Living offgrid with small solar system(s)

[Muhendis]

I noticed an earlier comment from George about the availability of hydrogen in Indonesia. I haven't been able to find much information on this but there are a few Hydrogen production plants there however, they are unclean using fossil fuels for their process. The following article clarifies the problems to a limited extent. I say limited because there is a company in South Wales UK that is producing cars that use fuel cells for their electromotive power. I am a supporter of the idea of using hydrogen which is very abundant, rather than fossil fuels but a better way needs to be found to harvest the hydrogen.

First of all, says John Heywood, professor of mechanical engineering, and director of the Sloan Automotive Research Laboratory, let’s define the word “convert.” A traditional vehicle can be retrofitted with a new hydrogen fuel-cell engine, he says, but it is far too challenging and costly to be worth the effort. “The only cases where a retrofit might make sense is in large diesel vehicles like buses or long-haul trucks,” Heywood says.

But the prospect of changing our gasoline-engine technology so that more and more cars run on hydrogen fuel cells, he says, is more attainable. However, don’t look for them on the road anytime soon.

Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles, effectively run on batteries powered by hydrogen instead of the electric power grid. The fuel cell converts the hydrogen and oxygen in the air into water, and in the process it produces electricity. As long as hydrogen and oxygen keep flowing into the fuel cell, it never goes dead. Hydrogen fuel cells have potential for reducing harmful emissions (depending on how the hydrogen is produced), and will decrease the U.S.’s dependence on foreign petroleum. The disadvantage: in order to put hydrogen-powered cars on the road, Heywood says, we must change not only our vehicle technology, but also our entire fuel supply and fuel distribution system.

Hydrogen fuel cell technology has been around for years but has yet to take root in the marketplace. “A decade ago, hydrogen was getting all the attention, and electricity was barely on the list,” Heywood says. The recent introduction of hybrids and battery-powered cars has proven more successful, he says, largely because the change they represent can happen incrementally, without having to build a entirely new system for storing and delivering fuel. “Hydrogen’s not dead,” he says. “It’s just difficult to think about such a major change.”

There are two ways to make hydrogen fuel, one clean, one not so clean. Electrolyzing water—splitting the hydrogen from the oxygen—produces no direct emissions, but the process requires more energy than it produces. Hydrogen also comes from partly burning methane gas and reacting it with steam, which separates the resulting gas into oxygen and hydrogen. In other words, in order to produce “clean” hydrogen fuel you need to start with fossil fuels (coal or natural gas), which come with the same old climate-compromising problems.

“The critical question is how can we produce hydrogen in efficient ways that also produce low emissions?” he says. “We’ve got a lot of fossil fuels around—more than we think. So we can keep being bad boys and girls, which doesn’t motivate us to make changes.”—Jennifer Sutton

Edited May 27, 2016 by Muhendis

[Naam]

In other words, in order to produce “clean” hydrogen fuel you need to start with fossil fuels (coal or natural gas), which come with the same old climate-compromising problems.

Muhendis,

the flaw in this report is that it was not clearly mentioned that for both procedures the energy input is higher than the energy yield.

[Muhendis]

In other words, in order to produce “clean” hydrogen fuel you need to start with fossil fuels (coal or natural gas), which come with the same old climate-compromising problems.

Muhendis,

the flaw in this report is that it was not clearly mentioned that for both procedures the energy input is higher than the energy yield.

Well spotted Naam. Wait 'til we get space travel then we can harvest billions of tons from the gas giants......

[George Harmony]

If a train can run on this ....why not power a house with it??

http://www.jreast.co.jp/e/press/20060401/

[George Harmony]

And for that poor village houses, in case of power outages more easy is to use this lamp which runs on salt water. Usb fan also possible and charge hp also possible. Every 8 hours refresh the salt water

[George Harmony]

Can anyone explain me why they dont invent a battery which you only have to refresh with saltwater but then with a much bigger capacity, for example 12 volt 50ah.

If you live near the sea its then completely free.

[Naam]

Can anyone explain me why they dont invent a battery which you only have to refresh with saltwater but then with a much bigger capacity, for example 12 volt 50ah.

If you live near the sea its then completely free.

i always thought hallucinogen drugs are illegal in Indonesia. little did i know

[Naam]

If a train can run on this ....why not power a house with it??

http://www.jreast.co.jp/e/press/20060401/

because these trains do not exist!

[Naam]

there's no lamp that runs powered by saltwater. the latter only helps to disintegrate a metal anode which is the actual power source. an age old "science" which was well known more than a century ago.

[Crossy]

@George.

It's very important to realise that every time you convert energy from one form to another there are losses, no system is 100% efficient.

For example:-

Light to electricity (solar PV), about 25% so for every kW of sunshine you get 250W of electricity.

Electricity to chemical and back (FLA battery), pretty good, about 90%. So your 250W input comes out as 225W of usable power.

Electricity to hydrogen (electrolysis), can't find any figures (assume 90%, I'm feeling generous). Hydrogen to electricity (fuel cell), about 60%. So our 250W comes out as 135W of usable power.

So, simple FLA battery vs complicated fuel cell, which would you go for?

By the way, salt water batteries don't just use salt water, they use up the electrode material too, so eventually you have to replace the lot.

[George Harmony]

there's no lamp that runs powered by saltwater. the latter only helps to disintegrate a metal anode which is the actual power source. an age old "science" which was well known more than a century ago.

Yup. The makers of that lamp said the same. If it can charge a handphone, lightup a usb lamp and run a usb fan its wonderful. For me and for everyone who lives in an area with frequent power outages. Today again 4 hours in the morning ?? power outage.

I can even run my cloth hanger spycam/cctv with that hahahaha

[George Harmony]

Will experimment like this guy:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Fr2GgqT70

[Crossy]

I can even run my cloth hanger spycam/cctv with that hahahaha

George, I hope you realise that ending your posts with "hahahaha" is tantamount to laughing AT those trying to assist you.

Personally I'm pretty thick-skinned but it's becoming wearing even for me.

The beer can battery looks a fun experiment, but how practical is it? How much energy do you get before the can and/or the copper wire is used up?

[George Harmony]

I really dont know. In the philipines a young team invented this.

We want to eliminate the sustaining cost in areas that rely on kerosene/battery powered lamps and candles as their main source of lighting. And to provide a more efficient light source for people who use kerosene lamps and candles as an alternative source of lighting. Replace consumable every 6 months! Using SALt lamp 8 hours a day every day, with proper maintenance, will give you an anode lifespan of 6 months. Use this as an alternative light source will prolong the life of your anode for more than a year.

This lamp uses the science behind the "Galvanic cell," the basis for battery-making, changing the electrolytes to a non-toxic, saline solution -- making the entire process safe and harmless.

http://www.salt.ph/

Looks good .

[Crossy]

Indeed it does George. No indication of price yet, or the cost of replacement anodes, but if it's competitive with kerosene lamp running costs I wish them well.

[George Harmony]

A guy here in indonesia sells also such lamps. But no usb plug. He claims that his lamp can burn 20 hours. Price 125.000 idr, about 10usd.

http://jabar.tribunnews.com/2016/03/25/warga-bandung-ciptakan-alat-penghasil-listrik-dari-air-garam?page=2

Think, i order one and see whats inside.

[George Harmony]

That same indonesian engeneer made a prototype of a street lantern. According to him on TV it can burn 3 days.

Added/edited:

i always thought hallucinogen drugs are illegal in Indonesia. little did i know

I dont know what he put inside and why there are 8 holes where you must put saltwater in, but perhaps the more holes (perhaps like cells) the more capacity. Is it possible to connect paralell or in series??? If its powerfull enough i dont mind to fill with salt water e.q. Once a month..... Am i hallucinating ??

Edited May 29, 2016 by George Harmony

[Jing Joe]

So, the AC electrolysis of water produces "HHO" ( really H₂ + O₂), good start. But HHO is highly explosive, it's exactly the right ratio to convert back into water with a satisfying bang.

I assume the "Diferensiator" somehow removes the O₂ (how?) and compresses the H₂ to a useful pressure (how). Or are they relying on the stove jet assembly adding more air to the HHO to stop it exploding and burning instead (possible)?

But we still have a container of HHO at an (even slightly) elevated pressure waiting to become a bomb (maybe after a flashback from the burner).

I can see home-made units blowing up on a regular basis, there's something vital missing from the drawing.

And how is it any better than cooking with the 220V? (That's a trick question, see if you can see why)

EDIT And why are they not using the DC direct from the panels for electrolysis? Produces separate O₂ and H₂ so easier to separate and pure H2 isn't explosive.

Hi Crossy and co. My post many pages back referred to the experiments I saw many years back and they refined their HHo design and really made it safe with a flashback arrestor very close to the end-use flame. They also showed the combined explosion and implosion using a soccer ball filled with HHO ignited with a spark plug.

Just staying with George's basic request for info about "living off grid with solar" surely solar panels driving electrolysis units (yes Crossy) are a simple solution to cooking. BUT;

You are right Crossy, something seems to be missing in the diagram namely a flash back arrestor ??, and I too wonder at the use of the "Diferensiator" and didnt notice a later explanation from George. Almost assuredly not getting rid of the O2 ?

And yes Crossy the H component can/should be captured/isolated with suitable chamber design thereby eliminating most danger and almost too bad about any inefficiencies overall because so long as the source is daytime solar (or battery at night) the end result is the cooking will get done, especially when a long way from gas bottle refilling stations.

An Indian scientist researching this reminded me how so little gas was required for cooking the family meals.

There's so much out there on Google about back-yard HHo (inspiring yet needing refinement) that could give a HHo a bad name (and that diagram is surely courting disaster) and Naam has justly expressed scepticism on some larger scale stuff.

I'm not a great supporter of conspiracy theories yet reckon some major groups with vested interests would suppress progress.

Again I declare my HHo production is only a confident decision away with the gas companies charging about $80 p/a even for gas bottle maintenance fee. That's not much but for those of us who are doing it off grid, the satisfaction is bound up in the great feeling of; "self sufficiency".

Some like to drive Mercedes Benz (just joking Naam) (I admit they are class, yes) and for others self sufficiency is a greater part of a way of life.

I'm with George re his overall thinking of;- "why not". That's what got us to the moon etc etc.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Jing Joe

[Gary A]

Yup. Ive read it. I think many researches (companies) are in process of developping hydrogen related products. Even highschool students in indonesia are experementing with hydrogen which they generate from water, rest of (drinking) cans and baking soda. They made a burner for cooking.

This company made a portable hydrogen generator and is in process of making this:

the company is also developing the DPS 300, a hydrogen generator that works very similarly to a traditional gas generator or battery-powered uninterruptable power supply. It was developed with help from The United States Agency for International Development (USAID) after SiGNa received Stage 1 funding in 2010. Again, the user simply needs to add water, and the sodium silicide fuel cartridges will instantly produce the hydrogen that allows the fuel cell to create electricity. SiGNa says it is six times cheaper, much lighter, and smaller than existing battery technology. It could power any device that requires less than 250W, including phones, computers, water filters and small fridges. The device is a tough little number that can endure extreme temperatures (-10°C to + 50°C, or 14ºF to 122ºF), which makes it an ideal solution for people living in zones without connection to an electric grid.

http://www.gizmag.com/signa-hydrogen-portable-fuel-cell/22820/

In indonesia i already see gasstations selling hydrogen. If i pass one ill make a pict.

I think hydrogen will have a future.

The Danes have a huge surplus of electricity from their offshore wind turbines. Somewhere around 140 percent of their needs. They have a lot of experience working with different kids of gases. Modifying methane and actually pumping hydrogen into household pipelines. Having surplus electricity makes these projects much cheaper but apparently still not very competitive.

[Jing Joe]

Seems like George's heart is also with the life challenges of the have-nots in Indo and good on him.

When the very basics of light, cooking and water supply are a challenge, a bit of techo input can be life changing eh.

Crossy, maybe for some to get away from kerosene lights and into LED's could be great?

[Crossy]

Crossy, maybe for some to get away from kerosene lights and into LED's could be great?

Post #1185

[Gary A]

Many years ago I was a diesel mechanic in the US Navy. Most of our boats were powered with 71 series GM diesels. When one of them started running rough and smoking a lot, you could count on one of the injectors having the tip blown off. The sailors were too lazy to keep the water traps cleaned and emptied. The old civilian I worked with explained to me that a single drop of water caused that. He said that steam is much more powerful than diesel fuel.

From that day forward, I was convinced that some day engines would run at least partially on water. It hasn't happened yet although some diesels do have a water injector that makes for more power.

[George Harmony]

Another indonesian saltwater lamp using magnesium also.

Udara=oxygen

Air garam = salt water.

The magnesium anode must be renewed after 100 burning hours and you can order these seperately. Just emailed them to ask how much their price is for that magnesium anode.

[Jing Joe]

Crossy, maybe for some to get away from kerosene lights and into LED's could be great?

Post #1185

Thanks Crossy, I was referring to that post but when I watched both URL videos just now I realized then your even-more positive meaning. My apologies sir.

They quote the components lasting 6 months. That's pretty good eh.

They mentioned maintenance. Does this mean a flush out so the decomposing electrodes (probably metallic salts?) wash away from the still-active metal?

If the anode and cathode are actually aluminium and copper In that commercial lamp/power supply in one video, whatever the materials, the principle is "as old as those hills" in the video with the village half way up the mountain.

Because of efficient LED's now, It's like redesigning the wheel and everything old is new again. Sure it's low-tech and low-power but it's virtually free energy eh George.

Getting salt versus messy kerosene to remote places sounds great too. Then there are the remote seaside villages too. Great stuff.

Referring to the video, most scrap copper wire has varnish and goes without saying would need to be burnt then dipped hot into water.

For longevity, how about using 500ml plastic containers, lining the inside with 20 ? turns/layers of aluminium foil with a clothes peg holding the adjacent cell's anode on the top edge for contact? A thin smear of Vaseline/grease would inhibit corrosion yet allow contact.

Any advancements out there for the coiled copper anode design?

The whole concept has nice low voltages available to suit LED's, apart from the myriad of 5v USB usages too.

Thanks George, you are actually an investigative inspiration.

Whats news about the magnesium lead?

Edited May 29, 2016 by Jing Joe

[George Harmony]

Just found out that is easy to make an Edison battery with Potassium Hydroxide and water. Per cell 1.2 volt rechargeable for 50 years, according to theory. Anyone made one before ???

There is a solar power specialist who build professional version(s) and use it for powering his own house. He claims that these kind of batteries last longer than his own life.

If this amateuristic bottle version also works and last long why do we need to buy batteries. Is it again a "pottassium wet dream", @naam???

Just google for edison battery.

Edited/added:

Potaasium hydroxide i can buy here for about 3usd per kg.

Edited May 29, 2016 by George Harmony

[Jing Joe]

Can anyone explain me why they don't invent a battery which you only have to refresh with saltwater but then with a much bigger capacity, for example 12 volt 50ah.

If you live near the sea its then completely free.

i always thought hallucinogen drugs are illegal in Indonesia. little did i know

Chin up George. Don't let Naam get you down. With clever design, e.g. enough surface area in each cell, and enough parallel cells to suit, then connect enough in series to give 12v you could start to achieve some AH capacity. But It could be bulky if size didnt matter, and likely to have a higher internal resistance to limit some practical usages. i.e only lower current usage if you want your nominal 12V.

Sand was a crude but convenient spacer in the URL video, so again; clever tight physical design more like a flooded lead acid cell but with purpose-designed spacers could allow decomposing electrodes to self clean in a flooded salt water cell.

During power production and subsequent erosion, it would be in the form of descending ? dissolved particles until further disintegrating when falling chunks eventuate that mustn't short circuit the plates. As in flooded Lead/acid cells, sufficient space below the plates must be provided for the "fallout".

Power density and internal resistance as in secondary cells is the order of the day, but there's a good start. But when will you get the time mate?

I vaguely remember the valency of individual but dissimilar metal electrodes determines the voltage produced so maybe the magnesium line you are chasing will be better than the video you gave us BUT the simple copper and aluminium design (was it?) was a plus in the cheap remote village design.

I'd really like to get one also to see how they "tick". How much and where please George?

Even going forward in this age of Lithium cells for the "have's" who can afford, what you are proposing George is poles apart and actually going backwards in history for the sake of the "have-nots" but that's OK, is not hallucinating, and somehow it feels real good just the same.

Positive imagination; That's how we got to check out planet Pluto, admittedly not with salt water batteries.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Jing Joe

[George Harmony]

I'd really like to get one also to see how they "tick". How much and where please George?

i have already ordered one lamp for 125.000idr = 10usd. If i receive it i will post picts.

About edison batteries:

http://nickel-iron-battery.com/

[Jing Joe]

Just found out that is easy to make an Edison battery with Potassium Hydroxide and water. Per cell 1.2 volt rechargeable for 50 years, according to theory. Anyone made one before ???

There is a solar power specialist who build professional version(s) and use it for powering his own house. He claims that these kind of batteries last longer than his own life.

If this amateuristic bottle version also works and last long why do we need to buy batteries. Is it again a "potassium wet dream", @naam???

Just google for Edison battery.

Edited/added:

Potassium hydroxide i can buy here for about 3usd per kg.

An interesting walk down memory lane.

Old but simple rechargeable secondary cell demonstrating the principle that is a far cry from a professional high capacity version.

Would be interesting to see how he is making such batteries.

Very encouraging article in the URL you posted. Runs rings around Lithium for longevity.

No wonder there was an incentive to shut them down, they lasted too long.

Obviously a very different concept for the innovative salt water primary cell for remote have-nots with no solar panels..

Edited May 29, 2016 by Jing Joe

[George Harmony]

Yeah @jingjoe.

That saltwater "research" is more to have an answer for helping a remote village. First i thought of motorbyke as genset. But then i saw the saltwater products. Perhaps such products is a better and simpeler solution for power outages in villages.

If you are interested i can send you one so you also can see how its constructed.

Just mail me your adress. ?

[Crossy]

We used NiFe cells for fork-lift trucks back in the 70s. Indestructible but very expensive to manufacture (compared with FLA).

Probably not competitive with LiFePO4 now