Living offgrid with small solar system(s)

[Jing Joe]

For that cheap Chinese hydro toy it would be fun to make a small dye wind turbine.

If i decide also to go for wind turbine enabling me to charge a battery bank i can buy this here for only 330usd incl. Charge controller. Is this expensive or ok??

George;- Is this the same unit with a different badge/brand?

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/400W-wind-turbine-generator-600w-max-CE-certification-wind-power-generator-and-wind-controller-5-blades/32363214581.html?spm=2114.40010508.4.125.HdWRKo

you have to be very careful how it protects against over speed. Simple designs like this can mean big troubles. Tell me about it. Been there done that with a $1000 "Air 403" brand.

This one (URL) boasts; # 10. Blades with the ability of automatically stall protection under strong wind.

This usually means the blades purposely distort and become aerodynamically unproductive at very high speed and slow down only to get up again and so;- BEWARE the sound of the blade tips breaking the sound barrier will repeatedly wake the dead within 400 metres.

Before this situation occurs you might be lucky to notice the weather getting up and apply an electric brake which usually is a shorting switch right across the output. But to apply this suddenly to a dead stop in a howling wind could cause much damage but a dummy load resistor (say 100watt?? off the top of the head) can be an intermediate step to slow it down then switch the full brake on. The controller in the picture doesn't seems to have a brake switch so you could provide that two stage set up yourself. The speeds this design can achieve are almost frightening George, and then that action happens. Some yacht designs suggest you pull on a rope attached to the tail and turn out of the wind.

The old water pumping wind mills had many blades and in high winds the blades interfered with each other and avoided over-speed but they also had an offset head causing the pressure on the fan to turn the fan sideways to the tail. (The vertical yaw bearing and horizontal fan axle are not in line with the wind path)

George; They advertise this as "quiet". Maybe yes in the usual working range but I don't trust Chinese manufacturers one bit after VERY bitter noise experiences with Hummer brand. So when I looked further at other brands and reports from other customers, there are more well known brands that lie too.

Probably the only way is a design that either changes blade pitch or simpler and more common;- furls the fan to the tail angle with the offset as above.

Because of the lies they tell, I wouldn't dare advise on a brand. Really look closely for reviews by owners. The web sites are jammed full of the manufacturers own self promotion.

Just found this quote even with a 3phase, rare earth magnet w/g. "If the xxx brand is to be mounted on a yacht/boat care should be taken where to position it, as the xxx brand gen will always produce a very slight magnetic cogging vibration when rotating and an electrical vibration whilst charging. This noise will obviously be greatly amplified if mounted on a very hollow section of a yacht/boat."

They speak the truth when they added; "and an electrical vibration whilst charging". Yes, the cogging is emphasized with current in the coils.

Single phase is asking for noise and you might even go back and take a closer look at the FP washing machine motor design, think about blade choices and over speed protection. Unexpected high winds are very real and very frightening. Ask me.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Jing Joe

[Muhendis]

Jing Joe.

Single phase? Three phase? This is utter tripe once again from sales and marketing who have absolutely no idea that the number of phases is totally irrelevant in this situation. They are still thinking about home power from the city supply company. How many phases there are get converted to DC so the more phases the merrier, filtering is easier. I have seven phases on mine. My sympathies are with you Jing Joe for having a single phase wind cog.

[George Harmony]

The controller in the picture doesn't seems to have a brake switch

Ive never had a windturbine. I thought the windturbine controller does it all. If not, i wont buy it.

Is there a motor/dynamo/altenator that regulates the output itself?? For example the more speed the more amps but constant output e.g. 14 volt enabling to charge a 12v battery??

Edited May 22, 2016 by George Harmony

[George Harmony]

This guy charge a battery without a chargecontroller only with rectifier ac-dc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dD09L5NFhVE

[Jing Joe]

Jing Joe.

Single phase? Three phase? This is utter tripe once again from sales and marketing who have absolutely no idea that the number of phases is totally irrelevant in this situation. They are still thinking about home power from the city supply company. How many phases there are get converted to DC so the more phases the merrier, filtering is easier. I have seven phases on mine. My sympathies are with you Jing Joe for having a single phase wind cog.

Just a quickie M. I don't think Its the manufacturers who promote multi phase, they probably are keeping quiet about their previous single phase designs or what else I'm not sure.

It is the users who discover that the simplicity of single phase brings with it the lumpiness of cogging, particularly when charge current is flowing.

Its exactly as you said M ; "the more the merrier" and surely puts the frequency of the vibrations above the resonant frequencies of poles and any other infrastructure that can vibrate. There's noise (single phase) all through the vibration frequency spectrum but the infrastructure resonance finds/hits the right note in at least one spot.

Hummer brand owners of single phase have gone to elaborate ends to dampen resonant poles. (One day I'll privately send you a photo of my attempts if that's OK with you). Be it the steel poles they supply or very substantial wooden poles, the incredible vibrations can be felt with the hand and heard 300 metres away.

I saw somewhere how some designs have a different number of magnets to poles in some designs to combat this. Haven't yet looked into this.

I understand about more phases equals more diodes, higher ripple frequency and easier filtering.

Any marketing hype by the likes of Hummer is not about phases, and goodness knows what they are saying about any new designs if they are multi phase. Its their "award winning" hype about being quiet and general design that is so deceptive. I actually give them credit for no misplaced thinking about " 3 phase home power from city power supply companies".

You might need to see/hear a single phase to appreciate more of my drift. Maybe?

Edited May 22, 2016 by Jing Joe

[Crossy]

This guy charge a battery without a chargecontroller only with rectifier ac-dc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dD09L5NFhVE

Nothing wrong with doing that. Until the battery is full at which point it will start to lose fluid by electrolysis and get hot (even boil).

Simplistically, all the charge controller does is prevent over-charging by disconnecting (or reducing to trickle) the charge when the battery is full.

[Muhendis]

A wind turbine charge controller does a similar job to the solar charge controller however, there are some differences which make it incompatible with the solar charge controller. The first difference is the input voltage range. When there is only a little wind you still would like an output from your wind turbine so at low speed there will be enough to trickle charge you battery. As the wind gets stronger so the turbine output voltage increases and there is more power available. If you don't use this power then the turbine output voltage will be high. The turbine charge controller has to be able to withstand this high voltage.

It would be really nice if the wind maintained constant velocity and direction but since it inconveniently chooses to be less than helpful in this respect we have to figure out how to fool the turbine into thinking that the wind has constant velocity. The monster megawatt turbines do this by blade pitch control. For the home turbine user there is a trend towards the furling method by which the turbine blades automatically get twisted away from the wind when it blows too strong. The cheap n' cheerful turbines don't have any mechanical control and so need to have some electronic load control to prevent the turbine from going too fast. Remember that when you take current from a turbine coil the magnet which it is whizzing past will try to grab it and so control the speed. This is ok so long as the coils and the controller don't become overheated. There are instances when the turbine needs to be braked for various reasons (maintenance for example). This is achieved by placing a short circuit across the output so that the magnetic flux generated in the coils will be high enough to prevent movement of the turbine.

[George Harmony]

Thanks for the replies. I read also that there chargecotrollers wich can be used for solar and wind like mornigstar tristar 45.

Another question. If i have a 12v dc fan motor of 15watt. Does it automaticly means that with enough rpm i can generate 12v 15w???

Think i try to make like this as a learning process and use the motor of that cheap chinese hydro generator

http://www.newphysicist.com/how-to-make-mini-wind-turbine/

[Muhendis]

George. To achieve 800 Watts I think your turbine blades will need to be not less than 60 cm each. The maximum size is dependent on local wind conditions. Also, assuming not trees etc. height above the ground will have a marked effect on the amount of wind available. Wind loses its velocity as it gets nearer to ground level.

[George Harmony]

George. Why are you thinking of only making electrickery with your wind turbine. Cut out the middle man and drive your pump direct from the wind. Folks have been doing just that for years. By increasing the number of blades you will increase the torque but decrease the speed. All you have to do is arrange to pump water only on windy days.

Here is an example of a well thought pump driven by the wind with anti storm gear.

[Muhendis]

George. Why are you thinking of only making electrickery with your wind turbine. Cut out the middle man and drive your pump direct from the wind. Folks have been doing just that for years. By increasing the number of blades you will increase the torque but decrease the speed. All you have to do is arrange to pump water only on windy days.

Here is an example of a well thought pump driven by the wind with anti storm gear.

Like it George. Pity we can't see how the "anti storm gear" works but it's given me an idea............

[KonaRain]

Gentlemen. if I had my time all over again I'd take a year to find this kind of location to live a life of living Off grid not just with solar but this also:-

A side of a mountain facing the sun.(North here in Oz) Has a spring near the top?? with "just enough flow" but perpetual. I would excavate and bury a large shipping container or three. Well covered in bitumen against rust. All the right holes for doors, windows, drainage and vents.etc.

If because of the terrain, the road access, the front apron, the view, wind generator, solar panel exposure, the general view etc meant it was not too near the hydro box at the lower end of the water turbine, so be it.

The house water could be pumped up hill with a ram pump, the power wires made long enough and a pull wire or turn rod say 50 plus metres long could shut down the turbine/s to save bearings. Temperature stability year round not like temperature challenges that George seems desperately facing at the moment. (Thailand has just had the worst in 60 ?? years) here in Oz there would be no winter temperature challenges either. Low bush fire risk, no painting. Provided windows faced/placed to suit a view, you wouldn't know it was underground. Any condensation issues could be faced as needed.

Any short fall of some of the ideal needs list above could be accepted, got around or tolerated. Some minimal water storage could be contemplated like some battery storage too. 240V ac power could be possible from a governed AC hydro generator or inverter

I can't load the bandwidth, but YouTube has 'pre fab hobbit house' video.

This thread is great for curated energy video stuff.

Stirling engine' etc.

Aloha

[KonaRain]

Still reading..

Stripping a 90's car is a good place to find alternator. .

[KonaRain]

Solar panels are getting cheap..

Put 'em up!!

[George Harmony]

Look what can happen if you dont put a break system for your windturbine

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-YJuFvjtM0s

[George Harmony]

i thought of generating electricity with hydro generators while pumping around and its not worth it.

BUT, when you have aircons perhaps its wise to do this. Windturbine spinning by the aircon compressor

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pwE3UlSmTh8

[Crossy]

i thought of generating electricity with hydro generators while pumping around and its not worth it.

BUT, when you have aircons perhaps its wise to do this. Windturbine spinning by the aircon compressor

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pwE3UlSmTh8

Have you read the comments?

Nowhere does he state how much additional stress is being put on the aircon unit by having the power recovery device fitted.

200W recovered, great, but if the A/C uses an extra 250W ...

It could actually work, but there are no energy test results, he just says it does not affect the A/C in any way. I need to see some proof of this.

Apparently didn't sell many, website is offline (I wanted to check the price $799 is quoted in the comments).

Sooo, assuming A/C running 24/7 @ 30% duty cycle and 200W recovered from the add on.

That's 200Wh * 30% = 60Watt hours per hour or 1.4 kWh per day @ 4.2 Baht per kWh that's about 6 Baht per day recovered energy.

Let's say it costs 799*30 Baht = 24,000

Payback period 24,000/6 = 4000 days = Just under 11 years

By contrast - 24,000 Baht will buy you about 500W of grid-tie solar, 3 units of power generated per day on average with no additional loading on your A/C. Which is better value?

[Naam]

i thought of generating electricity with hydro generators while pumping around and its not worth it.

BUT, when you have aircons perhaps its wise to do this. Windturbine spinning by the aircon compressor

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pwE3UlSmTh8

This is a wind turbine used to capture the waste air off of your AC compressor outside your home.

an ignorant assumption. hampering the airflow of a compressor/condenser unit by driving a wind turbine reduces cooling capacity, i.e. using up energy on one side to gain energy on the other side.

note: there is no such thing like "waste air" at a cc unit but a lot of wasted heat energy. using this energy to heat up a medium (e.g. water) who's temperature is lower than the ambient air temperature is gaining energy out of the waste. i am doing that since years by cooling my pool area aircon unit (48k btu/h) with pool water and heating up the water at the same time. a problem was only to find a qualified aircon company who modified a unit according to my technical design (see photo). since installation of solar roof panels heating not required but system used to enhance cooling capacity when cooling pool area.

[George Harmony]

Ive posted about using a motorbyke as a generator. Some of you are sceptical about this. Someone told me that he uses a 150w inverter connected to the regulator/rectifier thus not to the 4-5ah battery.

If doing this,are there (negative) consequences???

[Crossy]

Small motorcycle generators are intended to run the lights (50W or so), power the electronics and charge the battery.

Pulling 150W continuously is likely putting it on (or over) its design limits with associated detriment upon its life.

You'll probably get away with it, but then again you may not ...

[Muhendis]

Small motorcycle generators are intended to run the lights (50W or so), power the electronics and charge the battery.

Pulling 150W continuously is likely putting it on (or over) its design limits with associated detriment upon its life.

You'll probably get away with it, but then again you may not ...

In addition to wot 'ee said, motor cycle generators are designed to be cooled by a draught caused the shape of the revolving bits and also when the whole machine is moving as they generally have a habit of doing here in Thailand. Using it as a stationary generator will probably cause it to get hot. Taking from it more than its design power will definitely cause it to get hot. The limit is then MTBF (mean time before failure). Have fun George........Go for it.

[George Harmony]

Another guy uses relay and capacitors. Like this:

1st pict = normal circuit

2nd pict = added relay and capacitor.

He claims that he can load much more through the battery. If this is the case then can such a setup also being used in a solar system or not???

Why im wanting to know about motorbikes as genset. The electric crisis here is a big problem. Many people cant afford solar systems or generators. But many people have a motorbyke to go to their work. A farang who do a lot of social work in villages asked me what is the cheapest way to generate electricity for a village house. I thought, a motorbyke .....

Info electric crisis sumatera: http://jakartaglobe.beritasatu.com/featured-2/north-sumatra-power-cuts-spark-tensions/

[Muhendis]

Another guy uses relay and capacitors. Like this:

1st pict = normal circuit

2nd pict = added relay and capacitor.

He claims that he can load much more through the battery. If this is the case then can such a setup also being used in a solar system or not???

Why im wanting to know about motorbikes as genset. The electric crisis here is a big problem. Many people cant afford solar systems or generators. But many people have a motorbyke to go to their work. A farang who do a lot of social work in villages asked me what is the cheapest way to generate electricity for a village house. I thought, a motorbyke .....

Info electric crisis sumatera: http://jakartaglobe.beritasatu.com/featured-2/north-sumatra-power-cuts-spark-tensions/

The answer that that George is yes. Now here come the get out clauses.

1. By charging the non-supercapacitor you can supply very short busts of higher power when needed as in bass woofer sound
2. If the generator is used to trickle charge a smallish battery then it would be the battery rather than the generator which supplies the power (for a time).
3. If all other electrical bits on the motorcycle are disabled then there will be more power available to do other things.

More information regarding the m/c generator power and load power is required.

[George Harmony]

For for example village huts/houses 4 led lamps of 7 watts and a fan is i think enough in case of power outage. If they use led lamps 220 volts and one or two fans of 15-20watt 220volt they can use a relay in case of power outage and use the motorbyke generator. Fridge,ac and others not connected to the inverter.

If the bike does not have watercooling, use bucket of water and a smal hose from above hehehehe.....

Here other example to powerup the loads through the battery:

[Naam]

instead of capacitor and motorcycle generator nonsense why not an investment of less than 50 dollars for a 200W inverter and a small batterie?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-to-AC-220V-Car-Auto-Power-Inverter-Converter-Adapter-Adaptor-200W-USB-LO-/161885080936?hash=item25b11a4d68:g:ZQcAAOSwiwVWQ9wM

[George Harmony]

instead of capacitor and motorcycle generator nonsense why not an investment of less than 50 dollars for a 200W inverter and a small batterie?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-to-AC-220V-Car-Auto-Power-Inverter-Converter-Adapter-Adaptor-200W-USB-LO-/161885080936?hash=item25b11a4d68:g:ZQcAAOSwiwVWQ9wM

Ok. You then also need a battery charger. Frequently power outages here are more than 4 hours. Edited May 26, 2016 by George Harmony

[Muhendis]

instead of capacitor and motorcycle generator nonsense why not an investment of less than 50 dollars for a 200W inverter and a small batterie?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-to-AC-220V-Car-Auto-Power-Inverter-Converter-Adapter-Adaptor-200W-USB-LO-/161885080936?hash=item25b11a4d68:g:ZQcAAOSwiwVWQ9wM

Ok. You then also need a battery charger. Frequently power outages here are more than 4 hours.

I agree with Naam. All that is needed is a battery charger which will keep the batteries on float charge until there is an outage. When that happens the relay which is mains powered will drop off and the normally closed contacts will connect the battery to the secondary lights and fan (all 12v dc). When grid power is restored power returns to the charger and to the relay so that the dc lighting and fan are disconnected and the battery gets recharged. The only down side is the few hundred milliwatts for the relay from the city supply. With a bit of thought and electronics this can be reduced to standby power. The relay would be changed to a 12v relay which would be powered by the battery when the grid power drops out. It would be a sort of emergency lighting system/UPS. Further thoughts I would not use a relay attall but instead would use a MOSFET transistor however that is not likely to be a solution for most people so best KIS.

[George Harmony]

More simple is eliminate the inverter and use 12 volt lamps and fans :)

If i only have this and make hydrogen myself. Its i think then totally free. Transportation free and ofcourse i can use it also as a generator.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kR5rpVdMtXM

[Crossy]

And you make the hydrogen how George?

[George Harmony]

And you make the hydrogen how George?

Solar panel (voltage) perhaps possible