Living offgrid with small solar system(s)

[Muhendis]

I thougt so. Thanks for your explanation @crossy.

Back to the cheap chinese micro hydro generator. A guy tested the 5v version and installed it on the inlet of his shower. It seems that there are fine electronics inside. Too much pressure/flow/volt automatic cut off. Too much load also automatic cut off. Disappointing was that the wheel did not spin so smoothly. Perhaps interesting for me to order and to learn from it and also trying to get better performance with a bit diy. Only usd 11.

Sure is that you can get free (led)lighting during a shower

George. It could be that the generator is "cogging" which is to say that each time the magnet passes a coil, any significant current taken from the coil will try to grab the magnet and slow down the rotor. If this is what is happening then the water pressure/flow rate can be increased to minimise the effect. How to do this? Increase the size of the shower head holes and/or increase the head of water. You could also consider upping the size of the supply pipe as well as increaseing the size of the shower head holes.

[George Harmony]

Ok @muhendis. Ill try it after i receive it. Will keep you informed.

@jingjoe, many peltier generators available. Even a three in one type.

While cooking or warming up room generating some electricity.

Application of product: can provide 3V-7V direct current, can be used for 4-6 LED lights (1-3 watt) at the same time. It also can provide lighting in 10-15 square meters room, even 3 rooms at the same time.

[George Harmony]

This hotplate with watercooler consists of some peltiers and can generate up to 100watts. The hotter the better. Im wondering if i can put such a device in a diy solar oven??

[Crossy]

Peltier devices will work 'backwards', apply a temperature differential, get a voltage. Very inefficient.

If you have a decent heat source (stove) and a decent cold source (winter) then they do indeed work well enough to be a practical source of small amounts of power.

[KonaRain]

Led's..I wanted to sell them, but they WERE expensive.. hot water idea!

I am the small cabin, big hill behind me, at latitudes

20..

I would pay for some gas to pump water to make electricity because electricity is more useful than gas haha

My 'cousin' started the hot water Solar co. over here,but I have zero efficiency, so I will buy some new Li On batteries, and find a way to charge them.

someone may buy part of my land, so I can buy a solar panel or two.

Thanks for the ideas..

blessings. .

[IMHO]

This hotplate with watercooler consists of some peltiers and can generate up to 100watts. The hotter the better. Im wondering if i can put such a device in a diy solar oven??

Two things on this idea:

1. If you have solar energy, PV @ ~16-18% efficiency is the smartest way to create electricity from it.

2. Peltiers are a 'heat pump', so when you place them on your solar oven, they're going to cool it down.

[Gary A]

If you want to produce a lot of electricity, you can look at steam powered turbine generators. Since my wife has a lot of trash trees on her farms, I did some research. After I found out they required dry superheated steam, I pretty much lost my enthusiasm. You can easily produce a lot of steam burning wood and charcoal but making superheated steam is a bit more difficult and dangerous.

[Crossy]

If you want to produce a lot of electricity, you can look at steam powered turbine generators. Since my wife has a lot of trash trees on her farms, I did some research. After I found out they required dry superheated steam, I pretty much lost my enthusiasm. You can easily produce a lot of steam burning wood and charcoal but making superheated steam is a bit more difficult and dangerous.

You could try gasification.

http://www.driveonwood.com/

[George Harmony]

Anyone knows? If i do a lot of circulation how much gpm i need to reach 150rpm with this altenator and a pelton setup like the youtube example of that gentleman who started his laptop without a battery inside the laptop.

Basic permanent magnet alternator

12 volt model DC output

It has a 7 magnet rotor inside

800 watts plus.

Features:

Uses Rare Earth Neodymium Magnets

Hand Wound Stator Coils

Computer Balanced

Reaches Over 12V BELOW 150RPM

Good for 12 Volt battery Charging

Bi-Rotational - Will Produce Power in Both Directions

Anti-Cogging Low Start-up Speeds

Ideal For Low Wind Start-up

Hand Built With 100% Brand New Components (No Used or Rebuilt Parts Here!)

For battery charging

[Crossy]

George. Read and understand this http://www.pumpfundamentals.com/micro-hydro.htm and you'll know all there is to know about micro-hydro.

Then you can tell us what you calculate it to be.

BUT.

You really need to start with your energy source (water) and what head and flow rate is available to you. Then you can design a turbine (or simple water-wheel) to make best use of that energy source.

[Jing Joe]

Gentlemen. if I had my time all over again I'd take a year to find this kind of location to live a life of living Off grid not just with solar but this also:-

A side of a mountain facing the sun.(North here in Oz) Has a spring near the top?? with "just enough flow" but perpetual. I would excavate and bury a large shipping container or three. Well covered in bitumen against rust. All the right holes for doors, windows, drainage and vents.etc.

If because of the terrain, the road access, the front apron, the view, wind generator, solar panel exposure, the general view etc meant it was not too near the hydro box at the lower end of the water turbine, so be it.

The house water could be pumped up hill with a ram pump, the power wires made long enough and a pull wire or turn rod say 50 plus metres long could shut down the turbine/s to save bearings. Temperature stability year round not like temperature challenges that George seems desperately facing at the moment. (Thailand has just had the worst in 60 ?? years) here in Oz there would be no winter temperature challenges either. Low bush fire risk, no painting. Provided windows faced/placed to suit a view, you wouldn't know it was underground. Any condensation issues could be faced as needed.

Any short fall of some of the ideal needs list above could be accepted, got around or tolerated. Some minimal water storage could be contemplated like some battery storage too. 240V ac power could be possible from a governed AC hydro generator or inverter from additional DC generator. Welding would be on the agenda and even clothes dryer power category too.

All this and any other ideas from the group would only add to the bliss. You would all be invited to stay and drool, but i still wouldn't tell Naam where I kept all the savings. :-)

Edited May 21, 2016 by Jing Joe

[Gary A]

Turbines are much more efficient and replaced paddle wheels many years ago. I went to a green power show some years ago and they had a water turbine generator that was actually designed to go into concrete irrigation canals. It was about two feet in diameter. I don't remember the output but it was a lot. Water flowed about 7 months a year. It didn't impede the water flow so no one cared about the installation. What water didn't go through the turbine went over the top of the mini dam.

[Jing Joe]

Re washing machines; the first ones I remember had the agitator and a pair of roller wringers over the top.

Then sometime later came the typical twin tub wash and spin dry which may have been a small diameter spinner but had the very fast and adequate series/universal brush motor.

BUT did any of you see the clever invention somewhere between the advent of these two above in the form of a spin dry tub with an impeller underneath and it ran from the normal town water pressure?

It was slower and necessarily a bit larger in diameter than the twin tub. Just a bit like the micro generator that's topical at the moment.

I'm guessing there might not have been many fast 240v fast brush motors at the time of this water powered spin dryer and reckon there will be no results on Google either.

This old design might inspire something. Just saying.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Jing Joe

[Jing Joe]

Re washing machines; the first ones I remember had the agitator and a pair of roller wringers over the top.

Then sometime later came the typical twin tub wash and spin dry which may have been a small diameter spinner but had the very fast and adequate series/universal brush motor.

BUT did any of you see the clever invention somewhere between the advent of these two above in the form of a spin dry tub with an impeller underneath and it ran from the normal town water pressure?

It was slower and necessarily a bit larger in diameter than the twin tub. Just a bit like the micro generator that's topical at the moment.

I'm guessing there might not have been many fast 240v fast brush motors at the time of this water powered spin dryer and reckon there will be no results on Google either.

This old design might inspire something. Just saying.

Have found what is probably the only reference on Google;-

"I remember a spin dryer my parents, or was it my grand parents, had that was water powered. The garden hose was connected up and the force of the water would spin a big perforated drum up pretty fast.

It did a pretty good job.

[George Harmony]

Found this example.

Typical municipal water pressure is between 40 and 80 psi, the equivalent of 92 to 185 feet of head. That is definitely enough for a hydro system. And if available flow is about 10 gallons per minute, say at the bathtub faucet, then surely there must be some real power available whenever we turn on our faucets.

However, if we use our example power formula with a common pressure of 60 psi (138 feet), we get a projected power output of about 138 watts.

138 ft. × 10 gpm ÷ 10 derate = 138 W × 24 hrs.

= 3,312 Wh per day

That 3.3 kWh per day is somethingbut not a lot. An average American household uses about 30 kWh per day, so would need nine of these units.

Ok. But, according to specialists and what @crossy also between the lines trying to inform me is that hydro power is most effective when you have a natural head/flow and not with motorised pressure whether its solar powered or grid power. Example of my nabor who is pumping around 24hours for his fishpond with a 120watt pump he sure loose pressure and thus energy when he connect a micro hydro turbine. He thus can better use for example a 100watt pump and charge a battery with a charger Thats why i understand after reading some articles and asking around. Also combination of surplus solar power and hydro is not effective, for example if during peak hours battery bank is already full. Most efficient for those who do not have natural head/flow/water is solar and/or wind energy. Edited May 21, 2016 by George Harmony

[Naam]

138 ft. × 10 gpm ÷ 10 derate = 138 W × 24 hrs.

= 3,312 Wh per day

here's an example which should cause a rude awakening to wet dreamers:

Germany

electricity cost for 3.3kWh ~€UR 1.05

cost of water plus sewage ~€UR 5.50/m³

generating 3.3kWh requires 54m³ of water costing €UR 297.-

[Muhendis]

Re washing machines; the first ones I remember had the agitator and a pair of roller wringers over the top.

Then sometime later came the typical twin tub wash and spin dry which may have been a small diameter spinner but had the very fast and adequate series/universal brush motor.

BUT did any of you see the clever invention somewhere between the advent of these two above in the form of a spin dry tub with an impeller underneath and it ran from the normal town water pressure?

It was slower and necessarily a bit larger in diameter than the twin tub. Just a bit like the micro generator that's topical at the moment.

I'm guessing there might not have been many fast 240v fast brush motors at the time of this water powered spin dryer and reckon there will be no results on Google either.

This old design might inspire something. Just saying.

Heavens Jing Joe. You are really really old...........

[George Harmony]

But, that cheap chinese micro hydro toy is fun in case you go shower during power outage open the shower crane and a lamp is burning ???

or use the motor and buildin electronics for this diy:

:)

Edited May 21, 2016 by George Harmony

[Jing Joe]

Re washing machines; the first ones I remember had the agitator and a pair of roller wringers over the top.

Heavens Jing Joe. You are really really old...........

Yup Muhendis. As I've said before, my Thai wife cuts my hair and reckons the grey sideburns make me look old but I reckon its wisdom.

That's why Naam is even more wise. :-)

Most of you guys would know Naam in Thai means water and mine is kangaroo. OLD MAN kangaroo eh. :-)

Naam worked out Muhendis means engineer, and Crossy is anything but cross, could mean Christian?

George; Now that's some alternator. Reckon its Chinese and could be bought much cheaper direct? No cogging could be great for wind power.

George; are you permanent enough there to contemplate living underground for temperature stability?

How about the shipping container I dreamed of underground on the side of a mountain in my post above?

How shallow is the water table? This could be a bonus for temp stability but you would have to stop the container floating as in below-ground swimming pools if it rains heavily during installation but before it is filled.

If there was no water table challenge, two containers on top of each other could be a good start. One below ground and the other above.

Take advantage of the cooler lower one to fan-circulate the stratified air up to the top one. Food for thought? George in Indo and KonaRain in Hawaii too?

Muhendis; do you hear some wisdom coming from this "Really Old" guy? Hope so. :-)

Edited May 21, 2016 by Jing Joe

[Jing Joe]

Just discovered how to get back to normal typing format here, The top left icon "BB mode" needed clicking.

George, indeed all guys, there is another line of investigation re alternative power;

Since the peltier effect has been raised many times, how about this;-

The basics involve production of voltage from dissimilar junctions and dissimilar temperatures, (and the reverse applies).

How about having some modern thermo electric devices connected electrically in series, attach a common heat plate to one side of them all and have this exposed not just to ambient hot Indo air but the sun also.

Likewise have a common cold side plate of them all and "ingeniously" making contact with the cool underground temperatures, even into a water table.

Before anyone scoffs at the second half of this suggestion, do you know about the "heat tube" ? It was designed about a hundred or more years ago and has the conductivity of gold.

Basically; Two concentric tubes, typically about 50mm dia outer, about 2 to 7 metres long, appropriately sealed and contain appropriate liquid/gasses to suit the temperatures involved. Very simple and VERY effective. The latent heat of change in the gas/liquids transfers heat/cold from one end to the other with the equivalent specific heat of gold. This has been used in modern times in different applications, and maybe in computer heat extraction? not sure about this.

Q ---If the estimated efficiency of thermo electric devices is 50% for cooling, how about for producing power?

The well insulated upper end of the heat tube end and thermo devices could be a metre above ground to facilitate sun/air temperature input.

You guys know I'm NOT into ridiculous over-one stuff and neither is this but anyone with the time and desire for alternative energy could think about this?

Edited May 21, 2016 by Jing Joe

[Muhendis]

But, that cheap chinese micro hydro toy is fun in case you go shower during power outage open the shower crane and a lamp is burning ???

or use the motor and buildin electronics for this diy:

George. This vertical axis wind turbine (VAWT) is definitely not the best way to go.

1. It will only capture wind on one third of its cycle.
2. The wind will slow down the machine on the return side.

There are some advantages in the VAWT which include simplicity of design and easy access to the turbine and bearings but these advantages do not outweigh the efficiency in my opinion.

There have been many improvements in the design of VAWTs all of them high technology in nature but the basic problems still remain.

If you want to get into wind power then you should go for the horizontal axis wind turbine (HAWT). With that type of machine all blades receive power at the same rate and you could expect to get a 59.3% conversion of wind energy to turning power. You might like to look up Betz who did the original calculations which became yet another law of physics.

[Jing Joe]

Just discovered how to get back to normal typing format here, The top left icon "BB mode" needed clicking.

George, indeed all guys, there is another line of investigation re alternative power;

Since the peltier effect has been raised many times, how about this;-

The basics involve production of voltage from dissimilar junctions and dissimilar temperatures, (and the reverse applies).

How about having some modern thermo electric devices connected electrically in series, attach a common heat plate to one side of them all and have this exposed not just to ambient hot Indo air but the sun also.

Likewise have a common cold side plate of them all and "ingeniously" making contact with the cool underground temperatures, even into a water table.

Before anyone scoffs at the second half of this suggestion, do you know about the "heat tube" ? It was designed about a hundred or more years ago and has the conductivity of gold.

Basically; Two concentric tubes, typically about 50mm dia outer, about 2 to 7 metres long, appropriately sealed and contain appropriate liquid/gasses to suit the temperatures involved. Very simple and VERY effective. The latent heat of change in the gas/liquids transfers heat/cold from one end to the other with the equivalent specific heat of gold. This has been used in modern times in different applications, and maybe in computer heat extraction? not sure about this.

Q ---If the estimated efficiency of thermo electric devices is 50% for cooling, how about for producing power?

The well insulated upper end of the heat tube end and thermo devices could be a metre above ground to facilitate sun/air temperature input.

You guys know I'm NOT into ridiculous over-one stuff and neither is this but anyone with the time and desire for alternative energy could think about this?

And I didnt really need to add that prelim investigations would start with a probe hole x metres deep and measuring the temps at varying depths, then measure black plate temps in the sun, and get an idea of day ambient and yes even night ambients. Then go to the characteristics/specs charts for the thermo electric devices and start some calculations. I have no idea of sub-surface temps that George has there.

Consideration into the glazing or not of the hot plate for best sun use could depend on the abilities to maintain balance in the obverse cooling department for operating within the devices limits. It would safely revert to the cool side with no sun.

This system could compete with the efficiency of solar panels, also not just relying on direct sun and be much cheaper and possibly produce some power at night.

Another possibility;- the cool side could just be a simple wet-curtain type evaporation and the unit be on the roof for max sun on the hot side.

Again; evaporative rates apply having been discussed previously.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Jing Joe

[Crossy]

PV panels would be less hassle, cheaper and more efficient. But not nearly so much fun

The problem with Peltier devices and Stirling engines is that they need a constant supply of cold (or at least cool). They work really well in cold environments using waste heat from alternative heat sources and winter as the supply of coldness.

Part 1 of the how to make it series.

[Crossy]

And here http://www.waterwheelfactory.com/hptable.htm should be the starting point for any micro-hydro system.

[George Harmony]

@jingjoe,

Is this what you mean? Stripping a used washing machine and you have an efficient altenator.

Added:

If you want to get into wind power then you should go for the horizontal axis wind turbine (HAWT).

Also not so difficult for diy....thanks for thr tip.

Edited May 22, 2016 by George Harmony

[Jing Joe]

@jingjoe,

Is this what you mean? Stripping a used washing machine and you have an efficient altenator.

Added:

If you want to get into wind power then you should go for the horizontal axis wind turbine (HAWT).

Also not so difficult for diy....thanks for the tip.

I don't think I would have greatly encouraged using a F&P motor as an alternator even though there is LOTS out there about this.

Firstly they aren't rare earth magnets. Or at least they weren't a few years ago. There are a few different size/styles of motors so do your research. You would have to check out the viability of the bearings for a much longer duty cycle than needed/designed in a washing machine. Sure, they could be swapped for better ones if needed.

There are those who have been replacing the magnets with rare earth. I think there is not much problem with start-up cogging effect or running noise especially because they are 3 phase. Single phase wind generators for example Hummer brand, are an absolute dismal failure yet they claim to be quiet.

Those who have done this mod have been quite ingenuous and good luck to them both in hydro and wind power..

Agree horizontal axle wind generator but more attention is needed in design but worth it. Eg. yaw bearing, faster blades needing balancing, connecting wire down the centre rather than slip ring connection, automatic protection against self destruction.

Wind is exciting, its dynamic, moving ah yes, and so could the very passive geothermal peltier devices.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Jing Joe

[George Harmony]

For that cheap chinese hydroy toy it would be fun to make a small dye windturbine.

If i decide also to go for windturbine enbaling me to charge a battery bank i can buy this here for only 330usd incl. Chargecontroller. Is this expensive or ok??

[Muhendis]

George. Why are you thinking of only making electrickery with your wind turbine. Cut out the middle man and drive your pump direct from the wind. Folks have been doing just that for years. By increasing the number of blades you will increase the torque but decrease the speed. All you have to do is arrange to pump water only on windy days.

[George Harmony]

George. Why are you thinking of only making electrickery with your wind turbine.

If i see the price of above windturbine comparing to a solar array+controller perhaps its effective to have both. I think there is more wind in the evening here rather than during solar peakhours. So perhaps a batterybank will continiously be charged by solar and windturbine also during evening hours. Perhaps then also less cycles thus longer lifetime battery ...

..

Edited May 22, 2016 by George Harmony

[Jing Joe]

George. Why are you thinking of only making electrickery with your wind turbine. Cut out the middle man and drive your pump direct from the wind. Folks have been doing just that for years. By increasing the number of blades you will increase the torque but decrease the speed. All you have to do is arrange to pump water only on windy days.

M Do you realize its been George's Dutch ancestry that probably taught the world how to pump with windmills?

Not sure of the reason George wants to pump water but disregarding inefficiency of a vertical axis machine and focusing on reliability and simplicity, why not directly drive a gear pump? The can produce a good bit of pressure too but not particularly good at self priming. ?? But it could be just underwater on a tethered floating polystyrene pontoon on his large lagoon. Clear of trees for best wind. A screen protecting the inlet?? Maintenance? Ropes to edge not anchors? Four Multi-pod floats for stability?

Just thinking.