Living offgrid with small solar system(s)

[Crossy]

And you make the hydrogen how George?

Solar panel (voltage) perhaps possible

So use the power from the PV directly, it's more efficient.

[George Harmony]

@crossy the/my teacher is right again :)

[George Harmony]

How about using hydrogen fuel cells instead of batteries??

What is then more effective and in long term more cheaper??

[Naam]

instead of capacitor and motorcycle generator nonsense why not an investment of less than 50 dollars for a 200W inverter and a small batterie?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-to-AC-220V-Car-Auto-Power-Inverter-Converter-Adapter-Adaptor-200W-USB-LO-/161885080936?hash=item25b11a4d68:g:ZQcAAOSwiwVWQ9wM

Ok. You then also need a battery charger. Frequently power outages here are more than 4 hours.

of course one needs a small charger and that no matter whether the outages last one or ten hours (cost 425 Baht).

[Naam]

How about using hydrogen fuel cells instead of batteries??

What is then more effective and in long term more cheaper??

Dear God,

what crime did i commit that you sent George van der Harmony to punish me?

[Muhendis]

How about using hydrogen fuel cells instead of batteries??

What is then more effective and in long term more cheaper??

Dear God,

what crime did i commit that you sent George van der Harmony to punish me?

"Many"

[George Harmony]

instead of capacitor and motorcycle generator nonsense why not an investment of less than 50 dollars for a 200W inverter and a small batterie?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-to-AC-220V-Car-Auto-Power-Inverter-Converter-Adapter-Adaptor-200W-USB-LO-/161885080936?hash=item25b11a4d68:g:ZQcAAOSwiwVWQ9wM

Ok. You then also need a battery charger. Frequently power outages here are more than 4 hours.

of course one needs a small charger and that no matter whether the outages last one or ten hours (cost 425 Baht).

Come on @naam. If only 4 lamps 7watt and 1 fan 15watt, total draw +/- 43 watt times 10 hours .... I think you need a bigger battery. For the example of the poor village house, they perhaps cant afford a deep cycle battery that has that capacity. If only 4 hours power outage how many ah battery you need??

[George Harmony]

So @naam, hydrogen has no future then for residential purposes. If you can make hydrogen yourself perhaps you can also cook with it. Many are in process of developping hydrogen burners for cooking. If you also can generate electric with it.....im wondering then if hydrogen will be the near future power source for residential purposes, a hydrogen powered house, bike and car

Edited May 26, 2016 by George Harmony

[Muhendis]

So @naam, hydrogen has no future then for residential purposes. If you can make hydrogen yourself perhaps you can also cook with it. Many are in process of developping hydrogen burners for cooking. If you also can generate electric with it.....im wondering then if hydrogen will be the near future power source for residential purposes, a hydrogen powered house, bike and car

George. A little information on hydrogen which you might find interesting.

1. It is the smallest molecule and that means it can find its way between larger molecules and therefore it is difficult to contain.
2. If there is a leak which ignites, the flame is invisible.
3. From 1. above compressing it for storage requires quite specialised equipment.
4. Good about it is if you get a leak, it disappears skywards rapidly.

I like the idea of Hydrogen fuel cells primarily because of the abundance of the hydrogen and the ease of use for refueling cars for example. There are problems with the elements within the fuel cell which are slowly being addressed. But they haven't got there yet. When these problems have been overcome there will still be an acceptance issue. Hydrogen is a known city destroyer which, however irrational is, for many,a scary thing to have in your car.

[Muhendis]

Some years ago I did a bit of research into alternative off grid initiatives. Please read the following for some interesting work done by others.

http://www.hfcletter.com/issues/XXII_9/stories/978-1.html

http://www.siei.org/mainpage.html

[George Harmony]

Yup. Ive read it. I think many researches (companies) are in process of developping hydrogen related products. Even highschool students in indonesia are experementing with hydrogen which they generate from water, rest of (drinking) cans and baking soda. They made a burner for cooking.

This company made a portable hydrogen generator and is in process of making this:

the company is also developing the DPS 300, a hydrogen generator that works very similarly to a traditional gas generator or battery-powered uninterruptable power supply. It was developed with help from The United States Agency for International Development (USAID) after SiGNa received Stage 1 funding in 2010. Again, the user simply needs to add water, and the sodium silicide fuel cartridges will instantly produce the hydrogen that allows the fuel cell to create electricity. SiGNa says it is six times cheaper, much lighter, and smaller than existing battery technology. It could power any device that requires less than 250W, including phones, computers, water filters and small fridges. The device is a tough little number that can endure extreme temperatures (-10°C to + 50°C, or 14ºF to 122ºF), which makes it an ideal solution for people living in zones without connection to an electric grid.

http://www.gizmag.com/signa-hydrogen-portable-fuel-cell/22820/

In indonesia i already see gasstations selling hydrogen. If i pass one ill make a pict.

I think hydrogen will have a future.

Edited May 26, 2016 by George Harmony

[George Harmony]

Indonesian highschool girl testing hydrogen cooker

[KonaRain]

My friend worked at Boeing he said forget the air conditioner don't take any energy off the air conditioner in my opinion the Mitsubishi with the HEPA filter is all you need.

This is inspiring, electronic motorcycle @300 kph

Inspiring, I say..

Edited May 26, 2016 by KonaRain

[Jing Joe]

Yup. Ive read it. I think many researches (companies) are in process of developing hydrogen related products. Even high school students in Indonesia are experimenting with hydrogen which they generate from water, rest of (drinking) cans and baking soda. They made a burner for cooking.

This company made a portable hydrogen generator and is in process of making this:

the company is also developing the DPS 300, a hydrogen generator that works very similarly to a traditional gas generator or battery-powered uninterruptable power supply. It was developed with help from The United States Agency for International Development (USAID) after SiGNa received Stage 1 funding in 2010. Again, the user simply needs to add water, and the sodium silicide fuel cartridges will instantly produce the hydrogen that allows the fuel cell to create electricity. SiGNa says it is six times cheaper, much lighter, and smaller than existing battery technology. It could power any device that requires less than 250W, including phones, computers, water filters and small fridges. The device is a tough little number that can endure extreme temperatures (-10°C to + 50°C, or 14ºF to 122ºF), which makes it an ideal solution for people living in zones without connection to an electric grid.

http://www.gizmag.com/signa-hydrogen-portable-fuel-cell/22820/

In Indonesia i already see gas stations selling hydrogen. If i pass one ill make a pict.

I think hydrogen will have a future.

WOW George that's a good web site thanks. Many other things happening there too.

I've posted before about the great design I have for making hydrogen and oxygen combined and made and stored only in small amounts as required. Instead of the powder (sodium silicide (NaSi) they use on the web site, I will use solar or wind direct or stored.

BTW George, don't give up on wind power. Despite my fairly subdued noisy Hummer w/gen, today is very dull for sun power but the light wind is providing enough for the fridge, lights and computer and nothing coming out of the battery = Good feeling.

My theory;- Quiet wind power has 24 hour potential, sun power has 7 hour potential. Either one can be sabotaged but the chances of this happening at the same time are reduced.

.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Jing Joe

[Crossy]

Interesting that my suggestion of gasification (post 1088) went without comment. Its fuel source is renewable (wood) and, importantly for this thread, it's DIYable and safe.

Anyone considered flywheel energy storage? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage to be honest, not something I would be DIYing

Also, for the motorbike-generator crowd. Small "Chonda" (Chinese copy Honda) engines are cheap and readily available, as are car alternators. Add a mount, a couple of pulleys and a drive belt and you have a 12V generator capable of far greater power than the bike and it has an engine which is intended to run reliably whilst stationary (and you don't lose power if someone nips to the shops).

Perfect to back-up your solar / wind when the sun is hiding, there's no wind and the batteries are dead.

Add a gasifier and you have wood fired electricity

[Naam]

instead of capacitor and motorcycle generator nonsense why not an investment of less than 50 dollars for a 200W inverter and a small batterie?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-to-AC-220V-Car-Auto-Power-Inverter-Converter-Adapter-Adaptor-200W-USB-LO-/161885080936?hash=item25b11a4d68:g:ZQcAAOSwiwVWQ9wM

Ok. You then also need a battery charger. Frequently power outages here are more than 4 hours.

of course one needs a small charger and that no matter whether the outages last one or ten hours (cost 425 Baht).

Come on @naam. If only 4 lamps 7watt and 1 fan 15watt, total draw +/- 43 watt times 10 hours .... I think you need a bigger battery. For the example of the poor village house, they perhaps cant afford a deep cycle battery that has that capacity. If only 4 hours power outage how many ah battery you need??

deep cycle batteries are overrated. their price (talking of Thailand) is not justified. personally i am very happy with the performance of my conventional batteries.

slightly off topic... a couple of weeks ago i had to replace the battery of our Mercedes (after 3½ years). asking price Mercedes dealer was THB 23,500 cost of a generic one (which i bought) was 6,250

[Naam]

So @naam, hydrogen has no future then for residential purposes. If you can make hydrogen yourself perhaps you can also cook with it. Many are in process of developping hydrogen burners for cooking. If you also can generate electric with it.....im wondering then if hydrogen will be the near future power source for residential purposes, a hydrogen powered house, bike and car

i am a realist and don't deal with "ifs" George.

[Jing Joe]

So @naam, hydrogen has no future then for residential purposes. If you can make hydrogen yourself perhaps you can also cook with it. Many are in process of developping hydrogen burners for cooking. If you also can generate electric with it.....im wondering then if hydrogen will be the near future power source for residential purposes, a hydrogen powered house, bike and car

i am a realist and don't deal with "ifs" George.

Now come on Naam maybe you didnt give that your usual deepest of open-minded thinking ?

The LPG industry would love your skepticism but times and innovations change. e.g. The incandescent bulb was marvelous but now in Oz you cant buy one easily and LED's are the go.

I got brave 36 years ago to go off grid with wind and solar and never regretted it and hydrogen is only a decision away.

I'm a realist too Naam, and George constantly challenges with a healthy open mind but time might not wait for you Naam with your occasional negativity.

What if George had said more assertively with no "If's" >> You can make hydrogen yourself and you can also cook with it. Many are in process of developing hydrogen burners for cooking. You also can generate electric with it. I'm confident hydrogen will be the near future power source for residential purposes, a hydrogen powered house, bike and car.

Most of the above is happening and innovation will surely pave the way for the rest as George and many confidently believe.

Let us have our Edison-like confidence and determination Naam. Danke.

BTW Happy Friday to Naam and the team.

[George Harmony]

I foresee that one can fill a tank like this bike have or make hydrogen yourself and fill it yourself and runs a hydrogen motor/dynamo/generator or with the same tank cook with it and all this much more powerful than batteries and for cooking cheaper than gas. Bye bye Shell and Exxon ...hehehehehe especially if you do what @jingjoe, muhensdis, imho, crossy and all others who use alternative energy. And when the times comes that with such a hydrogen tube you also can run an ac for days @naam still use his ups hahahahaha joking @naam......

Here is another example from that highschool project re cooking.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yNkV456yc0U

[George Harmony]

@crossy,

Re flywheels.

http://www.climatetechwiki.org/technology/jiqweb-es-fw

[George Harmony]

@naam wrote:

replace the battery of our Mercedes (after 3½ years)

Question re car batteries and solar system. If i connect a solar chargecontroller to a car battery and expect to have daily in the evening only +/- 15% draw will the battery last long, at least 3.5 years like @naam's car battery?? Edited May 27, 2016 by George Harmony

[Naam]

What if George had said more assertively with no "If's" >> You can make hydrogen yourself and you can also cook with it. Many are in process of developing hydrogen burners for cooking. You also can generate electric with it. I'm confident hydrogen will be the near future power source for residential purposes, a hydrogen powered house, bike and car.

my negative attitude wouldn't change because generating as well as handling hydrogen by laymen has its limits. 25 years ago the fuel cell was hailed being the future for cars. look at today's result and tell me how many cars exist powered by fuel cells.

but whatever, happy weekend to all off grid ram pump overunity perpetuum mobile aficionados!

[George Harmony]

Perhaps you can read this also @naam.

Dont be fooled by news stories claiming a new hydrogen fuel source has been developed by the auto makers. Hydrogen fuel has been available to mankind since the stone ages. You just werent told it existed because they havent figured out how to charge you for something that you can produce yourself.

http://presscore.ca/hydrogen-fuel-easily-produced-using-electrolysis-of-water.html

Edited May 27, 2016 by George Harmony

[George Harmony]

Perhaps not off topic. What a great idea. A solar powered bus that can drive over/above cars. Never traffic jam and bye bye to skytrain and metro.

http://www.boredpanda.com/elevated-bus-beijing-china/?image_id=elevated-bus-beijing-china-2b.gif

[Naam]

perhaps you can also read this:

a cheap energy source is methane gas. you can easily produce it by catching the farts and belching of a bovine animal. if you can't afford to keep an animal buy beans, collect your own farts and use it as fuel for a combustion motor which drives a generator to power LED lights. a ram pump waterfall which cools your house and a fuel cell to cook your rice beans will make you grid independent.

[George Harmony]

Thousands british people use already this at home, a biodiesel processor. Price about 2500 pounds.

http://greenfuels.co.uk/products/fuelmatic-commercial-biodiesel-processor/

Edited May 27, 2016 by George Harmony

[George Harmony]

And, i think this is already possible and will soon be available as a commercial product, hydrogen stove for cooking.

In indonesian, air = water.

Edited May 27, 2016 by George Harmony

[Crossy]

So, the AC electrolysis of water produces "HHO" ( really H₂ + O₂), good start. But HHO is highly explosive, it's exactly the right ratio to convert back into water with a satisfying bang.

I assume the "Diferensiator" somehow removes the O₂ (how?) and compresses the H₂ to a useful pressure (how). Or are they relying on the stove jet assembly adding more air to the HHO to stop it exploding and burning instead (possible)?

But we still have a container of HHO at an (even slightly) elevated pressure waiting to become a bomb (maybe after a flashback from the burner).

I can see home-made units blowing up on a regular basis, there's something vital missing from the drawing.

And how is it any better than cooking with the 220V? (That's a trick question, see if you can see why)

EDIT And why are they not using the DC direct from the panels for electrolysis? Produces separate O₂ and H₂ so easier to separate and pure H2 isn't explosive.

[George Harmony]

Using/cooking with gas is here cheaper comparing with above 220v ac hydrogen setup. BUT, indeed with solar its in fact free. Thats why i myself added the text solar panel in above scheme/drawing

[Crossy]

Using/cooking with gas is here cheaper comparing with above 220v ac hydrogen setup. BUT, indeed with solar its in fact free. Thats why i myself added the text solar panel in above scheme/drawing

Ah that explains the different font, and answers my "EDIT"

But no response to the "trick" question which is related to what anyone with off-grid solar wants to do.