person likely to make? And I'm very seldom disappointed

but I really don't believe many Thai road users think this way. I have no idea what many of them are thinking about but they are not concentrating on road conditions ahead of them.

Yes you are right, we teach defensive riding. Only more recently with new understanding and ways to improve the way we do things, we are now talking about a new approach that we call No Surprise / No Accident. Although the guys I am working with on the idea are applying the principles on UK roads, the approach works just as well when applied to Thailand.

To just say all Thai drivers are the same is a bit too simplistic. Some Thai drivers are really good, some have been trained abroad, some have many years of experience and a wish to learn.

We can also generalise about things like age. Many young drivers and riders along with lacking experience, also enjoy going fast and being reckless. We know this, although there are also now scientific studies to prove it as well. That applies anywhere in the world and the reason for the stepped licensing scheme adopted by the UK Government for motorcyclists for example.

When you talk about what stupid move is someone going to do next we call it prediction. Or more often we refer to an accident being caused by prediction failure. The OP Coach driver probably failed to predict the turning circle of the coach he was driving. We can address this by making sure all people who wish to drive a coach commercially have had extra training on how to drive a coach, including how to allow for the extra length when traversing a corner!

Unfortunately there are no requirements currently for Thai coach drivers to undertake such training. We are not even at the stage of getting all people to a standard generally expected around the world for full licence holders. The result is that many Thai's drive and ride by the rules they grew up with, comparable to the ones we all use as pedestrians. Add then self learned tactics applied for self preservation - E.G. Not stopping at red traffic lights for fear of being shunted from behind.

If then we also add into the mix the beliefs in reincarnation and spirit protection. Along with a good mix of 'Mai pen rai' and we can start to build a picture of why the situation is so bad.

Many Thai Drivers and Riders are trying their best, they have simply not been taught anything better.

The most baffling behaviour for me in Thailand is the way so many motorcyclists actually speed up when they see the traffic up ahead of them all slowing down simultaneously which I'm sure to you and me would imply there could be some kind of potential hazard ahead so better to proceed with caution? But no these guys actually go quicker.

[tropo]

The best advice I can give new riders/drivers in Pattaya: A green light means proceed with caution and always look both ways. Assume people will jump red lights.

[CarolJadzia]

The best advice I can give new riders/drivers in Pattaya: A green light means proceed with caution and always look both ways. Assume people will jump red lights.

Always good advice anywhere.

GREEN means you may go on if the way is clear. Take special care if you intend to turn left or right and give way to pedestrians who are crossing

UK Highway Code

It is never a good idea to assume a junction is safe all because a green light say's it's ok for you to proceed.

The most baffling behaviour for me in Thailand is the way so many motorcyclists actually speed up when they see the traffic up ahead of them all slowing down simultaneously which I'm sure to you and me would imply there could be some kind of potential hazard ahead so better to proceed with caution? But no these guys actually go quicker.

Yes that is also baffling for me as I have never witnessed it and it does not compute, neither have my Thai biker friends heard of it so you have us all confused?

Not slowing down because they do not understand the danger is common, maybe the fact that a rider may appear to speed up if other road users around them are braking, everything being relative?

There are times when I will speed up when coming up on traffic ahead. If I know the road and I am looking to try and take advantage of a section where I can normally overtake for instance. Maybe if you can see a long straight you may try and get passed the cars before the bend at the far end?

Many Thai's in large vehicles do not slow down. Even in my limited experience of Thai Coach travel I have witnessed while riding across Southern Thailand, the bus just would not slow down for anything. Which meant we were overtaking into blind bends. But of course it's not just coaches and buses!

[Turkleton]

If we stopped using buses, minivans, motorcycles, bicycles we could never leave the house...

Drive yourself and you will probably eliminate 90% of the common causes of accidents.

It's usually not the vehicles, but mostly the unskilled, overtired, drunken, reckless, aggressive, selfish and $whatever drivers.

We all know that and I wish everybody, who voluntarily uses on of the above mentioned vehicles, all the best luck...you will need it, sooner or later.

[whitemouse]

If we stopped using buses, minivans, motorcycles, bicycles we could never leave the house...

Drive yourself and you will probably eliminate 90% of the common causes of accidents.

It's usually not the vehicles, but mostly the unskilled, overtired, drunken, reckless, aggressive, selfish and $whatever drivers.

We all know that and I wish everybody, who voluntarily uses on of the above mentioned vehicles, all the best luck...you will need it, sooner or later.

I agree that it is not the vehicles but the drivers who cause accidents.

Car crash often involves 2 or more vehicles, yes? So some of the victims are prolly excellent drivers, don't you agree? The good drivers are victims all the time, because a drunk driver who caused the accident does not care how good you are.

I think I'm safer in a bus, alltho I a bizarre, unsupported by stats opinion here is that buses are more dangerous than motorcycles and cars for travelling.

Stats posted right here in this thread tell us buses are involved in less accidents. Common sense tells us that a passengers in a bus hit by a sedan will very likely survive, and people in sedan are likely crushed in hiway speeds collision, its just physics. What about motorcycle crashing into a bus?

I wonder when was the last time anyone here travelling in a bus and bus crashed. I have never experienced that. To keep harping that we should avoid bus is dumb.

But facts and numbers are no match for TVF.

[whitemouse]

Drive yourself and you will probably eliminate 90% of the common causes of accidents.

It's usually not the vehicles, but mostly the unskilled, overtired, drunken, reckless, aggressive, selfish and $whatever drivers.

We all know that and I wish everybody, who voluntarily uses on of the above mentioned vehicles, all the best luck...you will need it, sooner or later.

At the end of the post you wish us luck. Why? We are all excellent drivers, why do we need luck?

[CarolJadzia]

Normal everyday people doing normal everyday things are the ones who have all the accidents.

It is a normal response to want to find blame:- "It was the drunk driver" "It was the speeding Driver" "It was the Women Driver" "it was the motorcyclists fault"

If we can blame someone else we all feel better as it's obviously not our fault.

Then with a little correspondence bias we can all continue on oblivious as it's always someone else's error.

Problem is that it is seldom someone else's error.

Accidents are caused by normal people doing normal things but in abnormal situations. Not abnormal people or abnormal things.

We will never stop all accidents, but we can work at avoiding the majority.

You keep blaming others and enjoying riding on the bus, probably is the safest place for you.