For similar heat-exchange efficiency the water inside will need to be as much cooler than your ambient as it was warmer than your ambient when you used it as a heater. Say a delta-T of 30C, so your water would need to be about 5C here.

and without strong forced room air circulation the conventional heaters in which cold water circulates would not even be able to cool a single cup of hot coffee to a drinkable temperature.

this thread should be renamed "101 wet phantasies to bend the laws of physics"

This thread is sooooooo painful. Please stop.

Splitlid I'm sure is joking and you Naam have enjoyed it with the laughing icon. Good on ya. It actually is a credit to the whole mob that by page 33 now after George started it rolling, that speaks volumes how it is really not boring as splitlid jokes.

We've all learnt to remain "gentlemen" with Naam leading the way, and sooo much about Georges question "living off grid with small solar systems". This would have to be a TVN record? well done guys.

it's not the thread which is painful Joe but individual baseless assumptions when it pertains to "cooling".

by the way, my wife claims i was a gentleman... many rainy seasons ago

This thread is sooooooo painful. Please stop.

Splitlid I'm sure is joking and you Naam have enjoyed it with the laughing icon. Good on ya. It actually is a credit to the whole mob that by page 33 now after George started it rolling, that speaks volumes how it is really not boring as splitlid jokes.

We've all learnt to remain "gentlemen" with Naam leading the way, and sooo much about Georges question "living off grid with small solar systems". This would have to be a TVN record? well done guys.

it's not the thread which is painful Joe but individual baseless assumptions when it pertains to "cooling".

by the way, my wife claims i was a gentleman... many rainy seasons ago

How about car radiators?

Shirley an option to look into George.

Re post 813. (too many quotes apparently to allow another) car radiators;-

Many years ago to heat a 10 foot x 3 foot pool, I used a car radiator over a basic brick incinerator and pumped water with an old house pressure pump. It was amazing how only say 20 brick-size hardwood bits of fire wood did the trick.

Naturally the radiator didnt suffer a bit with the very hot fire. Great "hack" as the back yard blokes say it.

This thread is sooooooo painful. Please stop.

Splitlid I'm sure is joking and you Naam have enjoyed it with the laughing icon. Good on ya. It actually is a credit to the whole mob that by page 33 now after George started it rolling, that speaks volumes how it is really not boring as splitlid jokes.

We've all learnt to remain "gentlemen" with Naam leading the way, and sooo much about Georges question "living off grid with small solar systems". This would have to be a TVN record? well done guys.

it's not the thread which is painful Joe but individual baseless assumptions when it pertains to "cooling".

by the way, my wife claims i was a gentleman... many rainy seasons ago

I'm retired now so if someone says "you're a retired gentleman", well that's now a whole new meaning eh? I'll mischievously think of your wife's claim. Sorry lets get back on track.

How about car radiators?

Shirley an option to look into George.

car radiator, fan and cold water works! but where to get the cold water from?

APETLEY ---Referring to your post #802--- Keep thinking about the simplest design as you do.

Other than generous pipe sizes, there is one factor I forgot; the steeper the angle of the plate obviously augers better for the turnover of the tank contents. This is really the "thermal pressure pump" if you'll allow. This would give George some grief how to set it, he being right on the equator? Can you enlighten us please George? What is the best angle all year round for steeper (as suggested) solar hot water panels without a pump and indeed solar P/V panels when fixed all year round?

Hi. Years ago I came across an online book where a guy had constructed a simple box with a network of piping and as you say quite upright to get a better flow. As an aid to collecting sunlight he actually fitted an angled mirrored strip behind each pipe. I wish I'd kept the link but he said it worked very well.

@jingjoe,

Im in NOrth Sumatera and not in or near jakarta.

The performance of a photovoltaic (PV) module is influenced by its tilt angle with the horizontal, due to the tilt angle change the amount of climate condition (solar irradiance and temperature) reaching the surface of the PV module. The optimum tilt angle is needed to get the maximum solar irradiance and the minimum temperature along day reaching the surface of the PV module. This paper presents a calculation of the tilt angles and the solar irradiance on PV module in Medan, Indonesia. A mathematical modeling is used to calculate the tilt angles and the solar irradiance, which depend on latitude and day number. The optimum tilt angle of PV module was determined by searching a yearly maximum total and average solar irradiance. The tilt angles of PV module in Medan, are -19.870 to 26.130. The positive, zero and negative tilt angles indicate that the PV module is inclined to face south, on horizontal surface and north, respectively. The yearly minimum, maximum and average solar irradiance are 911.6 W/m2 and 1090 W/m2 and 1019 W/m2 on 4.13 0 of the PV module tilt angle. For Medan, Indonesia (has latitude 3.58 0 N) is recommended that the optimum tilt angle of the PV module from the horizontal be put equal to 4.130 (an angle of the latitude of the location +0.550).

How about car radiators?

Shirley an option to look into George.

car radiator, fan and cold water works! but where to get the cold water from?

How about that blakchose idea in the sun but from copper pipes in the freezer with inlet and outlet. Will it cool the water enough when you run the freezer till max 0c so it will not freeze. Or is this a silly idea???

How about car radiators?

Shirley an option to look into George.

car radiator, fan and cold water works! but where to get the cold water from?

How about that blakchose idea in the sun but from copper pipes in the freezer with inlet and outlet. Will it cool the water enough when you run the freezer till max 0c so it will not freeze. Or is this a silly idea???

What you're actually proposing is: Use an actual refrigerant with high thermal conductivity to cool air which has incredibly bad thermal conductivity, to then cool water in a pipe (which is better than air, but not a shade on refrigerant), then transport it to an area where it's then cooling air again via a lossy radiator.

If you're trying to make it as inefficient as you possibly can, you've nailed it.

Best way to cool the air space in a room: a split system aircon using R32 refrigerant. End of story.

How about car radiators?

Shirley an option to look into George.

car radiator, fan and cold water works! but where to get the cold water from?

How about that blakchose idea in the sun but from copper pipes in the freezer with inlet and outlet. Will it cool the water enough when you run the freezer till max 0c so it will not freeze. Or is this a silly idea???

A freezer using 200W is the equivalent of a 2,000 BTU aircon, so it will be able to provide that much cooling.

BUT

If you fill it with water you can use it to store cold during the day and release it at night. Actually allowing the water to freeze will store more energy than just keeping the water cold.

Using brine as the circulating fluid will prevent it from freezing.

How about car radiators?

Shirley an option to look into George.

car radiator, fan and cold water works! but where to get the cold water from?

How about that blakchose idea in the sun but from copper pipes in the freezer with inlet and outlet. Will it cool the water enough when you run the freezer till max 0c so it will not freeze. Or is this a silly idea???

A freezer using 200W is the equivalent of a 2,000 BTU aircon, so it will be able to provide that much cooling.

BUT

If you fill it with water you can use it to store cold during the day and release it at night. Actually allowing the water to freeze will store more energy than just keeping the water cold.

Using brine as the circulating fluid will prevent it from freezing.

it's too Lossy Crossy

That original 2000 BTU is lucky to be a couple of hundred BTU by the time it's actually cooling his room.

car radiator, fan and cold water works! but where to get the cold water from?

How about that blakchose idea in the sun but from copper pipes in the freezer with inlet and outlet. Will it cool the water enough when you run the freezer till max 0c so it will not freeze. Or is this a silly idea???

A freezer using 200W is the equivalent of a 2,000 BTU aircon, so it will be able to provide that much cooling.

BUT

If you fill it with water you can use it to store cold during the day and release it at night. Actually allowing the water to freeze will store more energy than just keeping the water cold.

Using brine as the circulating fluid will prevent it from freezing.

it's too Lossy Crossy

That original 2000 BTU is lucky to be a couple of hundred BTU by the time it's actually cooling his room.

Of course it is, but we're in the market for crazy ideas here

How about car radiators?

Shirley an option to look into George.

car radiator, fan and cold water works! but where to get the cold water from?

How about that blakchose idea in the sun but from copper pipes in the freezer with inlet and outlet. Will it cool the water enough when you run the freezer till max 0c so it will not freeze. Or is this a silly idea???

from where the eff do you get the power for the freezer to cool down a sufficient quantity of water to the required temperature?

most of your questions are not silly but based on your stubbornness and refusal to acquire some simple basic knowlege and accept that energy output can never be equal or exceed energy input.

i have given you already a clear explanation but repeat it. take freezer energy requirement, convert watts into btu/h and then compare ratio power consumption : btu/h cooling capacity of a "real" aircon.

do NOT use the nowadays cooling capacity in "silly" kWh as layman thinking mistakes are preprogrammed!

Of course it is, but we're in the market for crazy ideas here

OK, here's mine then:

Cool your house using the Troposphere!

It's only ~2KM away from where we are, and down to ~17c at that point, and surely thermal buoyancy will help lower the total energy cost of the complete round-trip, no?

Not enough cooling? just send your heat exchanger closer to the Tropopause (~20KM) where the air is now down to around -50c!

How about car radiators?

Shirley an option to look into George.

car radiator, fan and cold water works! but where to get the cold water from?

How about that blakchose idea in the sun but from copper pipes in the freezer with inlet and outlet. Will it cool the water enough when you run the freezer till max 0c so it will not freeze. Or is this a silly idea???

from where the eff do you get the power for the freezer to cool down a sufficient quantity of water to the required temperature?

most of your questions are not silly but based on your stubbornness and refusal to acquire some simple basic knowlege and accept that energy output can never be equal or exceed energy input.

i have given you already a clear explanation but repeat it. take freezer energy requirement, convert watts into btu/h and then compare ratio power consumption : btu/h cooling capacity of a "real" aircon.

do NOT use the nowadays cooling capacity in "silly" kWh as layman thinking mistakes are preprogrammed!

@George: for more insight into what Worf is saying here, Google for: Conservation of Energy

Of course it is, but we're in the market for crazy ideas here

OK, here's mine then:

Cool your house using the Troposphere!

It's only ~2KM away from where we are, and down to ~17c at that point, and surely thermal buoyancy will help lower the total energy cost of the complete round-trip, no?

Not enough cooling? just send your heat exchanger closer to the Tropopause (~20KM) where the air is now down to around -50c!

Here's the basic concept behind this idea:

1. Balloon - to provide the system with enough lift to get it all up to the Troposphere and keep it all up there. Of course, an anchor will be needed, but we can use our piping for that (more on that later)

2. Small PV panel - atop of the balloon to provide power for a small fan to promote airflow through the heat exchanger located in the Troposphere. The low temps and higher radiation levels should substantially improve upon the STC reference harvest.

3. Heat exchanger with fan - to improve overall system efficiency up in the Troposphere.

4. Insulated supply and return pipes. We'll use water as the medium because it's cheap, easily replenished, doesn't require high pressure, and crucially, can take full advantage of the thermosiphon principle. We'll use anti-freeze additives as required, of course.

5. Small PV panel at ground level, powering:

6. A heat exchanger and fan in the target room to be cooled.

End result: a 100% free energy cooling system with variable cooling capacity (altitude).

Of course it is, but we're in the market for crazy ideas here

OK, here's mine then:

Cool your house using the Troposphere!

It's only ~2KM away from where we are, and down to ~17c at that point, and surely thermal buoyancy will help lower the total energy cost of the complete round-trip, no?

Not enough cooling? just send your heat exchanger closer to the Tropopause (~20KM) where the air is now down to around -50c!

Here's the basic concept behind this idea:

1. Balloon - to provide the system with enough lift to get it all up to the Troposphere and keep it all up there. Of course, an anchor will be needed, but we can use our piping for that (more on that later)

2. Small PV panel - atop of the balloon to provide power for a small fan to promote airflow through the heat exchanger located in the Troposphere. The low temps and higher radiation levels should substantially improve upon the STC reference harvest.

3. Heat exchanger with fan - to improve overall system efficiency up in the Troposphere.

4. Insulated supply and return pipes. We'll use water as the medium because it's cheap, easily replenished, doesn't require high pressure, and crucially, can take full advantage of the thermosiphon principle. We'll use anti-freeze additives as required, of course.

5. Small PV panel at ground level, powering:

6. A heat exchanger and fan in the target room to be cooled.

End result: a 100% free energy cooling system with variable cooling capacity (altitude).

7. Red flashing hazard warning lights for aircraft appropriately spaced on the downfeed.

8. Local air traffic control regulatory approval for parking your balloon in their sky.

9. Balloon to be radar visible.

10. Planning permission for a structure to tether the balloon.

11. All fixtures and fittings to be in conformance with aeronautical regulations and to be failsafe.

Go for it IMHO.

Try using a tracking solar reflector as a compressor to heat up a small container of refrigerant fluid which will expand to high pressure and perform just like a fridge. Additional pipework would be no problem for all you engineers. The biggest hurdle would be to get enough mirrors around the world to reflect the sun's energy when it has inconveniently decided to shine on other parts of the world at night.

Of course it is, but we're in the market for crazy ideas here

OK, here's mine then:

Cool your house using the Troposphere!

It's only ~2KM away from where we are, and down to ~17c at that point, and surely thermal buoyancy will help lower the total energy cost of the complete round-trip, no?

Not enough cooling? just send your heat exchanger closer to the Tropopause (~20KM) where the air is now down to around -50c!

Here's the basic concept behind this idea:

1. Balloon - to provide the system with enough lift to get it all up to the Troposphere and keep it all up there. Of course, an anchor will be needed, but we can use our piping for that (more on that later)

2. Small PV panel - atop of the balloon to provide power for a small fan to promote airflow through the heat exchanger located in the Troposphere. The low temps and higher radiation levels should substantially improve upon the STC reference harvest.

3. Heat exchanger with fan - to improve overall system efficiency up in the Troposphere.

4. Insulated supply and return pipes. We'll use water as the medium because it's cheap, easily replenished, doesn't require high pressure, and crucially, can take full advantage of the thermosiphon principle. We'll use anti-freeze additives as required, of course.

5. Small PV panel at ground level, powering:

6. A heat exchanger and fan in the target room to be cooled.

End result: a 100% free energy cooling system with variable cooling capacity (altitude).

7. Red flashing hazard warning lights for aircraft appropriately spaced on the downfeed.

8. Local air traffic control regulatory approval for parking your balloon in their sky.

9. Balloon to be radar visible.

10. Planning permission for a structure to tether the balloon.

11. All fixtures and fittings to be in conformance with aeronautical regulations and to be failsafe.

Go for it IMHO.

All doable

Gentlemen, I don't want to burst your bubble but in this thread we have just designed a pure solar air-conditioner.

Buy it here:-

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/100-solar-air-conditioner_60232772425.html?spm=a2700.7724857.29.332.5DX3kr

Actually that is a hybrid, but nothing to stop the whole lot being powered by PV panels

These guys have real solar (absorption) A/C http://www.solarpanelsplus.com/products/absorption-chillers/

As I've said, it's all been done before

Sunflower

Solar Energy & Electrical Energy

Power (W): 700

Capacity (btu): 240000

addendum:

-looked at the detailed specifications,

-found power consumption cooling 650-770watts, capacity 9,000 btu/h,

= equivalent to a modern conventional aircon.

question: "where's the beef?"

And this is perhaps something for our German cooling specialist who uses fans for fesh air and have a bunch of aircons in his home:

efficient 48 volt DC unit that puts out 16,000 BTUs at 850 watts, giving it an Energy Efficiency Ratio (EER) of 18.8. (Martin Holladay explains that EER is the cooling capacity of the appliance (in Btu/h) at an outdoor temperature of 95°F divided by the current draw of the appliance in watts.)

They added a 45 amp solar charge controller and a 20 amp/hour battery as a buffer for when clouds block the sun. All you have to do is stick it in your window like a regular air conditioner, plug in a thousand watts of solar panels and it will run all day. Add more batteries or add a grid connection power supply and it will run all night. So for $2895 plus a thousand bucks worth of solar panels, you in business.

-one of my cars has 1,350 horsepowers and uses only 4.3 liters of soy milk per 585 kilometers.

-the RPM of the engine at highest torque is 36,329 but needs for lubrication just a tablespoon of slightly salted low fat whipped cream.

-we never buy meat as our dogs are hunting red deer, wildboar, ducks and geese galore.

-our cook is regularly awarded three Michelin stars and she gets daily offers from famous restaurants all over the world.

Cant understand what your above post has something to do with airccons.

One of my tiny reserve pump is now being used by a nabor cause his 120watt pump is "kaput". Now he is more interested in solar

And another guy who is fed up with power outages here wants to use another pump for his well with an adaptor and tested this pump with his mobile genset hahahaha

Naam's post # 824;- "most of your questions are not silly but based on your stubbornness and refusal to acquire some simple basic knowledge" and accept that energy output can never be equal or exceed energy input.

Not knocking George, no way, never, but to think Naam that there's a whole lot of inventors out there in cuckoo land who firmly believe in "over one" efficiency machines.

Seems like many have believed and made machines but just cant quite get it going like it should. Funny about that eh.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE guys lets not "go there" in this forum and pray none of those idiots are watching this.

Again; No ideas thrown into the hat should be dismissed.

Go easy sometimes "gentleman" Naam. smile please.

And this is perhaps something for our German cooling specialist who uses fans for fesh air and have a bunch of aircons in his home:

efficient 48 volt DC unit that puts out 16,000 BTUs at 850 watts, giving it an Energy Efficiency Ratio (EER) of 18.8. (Martin Holladay explains that EER is the cooling capacity of the appliance (in Btu/h) at an outdoor temperature of 95°F divided by the current draw of the appliance in watts.)

They added a 45 amp solar charge controller and a 20 amp/hour battery as a buffer for when clouds block the sun. All you have to do is stick it in your window like a regular air conditioner, plug in a thousand watts of solar panels and it will run all day. Add more batteries or add a grid connection power supply and it will run all night. So for $2895 plus a thousand bucks worth of solar panels, you in business.

George, do you have a link for that A/C unit? 16,000 BTU at 800W is amazingly efficient. Just shy of 3 grand for an aircon is reassuringly expensive.

Cant understand what your above post has something to do with airccons.

i did not expect you to understand

Naam's post # 824;- "most of your questions are not silly but based on your stubbornness and refusal to acquire some simple basic knowledge" and accept that energy output can never be equal or exceed energy input.

Not knocking George, no way, never, but to think Naam that there's a whole lot of inventors out there in cuckoo land who firmly believe in "over one" efficiency machines.

Seems like many have believed and made machines but just cant quite get it going like it should. Funny about that eh.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE guys lets not "go there" in this forum and pray none of those idiots are watching this.

Again; No ideas thrown into the hat should be dismissed.

Go easy sometimes "gentleman" Naam. smile please.

"they" are believing in and trying for "over one" efficiency since a thousand years.

two multiplied by two can never exceed the value four.